I've been using Carls, I think that's what it was called, starter for
the past 5 years or so. It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
texture, crumb great crust and no sourness. I use a little rye in the
starter and about 1.5 ounces in the bread itself. That's along with
14 oz of bread flour. Hydration is a little under 68%. When I first
mix the flour starter and water, I autolyse for an hour then add
salt. I fold 3-4 times over a couple of hours and then form the loaf,
letting it sit a room temp. for an hour or so, before putting it in
the refridgerator for the night. Next day I take it out and let it
warm up for 2.5-3 hours, sometimes using the oven's bread proofing
setting for the last half hour. I preheat the oven to 550 and then
bake for 15 minutes at 465, pouring hot water in a preheated pan when
I put the bread in and spritzing the oven with spray as well. After
15 min. I turn the temp down to 450, cover the bread with tin foil and
bake for another 50 or so minutes. Wow that's a lot of explaining to
say why am I not getting any sourness in my bread. Every once in a
while there's a hint, but basically nothing. Do I need to get another
starter. The loaves look great and actually taste great, but I want
that tartness. I tried citric acid once, but really didn't like the
flavor. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Monte wrote:
> I've been using Carls, I think that's what it was called, starter for
> the past 5 years or so. It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
> texture, crumb great crust and no sourness. I use a little rye in the
> starter and about 1.5 ounces in the bread itself. That's along with
> 14 oz of bread flour. Hydration is a little under 68%. When I first
> mix the flour starter and water, I autolyse for an hour then add
> salt. I fold 3-4 times over a couple of hours and then form the loaf,
> letting it sit a room temp. for an hour or so, before putting it in
> the refridgerator for the night. Next day I take it out and let it
> warm up for 2.5-3 hours, sometimes using the oven's bread proofing
> setting for the last half hour. I preheat the oven to 550 and then
> bake for 15 minutes at 465, pouring hot water in a preheated pan when
> I put the bread in and spritzing the oven with spray as well. After
> 15 min. I turn the temp down to 450, cover the bread with tin foil and
> bake for another 50 or so minutes. Wow that's a lot of explaining to
> say why am I not getting any sourness in my bread. Every once in a
> while there's a hint, but basically nothing. Do I need to get another
> starter. The loaves look great and actually taste great, but I want
> that tartness. I tried citric acid once, but really didn't like the
> flavor. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
To summarize the essential parts (baking won't do much to increase
sourness):

- some rye in starter and bread
- autolyze 1 hour
- folding 3 - 4 times in a couple of hours
- fridge over night
- warm up again 2.5 - 3 hours
- bake

Main issue: not enough sourness.

What plays a major role is

a - Starter condition (how do you grow your starter) and how do you
keep/maintain it over time.

When you, over time with your starter maintenance, cause a starter
which has more yeast than lactic acid activity, than you may lack sourness.

b - Temperature

Has also an effect on sourness. Apparently, LB's like it warmer than the
yeasts - 86 - 90 F, 30 - 32 C

c - Dough fermentation time at temperature

Same story as with the starter - warmer and longer creates more sourness.

The ratio of starter flour to dough flour is also a factor, but since
you seem to getting a decent rise, that may not be an issue.

Have you grown your starter, before you make dough, so much that it gets
sour and won't rise anymore?
Maybe if you give it a try - using full grain flour and keep it warmer
in a more controlled environment, to see if the starter itself gets sour.

Sam

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 21:25:37 -0700, Sam
> wrote:
>c - Dough fermentation time at temperature
>
>Same story as with the starter - warmer and longer creates more sourness.
Yep. Ever forgotten a loaf on a hot day ? It collapses, and
when baked is totally sour. Small holes and rubbery texture though,
but great with strong cheeses.
[]'s

Starter condition (how do you grow your starter) and how do you keep/
maintain it over time

The main starter batch is fed probably one or two times a week. The
day before I'm going to bake I take a couple of tablespoons of the
main batch and add 1 tbsp of rye and then bread flour to a total of 4
ounces. To that I add 6 ounces of water and let that get all bubbly,
lots of small bubbles before refridgerating overnight. The next am I
take it out, stir it a little and let it set 2-3 hours while it
rebubbles. Adding 6 ounces to the dough.

Temperature
I'm not sure what your saying here about 80-90, is that when putting
it in the dough? When I mix the dough, I try to have everything come
in at an average of 72 degrees, adjusting the water temp for
variations in other ingredients. Should that be higher?

I'll try to make some starter at warmer temps to see what that does,
although I'm not sure I can easily control the temp. Maybe no
refridgeration. When you say full grain are you referring to whole
wheat?

By the way, Thanks for responding.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 07:21:25 -0800 (PST), Monte >
wrote:

>Temperature
>I'm not sure what your saying here about 80-90, is that when putting
>it in the dough? When I mix the dough, I try to have everything come
>in at an average of 72 degrees, adjusting the water temp for
>variations in other ingredients. Should that be higher?
Yes, like the man said, try to keep fermenting temps around
30-32 Celsius.
The yeast grows best at a lower temperature, the sour-making
bacteria at a higher one. The hotter the sourer, to a limit.
[]'s

Hello,

I write comments in-between:

Monte wrote:
> Starter condition (how do you grow your starter) and how do you keep/
> maintain it over time
>
> The main starter batch is fed probably one or two times a week.
If you are keeping it anywhere near or at room temperature, the way you
describe, you are damaging your starter.
Or - said differently, keeping it nowhere near an optimum.

If you have it in the fridge - there is no need to feed it that frequently.

The generation time of sourdough organisms is somewhere in the 1 - 3-ish
hour range meaning they double in that time, once they got started.
If you would feed it adequately and keeping your critters happy, you
would need to double the flour content of your culture maybe every 6 hours.

Not doing so will reduce activity
> The
> day before I'm going to bake I take a couple of tablespoons of the
> main batch and add 1 tbsp of rye and then bread flour to a total of 4
> ounces.
I am trying to guesstimate your setup and am metric, that's much easier
for me so, 1 oz is 28.3 g

Guessing your couple of Tb starter are maybe 4 at 15 g each would give
60 g starter, assuming 100 % hydration - 50/50 water/flour would give 30
g flour starter.

You add 4 oz - 75 g flour and approx tripling your starter flour -
that's fair.
> To that I add 6 ounces of water and let that get all bubbly,
> lots of small bubbles before refridgerating overnight. The next am I
> take it out, stir it a little and let it set 2-3 hours while it
> rebubbles. Adding 6 ounces to the dough.
>
>
From your initial post, you mention 14 oz flour ~ 400 g, your 6 oz
starter is about 100 g, 50 % flour, so your starter flour/total flour
ratio is about 10 % - that's a bit low, you could double that and maybe
have more sourdough "bang" in our initial dough.
> Temperature
> I'm not sure what your saying here about 80-90, is that when putting
> it in the dough?
During dough fermentation. Initial dough temperature sure plays a role
but will it still very much affect it in two hours? Probably not so much.
What I mean is to maintain a higher temperature during dough
fermentation. I do 30 C, that's 86 F in watertanks with aquarium
heaters. That took care of the whole temperature control issue. Usually
2 + 2 hours dough fermentation.

Before I tried other things - top of Computer Monitor (before LCD),
lowest oven temp and light in oven did not work - too high. I think
people are using heating pads, lamps in plastic boxes.

One thing is for sure - that sourdough growing is a sensitive issue - a
couple of degrees change the result noticeably.

> When I mix the dough, I try to have everything come
> in at an average of 72 degrees, adjusting the water temp for
> variations in other ingredients. Should that be higher?
>
Since you are lacking sourness, a higher temperature sure could help.

Your 72 F are 22 C, have a look the

http://samartha.net/SD/docs/DW-post1-4n.html#058

in that area there are the generation times of SD yeasts and bacteria.

It makes a difference, if you need double time to get to a particular
fermentation degree (= sourness).
- compare 4 hours to 8 hours dough fermentation.
> I'll try to make some starter at warmer temps to see what that does,
> although I'm not sure I can easily control the temp. Maybe no
> refridgeration.
When you refrigerate your starter during the starter growth period (a -
starter growing/multiplying, b - dough routine) you are doing something
counterproductive - retarding at a time where you actually want to do
everything to multiply the critters.
> When you say full grain are you referring to whole
> wheat?
>
Full grain flour, maybe should have written whole grain - any flour from
bread grain - wheat, rye, kamut, spelt - where everything - content of
the whole kernel is in the flour.

To sum it up, I think your issue is with starter keeping/growing.
> By the way, Thanks for responding.
>
My pleasure -

Sam

"Monte" > wrote in message
...

> I fold 3-4 times over a couple of hours and then form the loaf,
> letting it sit a room temp. for an hour or so, before putting it in
> the refridgerator for the night.

Overnight retarding , which had been my usual habit for quite some time, has
always given very predictable results for me, and your process would
typically yield a very interesting crust and a yummy but rather mellow
tasting bread. I don't know much of the science, I just know my results, and
it seems that the cold stops something from developing that otherwise would
have flourished if allowed to remain in warmer temperatures throughout.
Whenever I forego the fridge, and allow a full length warm fermentation
straight to the bake, I end up with a more flavorful finished product, and
with better keeping qualities to boot. I do know that time your dough spends
in the fridge cannot be totally discounted in your fermentation time,
because there is still activity going on in there, but changing the ratio of
warm to cold periods will alter the result for you.

hutchndi

On Nov 27, 5:32*pm, Monte > wrote:
>I fold 3-4 times over a couple of hours and then form the loaf,
> letting it sit a room temp. for an hour or so, before putting it in
> the refrigerator for the night. *Next day I take it out and let it
> warm up for 2.5-3 hours, sometimes using the oven's bread proofing
> setting for the last half hour.

So...most of the development is cold: refrigerator overnight. Or
fairly cool: as it rewarms (from about 36 F.) before baking.

I think temperature is the issue and you are ripening your dough in a
fashion that favors yeast not lactobacilli.

Reverse the procedure... Mix and retard the dough overnight. This will
give you the gluten development. Then let the dough come to room temp.
Then do the S&F's, to organize the gluten. Shape, and PUSH the final
proof for 3 or 4 hours in a hot, 85 F., proof box, to fully ripen the
dough.

Also... replace the starter. It's not likely to have LB potential at
this point. Make a new one from from rye. See Sam's site for info.

"Will" > wrote in message
...

"Also... replace the starter. It's not likely to have LB potential at
this point. Make a new one from from rye. See Sam's site for info."

I didn't want to suggest this and get the Carls OT Evangalists all in an
uproar, even though I kind of thought it might be a factor. Not sure of
Will's reason for suggesting it, but I have used enough starters by now to
understand why there are so many posts made by people that have a hard time
getting a good sourdough flavor from Carls. I know I know, there are plenty
of bakers here who say it just needs to be coaxed in one way or another, and
I am sure they are correct, but I have found I get consistantly better
flavors from other cultures, without fussing oh so much. I know that at the
very least if I were planning on doing at fridge retarding, I would choose
to revive one of my other starters than to use the Carls.

Curious Will, what did you mean by "at this point"?

Russ

Will wrote:
> ...
> Also... replace the starter. It's not likely to have LB potential at
> this point. Make a new one from from rye. See Sam's site for info.
>
>
Uups, overkill suggestion here!

Original post was:

> starter for
> the past 5 years or so. It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
> texture, crumb great crust and no sourness.

Seems like a working starter to me. Why would anyone toss out a 5 year
old functional starter?

If the starter maintenance procedure causes undesirable results, a new
starter with the same procedure would do the same.
Overall result would be even worse since it needs time to get established.

Sam

On Nov 29, 9:54*pm, Sam > wrote:

> Uups, overkill suggestion here!
>
> Seems like a working starter to me. Why would anyone *toss out a 5 year
> old functional starter?

I dunno Samartha. I figured that after 5 years of refresh and chill
before use the LBs have given up. What's there is yeast.

I note that your starter treatment is very different. You are
modulating temperature and hydration to ensure population balance.

What do you suppose would happen to your starter if you went cold on
it consistently before it had completed it's cycle?

So, I respectfully disagree. I think the starter needs to be replaced.
I'd go with rye, myself, since the OP's goal is "sour".

I completely agree, however, that a different maintenance regime is
required.

>
> > starter for
> > the past 5 years or so. *It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
> > texture, crumb great crust and no sourness.
>
> Seems like a working starter to me. Why would anyone *toss out a 5 year
> old functional starter?
>
> If the starter maintenance procedure causes undesirable results, a new
> starter with the same procedure would do the same.
> Overall result would be even worse since it needs time to get established..
>
> Sam

Well, I'm back after a couple of days tries. I made the starter on
Saturday for a Sunday build and Monday bake. Made the starter about
2pm and let it sit at about 70 degrees until 6am before using. Lots
of little bubbles, but it had risen and collapsed, so I didn't have a
lot of hope. I built the dough and was going thru the folding phase,
but it was growing very fast. When I finished the final fold and put
it in a basket for the final proof it was significantly bigger than
normal. After an hour of sitting at room temp, it was overflowing the
basket and it was time to bake ready or not. It deflated a little
when I put it in the oven, but produced the lightest holiest loaf I've
ever produced. I hardly noticed any flavor or taste change although
my wife thought she noted a slight sourness.
Built the starter for the next day again at 2pm only this time used
one tablespoon of mother starter. Again left it out overnight at room
temp and again the same result. I'm about to try again, but this time
I'll leave the starter in my oven on bread proofing overnight. The
oven hovers around 80 degrees in that mode, so it seem like it might
be a good location for the starter growth.
I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?

"Monte" > wrote in message
...

"I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?"

Well if this isn't a can o' worms....

I didn't EXACTLY say that, I simply tried to share my own experiences with
it, and an inkling of my own preferences. If you spend much time here, you
will find that there are quite a few posters who are extremely precise in
every aspect of their sourdough baking. I more often than not don't exactly
fall into that category, I rather like the idea of my home made bread being
less of a science project and more of a simple enjoyment, even if my results
are not identical from one bake to the next. I imagine a search of RFS will
turn up plenty of procedures on getting sour from your Carls OT, just in
case someone isn't putting together a gloriously well written step by step
instruction for you at this very moment.

You say you have been baking with Carls for 5 years, and have never, ever,
gotten what you call sour? Not even by accident? That, to me at least, is an
indicator that Carls is not the easiest to coax sour from. OK, now I don't
know if you actually started baking sourdough 5 years ago or what, but not
all that long ago when I started out with some other culture, I made allot
of mistakes, baked allot of leathery footballs with gooey centers, allot of
hubcaps, etc. But somehow I definitely did end up with some sad looking but
seriously sour loaves (a little incompetence goes a long way) that made my
wife's face pucker up. I eventually got the opportunity to be splendidly
inept when using Carls also, but have yet to make my wife pucker with the
results.

Will wrote:
> On Nov 29, 9:54 pm, Sam > wrote:
>
>
>> Uups, overkill suggestion here!
>>
>> Seems like a working starter to me. Why would anyone toss out a 5 year
>> old functional starter?
>>
>
> I dunno Samartha. I figured that after 5 years of refresh and chill
> before use the LBs have given up. What's there is yeast.
>
>
You may want to consider that a SD culture is symbiotic in some way
between LB's and yeasts and a pure yeast culture would not be
sustainable over time.

Be assured that they are in there, just not strongly expressed at the
parameters he is running the starter.

If he has a 5 year stability in his starter - I sure would not throw
this out and start over with something else - until this gets stable
again, just a wastage of time with more frustrations coming along.

I read an article a while ago, where they analyzed the organisms in an
established (couple of decades) commercial rye sourdough starter and I
was very disappointed that besides the desired LB SF's were a great
number of other LB's in there - over 10 or so, just not expressed -
can't find the article right now.

> I note that your starter treatment is very different. You are
> modulating temperature and hydration to ensure population balance.
>
>
The essence of this is that I keep a constant routine as much as
possible which produces a constant result.
Anyone else can do it too, no secret. Maybe a difference is that I am
selling some of my breads and if I fail, I have to eat too many duds
myself ;-)
No I actually got tired of tinkering trying to find the holey grail of
rye breads and what I am doing just works very well for me.

Some basic principle with sourdough seems to be a 3-stage refreshment to
get a good result.
What's your guess on % of home-sourdough folks with white bread are
doing that?
> What do you suppose would happen to your starter if you went cold on
> it consistently before it had completed it's cycle?
>
If I would to it consistently, it would produce a constant result after
a while, if it's sustainable. What you mention - as I understand it - is
overfeeding a starter. Hard to say without any specifics on ratios.
> So, I respectfully disagree. I think the starter needs to be replaced.
> I'd go with rye, myself, since the OP's goal is "sour".
>
>
As I said before, I would not throw out a 5 year stability which just
needs a little adjusting to be ok.
You seem to think that, if the LB's are not dominant to a taste-bud
recognizable level, they are gone for good which may not reflect
sourdough reality.

Sam

Monte wrote:
> [..]
> I'm about to try again, but this time
> I'll leave the starter in my oven on bread proofing overnight. The
> oven hovers around 80 degrees in that mode, so it seem like it might
> be a good location for the starter growth.
>
That sounds like a plan - having found a warmer place to grow your starter.

Seems you are doing a one-stage process. Have you ever thought about
doing a 3-stage process - tripling the flour content 3 times every 6 hours?


> I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
> sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?
>
Probably folks neglecting their starters and blaming it on the starter.
This "rumor" has been around for a while and I tested it, somewhere on
my web site are the picture. The Carls is doing it's souring thing just
fine.

> I built the dough and was going thru the folding phase,
> but it was growing very fast. When I finished the final fold and put
> it in a basket for the final proof it was significantly bigger than
> normal. After an hour of sitting at room temp, it was overflowing the
> basket and it was time to bake ready or not. It deflated a little
> when I put it in the oven, but produced the lightest holiest loaf I've
> ever produced. I hardly noticed any flavor or taste change although
> my wife thought she noted a slight sourness.
Maybe if you would have punched it down - deflated and fermented longer,
it may have gotten more sour.

Or did it get too wet?

"Sam" > wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1259643279.19236.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> Monte wrote:
>> [..]
>> I'm about to try again, but this time
>> I'll leave the starter in my oven on bread proofing overnight. The
>> oven hovers around 80 degrees in that mode, so it seem like it might
>> be a good location for the starter growth.
>>
> That sounds like a plan - having found a warmer place to grow your
> starter.
>
> Seems you are doing a one-stage process. Have you ever thought about doing
> a 3-stage process - tripling the flour content 3 times every 6 hours?
>
>
>> I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
>> sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?
>>
> Probably folks neglecting their starters and blaming it on the starter.
> This "rumor" has been around for a while and I tested it, somewhere on my
> web site are the picture. The Carls is doing it's souring thing just fine.
>
>> I built the dough and was going thru the folding phase,
>> but it was growing very fast. When I finished the final fold and put
>> it in a basket for the final proof it was significantly bigger than
>> normal. After an hour of sitting at room temp, it was overflowing the
>> basket and it was time to bake ready or not. It deflated a little
>> when I put it in the oven, but produced the lightest holiest loaf I've
>> ever produced. I hardly noticed any flavor or taste change although
>> my wife thought she noted a slight sourness.
> Maybe if you would have punched it down - deflated and fermented longer,
> it may have gotten more sour.
>
> Or did it get too wet?
>
>
>

"Sam" > wrote in message
news:mailman.9.1259643279.19236.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior.com...
> >> I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
>> sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?
>>
> Probably folks neglecting their starters and blaming it on the starter.

Yep, that's me. But I then I am not seeking "sour" anyways, just a nice
tasty loaf, and I do just fine.

On Nov 30, 10:54*pm, Sam <sdnews-inbox

3 step process, I haven't tried yet. I did two steps yesterday.
Results still in the oven. Amazed at the starter this morning, really
bubbly, never been like that this morning. Tasted more sour, and
really made the bread rise and fast. trying three tomorrow.


Or did it get too wet?

It's on the verge of getting too wet, but I'll try punching down
again. This morning I folder three times, every 50 min. and then put
in a basket for the final rise. When I put it on the peel it kept
it's shape. Used more starter, 10oz versus the regular 6 and 8 oz of
water versus 10.5.

Monte wrote:
>>> starter for
>>> the past 5 years or so. It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
>>> texture, crumb great crust and no sourness.<snip>

I'm about to try again, but this time
> I'll leave the starter in my oven on bread proofing overnight. The
> oven hovers around 80 degrees in that mode, so it seem like it might
> be a good location for the starter growth.
> I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
> sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?

I use a homemade starter I made a few years back that acts very well. I
was having issues with either too heavy and sour or too fluffy and no
sour then read the way Dick Adams does his with Carl's starter and
started to use his method of a small amount of very active starter and a
long rise time. I hand mix mine vs Dicks machine mixed.

It makes a great fluffy loaf with a nice sour bite and rises a good 5X
in the final proof.

The instructions are in a link on this page:
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
.com...
> Monte wrote:
>>>> starter for
>>>> the past 5 years or so. It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
>>>> texture, crumb great crust and no sourness.<snip>
>
> I'm about to try again, but this time
>> I'll leave the starter in my oven on bread proofing overnight. The
>> oven hovers around 80 degrees in that mode, so it seem like it might
>> be a good location for the starter growth.
>> I noticed one of the other posts suggested that Carl's isn't a great
>> sour taste producer. What starters are? And what's the difference?
>
> I use a homemade starter I made a few years back that acts very well. I
> was having issues with either too heavy and sour or too fluffy and no sour
> then read the way Dick Adams does his with Carl's starter and started to
> use his method of a small amount of very active starter and a long rise
> time. I hand mix mine vs Dicks machine mixed.
>
> It makes a great fluffy loaf with a nice sour bite and rises a good 5X in
> the final proof.
>
> The instructions are in a link on this page:
> http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html
>
> Mike
> Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

I too use Dick's method and it *never* fails! I have also converted both
his three- and two-stage recipes to metric weights (for flour) and volumes
(for water).
Graham

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:59:39 -0700, "graham" > wrote:

>I too use Dick's method and it *never* fails! I have also converted both
>his three- and two-stage recipes to metric weights (for flour) and volumes
>(for water).
>Graham

Any chance of posting the converted version?? Huh?? Pretty please??

"Mike Brown" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 09:59:39 -0700, "graham" > wrote:
>
>>I too use Dick's method and it *never* fails! I have also converted both
>>his three- and two-stage recipes to metric weights (for flour) and volumes
>>(for water).
>>Graham
>
> Any chance of posting the converted version?? Huh?? Pretty please??
>
>
Not without Dick's permission! However, it's in tabulated format.
Graham

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:32:13 -0800 (PST), Monte
> wrote:

>I've been using Carls, I think that's what it was called, starter for
>the past 5 years or so. It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
>texture, crumb great crust and no sourness. I use a little rye in the
>starter and about 1.5 ounces in the bread itself. That's along with
>14 oz of bread flour. Hydration is a little under 68%. When I first
>mix the flour starter and water, I autolyse for an hour then add
>salt. I fold 3-4 times over a couple of hours and then form the loaf,
>letting it sit a room temp. for an hour or so, before putting it in
>the refridgerator for the night. Next day I take it out and let it
>warm up for 2.5-3 hours, sometimes using the oven's bread proofing
>setting for the last half hour. I preheat the oven to 550 and then
>bake for 15 minutes at 465, pouring hot water in a preheated pan when
>I put the bread in and spritzing the oven with spray as well. After
>15 min. I turn the temp down to 450, cover the bread with tin foil and
>bake for another 50 or so minutes. Wow that's a lot of explaining to
>say why am I not getting any sourness in my bread. Every once in a
>while there's a hint, but basically nothing. Do I need to get another
>starter. The loaves look great and actually taste great, but I want
>that tartness. I tried citric acid once, but really didn't like the
>flavor. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Hi Monte,

I will add something to the good information you have
already received:

About a year ago, I read something written by Raymond
Calvel.

He said (essentially) that those who keep their starters
refrigerated are unlikely to ever know the taste potential
of naturally leavened bread.

I was intrigued by that, and decided to experiment with
keeping my starter out at room temperature, feeding it as
needed.

The difference is dramatic. The tastes are far better, and
far more complex than I had ever achieved before.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:32:13 -0800 (PST), Monte
> > wrote:
>
> Hi Monte,
>
> I will add something to the good information you have
> already received:
>
> About a year ago, I read something written by Raymond
> Calvel.
>
> He said (essentially) that those who keep their starters
> refrigerated are unlikely to ever know the taste potential
> of naturally leavened bread.
>
> I was intrigued by that, and decided to experiment with
> keeping my starter out at room temperature, feeding it as
> needed.
>
> The difference is dramatic. The tastes are far better, and
> far more complex than I had ever achieved before.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

My most recent experience confirms this and I agree with Kenneth's post of
Mr. Calvel's findings. I recently posted about my "fridge flakes" --
reconstituted frozen starter flakes. From the time I took them from the
freezer and started keeping the culture at room temp, the few bakes that I
have done since have improved each week. At first, not long after getting
the starter to the point of refreshment where it can raise dough, the result
is almost indistinguishable from a bread made with commercial yeast,
including staling rather quickly. While I don't really try to get "sour"
flavor, the flavors do greatly improve the longer I keep the culture going
and I definitely notice an improvement in keeping quality, while my
fermentation times do not really vary from one batch to the next.

hutchndi

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:32:13 -0800 (PST), Monte
> > wrote:
>
> Hi Monte,
>
> I will add something to the good information you have
> already received:
>
> About a year ago, I read something written by Raymond
> Calvel.
>
> He said (essentially) that those who keep their starters
> refrigerated are unlikely to ever know the taste potential
> of naturally leavened bread.
>
> I was intrigued by that, and decided to experiment with
> keeping my starter out at room temperature, feeding it as
> needed.
>
> The difference is dramatic. The tastes are far better, and
> far more complex than I had ever achieved before.
>
> All the best,
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

My most recent experience confirms this and I agree with Kenneth's post of
Mr. Calvel's findings. I recently posted about my "fridge flakes" --
reconstituted frozen starter flakes. From the time I took them from the
freezer and started keeping the culture at room temp, the few bakes that I
have done since have improved each week. At first, not long after getting
the starter to the point of refreshment where it can raise dough, the result
is almost indistinguishable from a bread made with commercial yeast,
including staling rather quickly. While I don't really try to get "sour"
flavor, the flavors do greatly improve the longer I keep the culture going
and I definitely notice an improvement in keeping quality, while my
fermentation times do not really vary from one batch to the next.

hutchndi

On Nov 30, 2:54*pm, Sam > wrote:
> Will wrote:
> > ...
> > Also... replace the starter. It's not likely to have LB potential at
> > this point. Make a new one from from rye. See Sam's site for info.
>
> Uups, overkill suggestion here!
>
> Original post was:
>
> > starter for
> > the past 5 years or so. *It produces some lovely loaves, great holes,
> > texture, crumb great crust and no sourness.
>
> Seems like a working starter to me. Why would anyone *toss out a 5 year
> old functional starter?
>
> If the starter maintenance procedure causes undesirable results, a new
> starter with the same procedure would do the same.
> Overall result would be even worse since it needs time to get established..
>
> Sam

Makes a lot of sense not refrigerating. It seems to shift the balance
towards yeast and away from bacteria. My only issue is I keep a couple
of cultures and use a cup of flour (metric 250 ml) everytime I feed at
least once a day sometimes twice, so consumes a lot of flour. I
suppose the lesson for me is to keep a smaller culture in a smaller
container so using less than a cup of flour when I fee. I would be
interested in getting a copy of Calvels article. I have his english
translation book I cant remember him saying no refrig. there. Paddy

"flin" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:07:19 -0500, Kenneth
> > wrote:
>
>
> Interesting, but doesn't that require a lot of babysitting of the
> dough? Or do you bake that often?
>
> fl

This is why I freeze my starter in the summer, I don't start sourdough
baking until the fall when my house is not so warm as to make my starter
bloom like crazy. Feeding twice a day is just too wasteful to me. Keeping
small amounts of really thick starter makes the warmer months more
manageable though.

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:47 -0800 (PST), padriac
> wrote:

>My only issue is I keep a couple
>of cultures and use a cup of flour (metric 250 ml) everytime I feed at
>least once a day sometimes twice, so consumes a lot of flour.

Hi again,

Instead of using a cup of flour, use a teaspoon of flour (or
less). There are billions of critters in every gram of
starter, so it is only necessary to keep tiny amounts
active.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On 12/23/2009 7:56 AM, Kenneth wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:47 -0800 (PST), padriac
> > wrote:
>
>> My only issue is I keep a couple
>> of cultures and use a cup of flour (metric 250 ml) everytime I feed at
>> least once a day sometimes twice, so consumes a lot of flour.
>
> Hi again,
>
> Instead of using a cup of flour, use a teaspoon of flour (or
> less). There are billions of critters in every gram of
> starter, so it is only necessary to keep tiny amounts
> active.
>
> All the best,

So are you saying only keep a teaspoon of starter and feed it a teaspoon
flour and a teaspoon water per day?

Harvey

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:22:27 -0500, eclipsme >
wrote:

>On 12/23/2009 7:56 AM, Kenneth wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:47 -0800 (PST), padriac
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> My only issue is I keep a couple
>>> of cultures and use a cup of flour (metric 250 ml) everytime I feed at
>>> least once a day sometimes twice, so consumes a lot of flour.
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> Instead of using a cup of flour, use a teaspoon of flour (or
>> less). There are billions of critters in every gram of
>> starter, so it is only necessary to keep tiny amounts
>> active.
>>
>> All the best,
>
>So are you saying only keep a teaspoon of starter and feed it a teaspoon
>flour and a teaspoon water per day?
>
>Harvey

I do that with several of my starters, tossing most of the goop when
refreshing and keeping the total volumn small until I am doing a build
for baking.

Boron

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 08:22:27 -0500, eclipsme
> wrote:

>On 12/23/2009 7:56 AM, Kenneth wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 00:21:47 -0800 (PST), padriac
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> My only issue is I keep a couple
>>> of cultures and use a cup of flour (metric 250 ml) everytime I feed at
>>> least once a day sometimes twice, so consumes a lot of flour.
>>
>> Hi again,
>>
>> Instead of using a cup of flour, use a teaspoon of flour (or
>> less). There are billions of critters in every gram of
>> starter, so it is only necessary to keep tiny amounts
>> active.
>>
>> All the best,
>
>So are you saying only keep a teaspoon of starter and feed it a teaspoon
>flour and a teaspoon water per day?
>
>Harvey

Hi Harvey,

Even doing it by teaspoons is much more than needed...

So, I would suggest any amount that is convenient, but
keeping cups of starter on hand is overkill.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Dec 23, 9:29*am, "hutchndi" > wrote:
> "Kenneth" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 15:32:13 -0800 (PST), Monte
> > > wrote:
>
> > Hi Monte,
>
> > I will add something to the good information you have
> > already received:
>
> > About a year ago, I read something written by Raymond
> > Calvel.
>
> > He said (essentially) that those who keep their starters
> > refrigerated are unlikely to ever know the taste potential
> > of naturally leavened bread.
>
> > I was intrigued by that, and decided to experiment with
> > keeping my starter out at room temperature, feeding it as
> > needed.
>
> > The difference is dramatic. The tastes are far better, and
> > far more complex than I had ever achieved before.
>
> > All the best,
> > --
> > Kenneth
>
> > If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."
>
> My most recent experience confirms this and I agree with Kenneth's post of
> Mr. Calvel's findings. I recently posted about my "fridge flakes" -- *
> reconstituted frozen starter flakes. From the time I took them from the
> freezer and started keeping the culture at room temp, the few bakes that I
> have done since have improved each week. At first, not long after getting
> the starter to the point of refreshment where it can raise dough, the result
> is almost indistinguishable from a bread made with commercial yeast,
> including staling rather quickly. While I don't really try to get "sour"
> flavor, the flavors do greatly improve the longer I keep the culture going
> and *I definitely notice an improvement in keeping quality, while my
> fermentation times do not really vary from one batch to the next.
>
> hutchndi
Maybe using a'chef' the old French based way of storing a starter:
Mixing culture with flour and minimal water to make a very stiff mix
shaped into the size of a golf ball' is a way of avoiding the fridge
for short time culture keeping without changing the bacteria fungi
balance. I have experimented with a chef in the past and it seems to
keep for a couple of weeks in medium temperatures (20c to 27c)
without feeding. Anyone got some more definite experience of this.
Paddy

I've used both my homemade rye starter and Carl's on the same day
using the same method. My rye starter consistently produces a much
deeper, more developed flavor than the Carl's. I tend to use my
Carl's more for pizza dough or cinnamon rolls and the like. I
refreshed them both about nine at night...built over the course of the
day...shaped and left overnight...baked them in the morning. The
Carl's was puffier. It was about 65° to 68° in the house. When it is
warmer (in FIorida) usually bake the same day (at night) after it is
refreshed.

I've been maintaining my fridge starters in thick tablespoon
amounts...I may try going down to teaspoon size or maybe small dryer
ball like starters. I usually bake every 2 to 3 weeks and my starters
are fine. I have dried flake back ups but haven't needed them in a
long time.



Lucy