I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
advance.
Frank

On Sat, 19 Aug 2006 13:42:12 -0700, "Frank103" >
wrote:

>I have heard that pastry chefs

....stirring a bubblin' pot, Frank.


A blind taste test would probably confuse most connoisseurs/people, at
best / least. ONLY your preferences will be satisfactory to you.
Any other opinion will be met with ridicule.

In article <IIKFg.1556$JR5.565@dukeread11>, says...
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank

Not only in cakes and cookies, but in general I switched to non-salted
butter several years back. I can definitely detect the additional salt
in recipes requiring butter where salted is used vs. unsalted.

Frank103 wrote:
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank

With some things you can tell a difference especially if the butter is
the main flavor in the recipe. If it's something like a chocolate cake
though then you probably wouldn't notice the difference. Actually it's
whatever you prefer. I prefer to use salted butter. I like to make
things like croissants and Danish pastry and usually I use salted
butter. I used unsalted butter one time and didn't like it as well.

Frank103 wrote:
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank
I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
amount of salt called for in the recipe

On 23 Aug 2006 11:10:33 -0700
"Merry" > wrote:

>
> Frank103 wrote:
> > I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather
> > than salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you
> > actually taste the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I
> > guess people who are professionals can but can most others tell the
> > difference? thanks in advance.
> > Frank
> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> amount of salt called for in the recipe


I'm not making a judgment call on whether or not to use unsalted -
that's gonna vary by recipe and by audience.

But i am going to point out that factories don't make butter by
churning it in the sense that you and i recognize. They whip it up and
then chill it, and the fat crystallizes and rises to the top. They do
this with whole milk - they don't separate out the cream and then work
on that.

Adding the salt during the crystallization process causes more of the
milk solids to cling to the fat as it solidifies. These solids are
responsible for much of the flavor of butter. Salted butter tastes
better on a fresh biscuit not just because it has a little salt in it,
but because it has more flavor in it.

Depending on the recipe and who you're feeding, subtracting a little
salt from the recipe and using salted butter can work fine. But there's
more to the problem than salt.

The salt is also a preservative, as it retards bacterial growth. The
bacteria in butter produces butyric acid, which is nice in infinitesimal
amounts, but nasty in large amounts. Unsalted butter may thus have less
of the whey flavor and more of the butyric acid flavor.

Personally I keep a pound of unsalted butter in the freezer. If a
recipe calls for it, I thaw it out and use it. It's just not that hard
to keep it around.

Eric Jorgensen wrote:
> On 23 Aug 2006 11:10:33 -0700
> "Merry" > wrote:
>
>> Frank103 wrote:
>>> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather
>>> than salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you
>>> actually taste the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I
>>> guess people who are professionals can but can most others tell the
>>> difference? thanks in advance.
>>> Frank
>> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
>> what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
>> amount of salt called for in the recipe
>
>
> I'm not making a judgment call on whether or not to use unsalted -
> that's gonna vary by recipe and by audience.
>
> But i am going to point out that factories don't make butter by
> churning it in the sense that you and i recognize. They whip it up and
> then chill it, and the fat crystallizes and rises to the top. They do
> this with whole milk - they don't separate out the cream and then work
> on that.
>
> Adding the salt during the crystallization process causes more of the
> milk solids to cling to the fat as it solidifies. These solids are
> responsible for much of the flavor of butter. Salted butter tastes
> better on a fresh biscuit not just because it has a little salt in it,
> but because it has more flavor in it.

And if you want still more of that flavor, keep your butter
in a butter dish on the kitchen counter at home, rather than
in the fridge. It "ripens" and the flavor intensifies.
Obviously, if it's very hot in the kitchen (more than 90°F),
this won't work because the butter liquefies. There's no
issue of spoilage or rancidity if it's used within a couple
weeks.

> Depending on the recipe and who you're feeding, subtracting a little
> salt from the recipe and using salted butter can work fine. But there's
> more to the problem than salt.
>
> The salt is also a preservative, as it retards bacterial growth. The
> bacteria in butter produces butyric acid, which is nice in infinitesimal
> amounts, but nasty in large amounts. Unsalted butter may thus have less
> of the whey flavor and more of the butyric acid flavor.

The amount of salt in salted butter isn't enough to exercise
much of a preservative value. It's a trivial amount compared
to what was done it earlier times when it really was
necessary because of lack of refrigeration and the present
nuisance of rancidity. Butter in colonial America was
heavily salted and had to be "washed" before it could be used.

Butyric acid is found as an ester naturally occurring in
fats and oils. The butyric acid in *refrigerated* unsalted
butter isn't much of a factor until it's been stored a long
time, heading well into rancidity. Much longer than the
usual retail sales cycles. It comprises between 3% and 4% of
butter and doesn't become an issue until hydrolyzed out of
its ester and the free butyric acid appears. It's a familiar
unpleasant, acrid smell and taste found in rancid butter,
Parmesan cheese, vomit and perspiration.

> Personally I keep a pound of unsalted butter in the freezer. If a
> recipe calls for it, I thaw it out and use it. It's just not that hard
> to keep it around.

Agreed.

But I just don't see the value of doing it. Most recipes are
written by recipe writers, not food scientists.

Pastorio

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:14:23 -0400
"Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
> And if you want still more of that flavor, keep your butter
> in a butter dish on the kitchen counter at home, rather than
> in the fridge. It "ripens" and the flavor intensifies.
> Obviously, if it's very hot in the kitchen (more than 90°F),
> this won't work because the butter liquefies. There's no
> issue of spoilage or rancidity if it's used within a couple
> weeks.


I agree with everything you said. I just want to clarify (no pun
intended) the point that we discussed two different sources of 'butter
flavor' - here you're referring to that which comes from ageing the
butter, but we also discussed the milk solids precipitated out during
the crystallization phase of the butter manufacture process - that being
whey proteins and caseinates, which don't increase over time. Well, the
caseinates might, I forget if they're manufactured by bacteria.

In article . com>,
Merry > wrote:
=
= Frank103 wrote:
= > I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
= > salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
= > the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
= > professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
= > advance.
= > Frank
= I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
= what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
= amount of salt called for in the recipe

I must say that I've often wondered as Frank has done. How much
salt *is* there is a stick of "lightly salted butter" (as it says
on the package)?

Considering all the variables in cooking, it really puzzles me that
the little bit of salt in salted butter will make *that* much
difference to the final product. Consider just the variability in
eggs, for example. Yes, I know the "standard" size is, what, USDA
"Large"? I don't know about the eggs y'all buy, but the ones I get
vary all over the place. I suspect that sizes vary from a miniscule
amount above the next smaller "standard" size to a similar bit below
the next larger. And consider flour. No matter how you measure
it. Whether you measure by weight or by volume, unless the flour
is from the same batch, has been stored and will be used under
precisely the same conditions as the person who created the recipe,
you are unlikely to use precisely the same amount that he did.

Consider for example, two packages of flour from the same batch.
One is stored in my house at 6500 feet above sea level here in the
desert (US) southwest, humidity often single-digit; the other in my
sister's house, a stone's throw from the Ohio River (about 600 feet
above see level) in humid, sometimes 90+%, West Virginia. No matter
how you measure it, you won't get the same amount both places.
Other examples abound.

And we're going to worry about the bit of salt in a tablespoon, a
stick, even a pound, of butter?

--
Charlie Sorsby

Edgewood, NM 87015
USA

Frank103 wrote:
> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> advance.
> Frank
I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
amount of salt called for in the recipe

Merry wrote:
> Frank103 wrote:
>
>>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
>>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
>>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
>>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
>>advance.
>>Frank
>
> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> amount of salt called for in the recipe


Merry:

My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
people who can tell as well.

Chris

chris wrote:
> Merry wrote:
> > Frank103 wrote:
> >
> >>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> >>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> >>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> >>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> >>advance.
> >>Frank
> >
> > I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> > what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> > amount of salt called for in the recipe
>
>
> Merry:
>
> My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
> time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
> I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
> salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
> people who can tell as well.
>
> Chris
I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
gotta have a cookie...

chris wrote:
> Merry wrote:
> > Frank103 wrote:
> >
> >>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> >>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> >>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> >>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> >>advance.
> >>Frank
> >
> > I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> > what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> > amount of salt called for in the recipe
>
>
> Merry:
>
> My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
> time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
> I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
> salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
> people who can tell as well.
>
> Chris
I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
gotta have a cookie...

Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.

Chris


Merryb wrote:
> chris wrote:
>
>>Merry wrote:
>>
>>>Frank103 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
>>>>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
>>>>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
>>>>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
>>>>advance.
>>>>Frank
>>>
>>>I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
>>>what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
>>>amount of salt called for in the recipe
>>
>>
>>Merry:
>>
>>My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
>>time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
>>I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
>>salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
>> people who can tell as well.
>>
>>Chris
>
> I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
> I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
> gotta have a cookie...
>

chris wrote:
> Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
> the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
> margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.
Margarine? What's that?
>
> Chris
>
>
> Merryb wrote:
> > chris wrote:
> >
> >>Merry wrote:
> >>
> >>>Frank103 wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted butter rather than
> >>>>salted butter. When it comes to cakes and cookies, can you actually taste
> >>>>the difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess people who are
> >>>>professionals can but can most others tell the difference? thanks in
> >>>>advance.
> >>>>Frank
> >>>
> >>>I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway, so why ruin
> >>>what you are making with more. If I must use salted, I reduce the
> >>>amount of salt called for in the recipe
> >>
> >>
> >>Merry:
> >>
> >>My yes you can. Especially in a butter cookie recipe. At Christmas
> >>time I bake a lot of cookies that are mostly butter, nuts and flour adn
> >>I can taste the difference. It might be because I generally have a low
> >>salt diet so can taste the difference more readily but I know many other
> >> people who can tell as well.
> >>
> >>Chris
> >
> > I think you misunderstood me- I never use salted butter in baking, but
> > I have once or twice in a pinch. You can tell it's there, but if you
> > gotta have a cookie...
> >

In article rs.com>,
chris > wrote:

> Mary: LOL Of course if you gotta have a cookie, that bit of salt in
> the butter wouldn't stop me! NO way, no how. But I put my foot down at
> margarine. Just no excuse. I would rather have nothing.
>
> Chris
>

Amen!

I have a friend who always asks for my recipes and then asks "can you
use margarine (non-fat milk, fat free whatever) instead?" Makes me crazy.

marcella

Merry wrote:

> Frank103 wrote:
>> I have heard that pastry chefs usually prefer unsalted
>> butter rather than salted butter. When it comes to
>> cakes and cookies, can you actually taste the
>> difference between salted and unsalted butter? I guess
>> people who are professionals can but can most others
>> tell the difference? thanks in advance. Frank
>
> I use unsalted butter- most recipes call for salt anyway,
> so why ruin what you are making with more. If I must use
> salted, I reduce the amount of salt called for in the
> recipe

Why is that such a hard thing to do - reduce the salt in
recipes?

I could taste the difference after a while on a low-salt
diet (that was a mistake on the doctor's part), but
otherwise, most people won't spot the difference.
Thankfully, I don't do that low-salt thing now.

If you look at the sodium content of the butter in your
fridge, you can calculate that there's about a teaspoon and
a quarter in the whole pound of butter. The numbers below
are so small that they need to be rounded unless we want a
multi-page treatise.

The usual ratio shown in the nutrition panel is 90 milligrams of
sodium in 14 grams (1 tablespoon) of butter. Sodium
comprises about 40% of the weight of salt. That means
roughly 225 milligrams or .225 grams of salt in a
tablespoon of butter. Those numbers are rounded, but they're
close enough. Extending that ratio to the whole pound
brings you to 32 tablespoons X .225 grams = 7.2 grams salt
per pound of butter. Various reliable sources give rounded
numbers that range from 7 grams salt per pound up to about 9
grams per pound. When you think that 1 ounce = 28 grams,
these are small numbers and a variation like this is
essentially meaningless unless it's a serious health
issue for some critical condition.

A cup of salt weighs about 12 ounces. A teaspoon of salt
(1/48 of a cup) weighs about 1/4 ounce or 7 grams. A pound
of butter is 2 cups volume and 454 grams weight.

A whole pound of butter will have about 1 1/4 teaspoons salt
or about .3 ounces by weight or about 8.8 grams. One
1/4-pound (1/2 cup) stick of butter would have about .3 of a
teaspoon salt or 2.1 grams and a tablespoon would have about
..26 grams. About 1/4 of one gram of salt per tablespoon of
butter; about 0.04 teaspoons, or less than 1/100 of an ounce
of salt.

Now that you know that, you can use salted butter and
compensate as you will for its salt content. My attitude is
not to even count it. In very specific taste tests we did in
my restaurants with recipes made with salted and unsalted
butter, the several people who participated found no
difference in taste or any other characteristic of finished
products. Not even in candies or lemon curd and the like
where you'd expect it to be of consequence.

Pastorio

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 03:45:14 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:

>Why is that such a hard thing to do - reduce the salt in
>recipes?

Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
variable, by both manufacturer and batch.

We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.

-- Larry

pltrgyst wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 03:45:14 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>> Why is that such a hard thing to do - reduce the salt in
>> recipes?
>
> Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
> variable, by both manufacturer and batch.

Sorry. No, it isn't. There are stringent standards for
ingredients and process for the commercial manufacture of
butter. If you look at the nutrition panels of butter
packages of different brands and different batches, the
numbers are constant. And they're constant because the law
demands that the info be accurate, and because the public
expects butter to taste a certain way and it's this way.
Otherwise they don't buy it.

> We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.

I'm sure that's the case. But there's no good reason that
you've offered.

Pastorio

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 18:15:51 -0400, "Bob (this one)" > wrote:

>> Because, for one thing, the amount of salt in "lightly salted" butter is highly
>> variable, by both manufacturer and batch.
>
>Sorry. No, it isn't....

>> We don't buy any but unsalted butter for any purpose.
>
>I'm sure that's the case. But there's no good reason that
>you've offered.

That's not my opinion -- it was the result of a Cooks Illustrated test about
five years ago.

I'll have to see if Robert Wolke has ever touched on the subject...

-- Larry