What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to be
safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and I am
not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people consider
140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2 hour. Yet on
some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and requires further
oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165 F, 180 F or even 190
F.
I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises such
as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.

Darek Fisk wrote:

> What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to be
> safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and I am
> not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people consider
> 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2 hour. Yet on
> some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and requires further
> oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165 F, 180 F or even 190
> F.
> I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises such
> as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.

If your fish is previously frozen, as many are, your risk is minimal.

Fish are subject to parasites rather than bacteria. Freezing kills
parasites. Anything in a 0 F freezer for a week or more is rendered
just about 100% safe and can be eaten raw. Just ask any sushi chef.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.

"Reg" > wrote in message
t...
| Darek Fisk wrote:
|
| > What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
be
| > safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and I
am
| > not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people consider
| > 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2 hour. Yet
on
| > some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and requires further
| > oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165 F, 180 F or even
190
| > F.
| > I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
such
| > as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
|
| If your fish is previously frozen, as many are, your risk is minimal.
|
| Fish are subject to parasites rather than bacteria. Freezing kills
| parasites. Anything in a 0 F freezer for a week or more is rendered
| just about 100% safe and can be eaten raw. Just ask any sushi chef.
|
| --
| Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
|

Darek Fisk wrote:

> Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
> freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.

It's not the case that you need a commercial freezer to
render fish (or any meat) free of parasites. You just need
to hold it longer.

The lethality curve is a time/temp plot. Higher temperatures,
within certain limits, simply mean that longer holding times are
required to achieve the same result.

If the seafood product achieves a core internal temp of for
example 0 F, and it's held a week, the chances of any larvae
surviving are almost nil. If it's held 2 weeks, it's 100%
safe.

I do this with seafood with which I make smoked fish (max
internal temp of 130 F), sushi, and various tartare dishes.
Also with pork (held 45 days at 0 F), with which I make dry
cured products that are never cooked. It's perfectly safe
if done properly.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Do you have by any chance link to a site with such a curve drawing? My
freezer can go down to about -13 C.


"Reg" > wrote in message
t...
| Darek Fisk wrote:
|
| > Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
| > freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.
|
| It's not the case that you need a commercial freezer to
| render fish (or any meat) free of parasites. You just need
| to hold it longer.
|
| The lethality curve is a time/temp plot. Higher temperatures,
| within certain limits, simply mean that longer holding times are
| required to achieve the same result.
|
| If the seafood product achieves a core internal temp of for
| example 0 F, and it's held a week, the chances of any larvae
| surviving are almost nil. If it's held 2 weeks, it's 100%
| safe.
|
| I do this with seafood with which I make smoked fish (max
| internal temp of 130 F), sushi, and various tartare dishes.
| Also with pork (held 45 days at 0 F), with which I make dry
| cured products that are never cooked. It's perfectly safe
| if done properly.
|
| --
| Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
|

"Darek Fisk" > wrote:
> What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
> be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking and
> I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
> consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2
> hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
> requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165
> F, 180 F or even 190 F.
> I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
> such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.

Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing"
by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking and hot
smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or family as
guinea pigs!

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !

Darek Fisk wrote:

> Do you have by any chance link to a site with such a curve drawing? My
> freezer can go down to about -13 C.

Take a look here.

http://seafood.ucdavis.edu/HACCP/Compendium/Chapt16.htm

Also, how did you arrive at the -13 C figure? Is that by measurement
or by the manufacturers spec? I have three home freezers of varying
quality (they're nothing special) and they can all hit 0 F (-17 C)
easily if turned down to the coldest setting. Turn yours down all the
way and check with a good thermometer.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On 4-Sep-2005, "Darek Fisk" > wrote:

> Yes you are right, but the fish I am using is freshly caught and my home
> freezer can not deliver temp like the commercial freezer.

The USDA guidelines for "Certified Pork" are 20 days at +5°F, 10
days at -10°F and 6 days at -20°F. That table is geared specifically
toward Trichinae which is a worm. As we know the USDA always
allows a margin for error.

Brick

>
> "Reg" > wrote in message
> t...
> | Darek Fisk wrote:
> |
> | > What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
> be
> | > safe for eating?

<snip>

> |
> | Fish are subject to parasites rather than bacteria. Freezing kills
> | parasites. Anything in a 0 F freezer for a week or more is rendered
> | just about 100% safe and can be eaten raw. Just ask any sushi chef.
> |
> | --
> | Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
> |

--
The Brick said that (Don't bother to agree with me, I have already changed my mind.)

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
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> wrote in message

> Don't use yourself or family as
> guinea pigs!
>

Right on. Invite guests.

> wrote in message
...
| "Darek Fisk" > wrote:
| > What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish to
| > be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish smoking
and
| > I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
| > consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2
| > hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
| > requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to 165
| > F, 180 F or even 190 F.
| > I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
| > such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
|
| Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing"
| by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking and hot
| smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or family as
| guinea pigs!

No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with my
unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.


|
| --
| Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
| their families:
| http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/
|
| Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! !
!

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
>
> > Don't use yourself or family as guinea pigs!
> >
> Right on. Invite guests.

LMAO

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !

"Darek Fisk" > wrote:
> > wrote in message
> | "Darek Fisk" > wrote:
> | > What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish
> | > to be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish
> | > smoking
> and
> | > I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
> | > consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min 1/2
> | > hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
> | > requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to
> | > 165 F, 180 F or even 190 F.
> | > I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want surprises
> | > such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
> |
> | Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
> | Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking
> | and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or
> | family as guinea pigs!
>
> No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with my
> unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.
>
180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket of
bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage
Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured
cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. It's
available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I bought mine
online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !

On 04 Sep 2005 23:03:23 GMT, wrote:

>"Darek Fisk" > wrote:
>> > wrote in message
>> | "Darek Fisk" > wrote:
>
>> |
>> | Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
>> | Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking
>> | and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself or
>> | family as guinea pigs!
>>
>> No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with my
>> unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.
>>
>180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket of
>bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage
>Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured
>cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. It's
>available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I bought mine
>online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
>http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.

Nick - what's the DVD all about?

BTW Kutas is the only professional sausage maker/meat curer who wrote
the book about this subject.

It's a pricey book but well worth it.

Harry

Harry Demidavicius > wrote:
> On 04 Sep 2005 23:03:23 GMT, wrote:
> >"Darek Fisk" > wrote:
> >> > wrote in message
> >> | "Darek Fisk" > wrote:

> >> | Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
> >> | Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold
> >> | smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use
> >> | yourself or family as guinea pigs!
> >>
> >> No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with
> >> my unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.
> >>
> >180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket
> >of bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great
> >Sausage Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe
> >brined or cured cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of
> >fish. It's available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I
> >bought mine online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
> >http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.
>
> Nick - what's the DVD all about?
>
> BTW Kutas is the only professional sausage maker/meat curer who wrote
> the book about this subject.
>
> It's a pricey book but well worth it.
>
At 6-1/2"x9-1/2" and over 500 pp, I don't think it's that pricey. I don't
know what the DVD is about. I saw it when I went to their web site earlier
today. It wasn't available when I bought my copy of the book, don't
remember when, 1984 ed. I've gotta e-mail them and see if the DVD is
available nekkid.

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
their families:
http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !

I'll borrow this book from my local library tomorrow, that is the fastest
way for me. I did also dig for more information on the internet and from
what I have found it seems that all fish parasites die at 140 F in 1 minute.
But to keep safety margin it is advisable to maintain internal temp of the
thickest part at 145 F for 5 minutes minimum. Better yet it is to freeze the
fish beforehand to -4 F for 7 days.


> wrote in message
...
| "Darek Fisk" > wrote:
| > > wrote in message
| > | "Darek Fisk" > wrote:
| > | > What is the min internal temp (temp/time combination) of smoked fish
| > | > to be safe for eating? I have checked many sites related to fish
| > | > smoking
| > and
| > | > I am not any closer than before to answer this question. Some people
| > | > consider 140F as good enough for eating, others say 140 F for min
1/2
| > | > hour. Yet on some pages there were claims that 140 F is not safe and
| > | > requires further oven/microwave cooking or fish should be brought to
| > | > 165 F, 180 F or even 190 F.
| > | > I like fish cooked as little as possible but yet don't want
surprises
| > | > such as live flatworms or roundworms in my meal.
| > |
| > | Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage Recipes and Meat
| > | Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured cold smoking
| > | and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. Don't use yourself
or
| > | family as guinea pigs!
| >
| > No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with
my
| > unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.
| >
| 180 F sure sounds overcooked to me, too (unless you were doing brisket of
| bigfish)! Once again, Darek, I strongly urge you to get "Great Sausage
| Recipes and Meat Curing" by Rytek Kutas. He discusses safe brined or cured
| cold smoking and hot smoking for many different kinds of fish. It's
| available used on Amazon for $32 and up, new $70, although I bought mine
| online from the publisher, "The Sausage Maker Inc."
| http://www.sausagemaker.com/ $30, also now $40 with a DVD.
|
| --
| Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled War on Terror Veterans and
| their families:
| http://saluteheroes.org/ & http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/
|
| Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! !
!

Darek Fisk wrote:

> No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with my
> unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.

That's so incredibly overcooked I can't believe I'm reading
it.

Seafood is very delicate. You're about 40-50 degrees F above
where you should be. Those poor little fillets

What's the deal with all this paranoia about seafood,
anyway? Is this some kind of OCD thing?

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
. ..
| Darek Fisk wrote:
|
| > No, I won't. That is why I cooked my last fish to 180 F. But even with
my
| > unsophisticated taste it feld overcooked.
|
| That's so incredibly overcooked I can't believe I'm reading
| it.

That what I have said before and that is why I ask this question on
alt.food.barbecue.

|
| Seafood is very delicate. You're about 40-50 degrees F above
| where you should be. Those poor little fillets

Do you cook fish only to 130-140F? Fresh one? From what I have read
parasites in fish die at 140F in 1 minute. Considering possible error of the
temperature reading device 140F seems to be very close call not even
mentioning 130F.

|
| What's the deal with all this paranoia about seafood,
| anyway? Is this some kind of OCD thing?

OCD? Just don't feel like having a stowaway inside my stomach.

|
| --
| Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
|

Darek Fisk wrote:

> Do you cook fish only to 130-140F? Fresh one? From what I have read
> parasites in fish die at 140F in 1 minute. Considering possible error of the
> temperature reading device 140F seems to be very close call not even
> mentioning 130F.

Seriously, you're way more concerned than you need be. People
eat "rare" seafood millions of times every day without getting
sick.

Think of the last time you had grilled ahi tuna. You know that
big, bright red area in the center of the meat? That's very,
very undercooked fish... well below 130 F even.

It's perfectly legal for restaurants to serve it this way,
and there's no requirement that it be previously frozen.
In fact, most people won't eat tuna any other way. Along with
a whole slew of other fish, scallop ("day boat" scallop means
not previously frozen), and misc. seafood dishes as well.

Do people get parasites from this? It's theoretically possible,
the way that getting hit by lightening is possible.

The main cause of parasite infection from seafood is *uncooked*
fish used in things like ceviche. Just cook your fish and you'll
be fine.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
. ..
> Darek Fisk wrote:
>
> > Do you cook fish only to 130-140F? Fresh one? From what I have read
> > parasites in fish die at 140F in 1 minute. Considering possible error of
the
> > temperature reading device 140F seems to be very close call not even
> > mentioning 130F.
>
> Seriously, you're way more concerned than you need be. People
> eat "rare" seafood millions of times every day without getting
> sick.
>
> Think of the last time you had grilled ahi tuna. You know that
> big, bright red area in the center of the meat? That's very,
> very undercooked fish... well below 130 F even.
>
> It's perfectly legal for restaurants to serve it this way,
> and there's no requirement that it be previously frozen.
> In fact, most people won't eat tuna any other way. Along with
> a whole slew of other fish, scallop ("day boat" scallop means
> not previously frozen), and misc. seafood dishes as well.
>
> Do people get parasites from this? It's theoretically possible,
> the way that getting hit by lightening is possible.
>
> The main cause of parasite infection from seafood is *uncooked*
> fish used in things like ceviche. Just cook your fish and you'll
> be fine.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>

On Maui I used to eat raw fish all the time! Hook it, no need to cook it.
Just cut it up on the boat. It's called sashimi, folks and it's wonderful.

kili

kilikini wrote:

> On Maui I used to eat raw fish all the time! Hook it, no need to cook it.
> Just cut it up on the boat. It's called sashimi, folks and it's wonderful.

You can do this but restaurants and caterers can't. For most species
it must be previously frozen.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 12:09:30 GMT, "kilikini"
> wrote:

>On Maui I used to eat raw fish all the time! Hook it, no need to cook it.
>Just cut it up on the boat. It's called sashimi, folks and it's wonderful.

Your newsreader cut off the phrase "as bait" from the end of that last
line.

HTH.

"Reg" > wrote in message
. ..
> kilikini wrote:
>
> > On Maui I used to eat raw fish all the time! Hook it, no need to cook
it.
> > Just cut it up on the boat. It's called sashimi, folks and it's
wonderful.
>
> You can do this but restaurants and caterers can't. For most species
> it must be previously frozen.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>

I disagree, Reg. Restaurants in Hawaii serve raw fish all the time.
California too. Try a Japanese restaurant and they'll dig a fish out of a
tank for you, slice it up and serve it directly.

kili

"Kevin S. Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 06 Sep 2005 12:09:30 GMT, "kilikini"
> > wrote:
>
> >On Maui I used to eat raw fish all the time! Hook it, no need to cook
it.
> >Just cut it up on the boat. It's called sashimi, folks and it's
wonderful.
>
> Your newsreader cut off the phrase "as bait" from the end of that last
> line.
>
> HTH.
>

LOL! Raw fish really is good. Seriously. Try a Yellowtail or Ahi someday.
It literally melts in your mouth. I can't do salmon, though. The texture
is more firm and I can't get it down.

kili

kilikini wrote:

> LOL! Raw fish really is good. Seriously. Try a Yellowtail or Ahi someday.
> It literally melts in your mouth. I can't do salmon, though. The texture
> is more firm and I can't get it down.

Oh, it's delicious. But it's a really bad idea to not freeze-treat the
fish first.

Dana

kilikini wrote:

> I disagree, Reg. Restaurants in Hawaii serve raw fish all the time.
> California too. Try a Japanese restaurant and they'll dig a fish out of a
> tank for you, slice it up and serve it directly.

The law exists. The FDA mandate covering fish intended for raw
consumption is in The FDA Food Code, 2001 edition.

See: Freezing 3-402.11 Parasite Destruction

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fc01-3.html

The list of species and conditions requiring freezing is
covered in The Fish and Fisheries Products Hazards and
Controls Guidance, Third Edition, June 2001.

Table #3-1 - Potential Vertebrate Species Related Hazards

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/haccp4c1.html

Table #3-2 - Potential Invertebrate Species Related Hazards

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/haccp4c2.html

There are other applicable guidelines and requirements which vary
by state and locale. The ones in my area (California) are less
strict than the FDA, though.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
...
> kilikini wrote:
>
> > I disagree, Reg. Restaurants in Hawaii serve raw fish all the time.
> > California too. Try a Japanese restaurant and they'll dig a fish out of
a
> > tank for you, slice it up and serve it directly.
>
> The law exists. The FDA mandate covering fish intended for raw
> consumption is in The FDA Food Code, 2001 edition.
>
> See: Freezing 3-402.11 Parasite Destruction
>
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/fc01-3.html
>
> The list of species and conditions requiring freezing is
> covered in The Fish and Fisheries Products Hazards and
> Controls Guidance, Third Edition, June 2001.
>
> Table #3-1 - Potential Vertebrate Species Related Hazards
>
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/haccp4c1.html
>
> Table #3-2 - Potential Invertebrate Species Related Hazards
>
> http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/haccp4c2.html
>
> There are other applicable guidelines and requirements which vary
> by state and locale. The ones in my area (California) are less
> strict than the FDA, though.
>
> --
> Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com
>

Interesting reading, Reg! I thank you!

kili

kilikini wrote:

> Interesting reading, Reg! I thank you!

Sure, kili. Considering all the headaches I had trying to untangle
the whole web of laws I'm more than happy to share (even my wife the
lawyer had trouble deciphering it all).

PS - Even though I need to know this stuff for business I'm really
not in the Chicken Little camp when it comes to food safety.
Learn the basics, then relax and enjoy the food.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com