> Hèhè, I finally caught Don with a language mistake.
> Avec les Bons Voux de la Brasserie Dupont, it is, Voux being male.
> Incidentally, I visited the brewery last month, and I learned from Olivier
> Dedeycker that the name was more litteral than just a variation on the New
> Year beers. Originally it was a very limited brew, lagered very long
> (that, it still is), and every customer placing a serious command around
> the holiday period, got ONE complimentary bottle of this special brew. But
> demand got too strong...
>
> Cheers, Joris
STUPID Usenet Unicode. It omitted the o+e sign I carefully printed, and
changed it by an o. Typical for the Internet, an absolute disregard for any
other language than English.

Oh well, caught in my own trap ;^}
Joris

Steve Jackson Jan 8, 10:07 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.beer
From: "Steve Jackson" > - Find messages by
this author
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:07:36 -0800
Local: Sat, Jan 8 2005 10:07 pm
Subject: Brewing
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

"John Nervo" > wrote in message

ups.com...

>I recently been doing some home-brewing and am interested in opening a
> brewpub in Roanoke Virginia; I could use any knowledge and advice
that
> you might have. I am currently working on developing my own recipies
> and am brewing a Kolsch. Kolsch is a blond colored lightly hopped
beer
> origenly brewed in a town named Koln.

So, after reading through roughly 40 posts of some actual advice mixed
in
with a bunch of behind-the-keyboard bragadoccio, here are my several
cents:

1=2E Dunno how long you've been lurking around rfdb, but the beer
knowledge
level is pretty high amonst the regular posters (amongst the lurkers,
who
the hell knows?). So, we're all pretty familiar with K=F6lsch (I've had
it
several times in K=F6ln/Cologne, which btw is considerably bigger than a
town,
unless, say, Cleveland is a town). OK, I'm done with the pedantry
portion of
the program.

2=2E The highway is littered with roadkill of people who loved
homebrewing and
decided to make it a business and either hated it, burnt out, failed
miserably or gave it their best effort, but just couldn't make it work.
Go
slow and deliberately.

3=2E Whether you decide you want to look at the brewpub route or, as Lew
suggested, the beer bar route, research, research, research. And when
you're
done with that, do some more research. Good business plans - and, more
importantly, good businesses - are formed by finding a market, knowing
it
intimately, and meeting that market's needs effectively. Find out what
beers
are selling in Roanoke. Find out what's on tap at pretty much every bar
and
restaurant in town. Find out what the distributors move, and what they
even
have available. Find out if the distributors in the area even give a
flying
**** about anything other than the usual Bud/Miller/Coors (and maybe
Heineken and Guinness if they're feeling "exotic") and treat the beer
properly: you don't want to develop a reputation for selling shit beer
because all your distributors keep the three cases they get sitting out
for
a few months by the furnace. Find out the demographics of the area,
especially income and support for other "luxury" items like artisan
bakeries, non-chain restaurants, etc.

Once you've done all that research, you can begin to get a picture of
whether Roanoke has a reasonable chance of supporting such an
establishement. And then you can start to figure out what part of town
to
put it in (if you should put one in town at all). You can figure out if
you
should offer food if you're a beer bar, or what sort of food if you're
a
brewpub (when it comes to brewpubs, food is exponentially more
important
than beer; I'll get to that in a second). You can figure out how large
a
place to get. Etc.

4=2E If you go the brewpub route, make sure you either know restaurant
management amazingly well, of find yourself the best damn restuarant
manager
you can afford. And after that, find the best damn chef you can afford.
The
single biggest factor I've seen in brewpub failures is ignorance or
neglect
of the food side. Here's a secret that way too many people seem
ignorant of:
I don't care how good your beer is, I don't care if you make the most
amazing beer that's been brewed in 5000 years, you will fail, and fail
miserably, if you don't have a good restaurant operation. I know of not
one
brewpub in the entire country that succeeds without handling the food
side
well (Elysian in Seatlle is the only one off the top of my head that
may
even come close). Food is what brings people in. Food is what pays your
rent, your utilities, your staff. Beer is what gets you profit and,
especially in the first few years, pays down your capital investment.
It's
sad how many brewpubs fail because they pay so much attention to the
beer,
and then ignore the food, thinking it's OK just to throw out the usual
burgers, nachos and shitty pastas. TGI Friday's and Applebee's do that
far
better than any brewpub owner ever will, and they'll kick your ass.You
need
to offer your customers a good night out that happens to include your
beer.
They will not come to you for your beer, at least not in numbers that
are
going to allow you to stay in business very long. That's true in a
place
like Chicago or LA, and it's way more true in a place like Roanoke. You
don't need to be gourmet. But you need to offer good quality food and
some
things that are unique or especially well done.

You'll need to consider some of the same things if you go the beer bar
route, but not as much. Beer bars can survive without food. Brewpubs
cannot.

5=2E Find a niche. Find something in the market that is not being met and
it
seems like there might be a demand for, and make sure that thing isn't
exclusive to beer. One of the most brilliant things I have ever seen is
at
the Laurelwood brewpub in Portland. There's a kids' play area. While
there
are people like me who frankly can't stand kids and would therefore
avoid
the place like the plague during hours families are likely to be there,
I'm
in a distinct minority. What that play area does is make it possible
for
husbands to take the kids off of mom's hands on Saturday afternoon and
still
meet the guys for a couple beers. It makes it easier for the whole
family to
go there for dinner on Friday night. Etc. I'm not saying that's you're
niche
(although, in a southern city like Roanoke, it may not be a bad idea),
but
you need to come up with something. Again, the restaurant is what's
going to
draw 80 percent of your customers in. You need to give them a good
reason to
come there.

6=2E Remember that even if you do everything right, you could still flame
out,
and flame out bad. The restaurant and bar segment has a horrible track
record for longevity, amongst the worst for all new business startups.
That's not to say you can't make it work. It's just to say that working
your
ass off will be no guarantee. But if you make sure that a lot of that
work
is done at the research stage, and being open-minded enough to say
"this is
a bad idea" if the numbers point that way, you'll stand a much better
chance
than most of the people who open up a new shop.

7=2E Remember that there's an enormous difference between enjoying
brewing at
home and doing it every goddamn day for years. Some things are best
kept as
hobbies. Make damn sure you love the absolute hell out of brewing
before
getting into it for a living. And make sure you love running a
restaurant,
too.

-Steve=20




Steve=20

Thanks for all the great advice.

John Nervo

Steve Jackson Jan 8, 10:07 pm show options
Newsgroups: rec.food.drink.beer
From: "Steve Jackson" > - Find messages by
this author
Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:07:36 -0800
Local: Sat, Jan 8 2005 10:07 pm
Subject: Brewing
Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
original | Report Abuse

"John Nervo" > wrote in message

ups.com...

>I recently been doing some home-brewing and am interested in opening a
> brewpub in Roanoke Virginia; I could use any knowledge and advice
that
> you might have. I am currently working on developing my own recipies
> and am brewing a Kolsch. Kolsch is a blond colored lightly hopped
beer
> origenly brewed in a town named Koln.

So, after reading through roughly 40 posts of some actual advice mixed
in
with a bunch of behind-the-keyboard bragadoccio, here are my several
cents:

1=2E Dunno how long you've been lurking around rfdb, but the beer
knowledge
level is pretty high amonst the regular posters (amongst the lurkers,
who
the hell knows?). So, we're all pretty familiar with K=F6lsch (I've had
it
several times in K=F6ln/Cologne, which btw is considerably bigger than a
town,
unless, say, Cleveland is a town). OK, I'm done with the pedantry
portion of
the program.

2=2E The highway is littered with roadkill of people who loved
homebrewing and
decided to make it a business and either hated it, burnt out, failed
miserably or gave it their best effort, but just couldn't make it work.
Go
slow and deliberately.

3=2E Whether you decide you want to look at the brewpub route or, as Lew
suggested, the beer bar route, research, research, research. And when
you're
done with that, do some more research. Good business plans - and, more
importantly, good businesses - are formed by finding a market, knowing
it
intimately, and meeting that market's needs effectively. Find out what
beers
are selling in Roanoke. Find out what's on tap at pretty much every bar
and
restaurant in town. Find out what the distributors move, and what they
even
have available. Find out if the distributors in the area even give a
flying
**** about anything other than the usual Bud/Miller/Coors (and maybe
Heineken and Guinness if they're feeling "exotic") and treat the beer
properly: you don't want to develop a reputation for selling shit beer
because all your distributors keep the three cases they get sitting out
for
a few months by the furnace. Find out the demographics of the area,
especially income and support for other "luxury" items like artisan
bakeries, non-chain restaurants, etc.

Once you've done all that research, you can begin to get a picture of
whether Roanoke has a reasonable chance of supporting such an
establishement. And then you can start to figure out what part of town
to
put it in (if you should put one in town at all). You can figure out if
you
should offer food if you're a beer bar, or what sort of food if you're
a
brewpub (when it comes to brewpubs, food is exponentially more
important
than beer; I'll get to that in a second). You can figure out how large
a
place to get. Etc.

4=2E If you go the brewpub route, make sure you either know restaurant
management amazingly well, of find yourself the best damn restuarant
manager
you can afford. And after that, find the best damn chef you can afford.
The
single biggest factor I've seen in brewpub failures is ignorance or
neglect
of the food side. Here's a secret that way too many people seem
ignorant of:
I don't care how good your beer is, I don't care if you make the most
amazing beer that's been brewed in 5000 years, you will fail, and fail
miserably, if you don't have a good restaurant operation. I know of not
one
brewpub in the entire country that succeeds without handling the food
side
well (Elysian in Seatlle is the only one off the top of my head that
may
even come close). Food is what brings people in. Food is what pays your
rent, your utilities, your staff. Beer is what gets you profit and,
especially in the first few years, pays down your capital investment.
It's
sad how many brewpubs fail because they pay so much attention to the
beer,
and then ignore the food, thinking it's OK just to throw out the usual
burgers, nachos and shitty pastas. TGI Friday's and Applebee's do that
far
better than any brewpub owner ever will, and they'll kick your ass.You
need
to offer your customers a good night out that happens to include your
beer.
They will not come to you for your beer, at least not in numbers that
are
going to allow you to stay in business very long. That's true in a
place
like Chicago or LA, and it's way more true in a place like Roanoke. You
don't need to be gourmet. But you need to offer good quality food and
some
things that are unique or especially well done.

You'll need to consider some of the same things if you go the beer bar
route, but not as much. Beer bars can survive without food. Brewpubs
cannot.

5=2E Find a niche. Find something in the market that is not being met and
it
seems like there might be a demand for, and make sure that thing isn't
exclusive to beer. One of the most brilliant things I have ever seen is
at
the Laurelwood brewpub in Portland. There's a kids' play area. While
there
are people like me who frankly can't stand kids and would therefore
avoid
the place like the plague during hours families are likely to be there,
I'm
in a distinct minority. What that play area does is make it possible
for
husbands to take the kids off of mom's hands on Saturday afternoon and
still
meet the guys for a couple beers. It makes it easier for the whole
family to
go there for dinner on Friday night. Etc. I'm not saying that's you're
niche
(although, in a southern city like Roanoke, it may not be a bad idea),
but
you need to come up with something. Again, the restaurant is what's
going to
draw 80 percent of your customers in. You need to give them a good
reason to
come there.

6=2E Remember that even if you do everything right, you could still flame
out,
and flame out bad. The restaurant and bar segment has a horrible track
record for longevity, amongst the worst for all new business startups.
That's not to say you can't make it work. It's just to say that working
your
ass off will be no guarantee. But if you make sure that a lot of that
work
is done at the research stage, and being open-minded enough to say
"this is
a bad idea" if the numbers point that way, you'll stand a much better
chance
than most of the people who open up a new shop.

7=2E Remember that there's an enormous difference between enjoying
brewing at
home and doing it every goddamn day for years. Some things are best
kept as
hobbies. Make damn sure you love the absolute hell out of brewing
before
getting into it for a living. And make sure you love running a
restaurant,
too.

-Steve=20




Steve=20

Thanks for all the great advice.

John Nervo

dgs wrote:

> All-grain or extract? Don't have this book handy.

Thank your lucky stars...it's one of the worst homebrewing books ever
written.

------>Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

Denny Conn wrote:

> dgs wrote:
>
>>All-grain or extract? Don't have this book handy.
>
>
> Thank your lucky stars...it's one of the worst homebrewing books ever
> written.

If that's the case, you might want to point the OP in the direction of
some of the better-quality brewing books. TNCJOHB would be a step up
if it's that bad.

(Yeah, I know, better discussed on rec.crafts.brewing.)
--
dgs

dgs wrote:

> If that's the case, you might want to point the OP in the direction of
> some of the better-quality brewing books. TNCJOHB would be a step up
> if it's that bad.
>
> (Yeah, I know, better discussed on rec.crafts.brewing.)

Hell, I'll discuss it anytime, anywhere...but I'll pass my
recommendations on to hi.

----------->Denny


--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

John Nervo wrote:
>
> I started brewing about two years ago. I mainly concitrated on wine
> and mead I gess b/c I enjoy drinking wine and I don't like most
> commercial brews that I have tried(I am always open to trying new
> brews). I recently(Sept 04) worked a wedding reception that served
> only home-brew. The beer was great and inspired me to try a beer brew.
> I started with an "old brew" dark and rich (Brewmasters Bible-brew
> named Happy Jerry's Strong Ale). I really enjoyed that brew and ended
> up Kegging most of it to bring with me to "turkey day". It was a hit.
> Then I brewed a Tarwiben( from kit) and an IPA also from the Bible.
> Now that I have a feel for brewing I am trying to develop my own
> formulas.
>
> John Nervo
> Age 24

John, I have that book...it's not a good book at all. Lots of bad
advice and shaky recipes. When you say "The Bible", I assume you mean
Charlie P.'s book. I applaud his attitude, but there's a lot of dodgy
advice in that book, too. If you haven't already read John Palmer's How
To Brew, go to the online version at www.howtobrew and check it out.
It's "The NEW Bible"...

-------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

at www.howtobrew

Can I assume you ment www.howtobrew.com.
I will check it out thanks for the advice.

John Nervo

John Nervo wrote:
>
> at www.howtobrew
>
> Can I assume you ment www.howtobrew.com.
> I will check it out thanks for the advice.
>
> John Nervo

Yeah, that's it...sorry for the typo. Also, check in at
rec.crafts.brewing for advice from experienced brewers.

-------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

John Nervo wrote:
>
> at www.howtobrew
>
> Can I assume you ment www.howtobrew.com.
> I will check it out thanks for the advice.
>
> John Nervo

Yeah, that's it...sorry for the typo. Also, check in at
rec.crafts.brewing for advice from experienced brewers.

-------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

Steve Jackson wrote:

> "dgs" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Ya gotta learn to include quotes in your posting, even if you're using
>>Google groups. BTW, a better alternative is to get a free account
>>on news.individual.de and use a newsreader client like Firefox or
>>Agent instead.
>
>
> You know, Don, if I wanted to be you-like to you

Nobody would want to be that. Noooooooobody!

> I could jump all over your
> ass and point out that you're some sort of troglodytic half-wit

I've moved up from quarter! Thanks for the props!

> because you
> can't tell the difference between a browser like Firefox and a news/email
> client like Thunderbird.

Can too! I just chose not to.

> Yeah, they're both Mozilla, but I'm sure it's very
> confusing.

Is not! It's more like the fact that NS 7.x still includes the whole
suite as a bundled package, while the Mozilloids have decided to
separate the browser and the mail/news client into separate things.
So I'm still all old-school and Netscape-y and shit.

> But I won't do that.

Won't do what?

> Oh, and nice touch with the spelling flames elsewhere in the thread.

*squeal* Thanks!

> Those
> are *so* challenging to come up with.

They are?

> And I'm sure you feel at least a good
> inch taller now and much more attractive to women.

Only an inch? And which women in particular did you have in mind? The
ones mentioned in that Dogs Die In Hot Cars song that sounds uncannily
like XTC?

> The guy's obviously green, has only the beginnings of an idea, but I give
> him points for asking for thoughts before, say, sinking $800,000 into a
> brewery and kitchen. Hell, you should know from a brewpub owner you're
> familiar with about a three-hour drive south of you that someone who's open
> to any advice at all, instead of "fearlessly" plunging into the abyss is
> miles ahead of the game.

Oh, yeah, that brewpub owner. Also out there making friends and sharing
the love on a certain well-known web-based beer forum. It's amazing.
Almost reminds me of what it was like about five years ago in these
parts... almost.

>>So when
>>people suggest you get out there and climb up that curve, go do it!
>
> You might want to take your own advice.

Nah.
--
dgs

"Denny Conn" > wrote in message
...
>
> Yeah, that's it...sorry for the typo. Also, check in at
> rec.crafts.brewing for advice from experienced brewers.
>
Just be aware that there are a lot of FA's over there just looking to make
life miserable for newbies. ;-)

Brian

In article >, says...
>
> "Denny Conn" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Yeah, that's it...sorry for the typo. Also, check in at
> > rec.crafts.brewing for advice from experienced brewers.
> >
> Just be aware that there are a lot of FA's over there just looking to make
> life miserable for newbies. ;-)

Not to mention Hall Monitors vigilently working to expose suspected
trolls ;-)

--
Bill

Brian Lundeen wrote:

> Just be aware that there are a lot of FA's over there just looking to make
> life miserable for newbies. ;-)

That would be PROUD FAs.....

---------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

Brian Lundeen wrote:

> Just be aware that there are a lot of FA's over there just looking to make
> life miserable for newbies. ;-)

That would be PROUD FAs.....

---------->Denny
--
Life begins at 60 - 1.060, that is.

Reply to denny_at_projectoneaudio_dot_com

John Nervo > wrote:
>Wow dgs you really are an ass
>
>My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
>experiances or whatever you could maby share your own. surly you could
>share your latest trip, but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
>elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
>passion for beer. thats all .


John- No offense intended, but you're the one looking like an
idiot here. Don has already established enough cred here (and
for various of us here, in person through his and our beer
travels) to last a few lifetimes. You come off as, at best,
naiive and thin-skinned.

As for your original query, what you seem to want to do
is be a brewer at a brewpub. Starting/running a brewpub is
at least 75% managing a restaurant. The beer is just another
feature. if I were you, I'd think about getting some real
experience with brewing (maybe some Siebel courses, maybe
as an assistant brewer at a brewpub or small brewery) before
seriously considering devoting you life to the business.
After all, any nebbish with a wooden spoon can come up with
a homebrew recipe. It takes a bit more than that to run
a successful business.
--
Joel Plutchak "People who drink wine with barbecue deserve to be
plutchak@[...] jeered at and socially ostracized." - Mike Stewart

Steve Jackson > wrote:
>Hell, you should know from a brewpub owner you're
>familiar with about a three-hour drive south of you that someone who's open
>to any advice at all, instead of "fearlessly" plunging into the abyss is
>miles ahead of the game.

Oooh, good one!
--
Joel Plutchak "People who drink wine with barbecue deserve to be
plutchak@[...] jeered at and socially ostracized." - Mike Stewart

In article >, dgs > wrote:
>Denny Conn wrote:
>> dgs wrote:
>>>All-grain or extract? Don't have this book handy.
>>
>> Thank your lucky stars...it's one of the worst homebrewing books ever
>> written.
>
>If that's the case, you might want to point the OP in the direction of
>some of the better-quality brewing books. TNCJOHB would be a step up
>if it's that bad.

_Designing Great Beers_, Ray Daniels. but that's assuming
the OP has the process or brewing (from grain) down solid.
I assume not, so John Palmer's online thingy would be a better
starting piont.

>(Yeah, I know, better discussed on rec.crafts.brewing.)

Followups redirected.
--
Joel Plutchak "People who drink wine with barbecue deserve to be
plutchak@[...] jeered at and socially ostracized." - Mike Stewart

Brian Lundeen > wrote:
>"Denny Conn" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Yeah, that's it...sorry for the typo. Also, check in at
>> rec.crafts.brewing for advice from experienced brewers.
>>
>Just be aware that there are a lot of FA's over there just looking to make
>life miserable for newbies. ;-)

They're worse than the FAs here in rfdb.
--
Joel Plutchak "People who drink wine with barbecue deserve to be
plutchak@[...] jeered at and socially ostracized." - Mike Stewart