I recently been doing some home-brewing and am interested in opening a
brewpub in Roanoke Virginia; I could use any knowledge and advice that
you might have. I am currently working on developing my own recipies
and am brewing a Kolsch. Kolsch is a blond colored lightly hopped beer
origenly brewed in a town named Koln.


Happy Brewing

John Nervo
Carrboro, North Carolina

www.nervo-art.com

Please bear in mind that my website is a bit out of date. I hope to
update it soon.

John Nervo wrote:

> I recently been doing some home-brewing and am interested in opening a
> brewpub in Roanoke Virginia; I could use any knowledge and advice that
> you might have.

You'd better be doing a *hell* of a lot more research on your own than
just posting such questions to a bunch of anonymous strangers on Usenet.
Opening a brewpub, especially a nice one, gets pretty capital-intensive
in a quick hurry. As the question goes: "How do you make a small
fortune?" "Start with a large fortune, and open a brewpub."

> I am currently working on developing my own recipies
> and am brewing a Kolsch. Kolsch is a blond colored lightly hopped beer
> origenly brewed in a town named Koln.

Um, yeah. Most folks who've been posting here know about that, and
perhaps more than you might suspect. Hell, more than a few of us have,
like, *been* to Cologne (Köln auf Deutsch, nicht "Koln") and also know
that "Kölsch" is an applation controlée, meant for the top-fermented
pale-blond beers typically brewed in and around Cologne, and protected
by rules govenerning the region of production of that style.

Feel free to educate us with your experience in this regard.

Hint: there is a *hell* of a lot more to opening and running a brewpub
than "developing [your] own recipes" for beer styles. It's not an
endeavour to be taken lightly. Capitalization, business plans, volume,
non-beer aspects of the business (food, location, personnel), operating
costs ... all of these need to be taken into account, and that means
hard work and research. It also means no guarantees, as has been
evidenced by all the small breweries and brewpubs that have opened and
closed over the last 20+ years. Think hard and do your background
research, and please make sure you have the available resources,
particularly financial, to address the challenges of getting into a
brewpub venture.
--
dgs

Dgs,

Thanks for the advice. I am aware that opening any buisness involves a
number of details i.e. finance, supplyers, employees, location,
equipment etc. The reason for my post is to learn more about beer and
the buisness of brewing and selling. Yes, I do not want to go into
this venture blind. It seemed that most of the posts in this forum are
from beer loving individuals that I thought might have an interest and
knowledge of it. So hence my discussing of a current brew and some
remote plans for a possible buisness should fit in well.


John Nervo

<< > I recently been doing some home-brewing and am interested in opening a
brewpub in Roanoke Virginia; I could use any knowledge and advice that you
might have. >>
____Reply Separator_____
Go buy an old church. That's how the Church Brew started

Church Restored To Former Glory

As much painstaking effort was taken in the original construction of the
building, the same care was used when the renovation of the church and the
rectory was undertaken. Attention to detail and the reuse of existing fixtures
all help to create a spectacular atmosphere. Original pews were hand cut from
24' length and hand finished to the present 54" lengths. These "mini pews" were
intentionally designed to be longer than the tables to facilitate ease of
entry. The bar has been built from the oak planks salvaged from the shortening
of the pews. Check out some photographs.
http://www.churchbrew.com/churchphotos.html

The reddish orange hue of the flooring comes from the original Douglas Fir
floors. These floors were uncovered and meticulously restored after lying
dormant under plywood for 50 years. The original eight lanterns in the center
bay were removed, repainted gold and reinstalled after complete refurbishment.
The lanterns now illuminate the detailing of the ceiling.

The former confessional in the dining room was removed to provide a necessary
link to the kitchen. The bricks salvaged from the removal of the confessional
have been reused for the pillars on the outdoor sign, the facade on the outdoor
ramp and the facade of the new kitchen link. The other confessional remains
intact behind the bar and houses "The Church Brew Works" merchandise.
Painstaking attention to detail and the integrative reuse of existing fixtures
all help to create a spectacular atmosphere to enhance your brewpub experience.


By far, the most breathtaking element is the position of the brew house on the
altar. Because the altar was built as a centerpiece of the church, the steel
and copper tanks gleaming in the celestial blue backdrop is nothing less than
captivating. This extraordinary view is only paralleled by the quality and
taste of our beer.

Head Brewer Bryan Pearson uses his extensive knowledge of brewing to bring you
four of the finest beers you will ever drink. Our North German Style Pilsner,
Bavarian Dunkel, British Special Bitter and American Brown Ale are all hand
crafted. These "brews" are sure to please your palate as much as our unique
cuisine. The food selections draw on the culinary styles discovered throughout
the country by Chef Jason Marrone. He has created a menu as diverse as
Pittsburgh itself. And just like the city, there is something for everyone - so
come and explore!

DGS,

I have been looking back in the archives and notices that as far as I
can tell you have NEVER started your own topic. Do you acctually have
an interest in creating useful and interesting conversations or are you
just here to bitch?? Tell us about your personal and extentive beer
knowledge and experiance.

John Nervo

Looks awsome I'll try it out if I ever make it up to Lawrencevill, PA.
Thanks for the info.


John Nervo

"John Nervo" > wrote in message
> DGS,
>
> I have been looking back in the archives and notices that as far as I
> can tell you have NEVER started your own topic. Do you acctually have
> an interest in creating useful and interesting conversations or are you
> just here to bitch?? Tell us about your personal and extentive beer
> knowledge and experiance.

I don't start many topics myself, John, but I post a lot...usually in
response to topics that start out with requests for help, like YOURS. I'd
suggest you spend your Google time searching for business plan advice
instead of looking for ways to tickle Don's ass.

Starting a brewpub in Roanoke is going to take some serious education: that
is one of the most beer-dead towns I've seen in the past five years. Might
want to consider trying it in Blacksburg instead, or maybe try a beer bar in
Roanoke. Just a thought. Feel free to check the archives for what other
thoughts I've had.

--
Lew Bryson

www.LewBryson.com
Author of "New York Breweries" and "Pennsylvania Breweries," 2nd ed., both
available at <www.amazon.com> , and the upcoming "Virginia, Maryland, and
Delaware Breweries," due out in June, 2005.
The Hotmail address on this post is for newsgroups only: I don't check it,
or respond to it. Spam away.

I started brewing about two years ago. I mainly concitrated on wine
and mead I gess b/c I enjoy drinking wine and I don't like most
commercial brews that I have tried(I am always open to trying new
brews). I recently(Sept 04) worked a wedding reception that served
only home-brew. The beer was great and inspired me to try a beer brew.
I started with an "old brew" dark and rich (Brewmasters Bible-brew
named Happy Jerry's Strong Ale). I really enjoyed that brew and ended
up Kegging most of it to bring with me to "turkey day". It was a hit.
Then I brewed a Tarwiben( from kit) and an IPA also from the Bible.
Now that I have a feel for brewing I am trying to develop my own
formulas.


John Nervo
Age 24

Bryson,

You are right Roanoke is a beer dead town but currently they dont have
much choice. Mostly just small bars and reasurants that serve the same
old stuff. Which is whu I think that a New brewpub with a veriety of
quality brews would go over well. it is a city of about 90,000 people
with Hollins College and Roanoke College near by. Also Blacksburg
already has the "Balcksburg Brewing Company which is currently trying
to re-create its self as a brewpub. Please understand that I am
researching the topic and it is not that blacksburg isnt an option but
I think that if I do it properly and create good beer the peoplr from
blacksburg will drive the 30 minits it takes to get from Backsburg to
Roanoke.


Thank You for the response

John Nervo

John Nervo wrote:

> I have been looking back in the archives and notices that as far as I
> can tell you have NEVER started your own topic.

And this is relevant why, exactly? Also, I've posted under other than
just this handle in the past. Archive results are only so useful.

That, and I have a life, and don't spend a lot of it on Usenet. Some,
yes, but not so much.

> Do you acctually have
> an interest in creating useful and interesting conversations or are you
> just here to bitch??

I'm here to tell you to **** off and concentrate on the topics covered
in this newsgroup. So, **** off, and concentrate on the topics covered
in this newsgroup. You got a problem with that?

See, you come here and start asking about stuff, and people answer.
This is bacause Usenet is an open forum. Don't need to sign up or
anything. You just post. If you don't like what is posted, you pretty
much have one option: don't read it. If you don't like that nature of
Usenet, you have a similar option: don't use it. You can hang out
on the web forums if you think that will help you any more than here.

> Tell us about your personal and extentive beer
> knowledge and experiance.

I oughta tell ya, first, that I can communicate in English, so I know
how to spell "extensive" and "experience." Because I can do that, I've
been writing about beer in my region for the last six and a half years,
and also editing an industry newsletter for a while too. Also got a
web site about beer in my region, but I don't feel the need to thump
my chest and advertise it in my .sig any more ... people seem to find
it with a Google search pretty easily. I've also travelled, um,
extensively in the beer-friendly bits of the world, in Europe and
in some bits of the USA and Canada, and am familiar with a broad range
of styles. Got friends who do beer writing elsewhere too, including
a particularly good one in Austria whose friendship I value immensely.

I homebrewed for a while, then moved to smaller digs and decided it
wasn't worth the time, since I was drinking plenty as it was on visits
and road trips to various and sundry beery destinations. I know pretty
much everyone in the industry in my region, and have hung with them and
discussed issues in the trade. I've even been party to the trials and
tribulations some of them have gone through in opening and running
their own businesses in the brewing trade - and some of them are *still*
going through trials and tribulations. Some of them have also
persevered and enjoyed success and the acknowledgement of their peers
in the industry. In all these cases, though, I'm glad it wasn't my
money and my livelihood that was involved, 'cause it's been incredibly
stressful for those folks. It's great to make friends in the trade,
though; it's provided lots of grist for my writing.

So, now I've given you, a total stranger, far more info about me than
you actually deserve. Speaking of searching the archives, I note that
an archive search reveals that you have *NO* posting history at all,
save for your OP in this thread. So who the **** are you to demand of
me what my experience is? Tell us about *your* personal and _extensive_
knowledge and _experience_, Your Petulance.
--
dgs

John Nervo wrote:

> I started brewing about two years ago. I mainly concitrated on wine
> and mead I gess b/c I enjoy drinking wine and I don't like most
> commercial brews that I have tried(I am always open to trying new
> brews). I recently(Sept 04) worked a wedding reception that served
> only home-brew. The beer was great and inspired me to try a beer brew.

So let me get this straight: until last September, you'd never brewed a
beer in your life. Correct? You'd been making wine and mead (not
brewing, wine-making and mead-making) for the last couple of years.

> I started with an "old brew" dark and rich (Brewmasters Bible-brew
> named Happy Jerry's Strong Ale).

All-grain or extract? Don't have this book handy.

> I really enjoyed that brew and ended
> up Kegging most of it to bring with me to "turkey day". It was a hit.

Five-gallon batch? Ever brewed a 3-bbl batch? 7.5-bbl? More?

> Then I brewed a Tarwiben( from kit)

What the hell is that? Or is that a "Tarwebier?" That would be
Dutch- or Flemish-style wheat beer. From a kit, not all grain.

> and an IPA also from the Bible.
> Now that I have a feel for brewing I am trying to develop my own
> formulas.

From brewing beer since last October - partly from kits - you have
"a feel for brewing?" You've medaled at competitions? Gotten solid
honest critiques from respected people in the trade?

> John Nervo
> Age 24

Ah. This explains a lot. So you've brewed a few batches, they didn't
completely suck, and now you're ready to open a brewpub. Damn if youth
and enthusiasm, not to mention a touch of naïveté, ain't a cute li'l
thing. But that's not what it takes to make a buck in the brewpub biz.
--
dgs

dgs

Thanks for the reply. I am not here to insult anyone. I was just
looking for some advice and information. I find it disterbing that
most of the responces from you are just bitter. It seems to me that my
desire for information about beer is on point for the topic in this
forum. I apologize my tone but do think that I was not wrong to seek
knowledge from thoes who seem to contain more experiance and wisdom on
the subject.


John Nervo

Lew Bryson wrote:

> [...]
> I don't start many topics myself, John, but I post a lot...

Yeah, but, geez, Lew... dincha know that ya gots to originate lots o'
posts to get street cred now? Helps if you're 24 and are a mite thin-
skinned, too.

> usually in
> response to topics that start out with requests for help, like YOURS. I'd
> suggest you spend your Google time searching for business plan advice

Google for starters. Books. People in the trade. All sorts of stuff.

> instead of looking for ways to tickle Don's ass.

Ew. Now I gotta go take a shower.

> Starting a brewpub in Roanoke is going to take some serious education: that
> is one of the most beer-dead towns I've seen in the past five years.

And it's not like there isn't any money in that part of the country...
or maybe there isn't. Seems like somebody's figured that the local
trade just doesn't seem terribly likely to support a brewpub. But who
knows? Maybe someone with a pile o' cash might put paid to that.

> Might
> want to consider trying it in Blacksburg instead, or maybe try a beer bar in
> Roanoke. Just a thought. Feel free to check the archives for what other
> thoughts I've had.

Startup costs for a good beer bar certainly would be a lot less. But
the best example I can think of in southern VA is clear across the,
state: the Green Leaf in Williamsburg. Good beer selection, great
college tav. Might be a better one closer by.
--
dgs

Wow dgs you really are an ass

My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
experiances or whatever you could maby share your own. surly you could
share your latest trip, but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
passion for beer. thats all .

Also you have got to start some where.

"The GPP was in perfect shape, solid roasty
flavor with a touch of sweet malt in the finish. The Duchesse has
risen to top rank of my favorites among Belgian Oud Bruin ales, and
it, too, was in far better shape than I had any right to expect, with
a tasty symmetry of sour and sweet on the palate. I could inhale the
aromas from that beer all night long."

That is beautiful. Those few lines make me want to try Grants Perfect
Porter and Duchesse de Bourgnonne.
As far as my local go check it out @ http://www.carolinabrewery.com

John Nervo wrote:

> Wow dgs you really are an ass

Aww. Stop, Johnny, you're breaking my heart. Now I'll have to drown
my sorrows. Thank $DEITY I've laid in an assload of great beer, not
least from a recent short trip to Franconia.

> My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
> experiances or whatever you could maby share your own.

I could even compose a sentence in English! And I've shared stuff of
my own in the past.

Like I said: this is Usenet. Cope.

> surly you could
> share your latest trip

Sure, sport. How much you willing to pay? 'Cause if you aren't, I've
found someone else who will.

> but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
> elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
> passion for beer. thats all .

You asked for opinions about opening a brewpub, and came in here
brimming over with youthful enthusiasm and naïveté. You got a response.

Deal.

ObLastNight'sBeers: Grant's Perfect Porter and Duchesse de Bourgnonne,
both on tap at my local. The GPP was in perfect shape, solid roasty
flavor with a touch of sweet malt in the finish. The Duchesse has
risen to top rank of my favorites among Belgian Oud Bruin ales, and
it, too, was in far better shape than I had any right to expect, with
a tasty symmetry of sour and sweet on the palate. I could inhale the
aromas from that beer all night long. The local is doing Dark Beer
January this month, so I'll have to scamper back for more of their
goodies. And your local is serving ... what, exactly?
--
dgs

John Nervo wrote:

> Thanks for the reply. I am not here to insult anyone. I was just
> looking for some advice and information.

You got some. Not good enough for you? Maybe you need to get out more.

> I find it disterbing that
> most of the responces from you are just bitter.

Awww. There goes my reputation for sweetness and light and shit.

> It seems to me that my
> desire for information about beer is on point for the topic in this
> forum. I apologize my tone but do think that I was not wrong to seek
> knowledge from thoes who seem to contain more experiance and wisdom on
> the subject.

You weren't wrong. However, in a forum based on the free exchange of
*OPINIONS* (I spelled that out in big letters, 'cause you don't seem to
grasp it real well), you're bound to see all sorts of replies to your
questions. Some of them may be what you want to hear. Some might not.

And somewhere down the road, when you hear of all the hearache and pain
some other guy went through, you might even be relieved that you didn't
jump into the brewpub business straight away. It isn't for everyone,
not even someone who's just learned to make a few batches of beer at
home and thinks it would be a really swell thing to do for a living.
There are plenty of brewers out there who like what they do for a
living, but for a lot of them, they'll readily acknowledge that one
truth of the business is that you don't go into brewing for the money.
At least one couple I know personally learned that so very much the
hard way, not only closing down a brewery that turned out some excellent
beers, but losing their home in the process.
--
dgs

John Nervo wrote:

> Thanks for the reply. I am not here to insult anyone. I was just
> looking for some advice and information.

You got some. Not good enough for you? Maybe you need to get out more.

> I find it disterbing that
> most of the responces from you are just bitter.

Awww. There goes my reputation for sweetness and light and shit.

> It seems to me that my
> desire for information about beer is on point for the topic in this
> forum. I apologize my tone but do think that I was not wrong to seek
> knowledge from thoes who seem to contain more experiance and wisdom on
> the subject.

You weren't wrong. However, in a forum based on the free exchange of
*OPINIONS* (I spelled that out in big letters, 'cause you don't seem to
grasp it real well), you're bound to see all sorts of replies to your
questions. Some of them may be what you want to hear. Some might not.

And somewhere down the road, when you hear of all the hearache and pain
some other guy went through, you might even be relieved that you didn't
jump into the brewpub business straight away. It isn't for everyone,
not even someone who's just learned to make a few batches of beer at
home and thinks it would be a really swell thing to do for a living.
There are plenty of brewers out there who like what they do for a
living, but for a lot of them, they'll readily acknowledge that one
truth of the business is that you don't go into brewing for the money.
At least one couple I know personally learned that so very much the
hard way, not only closing down a brewery that turned out some excellent
beers, but losing their home in the process.
--
dgs

John Nervo wrote:

> You are right Roanoke is a beer dead town but currently they dont have
> much choice. Mostly just small bars and reasurants that serve the same
> old stuff. Which is whu I think that a New brewpub with a veriety of
> quality brews would go over well.

But Lew pointed out an even better alternative, and one not so nearly
capital-intensive as opening a brewpub: open up a bar specializing in
selling a really good selection of regional beers from small breweries.
You got 'em in Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania... of course, it might
be a challenge to get 'em from the local distributors, but that in
itself would be part of a useful education regarding the beer trade
where you live. The very act of working in a bar or restaurant and
gettin and idea of what the work is like, and what people expect, is
also an education in itself.

> it is a city of about 90,000 people
> with Hollins College and Roanoke College near by. Also Blacksburg
> already has the "Balcksburg Brewing Company which is currently trying
> to re-create its self as a brewpub. Please understand that I am
> researching the topic and it is not that blacksburg isnt an option but
> I think that if I do it properly and create good beer the peoplr from
> blacksburg will drive the 30 minits it takes to get from Backsburg to
> Roanoke.

Do people drive the 30 _minutes_ to Blacksburg to drink good beer there?
Do you? FTM, have you considered going out to Blacksburg Brewing and
asking if you could learn how to brew on a professional basis there?
You might learn things that might either confirm your interest in going
professional, or change your mind about the trade entirely. If you
think it possible that people might drive half an hour to drink whatever
you brew, turn it around: would you drive half an hour - or more - to
go apprentice somewhere and learn the trade?

Have you considered going elsewhere to learn - really learn, in a
classroom setting - about beer and brewing, like at the Siebel
Institute in Chicago, or at UC Davis's brewing programs in California?
--
dgs

"dgs" > wrote in message
...
> John Nervo wrote:
>
> Um, yeah. Most folks who've been posting here know about that, and
> perhaps more than you might suspect. Hell, more than a few of us have,
> like, *been* to Cologne (Köln auf Deutsch, nicht "Koln") and also know
> that "Kölsch" is an applation controlée, meant for the top-fermented
> pale-blond beers typically brewed in and around Cologne, and protected
> by rules govenerning the region of production of that style.

He could always slack off on production, produce a mildly cloudy
pale beer with a hint of wheat, and call it a Bonn-styled "Kölschbier".
Putting a "Kölsch" on in Roanoke would work if he called it a "Blonde
Ale."

BTW, dgs - Did you get a chance to stop into Tangletown for the
cask Bi-Frost this year?

But Lew pointed out an even better alternative, and one not so nearly
capital-intensive as opening a brewpub: open up a bar specializing in
selling a really good selection of regional beers from small breweries.
You got 'em in Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania... of course, it might
be a challenge to get 'em from the local distributors, but that in
itself would be part of a useful education regarding the beer trade
where you live. The very act of working in a bar or restaurant and
gettin and idea of what the work is like, and what people expect, is
also an education in itself.


True, and a good point. This is the type of constructive criticism and
information that I was looking for. I had not thought about opening a
bar with good micro breweries represented. And certily getting
educated is a must.

Do people drive the 30 _minutes_ to Blacksburg to drink good beer
there?
Do you? FTM, have you considered going out to Blacksburg Brewing and
asking if you could learn how to brew on a professional basis there?
You might learn things that might either confirm your interest in going
professional, or change your mind about the trade entirely. If you
think it possible that people might drive half an hour to drink
whatever
you brew, turn it around: would you drive half an hour - or more - to
go apprentice somewhere and learn the trade?

Have you considered going elsewhere to learn - really learn, in a
classroom setting - about beer and brewing, like at the Siebel
Institute in Chicago, or at UC Davis's brewing programs in California?

I agree that a 30 minut drive is not good. Currently people from
Roanoke do the drive b/c of the lack of decient beer and entertainment
in general. I added the bit about the distance b/c blacksburg has an
established brewery (currently re-opening as a brewpub) and I feel that
It would be, buisness wise, smarter to open in Roanoke where the
population is about double that of Blacksburg and also if properly done
would provide Roanoke with a closer brewpub with good beer and
entertainment.(Sorry about rhe poor punctuation and spelling)
I didnot know that there was beer college. I will certinally look into
it


Respectfully

John Nervo

"John Nervo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wow dgs you really are an ass
>
> My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
> experiances or whatever you could maby share your own. surly you could
> share your latest trip, but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
> elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
> passion for beer. thats all .

Actually, Don's not an ass in the least. . . I figure he's spent a few
minutes
trying to educate you on the biz. However, since you seem to be bound
and determined to flaily about and not pay attention to the opinions you've
solicited, I'm sure you know what's best.

Look, junior, take a lesson from Lew and Don. If you want to play in
the beer biz, then you should probably do some heavy research. Roanoke
isn't even going to support a multi-tap. You want to open a taproom in
Roanoke? Make lots of room for MGD, AB products, etc. That's the
reality. The profit margin to be made off of beer geeks is razor thin -
even
in robust markets. Don't go ****ing on Don because you came off with
a half-baked idea.

P.S. - If you want to search for original posts from me, you might want
to go back to the cfv that started this newsgroup. . .

"John Nervo" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wow dgs you really are an ass
>
> My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
> experiances or whatever you could maby share your own. surly you could
> share your latest trip, but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
> elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
> passion for beer. thats all .

Actually, Don's not an ass in the least. . . I figure he's spent a few
minutes
trying to educate you on the biz. However, since you seem to be bound
and determined to flaily about and not pay attention to the opinions you've
solicited, I'm sure you know what's best.

Look, junior, take a lesson from Lew and Don. If you want to play in
the beer biz, then you should probably do some heavy research. Roanoke
isn't even going to support a multi-tap. You want to open a taproom in
Roanoke? Make lots of room for MGD, AB products, etc. That's the
reality. The profit margin to be made off of beer geeks is razor thin -
even
in robust markets. Don't go ****ing on Don because you came off with
a half-baked idea.

P.S. - If you want to search for original posts from me, you might want
to go back to the cfv that started this newsgroup. . .

"dgs" > wrote in message
...

> ObLastNight'sBeers: Grant's Perfect Porter and Duchesse de Bourgnonne,
> both on tap at my local. The GPP was in perfect shape, solid roasty
> flavor with a touch of sweet malt in the finish. The Duchesse has
> risen to top rank of my favorites among Belgian Oud Bruin ales, and
> it, too, was in far better shape than I had any right to expect, with
> a tasty symmetry of sour and sweet on the palate. I could inhale the
> aromas from that beer all night long. The local is doing Dark Beer
> January this month, so I'll have to scamper back for more of their
> goodies. And your local is serving ... what, exactly?

I'm sure the answer's going to be "yes," but did you get a chance
to try to the Dupont (not the saison) draught beer at Tangletown
recently. Les Bonne Veux, or somesuch. . . Jesus H. TapDancing
Christ that's a great beer.

"dgs" > wrote in message
...
> John Nervo wrote:
>
>> I started brewing about two years ago. I mainly concitrated on wine
>> and mead I gess b/c I enjoy drinking wine and I don't like most
>> commercial brews that I have tried(I am always open to trying new
>> brews). I recently(Sept 04) worked a wedding reception that served
>> only home-brew. The beer was great and inspired me to try a beer brew.
>
> So let me get this straight: until last September, you'd never brewed a
> beer in your life. Correct? You'd been making wine and mead (not
> brewing, wine-making and mead-making) for the last couple of years.

<Snip>

Don -

Fish, barrel, large bore rifle. . .

And to think, I've skipped reading rfdb for months. Hopefully, this guy is
a troll, and we've all been drawn in. The alternative is too horrifying to
consider.

Juan Harry Boosh wrote:

Heh.

> "dgs" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>John Nervo wrote:
>>
>>Um, yeah. Most folks who've been posting here know about that, and
>>perhaps more than you might suspect. Hell, more than a few of us have,
>>like, *been* to Cologne (Köln auf Deutsch, nicht "Koln") and also know
>>that "Kölsch" is an applation controlée, meant for the top-fermented
>>pale-blond beers typically brewed in and around Cologne, and protected
>>by rules govenerning the region of production of that style.
>
> He could always slack off on production, produce a mildly cloudy
> pale beer with a hint of wheat, and call it a Bonn-styled "Kölschbier".

Heh. "Bönnsch."

> Putting a "Kölsch" on in Roanoke would work if he called it a "Blonde
> Ale."

Damn if you didn't hit that nail straight on its widdle haid. Why, I
believe there are more than a couple of brewpubs scattered about this
fine nation of our which have done pretty much just that.

> BTW, dgs - Did you get a chance to stop into Tangletown for the
> cask Bi-Frost this year?

So far, no. Are you saying it's worth the drive? 'Cause I don't
live so close to there any more. I'm closer to the Elysian. Not
that it wouldn't be worth a drive up, mind you ... hmm. I just
might have a plan for this evening.
--
dgs

"dgs" > wrote in message
...

> So far, no. Are you saying it's worth the drive? 'Cause I don't
> live so close to there any more. I'm closer to the Elysian. Not
> that it wouldn't be worth a drive up, mind you ... hmm. I just
> might have a plan for this evening.

If you get there on a night when Heather is working the bar, it's
more than worth the drive. The food is good, but not great. . .
The beers are all what you'd expect from Elysian. . . But, The
Heather Show is definitely worth the drive.

DGS wrote:

> Let alone a brewpub, unless someone has *really* deep pockets and is
> willing to watch a lot of money swirl down the drain.

I'll be sure to contact the original poster and offer to invest in his
surefire venture. . .

> And most of all, you gotta know your market. Maybe there is room for
> a specialty beer bar in Roanoke, VA. Maybe, if enough people are
> weaned off BudMillOors there, they'll go for something with a little
> more robustness (robusticity?) and flavor. Maybe. But somehow, I
> wouldn't lay huge bags o' bucks on it.

I wouldn't even bet on a successful venture with a specialty beer
bar in Charlottesville - and they have UVA as a built in clientele.
Truth be told, Virginia, regardless of where you ware, just isn't
friendly to beer-themed rooms. The best one I've found is "Green
Leaf" down in Williamsburg, and they are always running on the
thin edge of the margin where it comes to beer.

> Yeah, but what have you contributed? What? C'mon, the world belongs
> to youth, brimming with happy, clueless enthusiasm, not tired, wizened,
> cynical old RFKIA beer geeks on Usenet.

I almost feel bad about being old, wizened, and testy. Guess I'll drown
my sorrows with a trip to Victory next week. Who knows? I might
even throw caution to the wind and stop in for a beer or two at Monk's.

DGS wrote:

> Let alone a brewpub, unless someone has *really* deep pockets and is
> willing to watch a lot of money swirl down the drain.

I'll be sure to contact the original poster and offer to invest in his
surefire venture. . .

> And most of all, you gotta know your market. Maybe there is room for
> a specialty beer bar in Roanoke, VA. Maybe, if enough people are
> weaned off BudMillOors there, they'll go for something with a little
> more robustness (robusticity?) and flavor. Maybe. But somehow, I
> wouldn't lay huge bags o' bucks on it.

I wouldn't even bet on a successful venture with a specialty beer
bar in Charlottesville - and they have UVA as a built in clientele.
Truth be told, Virginia, regardless of where you ware, just isn't
friendly to beer-themed rooms. The best one I've found is "Green
Leaf" down in Williamsburg, and they are always running on the
thin edge of the margin where it comes to beer.

> Yeah, but what have you contributed? What? C'mon, the world belongs
> to youth, brimming with happy, clueless enthusiasm, not tired, wizened,
> cynical old RFKIA beer geeks on Usenet.

I almost feel bad about being old, wizened, and testy. Guess I'll drown
my sorrows with a trip to Victory next week. Who knows? I might
even throw caution to the wind and stop in for a beer or two at Monk's.

Juan Harry Boosh wrote:

> "John Nervo" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Wow dgs you really are an ass
>>
>>My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
>>experiances or whatever you could maby share your own. surly you could
>>share your latest trip, but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
>>elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
>>passion for beer. thats all .
>
> Actually, Don's not an ass in the least. . .

You take that back!!

> I figure he's spent a few
> minutes
> trying to educate you on the biz.

I bear my burdens so lightly, but burdens they are.

> However, since you seem to be bound
> and determined to flaily about and not pay attention to the opinions you've
> solicited, I'm sure you know what's best.

..sigquote here, getcher .sigquote here!

> Look, junior, take a lesson from Lew and Don. If you want to play in
> the beer biz, then you should probably do some heavy research.

Maybe if we all get together and sing this in three-part harmony with
synthesizers and lasers ... ? I know for a fact that Lew can carry one
hell of a tune.

> Roanoke
> isn't even going to support a multi-tap.

Let alone a brewpub, unless someone has *really* deep pockets and is
willing to watch a lot of money swirl down the drain.

> You want to open a taproom in
> Roanoke? Make lots of room for MGD, AB products, etc. That's the
> reality. The profit margin to be made off of beer geeks is razor thin -
> even
> in robust markets.

Yep. You don't go into the beer biz - serving it or making it - to
get rich quick, or even at all. I believe it was a wise ol' pub-
owner in Portland (the one in Oregon, folks) that suggested it was
far more profitable to be a property-owner leasing space to pub-
keepers, than to actually be a pub-keeper.

And most of all, you gotta know your market. Maybe there is room for
a specialty beer bar in Roanoke, VA. Maybe, if enough people are
weaned off BudMillOors there, they'll go for something with a little
more robustness (robusticity?) and flavor. Maybe. But somehow, I
wouldn't lay huge bags o' bucks on it.

> Don't go ****ing on Don because you came off with
> a half-baked idea.

Jeez, there's my third shower today. Will you people just stop?!?

> P.S. - If you want to search for original posts from me, you might want
> to go back to the cfv that started this newsgroup. . .

Yeah, but what have you contributed? What? C'mon, the world belongs
to youth, brimming with happy, clueless enthusiasm, not tired, wizened,
cynical old RFKIA beer geeks on Usenet.
--
dgs

Juan Harry Boosh wrote:

> "John Nervo" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>
>>Wow dgs you really are an ass
>>
>>My point was that maby instead of picking apart other peoples ideas,
>>experiances or whatever you could maby share your own. surly you could
>>share your latest trip, but not in responce or rebuttal to someone
>>elces efforts but as your own. Hell I tought you might even share tour
>>passion for beer. thats all .
>
> Actually, Don's not an ass in the least. . .

You take that back!!

> I figure he's spent a few
> minutes
> trying to educate you on the biz.

I bear my burdens so lightly, but burdens they are.

> However, since you seem to be bound
> and determined to flaily about and not pay attention to the opinions you've
> solicited, I'm sure you know what's best.

..sigquote here, getcher .sigquote here!

> Look, junior, take a lesson from Lew and Don. If you want to play in
> the beer biz, then you should probably do some heavy research.

Maybe if we all get together and sing this in three-part harmony with
synthesizers and lasers ... ? I know for a fact that Lew can carry one
hell of a tune.

> Roanoke
> isn't even going to support a multi-tap.

Let alone a brewpub, unless someone has *really* deep pockets and is
willing to watch a lot of money swirl down the drain.

> You want to open a taproom in
> Roanoke? Make lots of room for MGD, AB products, etc. That's the
> reality. The profit margin to be made off of beer geeks is razor thin -
> even
> in robust markets.

Yep. You don't go into the beer biz - serving it or making it - to
get rich quick, or even at all. I believe it was a wise ol' pub-
owner in Portland (the one in Oregon, folks) that suggested it was
far more profitable to be a property-owner leasing space to pub-
keepers, than to actually be a pub-keeper.

And most of all, you gotta know your market. Maybe there is room for
a specialty beer bar in Roanoke, VA. Maybe, if enough people are
weaned off BudMillOors there, they'll go for something with a little
more robustness (robusticity?) and flavor. Maybe. But somehow, I
wouldn't lay huge bags o' bucks on it.

> Don't go ****ing on Don because you came off with
> a half-baked idea.

Jeez, there's my third shower today. Will you people just stop?!?

> P.S. - If you want to search for original posts from me, you might want
> to go back to the cfv that started this newsgroup. . .

Yeah, but what have you contributed? What? C'mon, the world belongs
to youth, brimming with happy, clueless enthusiasm, not tired, wizened,
cynical old RFKIA beer geeks on Usenet.
--
dgs

And you've gotta be willing to learn. It's pretty obvious you're a
rank beginner, and you've got a steep learning curve to climb. So when
people suggest you get out there and climb up that curve, go do it!


Thanks for the advice. I am here to learn and am going to "climb up
that curve".

John Nervo wrote:

> Also you have got to start some where.

Ya gotta learn to include quotes in your posting, even if you're using
Google groups. BTW, a better alternative is to get a free account
on news.individual.de and use a newsreader client like Firefox or
Agent instead.

And you've gotta be willing to learn. It's pretty obvious you're a
rank beginner, and you've got a steep learning curve to climb. So when
people suggest you get out there and climb up that curve, go do it!
--
dgs

Juan Harry Boosh wrote:

> "dgs" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>ObLastNight'sBeers: Grant's Perfect Porter and Duchesse de Bourgnonne,
>>both on tap at my local. The GPP was in perfect shape, solid roasty
>>flavor with a touch of sweet malt in the finish. The Duchesse has
>>risen to top rank of my favorites among Belgian Oud Bruin ales, and
>>it, too, was in far better shape than I had any right to expect, with
>>a tasty symmetry of sour and sweet on the palate. I could inhale the
>>aromas from that beer all night long. The local is doing Dark Beer
>>January this month, so I'll have to scamper back for more of their
>>goodies. And your local is serving ... what, exactly?
>
>
> I'm sure the answer's going to be "yes," but did you get a chance
> to try to the Dupont (not the saison) draught beer at Tangletown
> recently.

I regret (a bit) that I didn't. However, I hold as much, if not
more, regard for bottle-conditioned Dupont beers as for what comes
out of the tap, and ...

> Les Bonne Veux, or somesuch. . .

Avec les Bonnes Veux or summat, yeah. Had some earlier last year,
and, well, ****ING GOOD. Again. You know the drill with those
Dupont beers - it's not just that complex of flavors, spicy and
complex on top of that malt, it's that indescribably filling,
almost "fluffy" mouthfeel. Me heart this beer.

> Jesus H. TapDancing
> Christ that's a great beer.

I violently agree with this psot.
--
dgs

"dgs" > wrote in message
...

> Ya gotta learn to include quotes in your posting, even if you're using
> Google groups. BTW, a better alternative is to get a free account
> on news.individual.de and use a newsreader client like Firefox or
> Agent instead.

You know, Don, if I wanted to be you-like to you, I could jump all over your
ass and point out that you're some sort of troglodytic half-wit because you
can't tell the difference between a browser like Firefox and a news/email
client like Thunderbird. Yeah, they're both Mozilla, but I'm sure it's very
confusing.

But I won't do that.

Oh, and nice touch with the spelling flames elsewhere in the thread. Those
are *so* challenging to come up with. And I'm sure you feel at least a good
inch taller now and much more attractive to women.

The guy's obviously green, has only the beginnings of an idea, but I give
him points for asking for thoughts before, say, sinking $800,000 into a
brewery and kitchen. Hell, you should know from a brewpub owner you're
familiar with about a three-hour drive south of you that someone who's open
to any advice at all, instead of "fearlessly" plunging into the abyss is
miles ahead of the game.

> And you've gotta be willing to learn.

Usually asking questions is the first really, really good sign of being
willing to learn. Sort of like the guy did when he first posted.

> It's pretty obvious you're a
> rank beginner, and you've got a steep learning curve to climb.

Yeah, it is. Your schools may have been different, but the generally
recognized approach to help people negotiate those curves is not to jump up
their ass for simply posing a question.

> So when
> people suggest you get out there and climb up that curve, go do it!

You might want to take your own advice.

-Steve

"John Nervo" > wrote in message
ups.com...

>I recently been doing some home-brewing and am interested in opening a
> brewpub in Roanoke Virginia; I could use any knowledge and advice that
> you might have. I am currently working on developing my own recipies
> and am brewing a Kolsch. Kolsch is a blond colored lightly hopped beer
> origenly brewed in a town named Koln.

So, after reading through roughly 40 posts of some actual advice mixed in
with a bunch of behind-the-keyboard bragadoccio, here are my several cents:

1. Dunno how long you've been lurking around rfdb, but the beer knowledge
level is pretty high amonst the regular posters (amongst the lurkers, who
the hell knows?). So, we're all pretty familiar with Kölsch (I've had it
several times in Köln/Cologne, which btw is considerably bigger than a town,
unless, say, Cleveland is a town). OK, I'm done with the pedantry portion of
the program.

2. The highway is littered with roadkill of people who loved homebrewing and
decided to make it a business and either hated it, burnt out, failed
miserably or gave it their best effort, but just couldn't make it work. Go
slow and deliberately.

3. Whether you decide you want to look at the brewpub route or, as Lew
suggested, the beer bar route, research, research, research. And when you're
done with that, do some more research. Good business plans - and, more
importantly, good businesses - are formed by finding a market, knowing it
intimately, and meeting that market's needs effectively. Find out what beers
are selling in Roanoke. Find out what's on tap at pretty much every bar and
restaurant in town. Find out what the distributors move, and what they even
have available. Find out if the distributors in the area even give a flying
**** about anything other than the usual Bud/Miller/Coors (and maybe
Heineken and Guinness if they're feeling "exotic") and treat the beer
properly: you don't want to develop a reputation for selling shit beer
because all your distributors keep the three cases they get sitting out for
a few months by the furnace. Find out the demographics of the area,
especially income and support for other "luxury" items like artisan
bakeries, non-chain restaurants, etc.

Once you've done all that research, you can begin to get a picture of
whether Roanoke has a reasonable chance of supporting such an
establishement. And then you can start to figure out what part of town to
put it in (if you should put one in town at all). You can figure out if you
should offer food if you're a beer bar, or what sort of food if you're a
brewpub (when it comes to brewpubs, food is exponentially more important
than beer; I'll get to that in a second). You can figure out how large a
place to get. Etc.

4. If you go the brewpub route, make sure you either know restaurant
management amazingly well, of find yourself the best damn restuarant manager
you can afford. And after that, find the best damn chef you can afford. The
single biggest factor I've seen in brewpub failures is ignorance or neglect
of the food side. Here's a secret that way too many people seem ignorant of:
I don't care how good your beer is, I don't care if you make the most
amazing beer that's been brewed in 5000 years, you will fail, and fail
miserably, if you don't have a good restaurant operation. I know of not one
brewpub in the entire country that succeeds without handling the food side
well (Elysian in Seatlle is the only one off the top of my head that may
even come close). Food is what brings people in. Food is what pays your
rent, your utilities, your staff. Beer is what gets you profit and,
especially in the first few years, pays down your capital investment. It's
sad how many brewpubs fail because they pay so much attention to the beer,
and then ignore the food, thinking it's OK just to throw out the usual
burgers, nachos and shitty pastas. TGI Friday's and Applebee's do that far
better than any brewpub owner ever will, and they'll kick your ass.You need
to offer your customers a good night out that happens to include your beer.
They will not come to you for your beer, at least not in numbers that are
going to allow you to stay in business very long. That's true in a place
like Chicago or LA, and it's way more true in a place like Roanoke. You
don't need to be gourmet. But you need to offer good quality food and some
things that are unique or especially well done.

You'll need to consider some of the same things if you go the beer bar
route, but not as much. Beer bars can survive without food. Brewpubs cannot.

5. Find a niche. Find something in the market that is not being met and it
seems like there might be a demand for, and make sure that thing isn't
exclusive to beer. One of the most brilliant things I have ever seen is at
the Laurelwood brewpub in Portland. There's a kids' play area. While there
are people like me who frankly can't stand kids and would therefore avoid
the place like the plague during hours families are likely to be there, I'm
in a distinct minority. What that play area does is make it possible for
husbands to take the kids off of mom's hands on Saturday afternoon and still
meet the guys for a couple beers. It makes it easier for the whole family to
go there for dinner on Friday night. Etc. I'm not saying that's you're niche
(although, in a southern city like Roanoke, it may not be a bad idea), but
you need to come up with something. Again, the restaurant is what's going to
draw 80 percent of your customers in. You need to give them a good reason to
come there.

6. Remember that even if you do everything right, you could still flame out,
and flame out bad. The restaurant and bar segment has a horrible track
record for longevity, amongst the worst for all new business startups.
That's not to say you can't make it work. It's just to say that working your
ass off will be no guarantee. But if you make sure that a lot of that work
is done at the research stage, and being open-minded enough to say "this is
a bad idea" if the numbers point that way, you'll stand a much better chance
than most of the people who open up a new shop.

7. Remember that there's an enormous difference between enjoying brewing at
home and doing it every goddamn day for years. Some things are best kept as
hobbies. Make damn sure you love the absolute hell out of brewing before
getting into it for a living. And make sure you love running a restaurant,
too.

-Steve

>
>> Les Bonne Veux, or somesuch. . .
>
> Avec les Bonnes Veux or summat, yeah. Had some earlier last year,
> and, well, ****ING GOOD. Again. You know the drill with those
> Dupont beers - it's not just that complex of flavors, spicy and
> complex on top of that malt, it's that indescribably filling,
> almost "fluffy" mouthfeel. Me heart this beer.
>

:-P
Hèhè, I finally caught Don with a language mistake.
Avec les Bons Voux de la Brasserie Dupont, it is, Voux being male.
Incidentally, I visited the brewery last month, and I learned from Olivier
Dedeycker that the name was more litteral than just a variation on the New
Year beers. Originally it was a very limited brew, lagered very long (that,
it still is), and every customer placing a serious command around the
holiday period, got ONE complimentary bottle of this special brew. But
demand got too strong...

Cheers, Joris

>
>> Les Bonne Veux, or somesuch. . .
>
> Avec les Bonnes Veux or summat, yeah. Had some earlier last year,
> and, well, ****ING GOOD. Again. You know the drill with those
> Dupont beers - it's not just that complex of flavors, spicy and
> complex on top of that malt, it's that indescribably filling,
> almost "fluffy" mouthfeel. Me heart this beer.
>

:-P
Hèhè, I finally caught Don with a language mistake.
Avec les Bons Voux de la Brasserie Dupont, it is, Voux being male.
Incidentally, I visited the brewery last month, and I learned from Olivier
Dedeycker that the name was more litteral than just a variation on the New
Year beers. Originally it was a very limited brew, lagered very long (that,
it still is), and every customer placing a serious command around the
holiday period, got ONE complimentary bottle of this special brew. But
demand got too strong...

Cheers, Joris

> Hèhè, I finally caught Don with a language mistake.
> Avec les Bons Voux de la Brasserie Dupont, it is, Voux being male.
> Incidentally, I visited the brewery last month, and I learned from Olivier
> Dedeycker that the name was more litteral than just a variation on the New
> Year beers. Originally it was a very limited brew, lagered very long
> (that, it still is), and every customer placing a serious command around
> the holiday period, got ONE complimentary bottle of this special brew. But
> demand got too strong...
>
> Cheers, Joris
STUPID Usenet Unicode. It omitted the o+e sign I carefully printed, and
changed it by an o. Typical for the Internet, an absolute disregard for any
other language than English.

Oh well, caught in my own trap ;^}
Joris