I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
advance.
Frank

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:42:12 -0700, "Frank103" >
wrote:

>I have heard that pastry chefs

....stirring a bubblin' pot, Frank.


A blind taste test would probably confuse most connoisseurs/people, at
best / least. ONLY your preferences will be satisfactory to you.
Any other opinion will be met with ridicule.

In article <IIKFg.1556$JR5.565@dukeread11>, says...
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank

Not only in cakes and cookies, but in general I switched to non-salted
butter several years back. I can definitely detect the additional salt
in recipes requiring butter where salted is used vs. unsalted.

Frank103 wrote:
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank

With some things you can tell a difference especially if the butter is
the main flavor in the recipe. If it's something like a chocolate cake
though then you probably wouldn't notice the difference. Actually it's
whatever you prefer. I prefer to use salted butter. I like to make
things like croissants and Danish pastry and usually I use salted
butter. I used unsalted butter one time and didn't like it as well.

Frank103 wrote:
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank
I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
amount of salt called for in the recipe

Frank103 wrote:
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank
I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
amount of salt called for in the recipe

Merry wrote:
> Frank103 wrote:
>
>>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
>>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
>>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
>>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
>>advance.
>>Frank
>
> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> amount of salt called for in the recipe


Merry:

My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
people who can tell as well.

Chris

chris wrote:
> Merry wrote:
> > Frank103 wrote:
> >
> >>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> >>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> >>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> >>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> >>advance.
> >>Frank
> >
> > I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> > what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> > amount of salt called for in the recipe
>
>
> Merry:
>
> My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
> time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
> I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
> salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
> people who can tell as well.
>
> Chris
I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
gotta have a cookie...

chris wrote:
> Merry wrote:
> > Frank103 wrote:
> >
> >>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> >>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> >>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> >>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> >>advance.
> >>Frank
> >
> > I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> > what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> > amount of salt called for in the recipe
>
>
> Merry:
>
> My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
> time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
> I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
> salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
> people who can tell as well.
>
> Chris
I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
gotta have a cookie...

Merry wrote:

> Frank103 wrote:
>> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted
>> butter rather than salted butter. When it comes to
>> cakes and cookies, can you actually taste the
>> difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess
>> people who are professionals can but can most others
>> tell the difference? thanks in advance. Frank
>
> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway,
> so why ruin what you are making with more. If I must use
> salted, I reduce the amount of salt called for in the
> recipe

Why is that such a hard thing to do - reduce the salt in
recipes?

I could taste the difference after a while on a low-salt
diet (that was a mistake on the doctor's part), but
otherwise, most people won't spot the difference.
Thankfully, I don't do that low-salt thing now.

If you look at the sodium content of the butter in your
fridge, you can calculate that there's about a teaspoon and
a quarter in the whole pound of butter. The numbers below
are so small that they need to be rounded unless we want a
multi-page treatise.

The usual ratio shown in the nutrition panel is 90 milligrams of
sodium in 14 grams (1 tablespoon) of butter. Sodium
comprises about 40% of the weight of salt. That means
roughly 225 milligrams or .225 grams of salt in a
tablespoon of butter. Those numbers are rounded, but they're
close enough. Extending that ratio to the whole pound
brings you to 32 tablespoons X .225 grams = 7.2 grams salt
per pound of butter. Various reliable sources give rounded
numbers that range from 7 grams salt per pound up to about 9
grams per pound. When you think that 1 ounce = 28 grams,
these are small numbers and a variation like this is
essentially meaningless unless it's a serious health
issue for some critical condition.

A cup of salt weighs about 12 ounces. A teaspoon of salt
(1/48 of a cup) weighs about 1/4 ounce or 7 grams. A pound
of butter is 2 cups volume and 454 grams weight.

A whole pound of butter will have about 1 1/4 teaspoons salt
or about .3 ounces by weight or about 8.8 grams. One
1/4-pound (1/2 cup) stick of butter would have about .3 of a
teaspoon salt or 2.1 grams and a tablespoon would have about
..26 grams. About 1/4 of one gram of salt per tablespoon of
butter; about 0.04 teaspoons, or less than 1/100 of an ounce
of salt.

Now that you know that, you can use salted butter and
compensate as you will for its salt content. My attitude is
not to even count it. In very specific taste tests we did in
my restaurants with recipes made with salted and unsalted
butter, the several people who participated found no
difference in taste or any other characteristic of finished
products. Not even in candies or lemon curd and the like
where you'd expect it to be of consequence.

Pastorio

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 03:45:14 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:

>Why is that such a hard thing to do - reduce the salt in
>recipes?

Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
variable, by both manufacturer and batch.

We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.

-- Larry

On 23 Aug 2006 11:10:33 -0700
"Merry" > wrote:

>
> Frank103 wrote:
> > I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather
> > than salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you
> > actually taste the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I
> > guess people who are professionals can but can most others tell the
> > difference? thanks in advance.
> > Frank
> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> amount of salt called for in the recipe


I'm not making a judgment call on whether or not to use unsalted -
that's gonna vary by recipe and by audience.

But i am going to point out that factories don't make butter by
churning it in the sense that you and i recognize. They whip it up and
then chill it, and the fat crystallizes and rises to the top. They do
this with whole milk - they don't separate out the cream and then work
on that.

Adding the salt during the crystallization process causes more of the
milk solids to cling to the fat as it solidifies. These solids are
responsible for much of the flavor of butter. Salted butter tastes
better on a fresh biscuit not just because it has a little salt in it,
but because it has more flavor in it.

Depending on the recipe and who you're feeding, subtracting a little
salt from the recipe and using salted butter can work fine. But there's
more to the problem than salt.

The salt is also a preservative, as it retards bacterial growth. The
bacteria in butter produces butyric acid, which is nice in infinitesimal
amounts, but nasty in large amounts. Unsalted butter may thus have less
of the whey flavor and more of the butyric acid flavor.

Personally I keep a pound of unsalted butter in the freezer. If a
recipe calls for it, I thaw it out and use it. It's just not that hard
to keep it around.

Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.

Chris


Merryb wrote:
> chris wrote:
>
>>Merry wrote:
>>
>>>Frank103 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
>>>>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
>>>>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
>>>>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
>>>>advance.
>>>>Frank
>>>
>>>I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
>>>what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
>>>amount of salt called for in the recipe
>>
>>
>>Merry:
>>
>>My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
>>time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
>>I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
>>salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
>> people who can tell as well.
>>
>>Chris
>
> I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
> I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
> gotta have a cookie...
>

chris wrote:
> Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
> the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
> margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.
Margarine? What's that?
>
> Chris
>
>
> Merryb wrote:
> > chris wrote:
> >
> >>Merry wrote:
> >>
> >>>Frank103 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> >>>>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> >>>>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> >>>>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> >>>>advance.
> >>>>Frank
> >>>
> >>>I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> >>>what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> >>>amount of salt called for in the recipe
> >>
> >>
> >>Merry:
> >>
> >>My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
> >>time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
> >>I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
> >>salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
> >> people who can tell as well.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >
> > I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
> > I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
> > gotta have a cookie...
> >

Eric Jorgensen wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2006 11:10:33 -0700
> "Merry" > wrote:
>
>> Frank103 wrote:
>>> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather
>>> than salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you
>>> actually taste the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I
>>> guess people who are professionals can but can most others tell the
>>> difference? thanks in advance.
>>> Frank
>> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
>> what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
>> amount of salt called for in the recipe
>
>
> I'm not making a judgment call on whether or not to use unsalted -
> that's gonna vary by recipe and by audience.
>
> But i am going to point out that factories don't make butter by
> churning it in the sense that you and i recognize. They whip it up and
> then chill it, and the fat crystallizes and rises to the top. They do
> this with whole milk - they don't separate out the cream and then work
> on that.
>
> Adding the salt during the crystallization process causes more of the
> milk solids to cling to the fat as it solidifies. These solids are
> responsible for much of the flavor of butter. Salted butter tastes
> better on a fresh biscuit not just because it has a little salt in it,
> but because it has more flavor in it.

And if you want still more of that flavor, keep your butter
in a butter dish on the kitchen counter at home, rather than
in the fridge. It "ripens" and the flavor intensifies.
Obviously, if it's very hot in the kitchen (more than 90°F),
this won't work because the butter liquefies. There's no
issue of spoilage or rancidity if it's used within a couple
weeks.

> Depending on the recipe and who you're feeding, subtracting a little
> salt from the recipe and using salted butter can work fine. But there's
> more to the problem than salt.
>
> The salt is also a preservative, as it retards bacterial growth. The
> bacteria in butter produces butyric acid, which is nice in infinitesimal
> amounts, but nasty in large amounts. Unsalted butter may thus have less
> of the whey flavor and more of the butyric acid flavor.

The amount of salt in salted butter isn't enough to exercise
much of a preservative value. It's a trivial amount compared
to what was done it earlier times when it really was
necessary because of lack of refrigeration and the present
nuisance of rancidity. Butter in colonial America was
heavily salted and had to be "washed" before it could be used.

Butyric acid is found as an ester naturally occurring in
fats and oils. The butyric acid in *refrigerated* unsalted
butter isn't much of a factor until it's been stored a long
time, heading well into rancidity. Much longer than the
usual retail sales cycles. It comprises between 3% and 4% of
butter and doesn't become an issue until hydrolyzed out of
its ester and the free butyric acid appears. It's a familiar
unpleasant, acrid smell and taste found in rancid butter,
Parmesan cheese, vomit and perspiration.

> Personally I keep a pound of unsalted butter in the freezer. If a
> recipe calls for it, I thaw it out and use it. It's just not that hard
> to keep it around.

Agreed.

But I just don't see the value of doing it. Most recipes are
written by recipe writers, not food scientists.

Pastorio

pltrgyst wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 03:45:14 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>> Why is that such a hard thing to do - reduce the salt in
>> recipes?
>
> Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
> variable, by both manufacturer and batch.

Sorry. No, it isn't. There are stringent standards for
ingredients and process for the commercial manufacture of
butter. If you look at the nutrition panels of butter
packages of different brands and different batches, the
numbers are constant. And they're constant because the law
demands that the info be accurate, and because the public
expects butter to taste a certain way and it's this way.
Otherwise they don't buy it.

> We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.

I'm sure that's the case. But there's no good reason that
you've offered.

Pastorio

In article rs.com>,
chris > wrote:

> Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
> the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
> margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.
>
> Chris
>

Amen!

I have a friend who always asks for my recipes and then asks "can you
use margarine (non-fat milk, fat free whatever) instead?" Makes me crazy.

marcella

Marcella:

Does that friend then accuse you of not giving her the correct recipe
because it doesn't taste anything like the ones you make? That burns my
butt. I ask did you use a high quality, unsalted butter? Answer: Uhh,
no. I used generic margarine, it's cheaper. Did you use fresh baking
powder? Answer: Uhhh, didn't have any and didn't want to buy some just
for one batch of cookies so I just left it out. Did you use at least
the chocolate I recommended? Answer: Well, duhhh. That stuff is
something like $6.00 per bag. They had the same stuff for $2.00 so I
used that.

If I hadn't known her since childhood I would just have #$%& her! LOL.
Hmm, I wonder why her cookies didn't taste anything like the ones she
had raved so much about and demanded the recipe for. Let's see, the
only ingredient on the list she used to specification was flour and the
bit of salt. That she had the unmitigated gall to accuse me of recipe
sabatoge so no one else could make the cookies, I'm still flabbergasted
about it.

I should have known after the chicken soup fiasco of five years ago(same
accusation, almost but same scenario, ignored recipe in favor of
whatever logic floats in her brain and it didn't taste like my soup, go
figure) but I figured baking is more an exact science than making soup.
I didn't think she would be so bold as to substitute so pell mell with
something like baking but I was soooooo wrong!

Tell your friend that you heard apples and peaches are a great fat free
dessert! LOL.
>>











Marcella Peek wrote:
> In article rs.com>,
> chris > wrote:
>
>
>>Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
>>the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
>>margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.





>>Chris
>>
>
>
> Amen!
>
> I have a friend who always asks for my recipes and then asks "can you
> use margarine (non-fat milk, fat free whatever) instead?" Makes me crazy.
>
> marcella

In article rs.com>,
chris > wrote:

> Marcella:
>
> Does that friend then accuse you of not giving her the correct recipe
> because it doesn't taste anything like the ones you make?

- snippage -
>
> Tell your friend that you heard apples and peaches are a great fat free
> dessert! LOL.
> >>


Hilarious!

No, she doesn't accuse me of that. She just has to complain about every
fat containing ingredient.

Oh, and she gets irritated when I bring dinner over (because she had
surgery or whatever) and her kids like my mac and cheese or whatever
better. That's when she asks for the recipe and then asks if she really
has to use x ingredient. I just tell her (each and every time) that I
have no idea, but she can try it but not to count on it tasting the
same. She then says she wants to sub but doesn't want it to taste
different. Good luck I say. It's so funny that we have to go through
this every time. Really, do they think the answer is going to magically
change?

Once she brought me brownies made with canned black beans pureed instead
of butter. That was quite scary. I can't remember the odd ingredient
in the oatmeal cookies but they were dry and dreadful. She insists you
can't taste the difference but we clearly have different taste buds. :-)

marcella

LoL: Black beans? OK, I get that if you have food allergies or need to
modify your diet because of health reasons that substitution is
necessary but come on. Black Beans? Not happening. Can't taste the
difference? Reverent wishful thinking on her part. My sis has to stay
away from almost everything that tastes good, so I know how hard it is
to make alternative dishes from those you love. My advice to your
friend. Don't try to duplicate something you absolutely love with
substituting things not even in the same species! What you do is make
new dishes out of the things allowable and make them taste great.

No wheat, no dairy, no sugar, no chocolate. Do I try to make her a
chocolate chip cookie that doesn't taste like sidewalk scrapings? No, I
make a natural fruit filled fried rice dough dessert that tastes great.
Does she miss chocolate chip cookies? You bet but as she says, if I
gotta have one, I'll buy a good one and eat it, regretting the decision
latter as her body gets angry with her choice. The key here is (1), not
a package but one cookie.

It stinks but hey, I feel the same way about cookies and I don't have
dietary restrictions, other than I shouldn't put that many calories into
my mouth. If I have a cookie, it's going to be the real deal. Not some
weird concoction that given the choice between sawdust and the
substitute, sawdust would be a clear winner. I don't eat an entire batch
of cookies. I have one or two. I don't need a low fat, no sugar cookie
because I'm not planning on eating two pounds of the things, just one or
two, once in awhile. Ahhh enough said.

Dang it, I dragged out the pulpit and didn't mean to rant on! LOL.

Chris










Marcella Peek wrote:
> In article rs.com>,
> chris > wrote:
>
>
>>Marcella:
>>
>>Does that friend then accuse you of not giving her the correct recipe
>>because it doesn't taste anything like the ones you make?
>
>
> - snippage -
>
>>Tell your friend that you heard apples and peaches are a great fat free
>>dessert! LOL.
>> >>
>
>
>
> Hilarious!
>
> No, she doesn't accuse me of that. She just has to complain about every
> fat containing ingredient.
>
> Oh, and she gets irritated when I bring dinner over (because she had
> surgery or whatever) and her kids like my mac and cheese or whatever
> better. That's when she asks for the recipe and then asks if she really
> has to use x ingredient. I just tell her (each and every time) that I
> have no idea, but she can try it but not to count on it tasting the
> same. She then says she wants to sub but doesn't want it to taste
> different. Good luck I say. It's so funny that we have to go through
> this every time. Really, do they think the answer is going to magically
> change?
>
> Once she brought me brownies made with canned black beans pureed instead
> of butter. That was quite scary. I can't remember the odd ingredient
> in the oatmeal cookies but they were dry and dreadful. She insists you
> can't taste the difference but we clearly have different taste buds. :-)
>
> marcella

Marcella Peek wrote:

> Once she brought me brownies made with canned black beans pureed instead
> of butter. That was quite scary.

*Shudder!* And I like black beans!

> I can't remember the odd ingredient
> in the oatmeal cookies but they were dry and dreadful. She insists you
> can't taste the difference but we clearly have different taste buds. :-)

Probably applesauce subbed for butter...

Dave

You think Applesauce? They usually don't turn out dry if you do that.
They don't taste the same, I agree but not dry. Maybe she used navy
beans for that! LOL

Chris


Dave Bell wrote:
> Marcella Peek wrote:
>
>> Once she brought me brownies made with canned black beans pureed
>> instead of butter. That was quite scary.
>
>
> *Shudder!* And I like black beans!
>
>> I can't remember the odd ingredient in the oatmeal cookies but they
>> were dry and dreadful. She insists you can't taste the difference but
>> we clearly have different taste buds. :-)
>
>
> Probably applesauce subbed for butter...
>
> Dave

In article rs.com>,
chris > wrote:

> You think Applesauce? They usually don't turn out dry if you do that.
> They don't taste the same, I agree but not dry. Maybe she used navy
> beans for that! LOL
>
> Chris

OK, that's just frightening. It didn't even occur to me that it could
be another type of bean!

marcella

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:15:51 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:

>> Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
>> variable, by both manufacturer and batch.
>
>Sorry. No, it isn't....

>> We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.
>
>I'm sure that's the case. But there's no good reason that
>you've offered.

That's not my opinion -- it was the result of a Cooks Illustrated test about
five years ago.

I'll have to see if Robert Wolke has ever touched on the subject...

-- Larry

pltrgyst wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:15:51 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>>> Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
>>> variable, by both manufacturer and batch.
>>
>> Sorry. No, it isn't....
>
>>> We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.
>>
>> I'm sure that's the case. But there's no good reason that
>> you've offered.
>
> That's not my opinion -- it was the result of a Cooks Illustrated test about
> five years ago.
>
> I'll have to see if Robert Wolke has ever touched on the subject...

Cook's Illustrated articles can't be accessed unless you're
a subscriber, Larry. I'm not. I looked for Wolke on the
subject and couldn't find anything online.

Harold McGee has written about it in the revised and updated
edition of "On Food and Cooking." He says, generalizing,
that butters made in the U.S. have between 1% and 2% salt,
rounded figures. That would, at the extreme ends of that
range, be between one and two teaspoons per pound. That is
between 1/4 and 1/2 teaspoon per stick of butter. 1/32 of a
teaspoon or 1/64 of a teaspoon of salt per tablespoon
butter. The "highly variable" range is 1/32 of a teaspoon of
salt.

Here's the calculation:
If you look at the sodium content of the butter in your
fridge, you can calculate that there's about a teaspoon and
a quarter in the whole pound of butter. The numbers below
are so small that they need to be rounded unless we want a
multi-page treatise. Rounding throws off the precision, but
still lets it fall within reasonable approximations.

The usual ratio shown in the nutrition panel is 90 milligrams of
sodium in 14 grams (1 tablespoon) of butter. Sodium
comprises about 40% of the weight of salt. That means
roughly 225 milligrams or .225 grams of salt in a
tablespoon of butter. Those numbers are rounded, but they're
close enough. Extending that ratio to the whole pound
brings you to 32 tablespoons X .225 grams = 7.2 grams salt
per pound of butter. Various reliable sources give rounded
numbers that range from 7 grams salt per pound up to about 9
grams per pound. When you think that 1 ounce = 28 grams,
these are small numbers and a variation like this is
essentially meaningless unless it's a serious health
issue for some critical condition.

A cup of salt weighs about 12 ounces. A teaspoon of salt
(1/48 of a cup) weighs about 1/4 ounce or 7 grams. A pound
of butter is 2 cups volume and 454 grams weight.

A whole pound of butter will have about 1 1/4 teaspoons salt
or about .3 ounces by weight or about 8.8 grams. One
1/4-pound (1/2 cup) stick of butter would have about .3 of a
teaspoon salt or 2.1 grams and a tablespoon would have about
..26 grams. About 1/4 of one gram of salt per tablespoon of
butter; about 0.04 teaspoons, or less than 1/100 of an ounce
of salt.

Here's the U.S.D.A. database for "butter, salted"
<http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl>
Note that it says 82 milligrams sodium per tablespoon
butter. Rather close to the 90 mg, rounded, I cited.

Here it is for "butter without salt"
<http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/cgi-bin/list_nut_edit.pl>
It says that there's 2 milligrams of sodium in unsalted
butter. That means that 80 milligrams of salt is added to a
tablespoon butter. Well within the range implied by the
rounding of the basic numbers.

"Types of Butter
Salted Butter
The most common kind of butter, made from cream, and
containing about 2% salt.
Reduced and Low Salt Butters
"Reduced salt" or "low-salt" butter usually has about
1% salt, half as much as standard butter. Unsalted butter
has none, of course, but it doesn't keep as long; salt
increases the shelf life as well as changing the taste.
Cultured Butter
Cultured, sour cream, or Danish-style butter has some
selected culture is added to the cream and a different
flavor develops, which is more acidic.
Dairy Blends
Dairy blends are a mix of butter and vegetable oil (up
to 50%). They taste like butter, but have less milkfat,
obviously, and are easier to spread after refrigeration.
Ghee
Ghee, or clarified butter, is essentially just the
milkfat and not the solids from the butter. It is often used
for frying.
Whey butter
Whey butter is made from cream that has been separated
from milk whey. This type of cream is left over from cheese
making, which uses the curds of the milk and squeezes out
the whey.

The use of butter is a cultural thing; for example, Northern
Europeans and their descendants around the world use butter
where Southern Europeans would use olive oil. Butter was
forbidden on fast days and during Lent for Catholics, and
one of Martin Luther's complaints against the Roman Catholic
Church was the choice they required between importing olive
oils from Italy with their attendant taxes, or buying
indulgences allowing people to eat butter. He felt this was
the Church's way of gaining revenue from Northern Europe. In
1520, he wrote that "Eating butter, they say, is a greater
sin than to lie, blaspheme, or indulge in impurity." This
everyday issue may have helped Protestantism catch on in
countries where butter was a common part of the diet.

Sources:
Carlson, Laurie Wynn. Cattle: An Informal Social History.
Chicago: Ivan R. Dee, 2001.
http://www.milkingredients.ca/DCP/ar...d=145&page=216
http://www.dairycorp.com.au/butter/butter_types.htm
http://www.dairycorp.com.au/butter/butter_history.htm
http://www.idb.ie/products/WBUSAL.HTM
http://www.uwec.edu/Academic/Geograp.../w111/cows.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

The site has wonderfully whimsical notes with good
information...

"Anyways, here is how you make butter -" ... and it goes on
to explain how with tongue in cheek. Good for a grin and
good for actual information.

<http://everything2.org/index.pl?node=butter>

Happy butter to all...

Pastorio

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:57:55 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:

>Harold McGee has written about it in the revised and updated
>edition of "On Food and Cooking." He says, generalizing,
>that butters made in the U.S. have between 1% and 2% salt,
>rounded figures. That would, at the extreme ends of that
>range, be between one and two teaspoons per pound. That is
>between 1/4 and 1/2 teaspoon per stick of butter. 1/32 of a
>teaspoon or 1/64 of a teaspoon of salt per tablespoon
>butter. The "highly variable" range is 1/32 of a teaspoon of
>salt.

Bob,

I'm not a baker, but I do cook a lot. For the things that I prepare, such as
sauces, I'm more likely to be concerned about the results of using a stick of
butter (0.25 lb.) or more than those that use a pat. For those cases, yes, I
would think that 1/4 to 1/2 tsp is "highly variable."

For recipes using a pat or two, I'd agree with you that it's negligible.

BTW, thanks for all the posted information.

-- Larry

pltrgyst wrote:

> On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:57:55 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>> Harold McGee has written about it in the revised and updated
>> edition of "On Food and Cooking." He says, generalizing,
>> that butters made in the U.S. have between 1% and 2% salt,
>> rounded figures. That would, at the extreme ends of that
>> range, be between one and two teaspoons per pound. That is
>> between 1/4 and 1/2 teaspoon per stick of butter. 1/32 of a
>> teaspoon or 1/64 of a teaspoon of salt per tablespoon
>> butter. The "highly variable" range is 1/32 of a teaspoon of
>> salt.
>
> Bob,
>
> I'm not a baker, but I do cook a lot.

I did in all my restaurants and in my functions as a
research chef, as well. I still do as a consultant, recipe
designer, and food writer. I formulate recipes for
commercial products ranging from salad dressings, through
seasoned oils and vinegars, to preserves, fruit juice curds,
baked goods, and detailed restaurant menu offerings. Many of
them use butter.

> For the things that I prepare, such as
> sauces, I'm more likely to be concerned about the results of using a stick of
> butter (0.25 lb.) or more than those that use a pat. For those cases, yes, I
> would think that 1/4 to 1/2 tsp is "highly variable."

Puhleeze. You take numbers used as generalizations to
illustrate the extremes of the *rounded* range as exact
figures. Bad form.

It's unfortunate that you delete the actual calculations to
make your point. And that you seem to gloss the real and
demonstrated statements that say that butter in the U.S.
contains about 1.25 teaspoons salt per pound per label
requirements.

And if you're using a whole stick of butter in a sauce, the
total volume should be very easily able to absorb the salt
of the butter as a flavoring agent, virtually no matter what
sauce it is. Monter au beurre takes very little butter and
the flavor essentially disappears, so I have to assume
you're talking about maybe Hollandaise or Bearnaise or other
butter-based sauces. I defy anyone to tell the difference
between salted and unsalted in a quart of Hollandaise. The
salted might taste a tiny bit better. Maybe.

But when it's all said and done, you're guessing since you
say you don't use salted butter.

> For recipes using a pat or two, I'd agree with you that it's negligible.

I haven't seen anything to support that "highly variable"
assertion beyond, well, the assertion. The calculations I
offered with chemical analysis say exactly the opposite.
It's not nice to cherry pick for debate points.

> BTW, thanks for all the posted information.

Use it in good health. We're done here, I think.

Pastorio

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:14:23 -0400
"Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
> And if you want still more of that flavor, keep your butter
> in a butter dish on the kitchen counter at home, rather than
> in the fridge. It "ripens" and the flavor intensifies.
> Obviously, if it's very hot in the kitchen (more than 90°F),
> this won't work because the butter liquefies. There's no
> issue of spoilage or rancidity if it's used within a couple
> weeks.


I agree with everything you said. I just want to clarify (no pun
intended) the point that we discussed two different sources of 'butter
flavor' - here you're referring to that which comes from ageing the
butter, but we also discussed the milk solids precipitated out during
the crystallization phase of the butter manufacture process - that being
whey proteins and caseinates, which don't increase over time. Well, the
caseinates might, I forget if they're manufactured by bacteria.

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:18:44 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:

>Puhleeze. You take numbers used as generalizations to
>illustrate the extremes of the *rounded* range as exact
>figures. Bad form.

Not "bad form" at all. They're called "boundary conditions," and that's what
mathematicians use when they're calculating variances (maxima and minima), as
you probably well know.

>But when it's all said and done, you're guessing since you
>say you don't use salted butter.

Well, obviously, we used to. We haven't for about five years now.

>Use it in good health. We're done here, I think.

You too.

-- Larry

pltrgyst wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 02:18:44 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>> Puhleeze. You take numbers used as generalizations to
>> illustrate the extremes of the *rounded* range as exact
>> figures. Bad form.
>
> Not "bad form" at all. They're called "boundary conditions," and that's what
> mathematicians use when they're calculating variances (maxima and minima), as
> you probably well know.

There's a difference between objective "boundary conditions"
and editing to create new ones to suit the polemic.
*Rounded* range limits to be used as though they were
*exact* figures applied to distinct data points.

Bad form.

Pastorio

In article . com>,
Merry > wrote:
=
= Frank103 wrote:
= > I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
= > salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
= > the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
= > professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
= > advance.
= > Frank
= I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
= what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
= amount of salt called for in the recipe

I must say that I've often wondered as Frank has done. How much
salt *is* there is a stick of "lightly salted butter" (as it says
on the package)?

Considering all the variables in cooking, it really puzzles me that
the little bit of salt in salted butter will make *that* much
difference to the final product. Consider just the variability in
eggs, for example. Yes, I know the "standard" size is, what, USDA
"Large"? I don't know about the eggs y'all buy, but the ones I get
vary all over the place. I suspect that sizes vary from a miniscule
amount above the next smaller "standard" size to a similar bit below
the next larger. And consider flour. No matter how you measure
it. Whether you measure by weight or by volume, unless the flour
is from the same batch, has been stored and will be used under
precisely the same conditions as the person who created the recipe,
you are unlikely to use precisely the same amount that he did.

Consider for example, two packages of flour from the same batch.
One is stored in my house at 6500 feet above sea level here in the
desert (US) southwest, humidity often single-digit; the other in my
sister's house, a stone's throw from the Ohio River (about 600 feet
above see level) in humid, sometimes 90+%, West Virginia. No matter
how you measure it, you won't get the same amount both places.
Other examples abound.

And we're going to worry about the bit of salt in a tablespoon, a
stick, even a pound, of butter?

--
Charlie Sorsby

Edgewood, NM 87015
USA