The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
question I've wondered about for a while.
Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?

I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so many
flavors as to lose any theme to the food. Sometimes, Salt and Pepper
make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.
--
Nonny

Nonnymus
I'm not who you think I am. I'm not who
I think I am. I am what I think you think I am.

"Nonnymus" > wrote in message
...
> The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
> question I've wondered about for a while.
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins to
> muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
> I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
> better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so many
> flavors as to lose any theme to the food. Sometimes, Salt and Pepper
> make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.
> --
> Nonny
>
> Nonnymus
> I'm not who you think I am. I'm not who
> I think I am. I am what I think you think I am.

It actually depends on the type of cuisine. The basic French philosophy is
'if you can recognize a specific flavor (spice herb) you've used too much".
Then the Indian curry or other spiced dishes. Finally the American
philosophy. If a little is good a lot is better.

:-)

Dimitri

On Aug 10, 4:26*pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
> The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
> question I've wondered about for a while.
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
> I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
> better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so many
> flavors as to lose any theme to the food. * Sometimes, Salt and Pepper
> make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.
> --
> Nonny
>
> Nonnymus
> I'm not who you think I am. *I'm not who
> I think I am. *I am what I think you think I am.

I made the "that chicken" last night. I scrapped about half of the
ingredients, and it was very tasty. I doubt that the inclusion of
garlic powder or cayenne would have changed much. Cayenne is great,
but it already had Frank's sauce and chili powder.

I also pretty much cut out the canola oil and added some honey to
counter the vinegar.

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 16:26:40 -0700, Nonnymus > wrote:

>The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
>question I've wondered about for a while.
>Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
>to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
>I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
>better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so many
>flavors as to lose any theme to the food. Sometimes, Salt and Pepper
>make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.

IMHO it all depends on how much of the chicken you want to taste.

16 to me sounds like too much. But to each their own.
--

What Is a Veteran?

A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is
someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to
'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his
life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country
today, who no longer understand that fact.

Nonny - I absolutely believe too many an too much of any spice can
ruin food.

Barbecue/smoked/grilled is probably my favorite, but I cook all manner
of different foods.

To me, you need to either accent one flavor, say as in a "basil"
marinara, or meld the flavors so that you almost taste a spice or two
but nothing stands out.

I cook a lot as it is kind of a hobby of mine. There are days I will
spend the whole day in the kitchen (don't worry - as a general
contractor I get all the outside time I want!) cooking. After serving
thousands of meals to family and friends I really believe it is all
(like a themed dish) or nothing ("hey- what's in this?) when you are
on your game.

My conclusion is this: many people put more spices in simply because
they think more is better. After watching me cook for the last 30
years, my father cooks a meal about 2 - 3 times a month now. But he
stands at the stove and shakes in anything that sounds good, and if it
is a favorite flavor of his he will add tons of it. He is really
heavy handed with granulated garlic.

I learned this in an Asian cooking class I took many years ago, and
have had it confirmed later by real chefs. None of your spices
(that's right - none) stand up to heat really well. What saves most
people is they make a certain dish, and load all the spices up when
the dish starts cooking.

This may be OK depending on what you are shooting for, but for most
dishes you kill the actual flavor of the spices. Don't believe me?
Winter is coming up; make that big vat of soup like you always do, but
leave out the spices. Add in all the veggies (including garlic if you
want and cook to the desired tenderness of your veggies and meat.
20 minutes before serving, bring the heat down to "just simmering" and
add your spices. Take the soup off the burner nd allow it to sit for
10 minutes before serving. You won't believe the difference in your
soup compared to having spices that have had all their essential oils
boiled right out of them.

As for too many spices, try this and you will have your answer.

Take one of these recipes that has 15 different spices and leave one
out. Unless it is salt or hot chilis, you probably won't notice it's
gone. You have my word you won't when you take one of these recipes
and it has the same exact measured amount of every spice you have in
your cabinet.

Robert

On Aug 11, 9:08*am, " >
wrote:

> As for too many spices, try this and you will have your answer.
>
> Take one of these recipes that has 15 different spices and leave one
> out. *Unless it is salt or hot chilis, you probably won't notice it's
> gone. *You have my word you won't when you take one of these recipes
> and it has the same exact measured amount of every spice you have in
> your cabinet.
>

Facts just take the fun out of things don't they ;-)

Dale

On Aug 10, 5:26*pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?

I used to be heavy-handed when it came to spices. Then one day I
cooked some chicken without spices except for salt & pepper and went
"wow so this is what chicken tastes like". I had been doping the
chicken up to the point all I tasted was the spices. This is my
routine rub now - S&P and granulated garlic. But not too much. I
want the chicken (or whatever else I'm cooking) flavor to be the star.

-frohe

"frohe" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 5:26 pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?

I used to be heavy-handed when it came to spices. Then one day I
cooked some chicken without spices except for salt & pepper and went
"wow so this is what chicken tastes like". I had been doping the
chicken up to the point all I tasted was the spices. This is my
routine rub now - S&P and granulated garlic. But not too much. I
want the chicken (or whatever else I'm cooking) flavor to be the star.

unless your chicken has been sitting around for a while. Spices/sauces were
initially used to hide off flavors. If you have good food to start with,
minimalism is a good way to go.

"Tighthead" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 4:26 pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
> The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
> question I've wondered about for a while.
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
> I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
> better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so many
> flavors as to lose any theme to the food. Sometimes, Salt and Pepper
> make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.
> --
> Nonny
>
> Nonnymus
> I'm not who you think I am. I'm not who
> I think I am. I am what I think you think I am.

I made the "that chicken" last night. I scrapped about half of the
ingredients, and it was very tasty. I doubt that the inclusion of
garlic powder or cayenne would have changed much. Cayenne is great,
but it already had Frank's sauce and chili powder.

I also pretty much cut out the canola oil and added some honey to
counter the vinegar.

How did you scrap the garlic, it's my fav!!!!!
Tonia

"frohe" > wrote in message
...
On Aug 10, 5:26 pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?

I used to be heavy-handed when it came to spices. Then one day I
cooked some chicken without spices except for salt & pepper and went
"wow so this is what chicken tastes like". I had been doping the
chicken up to the point all I tasted was the spices. This is my
routine rub now - S&P and granulated garlic. But not too much. I
want the chicken (or whatever else I'm cooking) flavor to be the star.

-frohe

Perfect.

Why spoil good food with bad flavors?

Dimitri

frohe > wrote in news:f0a46275-6f39-49e7-a392-
:

> On Aug 10, 5:26*pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
>> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
>> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
> I used to be heavy-handed when it came to spices. Then one day I
> cooked some chicken without spices except for salt & pepper and went
> "wow so this is what chicken tastes like". I had been doping the
> chicken up to the point all I tasted was the spices. This is my
> routine rub now - S&P and granulated garlic. But not too much. I
> want the chicken (or whatever else I'm cooking) flavor to be the star.
>
> -frohe
>

I gotta think you can overdo the spices But after reading a few
posts in here, I decided I'd do some spare ribs just S+P with a lil
garlic powder,, and when done they were ok but I had a desire to pop
some tabasco sauce on them.. and I don't normally sauce my meats.

"Charlyhorse" > wrote in message
...
> frohe > wrote in news:f0a46275-6f39-49e7-a392-
> :
>
>> On Aug 10, 5:26 pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
>>> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
>>> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>>
>> I used to be heavy-handed when it came to spices. Then one day I
>> cooked some chicken without spices except for salt & pepper and went
>> "wow so this is what chicken tastes like". I had been doping the
>> chicken up to the point all I tasted was the spices. This is my
>> routine rub now - S&P and granulated garlic. But not too much. I
>> want the chicken (or whatever else I'm cooking) flavor to be the star.
>>
>> -frohe
>>
>
> I gotta think you can overdo the spices But after reading a few
> posts in here, I decided I'd do some spare ribs just S+P with a lil
> garlic powder,, and when done they were ok but I had a desire to pop
> some tabasco sauce on them.. and I don't normally sauce my meats.

I think it really depends on who you're cooking for and what are their
tastes. For the most part once added you can't take a spice flavor away.
If you like Tabasco no problem maybe some cayenne needs to go with the salt
and the garlic powder. I am not sure about you guys but I cook differently
for a crowd then I do for just my family.

Dimitri

And while on the topic of spicing and spices, it should be note that
most spices, no matter how well stored (temp, light, air, etc.) lose
their potency by large amounts after about 6 months. Some lose their
flavors, and some change flavors.

Granulated garlic will taste more like old cardboard, oregano will
smell more like old grass, and basil can just go away altogether.
Flavors start to change the minute you open the container.

I try to only buy what I will use in a few months. But in the case of
rub, it only makes sense to buy in bulk. So I buy in bulk, mix the
rubs, and then vacuum bag them. In the freezer with no air, they will
last a really long time. Plus, it's really convenient. Batches of
rub seem to disappear quickly around here on popcorn, chicken breasts,
and then used at the table as a substitute for S&P.

I read this in a magazine, and I surprised myself when I did it. I
buy bulk spices that I repackage as well as containers of different
spices. When I get them home, I date them with a felt tip pen. Then
I date them when I open them.

This lets me know exactly how long I have had them, as well as how
long I have had them open.

Here's another great experiment.

I would imagine that most here have their favorite rub or seasoning
sprinkle. Go to the store and buy fresh ingredients and make up a
batch of rub or sprinkle. Compare that to meat cooked and seasoned
with the old ingredients made made up into rub or sprinkle. What a
difference.

Robert

On Aug 10, 8:34*pm, "Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:
> Tighthead wrote:
> > On Aug 10, 4:26 pm, Nonnymus > wrote:
> >> The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
> >> question I've wondered about for a while.
> >> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices
> >> begins to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
> >> I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
> >> better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so
> >> many flavors as to lose any theme to the food. Sometimes, Salt and
> >> Pepper make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.
> >> --
> >> Nonny
>
> >> Nonnymus
> >> I'm not who you think I am. I'm not who
> >> I think I am. I am what I think you think I am.
>
> > I made the "that chicken" last night. *I scrapped about half of the
> > ingredients, and it was very tasty. *I doubt that the inclusion of
> > garlic powder or cayenne would have changed much. *Cayenne is great,
> > but it already had Frank's sauce and chili powder.
>
> > I also pretty much cut out the canola oil and added some honey to
> > counter the vinegar.
>
> Which chicken did you make, "The Chicken" as posted a few days back, or the
> 16 spice spam chicken?
>
> MBKC- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

"the chicken". It was good. Letting it soak longer next time might
help, not sure if the Canola would help penetrate the meat or not.

On Aug 11, 6:44 pm, "Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:

> GMTA, I just posted about the futility of grocery store (read OLD) spices.
> All spices that not yet ground will hold up much longer than the same spice
> pre-ground, given the same age.

Tell ya how bad I am about this kind of stuff, I even roast my own
coffee from greens. Not with a roaster... by hand! What a difference
that make for coffee! If you haven't had fresh roasted (say about 12
hours old) then you really are missing out. I started roasting about
10 years ago, and probably haven't bought a pound of coffee anywhere
since.

>Two of the spices that really give me a laugh, whole leaf or not, are dried
> cilantro and dried parsley. They have the same amount of flavor value as
> paper.

Seriously; what's up with dried celantro? That's one I don't get. I
can use it, and it seems to literally disappear. *poof*


> If you vac it and store it away from light, you might not need to freeze it
> to get those results. Oxidation and light are what does the damage.

I saw some tests that included freezing after vacuum sealing v. no
freezing after sealing. The sealed, frozen spices seemed to last
better over a period of time. Within six months though, no change was
noticed. I figure what the hell, you have to store that stuff
somewhere, so the freezer is as good a place as any!

> Exactly... go to a seed store, or herb and spice specialist. Usually what
> they have is much fresher.

I had the uncommonly good fortune of having my sister in Houston take
me to the new Penzey's. I was no less than astonished at the variety
and freshness. Actually, the prices weren't really that bad, either.

We have a couple of smaller farms just over the border that grow and
package many different herbs. And Bolner's/Fiesta herb processing and
manufacturing is about 7 miles or so as the crow flies from my house.
I have no excuse not to use fresh. (As a sidebar, you should be
around when they are grinding chilies and garlic. You can smell it
from the highway, and will instantly salivate.)

>And grow what you can yourself.

I grow (a particularly nice) sage, rosemary, basil, fennel, parsley
and bay. At this time of the year almost everything else in the herb
family dies, as even at 6 at night it is still almost 100 degrees.
The herb growing season is pretty short here. Combine that with NO
rain, and not only do they need a lot of tending, but they usually
keel over anyway. Even mint and its cousins will die easily down
here.

And there is almost no such thing as a volunteer anything from the
herbs or vegetables. It just doesn't happen. The only volunteers I
have are the gladiolas in the front yard.

But starting about February until about the end of June or so, the
herbs grow like hell and produce a lot of usable foliage. They love
the clear warm days and the cool nights.

I ran out of fresh and frozen basil again this year, and next year I
might just plant a bunch. I was making pesto, chicken slathers,
marinaras, and using it in salads and before I knew it I used it all.
Next year, maybe about 6 plants will do the trick.

I'd love to be able to grow chives, but the ones that I have had that
are supposed to be more heat tolerant only got to about 10" tall and
had those little bitty tubes that you see in the gourmet chef shows.
I wanted the big ones that you put in salad and on potatoes. Those
plants had a good flavor, there just wasn't enough to fool with. Then
the heat stunted them, they got unhealthy, and they expired.

Robert

On Aug 11, 3:30*pm, "Dimitri" > wrote:
> Perfect.
> Why spoil good food with bad flavors?


Oh, I don't think I was spoiling good food with bad flavors. Rather,
masking the good food with other flavors. It's like cookin up a nice
1" ribeye. You want to taste the meat; not just the spices.

-frohe

wrote:

>

> Take one of these recipes that has 15 different spices and leave one
> out. Unless it is salt or hot chilis, you probably won't notice it's
> gone.

I think you've summarized my thoughts very well.

Darn it, as I've gotten older I've kept with that old Thoreau mantra of
"simplify, simplify, simplify." <grin>

--
Nonny

Nonnymus
I'm not who you think I am. I'm not who
I think I am. I am what I think you think I am.

> wrote in message
...
> On Aug 11, 6:44 pm, "Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:
>

>
> I ran out of fresh and frozen basil again this year, and next year I
> might just plant a bunch. I was making pesto, chicken slathers,
> marinaras, and using it in salads and before I knew it I used it all.
> Next year, maybe about 6 plants will do the trick.
>

>
> Robert
>
What is the ingredients for your basil marinade?

On Aug 13, 7:07 pm, "Nunya Bidnits" > wrote:

> > And Bolner's/Fiesta herb processing and
> > manufacturing is about 7 miles or so as the crow flies from my house.
> > I have no excuse not to use fresh.

> Yeah yeah.... you've gloated over that more than once! Don't be surprised
> when I show up at your door someday!

LMAO! True, but for a guy like me, it never gets old. I took it for
granted for years, and their setup was a just a quiet 15,000 or so sq
ft warehouse that served out immediate area for years and years.

You couldn't get Bolner's/Fiesta outside a twenty mile radius of San
Antonio in the late 60s, early 70's.

Then will all the interest in cooking, their business has grown and
grown until they are huge and ship some of their products all over the
world. Still in the same place though, just with really new machines
and running two shifts.

The point being that when I was younger I thought everyone had one of
these in their town and I never gave it a thought. I was surprised to
find it wasn't so.

The same with meats. With San Antonio at a huge crossroads to the
cattle industry, our stockyards and processing for beef was huge. Not
much chicken, not much pork, 90% BEEF. Armour (sp?), Swift, Hormel,
Wilson, and many others had processing plants here.

I can still drive down to Capitol packing an buy bulk/wholesale burger
patties, dogs, polish sausages, etc. I just have to be ready for the
25 pound boxes they come in!

Kiolbassa still has a large plant here for their sausages, and in fact
the Kiolbassa family claims they started Kiolbassa sausages here in
San Antonio. A great of the Kiolbassas live here, and the company
sponsors a lot of picnics for churches, youth groups, etc.

My first long term construction boss in the early 70s was friends with
the family, and one of the benefits of working for him was that at
Christmas he would get us all huge bone-in picnic cut shanks, right
off the Kiolbassa processing line.

> > the
> > herbs grow like hell and produce a lot of usable foliage. They love
> > the clear warm days and the cool nights.

> LOL.... I knew there was a reason I asked!

Hey... great minds think alike!

> Can you plant them where they only get morning sun in the summer, or use
> some of that row cover material to give partial shade?

I dunno. I have tried everything. When they are in the house they
seem to get stunted. When they are outside, it is less than 50/50.
And if they grow, they don't last. I may have thrown in the towel on
that one.

> Garlic chives.... they replicate here like weeds!

How nice would that be!

I went out to California to visit some friends many years ago, and
they lived in Bakersfield in a smaller retirement area of old houses.
Almost everyone out there grew something; they traded each things like
Meyer lemons for avocados, peaches for walnuts, tomatoes for specialty
greens... there was no end to it. Those old folks had it down solid.
Sadly, with old folk's constitution, NO peppers.

But I saw chives that were about 4" short of my knee. I thought it
was an ornamental grass! When I asked the lady about it, she told me
I could pull them up for all she cared (she had it ringing her patio)
as no matter what she tried she couldn't eat it all, and couldn't kill
it.

What a problem to have, right?

Robert

On 11 aug, 01:26, Nonnymus > wrote:
> The recent posting that talks about 16 spices for chicken raises a
> question I've wondered about for a while.
> Is there a practical limit of some kind where adding more spices begins
> to muddle flavor and/or detract from a desired outcome?
>
> I'm guilty of tossing something extra on occasion just to "make it
> better," but as I get older, I wonder if it's possible to create so many
> flavors as to lose any theme to the food. * Sometimes, Salt and Pepper
> make a mighty fine 'rub' for many meats, IMHO.
> --
> Nonny
>
> Nonnymus
> I'm not who you think I am. *I'm not who
> I think I am. *I am what I think you think I am.

Hi,

Can’t say much about chicken, but here’s what my butchers says about
sausages:
In the old days 2 or 3 spices where used to make sausages (salt not
included), nowadays 3 or 4 types are common

Personally I would say………keep it simple

Adriaan

On Aug 13, 1:37 pm, "Mike" > wrote:

> > I ran out of fresh and frozen basil again this year, and next year I
> > might just plant a bunch. I was making pesto, chicken slathers,
> > marinaras, and using it in salads and before I knew it I used it all.
> > Next year, maybe about 6 plants will do the trick.
>
> > Robert
>
> What is the ingredients for your basil marinade?

Not marinades, MARINARA.

Marinara sauce is a tomato based all purpose "red" gravy recipe that
uses common herbs associated with Italian cooking for spices. In the
most traditional sense, it is simply tomatoes, basil, oregano, olive
oil salt and pepper. Never any meat. It is a clean, light sauce that
doesn't overpower your food. I like to use it on grilled salmon from
time to time, not just pasta.

However, a ragu (not the crap in the jar!) can have everything
including the kitchen sink in it. Tons of garlic, all manner of
spices, meats and vegetables are common ingredients. This is what is
known on our side of the world as "pasta sauce".

Robert