After watching a Food Network special on The Great American Beer Festival,
I'm wondering if there's a beer contest where the judges secretly buy beer
out of stores (the brewer not knowing which store) and then use these to
compare against each other. This seems more honest judging process to
determine which is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
Great American Beer Festival. Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so
structured?

Scott Jensen
--
Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

In article >,
Scott T. Jensen > wrote:
>After watching a Food Network special on The Great American Beer Festival,
>I'm wondering if there's a beer contest where the judges secretly buy beer
>out of stores (the brewer not knowing which store) and then use these to
>compare against each other. This seems more honest judging process to
>determine which is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
>specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
>Great American Beer Festival. Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so
>structured?
>
Consumer Reports did something like this, but I remember Pabst topping
their list.

--NPD
--
___________________________
Nicholas P. Dempsey
Department of Sociology
University of Chicago

"nicholas peter dempsey" wrote:
> Scott T. Jensen > wrote:
> >After watching a Food Network special on The Great American
> >Beer Festival, I'm wondering if there's a beer contest where the
> >judges secretly buy beer out of stores (the brewer not knowing
> >which store) and then use these to compare against each other.
> >This seems more honest judging process to determine which is
> >the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the specially
> >brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
> >Great American Beer Festival. Anyone know of any beer
> >contest(s) so structured?
> >
> Consumer Reports did something like this, but I remember Pabst
> topping their list.

I could see Consumer Reports doing such a contest, but I'm hoping there's
one that's done like this every year. If Consumer Reports does it every
year, that's fine. Do they?

Scott Jensen
--
Got a business question, problem, or dream?
Discuss it with the professionals that hang out at...
misc.business.consulting, misc.business.marketing.moderated
misc.business.moderated, and misc.entrepreneurs.moderated

On 10/11/03 5:08 PM, in article ,
"nicholas peter dempsey" > wrote:

> In article >,
> Scott T. Jensen > wrote:
>> After watching a Food Network special on The Great American Beer Festival,
>> I'm wondering if there's a beer contest where the judges secretly buy beer
>> out of stores (the brewer not knowing which store) and then use these to
>> compare against each other. This seems more honest judging process to
>> determine which is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
>> specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
>> Great American Beer Festival. Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so
>> structured?
>>
> Consumer Reports did something like this, but I remember Pabst topping
> their list.
>
> --NPD

I lost faith in Consumer Reports magazine back in the late 1970s...they had
a report on the Saab 99 automobile and they ranked the gas tank safety of
that car as just average...the Saab 99 in the 1970s though had one of the
safest gas tanks in the industry, so in other words the magazine was full of
it so to speak. Figures the would rank Blue Ribbon so well.

Somehow Consumer Reports magazine makes me think of Corn Dogs...I hate Corn
Dogs.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:04:30 -0500, "Scott T. Jensen"
> wrote:

>[...] This seems more honest judging process to
>determine which is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
>specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
>Great American Beer Festival.

Eh? The beer submitted to GABF for judging is wha-wha-what? The
beer for judging is normally from plain bottles, and is poured out
of sight of the judges by stewards. The judges normally see nothing
but the beer - no special brewing, bottling, packaging, or other
such folderol. As for delivery, well yeah, the brewers might make
sure the beer is a freshly delivered as possible. Specially brewed?
I know for a fact that the clear majority of brewers bring exactly
the same beers that they make to be bought by the general public.

Nice little conspiracy theory, but that dog don't hunt.
--

Nobody You Know

"Oh, Guess" wrote:
> "Scott T. Jensen" wrote:
> >[...] This seems more honest judging process to
> >determine which is the best beers that us consumers can
> >purchase than the specially brewed, bottled, packaged,
> >and delivered beer submitted to The Great American
> >Beer Festival.
>
> Eh? The beer submitted to GABF for judging is
> wha-wha-what? The beer for judging is normally from
> plain bottles, and is poured out of sight of the judges by
> stewards. The judges normally see nothing but the beer...

What you've said so far is true and was shown on the special, but that
doesn't really mean anything as far as whether the beer was store-bought or
specially made for the judging ... as they showed on the special.

> ...- no special brewing, bottling, packaging, or other
> such folderol. As for delivery, well yeah, the brewers might make
> sure the beer is a freshly delivered as possible. Specially brewed?
> I know for a fact that the clear majority of brewers bring exactly
> the same beers that they make to be bought by the general public.
>
> Nice little conspiracy theory, but that dog don't hunt.

This isn't some conspiracy theory. What I state was SAID by microbrewers on
the show, SHOWN on the show, and even one of the JUDGES that entered in his
own beer (Dark Chocolate Stout ... if I remember correctly) was shown
specially hand-bottling his own beer and stating why he's doing it.

Scott Jensen
--
Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

In article >,
Scott T. Jensen > wrote:
>"Oh, Guess" wrote:
>
>This isn't some conspiracy theory. What I state was SAID by microbrewers on
>the show, SHOWN on the show, and even one of the JUDGES that entered in his
>own beer (Dark Chocolate Stout ... if I remember correctly) was shown
>specially hand-bottling his own beer and stating why he's doing it.
>
This is exactly what I saw as well. Brewers tweaking batches until they
had one that they felt was contest worthy. I doubt this is an issue with
the big boys' beer that comprises a large proportion of GABF entries, but
is something the the micro guys do since they don't have the millions
invested in consistency that BMC does.

--NPD
--
___________________________
Nicholas P. Dempsey
Department of Sociology
University of Chicago

I think that your assumption is not correct. The "Big Boys" can tweak if
they want to, but they have long ago tweaked in the pilot brewery, found
their flavor and aroma characteristics that they want, then brew for the
general public with great consistency. If we were to accept your points as
valid, the corollary would be that the "Big Boys" know that they are selling
an inferior product, but are locked in to this product because of the need
for consistency. If the Big Boys want to change the recipe, they can. They
don't do it very much or often, because they are right where they want to be
(selling a whole boatload of beer to the masses--what they brew works for
their needs). The brewpubs and microbreweries don't have the millions
invested in consistency; their product varies from batch to batch, no matter
how much they try to keep the consistency the same. Looking at it another
way, the brewpubs and microbreweries are brewing as best as they can to fit
the style guidelines set out by the GABF for judging. All the entrants know
this--if the Big Boys don't feel that their beer meets the style guidelines
for judging, then don't enter that style category, or change the recipe.
Looking at the some of the style categories for the GABF:

American-Style Light Lager
American-Style “Light” Amber Lager
American-Style Lager
American-Style Premium Lager
American-Style Specialty Lager
Non-Alcoholic (Beer) Malt Beverage
American Lager/Ale or Cream Ale
American-Style Wheat Beer
American-Style Amber/Red Ale
Irish-Style Red Ale
Golden or Blonde Ale

These styles probably encompass the majority of the Big Boy's beer portfolio
(and comprise approx. 15% of the total style categories). They can enter
their beers in the American-Style Lager, and should do well. If they don't
do well, then they may be losing market share, because some other Big Boy is
brewing a better American-Style Lager. If they enter that same beer in the
English-Style Indian Pale Ale, they will lose. You should know what you
brew, and brew it the best you can, then enter it. The Big Boys should have
figured out how to brew it the best long ago, and are just working on
consistency. If not, then they may be losing market share.

Kevin


"nicholas peter dempsey" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Scott T. Jensen > wrote:
> >"Oh, Guess" wrote:
> >
> >This isn't some conspiracy theory. What I state was SAID by microbrewers
on
> >the show, SHOWN on the show, and even one of the JUDGES that entered in
his
> >own beer (Dark Chocolate Stout ... if I remember correctly) was shown
> >specially hand-bottling his own beer and stating why he's doing it.
> >
> This is exactly what I saw as well. Brewers tweaking batches until they
> had one that they felt was contest worthy. I doubt this is an issue with
> the big boys' beer that comprises a large proportion of GABF entries, but
> is something the the micro guys do since they don't have the millions
> invested in consistency that BMC does.
>
> --NPD
> --
> ___________________________
> Nicholas P. Dempsey
> Department of Sociology
> University of Chicago

Kevin > wrote:
>The brewpubs and microbreweries don't have the millions
>invested in consistency; their product varies from batch to batch, no matter
>how much they try to keep the consistency the same. Looking at it another
>way, the brewpubs and microbreweries are brewing as best as they can to fit
>the style guidelines set out by the GABF for judging.

I agree with much of what you said. I'm not sure I put as
much weight on the above, though. Craft breweries vary in
their ability to brew a given beer recipe consistently.
For example, I never got a lot of variation from the main
beers of Anchor, Sierra Nevada, or Rogue, to name a few.
(I've noted more variability among some smaller breweries.)
The last sentence may be true of some of the breweries
when preparing beer specifically for the GABF, but I don't
think it's true for mostsmaller breweries most of the time--
they could care less what GABF (or BJCP) guidelines say.
--
Joel Plutchak <plutchak@[...]> | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

nicholas peter dempsey > wrote:
>Brewers tweaking batches until they
>had one that they felt was contest worthy. I doubt this is an issue with
>the big boys' beer that comprises a large proportion of GABF entries, but
>is something the the micro guys do since they don't have the millions
>invested in consistency that BMC does.

FWIW, same things goes for many homebrewers who regularly
participate in competitions. You brew a kick-butt beer in a
certain style, but tend to take a little extra care when
specifically targeting competition.
--
Joel Plutchak <plutchak@[...]> | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003, Scott T. Jensen wrote:

> "Oh, Guess" wrote:
> > "Scott T. Jensen" wrote:
> > >[...] This seems more honest judging process to
> > >determine which is the best beers that us consumers can
> > >purchase than the specially brewed, bottled, packaged,
> > >and delivered beer submitted to The Great American
> > >Beer Festival.
> >
> > Eh? The beer submitted to GABF for judging is
> > wha-wha-what? The beer for judging is normally from
> > plain bottles, and is poured out of sight of the judges by
> > stewards. The judges normally see nothing but the beer...
>
> What you've said so far is true and was shown on the special, but that
> doesn't really mean anything as far as whether the beer was store-bought or
> specially made for the judging ... as they showed on the special.
>

What they showed on the special was Garrett Oliver hand bottling some of
his normally draught-only Brooklyn Brewery beers.

Scott T. Jensen > blurted:
> This isn't some conspiracy theory. What I state was SAID by
> microbrewers on the show, SHOWN on the show, and even one of the
> JUDGES that entered in his own beer (Dark Chocolate Stout ... if I
> remember correctly) was shown specially hand-bottling his own beer
> and stating why he's doing it.

Well, if you saw it on TV, it MUST be true!

fr0glet

>>>>>This seems more honest judging process to determine which is the best
beers that us consumers can purchase than the specially brewed, bottled,
packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The Great American Beer Festival.
Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so structured?

My local merchant stopped buying in Allagash lately because he said that the
local distributor was only sending him 6-month old product. If anyone had
bought Allagash here then, it would not have been fair. Any independent
purchaser for a legitimate contest would have to jet all over the country in
a short period of time--and still manage to keep the beer chilled.

On another note, I went into a local brewpub lately because their
Oktoberfest had just medalled at GABF. I tried it--it was rich and sweet.
I commented on it to the publican, and he said that THIS wasn't the
Oktoberfest that had one the medal--that this was actually the Oktoberfest
brewed at the downtown branch--and it was pretty different. Their own
branch had indeed brewed the GABF winner--but they had run out. Then in
came a wedding party. One guy came to the bar and said that all the beers
were weird here, and asked me what was good, since I had a line-up of
tasting glasses in front of me. I knew this was a no-win situation, but the
amber lager was so light it was worthless, so I recommended that one. He
ordered a weiss instead because the bride said it was light. Others came up
and started to get really ornery. They stood there stonefaced after asking
for Stoli--but all the brewpub had was Smirnoff. This was clearly a sin.
And then there was no Yukon Jack (why not just order Canadian Club and add
sugar cubes?!?). I almost suggested that they have English Leather on the
rocks, because that was the only thing they would be able to taste anyway
given how much they reeked of the stuff, but left instead, which seemed the
thing to do.

"Douglas W. Hoyt" wrote:
> Scott Jensen wrote:
> >This seems more honest judging process to determine which
> >is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
> >specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer
> >submitted to The Great American Beer Festival. Anyone
> >know of any beer contest(s) so structured?
>
> My local merchant stopped buying in Allagash lately because
> he said that the local distributor was only sending him 6-month
> old product. If anyone had bought Allagash here then, it
> would not have been fair.

I'd agree.

> Any independent purchaser for a legitimate contest would have
> to jet all over the country in a short period of time--and still
> manage to keep the beer chilled.

Or do the opposite. Have the beers bought by a trusted parties around the
country and chill-shipped to the judges so all the beers arrive within a day
or two of each other at the judging location.

Scott Jensen
--
Like a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease?
Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle.
Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...

> Or do the opposite. Have the beers bought by a trusted parties around the
> country and chill-shipped to the judges so all the beers arrive within a
day
> or two of each other at the judging location.

Or even better: Realize that beer judging, no matter how controlled the
process and how skilled the practitioners, is a highly subjective process
and merely states how well certain beers adhere to certain guidelines, and
that it's kinda daft to base one's drinking decisions on the results of
contests.

In other words, I think your proposal is much ado over nothing.

-Steve

"Steve Jackson" > wrote:
> "Scott T. Jensen" > wrote:
> > Or do the opposite. Have the beers bought by a trusted
> > parties around the country and chill-shipped to the judges
> > so all the beers arrive within a day or two of each other
> > at the judging location.
>
> Or even better: Realize that beer judging, no matter how
> controlled the process and how skilled the practitioners, is
> a highly subjective process and merely states how well
> certain beers adhere to certain guidelines, and that it's
> kinda daft to base one's drinking decisions on the results of
> contests.
>
> In other words, I think your proposal is much ado over
> nothing.

You don't care about beer contests. That's fine. It doesn't mean this
discussion is worthless though. There are many people who do care or at
least would like to know who places well in such contests. I'd just like to
know of a contest(s) that uses secretly store-bought beers as the beers that
will be judged.

Scott Jensen
--
Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

Yes the judging at the GABF is highly subjective but as a brewer who medaled
this year perhaps I can provide some insights that will allay some of
Scott's fears. I work for a packaging brewery (25,000bbls pa), that ships
to 37 states. We entered beers in 7 catagories, and received one medal. As
the individual who was responsible for making sure that our samples for
judging and the kegs for the festival floor were delivered on time I can
state catagorically that we did not brew or package special samples for the
competition. Samples for judging had to be at the AB distributorship in
Denver by Friday September 6th. For a couple of months leading up to the
festival we set aside a case from each packaging run of the beers we had
entered, and during the last week of August we had a series of tastings to
pick which samples we felt were the most representative of our products and
those were our entries. FYI each of those packaging runs was of a minimum
of 1000 cases and the rest all went out into the market place.

It may also interest you to know that judges who are also brewers are not
permitted to judge any of the catagories that they have entered.

From an industry perspective, what I would like to see as a future
development at the GABF, is to split some of the more heavily contested
catagories, eg, American Style Pale Ale 71 entries, and Americann IPA 94
entries into multiple classes, brewpubs and shipping breweries. I have no
hard data but I suspect that the majority of medals are going to the smaller
breweries with limited distribution and brew pubs. The positive side to
this is that there are a lot of brewpubs brewing some great beers, however
the converse is that many of these beers are brewed in small batches,
transfered to a serving tank and then drunk right where they are brewed. A
very different kettle of fish from brewing a beer in larger batches 50 - 100
bbls, that is going to be bottled and still taste good 60 days later when
the consumer picks it up from the store shelf on the other side of the
country.

Just a few rambling thoughts.

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...

> You don't care about beer contests. That's fine. It doesn't mean this
> discussion is worthless though. There are many people who do care or at
> least would like to know who places well in such contests. I'd just like
to
> know of a contest(s) that uses secretly store-bought beers as the beers
that
> will be judged.

I'm just pointing out that I don't see how using store-bought beer (and what
are you going to do about the huge number of draught-only beers in that
scenario?) is really going to make any difference. It's still a subjective
contest in an artificial environment that simply states a certain beer
measures up best against certain criteria. And, knowing how judging often
plays out - the biggest or bitterest beer wins 90 percent of the time - I
find the results even more worthless.

Are you actually making purchasing decisions based on judgements at beer
contests? That's what I'm saying is daft. Sure, everyone finds out about
beers they might not have otherwise via these contests, but I've seen enough
cases where an award winning beer isn't any better than a lot of similar
beers out there.

I'll try stuff out of curiosity, because I respect the brewery, because of
its reputation, because of friends' recommendations, etc. Winning a contest
is pretty low on the list. But maybe that's just me.

-Steve

Here is the other thing to think about, and this of course does not apply to
a brewpub, which serves their beer on premise. A lot of the beers made in
this country quickly leaves the control of the brewer, and is at the mercy
of the distributor and retail merchant. They are the ones who are
responsible for making sure that the beer you buy has been handled properly
and is delivered to your hands in the best possible condition. Having a
competition where beers are bought off the shelf and judged, would be more a
competition to see who is the best beer distributor or retail merchant.

I know of two stores in my town that have well-stocked beer shelves and
coolers, both deal with the same distributor, but one shop consistently has
the better-condition beers than the other, because the first shop has a
person who sole job is to rotate the stock and pull off the shelf any beer
that did not sell, and is past its flavor prime. The second shop just
leaves the old bottles on shelf, and dusts off the bottles periodically. If
you bought the beers for judging off the shelf at the second merchants
store, you would have incredibly worse beers than beers bought at the first
merchant.

I watched the GABF special, and can relate to those brewmasters that
hand-bottled and took some extra care to make sure the beer arrived to the
judging in the best possible condition. The judging is about the beer, not
how others may mistreat the beer before the consumer can get his hands (or
taste buds) on it.

Additionally, looking at the GABF rules about the beers entered for judging,
which can be found at
http://www.beertown.org/events/gabf/...m#confirmation ,
under "Entering Your Beers Into the GABF Judging", is found this
requirement: "Entries must be commercially available and brewed in the US".

So, all of these beers at the GABF should be available for the consumer
somewhere in the country, it is just a question if has been treated well
before you bought it.

Kevin

=====================================

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...
> "Douglas W. Hoyt" wrote:
> > Scott Jensen wrote:
> > >This seems more honest judging process to determine which
> > >is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
> > >specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer
> > >submitted to The Great American Beer Festival. Anyone
> > >know of any beer contest(s) so structured?
> >
> > My local merchant stopped buying in Allagash lately because
> > he said that the local distributor was only sending him 6-month
> > old product. If anyone had bought Allagash here then, it
> > would not have been fair.
>
> I'd agree.
>
> > Any independent purchaser for a legitimate contest would have
> > to jet all over the country in a short period of time--and still
> > manage to keep the beer chilled.
>
> Or do the opposite. Have the beers bought by a trusted parties around the
> country and chill-shipped to the judges so all the beers arrive within a
day
> or two of each other at the judging location.
>
> Scott Jensen
> --
> Like a cure for A.I.D.S., Alzheimer, Parkinson, & Mad Cow Disease?
> Volunteer your computer for folding-protein research for when it's idle.
> Go to http://www.distributedfolding.org/ to sign up your computer.
>
>

"Kevin" > wrote:
> Here is the other thing to think about, and this of course
> does not apply to a brewpub, which serves their beer
> on premise. A lot of the beers made in this country
> quickly leaves the control of the brewer, and is at the
> mercy of the distributor and retail merchant. They are
> the ones who are responsible for making sure that the
> beer you buy has been handled properly and is
> delivered to your hands in the best possible condition.
> Having a competition where beers are bought off the
> shelf and judged, would be more a competition to see
> who is the best beer distributor or retail merchant.

This would merely be something that my type of a beer contest would
naturally take into consideration and work to insure a level playing field.
The contest evaluating the beer distributors and retail stores. Secretly
purchasing bottles from what's considered the best distributors and retail
stores. Clearly publicly stating what standards these distributors and
stores would have to have for the contest to purchase beer from them. On
the bright side, this might improve beer distribution and retail
presentation if the contest were to give it's stamp of approval and allow
the stores to advertise this. "This retail store and its distributors are
approved by the International Honest Beer Contest. Beer bought from this
store is beer considered to be properly handled by its beer distributors and
the store itself. Because of this, beer sold in this store might be
secretly purchased and judged for IHBC." For beer connoisseurs, this could
be the thing that would make them buy their beer from one local store rather
than another.

For the judging, I would hope the contest would let the public know where
and when the winning beers were bought. For the brewers, this information
would be given to them so they know the where and when ... regardless if
they won or not.

> I watched the GABF special, and can relate to those
> brewmasters that hand-bottled and took some extra care
> to make sure the beer arrived to the judging in the best
> possible condition. The judging is about the beer, not how
> others may mistreat the beer before the consumer can get
> his hands (or taste buds) on it.

No, if we saw the same special, it clearly showed that some of the
brewmasters were making special batches (taking at least extra special care
when they're brewed) for the contest.

> So, all of these beers at the GABF should be available for
> the consumer somewhere in the country, it is just a question
> if has been treated well before you bought it.

I'd disagree. From watching the special, it has more to do with you being
luck enough to have beer from the same specially-brewed batch of beer that
was tapped for the contest. Not that the beer they normally make is the
same beer that the judges taste.

Now if there's common seasonal beers, I'd hope my type of a contest would
then be done again at these times so these seasonal beers are tasted at the
time they'd be tasted by the public. Handing out maybe something like
Winter Beers awards.

Unfortunately, as no one has brought up a contest structured as what I'm
seeking, I guess it just doesn't exist. Too bad. If I had money to throw
around, I'd start it up but I don't.

Scott Jensen
--
Peer-to-peer networking (a.k.a. file-sharing) is entertainment's future.
If you'd like to know why, read the white paper at the link below.
http://www.nonesuch.org/p2prevolution.pdf

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...
>
> This would merely be something that my type of a beer contest would
> naturally take into consideration and work to insure a level playing
field.
> The contest evaluating the beer distributors and retail stores. Secretly
> purchasing bottles from what's considered the best distributors and retail
> stores. Clearly publicly stating what standards these distributors and
> stores would have to have for the contest to purchase beer from them. On
> the bright side, this might improve beer distribution and retail
> presentation if the contest were to give it's stamp of approval and allow
> the stores to advertise this. "This retail store and its distributors are
> approved by the International Honest Beer Contest. Beer bought from this
> store is beer considered to be properly handled by its beer distributors
and
> the store itself. Because of this, beer sold in this store might be
> secretly purchased and judged for IHBC." For beer connoisseurs, this
could
> be the thing that would make them buy their beer from one local store
rather
> than another.

I agree with you 100%--but this does put the breweries at a disadvantage if
the distributors and retailers don't care squat about the proper handling of
beer. Most of these individuals approach it from the perspective of the
megaswill--which is pasturized and/or treated with products to increase
shelf life, as well as having the advantage of moving off the shelf fast.
Most retailers don't understand the fragility of most microbrewed beer, and
couldn't care a less about it either. I wish they all knew and cared, but
they don't. I'm not sure if having a contest like you advocate would change
their minds, as long as most of their business is the megabrews.

> (The GABF special) clearly showed that some of the
> brewmasters were making special batches (taking at least extra special
care
> when they're brewed) for the contest.

Like anyone who is going to have their work scrutinized more carefully on a
certain day than on an any other average day, they are taking extra special
care to do the job as perfect as possible for the event. This doesn't mean
that the recipe is different (i.e. special ingredients, etc.), but extra
care is taken to make sure the batch has as little mistakes or flaws as
possible. Compare it to an average day on any job, versus that same day
with the boss looking over your shoulder all day. I bet the day with the
boss looking over your shoulder is different than the other days (not much,
but different).

Being a homebrew judge, I would venture that the difference between the
"special batches" and the "standard batches" would be little to none, with
the little differences being minor flaws that would escape the palate of the
average consumer. Not that the average consumer has poor taste buds, but
these judges have trained their palate to pick up very subtle off flavors
and aromas, and that is what they are looking for in these beers (most all
of these beers in a given category are "good", but the judges need to rank
them best to worst--basically nit-picking subtle differences between each
beer). The average consumer would enjoy either version, and probably not
notice the difference (if any).

> Unfortunately, as no one has brought up a contest structured as what I'm
> seeking, I guess it just doesn't exist. Too bad. If I had money to throw
> around, I'd start it up but I don't.

If anyone ever managed to get a contest like that off the ground, I would be
excited to see the results, and put the results to good use in buying my
beers.

Kevin

Scott T. Jensen > wrote:
>No, if we saw the same special, it clearly showed that some of the
>brewmasters were making special batches (taking at least extra special care
>when they're brewed) for the contest.

That doesn't clash with the rules.

>I'd disagree. From watching the special, it has more to do with you being
>luck enough to have beer from the same specially-brewed batch of beer that
>was tapped for the contest.

And the same would be true of your proposed competition,
but you'd be adding purchase location into the mix. How does
that help the "average consumer?"

>Unfortunately, as no one has brought up a contest structured as what I'm
>seeking, I guess it just doesn't exist. Too bad. If I had money to throw
>around, I'd start it up but I don't.

Or maybe people who have experience with beer competitions
know what they're doing, better than some average USENET poster.
--
Joel Plutchak <plutchak@[...]> | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

>> Scott Jensen wrote:
>> >This seems more honest judging process to determine which
>> >is the best beers that us consumers can purchase...

>> Any independent purchaser for a legitimate contest would have
>> to jet all over the country in a short period of time--and still
>> manage to keep the beer chilled.
>
>Or do the opposite. Have the beers bought by a trusted parties around the
>country and chill-shipped to the judges so all the beers arrive within a day
>or two of each other at the judging location.

So you'd not only be judging the beers, but the distributors,
and the retailers. I see as much problem with that as in the
GABF method, which, though not perfect, at least attempts to
judge the beer itself.
To expand a bit, you'd potentially knock a good beer due
to the bad actions of one distribution-retailer combination.
I seriously doubt brewers would want to risk that.
--
Joel Plutchak <plutchak@[...]> | Boneyard Union of Zymurgical Zealots

"I don't like beer. I tried it once and thought it was terrible."
- Overheard at a restaurant

>>>>Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so structured?

Maybe it's better not to have an annual contest, but to do what the Beverage
Testing Institute does:
http://www.tastings.com/search_beer.lasso

Or for that matter, www.ratebeer.com !

GABF sounds like a lot of fun, though.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Douglas W. Hoyt wrote:

> >>>>Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so structured?
>
> Maybe it's better not to have an annual contest, but to do what the Beverage
> Testing Institute does:
> http://www.tastings.com/search_beer.lasso
>
> Or for that matter, www.ratebeer.com !
>

Yep, now theere's your consumer beer contest. Beers are sampled mostly as
is from store shelves and draught in bars. Of course most have the
decency not to rate a beer thats obviously past its prime or has been
mishandled, but for beers that are prone to those kinds of off-tastes, the
consumer ought to know that, and it will be reflected somewhat at
ratebeer.

Its also a large representative sample, except it doesn't really represent
people who drink beer but don't like it (i.e. the swill chuggers of the
world)

Expletive Deleted > wrote in
nn.edu:

>
>
> On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Douglas W. Hoyt wrote:
>
>> >>>>Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so structured?
>>
>> Maybe it's better not to have an annual contest, but to do what the
>> Beverage Testing Institute does:
>> http://www.tastings.com/search_beer.lasso
>>
>> Or for that matter, www.ratebeer.com !
>>
>
> Yep, now theere's your consumer beer contest. Beers are sampled
> mostly as is from store shelves and draught in bars. Of course most
> have the decency not to rate a beer thats obviously past its prime or
> has been mishandled, but for beers that are prone to those kinds of
> off-tastes, the consumer ought to know that, and it will be reflected
> somewhat at ratebeer.
>
> Its also a large representative sample, except it doesn't really
> represent people who drink beer but don't like it (i.e. the swill
> chuggers of the world)

Plus, as someone else will likely point out, Ratebeer tends to attract a
majority of people who like big, aggressive beers (including me).
Pilsners fare comparably badly against, say imperial stouts. That being
said, from a pure data standpoint, it's got the most beer-related data
points of any place on the planet I know of.
--
************************************************** ***************
Dan Iwerks thinks that the beer you're drinking probably sucks.
The fundamental problem with Solipsism is it makes me
responsible for the fact that you're a complete idiot.
************************************************** ***************

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003, it was written:

> Expletive Deleted > wrote in
> nn.edu:
>
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 12 Oct 2003, Douglas W. Hoyt wrote:
> >
> >> >>>>Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so structured?
> >>
> >> Maybe it's better not to have an annual contest, but to do what the
> >> Beverage Testing Institute does:
> >> http://www.tastings.com/search_beer.lasso
> >>
> >> Or for that matter, www.ratebeer.com !
> >>
> >
> > Yep, now theere's your consumer beer contest. Beers are sampled
> > mostly as is from store shelves and draught in bars. Of course most
> > have the decency not to rate a beer thats obviously past its prime or
> > has been mishandled, but for beers that are prone to those kinds of
> > off-tastes, the consumer ought to know that, and it will be reflected
> > somewhat at ratebeer.
> >
> > Its also a large representative sample, except it doesn't really
> > represent people who drink beer but don't like it (i.e. the swill
> > chuggers of the world)
>
> Plus, as someone else will likely point out, Ratebeer tends to attract a
> majority of people who like big, aggressive beers (including me).
> Pilsners fare comparably badly against, say imperial stouts. That being
> said, from a pure data standpoint, it's got the most beer-related data
> points of any place on the planet I know of.

yup, and even with that kind of bias, if one wants to know what the best
pilsners are, one can search by top ratings in that category and get good
information.

>>>>>> yup, and even with that kind of bias, if one wants to know what the
best pilsners are, one can search by top ratings in that category and get
good information.

True. It's still a cold shower to see all those top ratings at about 3.7 on
a 5 point scale where other styles are well into the 4's. It makes you
wonder what's wrong with those other styles!

And as regards 'big' beers, I picked up a six of Dogfish Head 60 Minute the
other day, and it is knockout. Completely delicious. Makes me weep.
It has all the flowery complexity that I like in Bell's Two-Hearted, but
with even more intricate gothic zooming, yet it scores below other IPA's
that are impenetrable walls of hops.

"Scott T. Jensen" > wrote in message
...
> After watching a Food Network special on The Great American Beer Festival,
> I'm wondering if there's a beer contest where the judges secretly buy beer
> out of stores (the brewer not knowing which store) and then use these to
> compare against each other. This seems more honest judging process to
> determine which is the best beers that us consumers can purchase than the
> specially brewed, bottled, packaged, and delivered beer submitted to The
> Great American Beer Festival. Anyone know of any beer contest(s) so
> structured?

I cannot believe you guys went through all this discussion and horseshit
when there IS such a contest. The US Beer Tasting Championship buys beers in
the store (across a fairly good-sized region; they DO also accept donated
beers from brewers) and judges them. Is it perfect? Of course not. But
Victory and Dogfish Head regularly participate in this one because there are
no fees. I supply this for informational purposes only, as I have no
interest in partaking in this thread otherwise. USBTC is at
http://www.usbtc.com

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com>
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.

>>>>>> I cannot believe you guys went through all this discussion and
horseshit when there IS such a contest. The US Beer Tasting Championship
.....

We were just trying to wake you from your slumber. Thanks for that
URL--it is a very USEful award list because these are beers that people can
actually FIND somewhere!