 |
|
| Sourdough (rec.food.sourdough) Discussing the hobby or craft of baking with sourdough. We are not just a recipe group, Our charter is to discuss the care, feeding, and breeding of yeasts and lactobacilli that make up sourdough cultures. |
| Reply |
|
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
|
|||
|
|||
Why are these Bakers Catalog starters not self perpetuating?
I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French
Sourdough Starters. A later search of this newsgroup revealed that once these starters are activated, they are self limiting and cannot be -- or are not supposed to be for some reason -- kept alive. If the starter is properly fed and cared for, why can't it be kept alive? Has anyone successfully done this? I'd be grateful if someone could enlighten me about this. Many thanks! --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.791 / Virus Database: 535 - Release Date: 11/8/2004 |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:12:18 -0500, "findel"
> wrote: >I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French >Sourdough Starters. A later search of this newsgroup revealed that once >these starters are activated, they are self limiting and cannot be -- or are >not supposed to be for some reason -- kept alive. If the starter is >properly fed and cared for, why can't it be kept alive? Has anyone >successfully done this? I'd be grateful if someone could enlighten me about >this. > >Many thanks! > > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.791 / Virus Database: 535 - Release Date: 11/8/2004 > Howdy, With respect, I would suggest that you contact KA... That said, is it possible that they are not "starters" in the sense that we ordinarily use. Perhaps they are some sort of flavorings, and commercial yeasts. In any case, KA will have some answer, and then you can tell us... All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:48:38 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote: >On Tue, 9 Nov 2004 18:12:18 -0500, "findel" > wrote: > >>I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French >>Sourdough Starters. A later search of this newsgroup revealed that once >>these starters are activated, they are self limiting and cannot be -- or are >>not supposed to be for some reason -- kept alive. If the starter is >>properly fed and cared for, why can't it be kept alive? Has anyone >>successfully done this? I'd be grateful if someone could enlighten me about >>this. >> >>Many thanks! >> >> >> >> >>--- >>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>Version: 6.0.791 / Virus Database: 535 - Release Date: 11/8/2004 >> > >Howdy, > >With respect, I would suggest that you contact KA... > >That said, is it possible that they are not "starters" in >the sense that we ordinarily use. Perhaps they are some sort >of flavorings, and commercial yeasts. > >In any case, KA will have some answer, and then you can tell >us... > >All the best, Hello again, I just read the description at the KA site... " LA-4 French Sourdough Starter -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Create artisan breads -- crusty, chewy, and full of incredible flavor -- at home with our imported French Lalvain du Jour® Starters, a dry mixture of specialized yeast, bacteria and lactose. The pain de campagne LA-2 starter produces bread with an elusive tang, bread where the rich, nutty taste of the wheat shines through. The French sourdough LA-4 starter (contains beef traces) creates an assertive sourdough loaf; it includes lactobacillus type San Francisco, the bacteria that gives San Francisco sourdough its characteristic bite. Use just 1/4 teaspoon starter to make two loaves; each 5g packet contains enough starter for 12 loaves of bread." and I suspect that my earlier guess was correct. My guess is that this stuff is LBSF and commercial yeast (which cannot live for long in the acidic environment created by the LB. Now, let's consider the "traces" of beef... I guess that this allows the home baker to make a complete sandwich with the stuff. All the best, -- Kenneth If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
findel wrote:
> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French > Sourdough Starters. The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog -- http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very good real starter -- http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522 -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>). Karen R. Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
findel wrote:
> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 French > Sourdough Starters. The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog -- http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very good real starter -- http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522 -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>). Karen R. Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Kenneth wrote:
> > Now, let's consider the "traces" of beef... Plasma, is my understanding. B/ |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Karen" > wrote in message nk.net... > findel wrote: > >> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 >> French >> Sourdough Starters. > > The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog -- > http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs > made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a > sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very > good real starter -- > http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522 > -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note > to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>). > > Karen R. > Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.792 / Virus Database: 536 - Release Date: 11/9/2004 |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
It certainly is not very clear. I would say it was downright deceptive if I
didn't think it was probably written by some copywriter with no knowledge of what he was writing about. Your note about earlier catalog descriptions convinces me still further. I'll probably have to chalk this one up as one of life's little lessons. But I think I'll try to mix it with some homemade starter to see if I can get the taste I'm looking for and have it survive long term. Thanks ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen" > Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 7:18 PM Subject: Why are these Bakers Catalog starters not self perpetuating? > findel wrote: > >> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 >> French >> Sourdough Starters. > > The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog -- > http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs > made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a > sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very > good real starter -- > http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522 > -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note > to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>). > > Karen R. > Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.792 / Virus Database: 536 - Release Date: 11/9/2004 "Karen" > wrote in message nk.net... > findel wrote: > >> I ordered from the Bakers Catalog the LA-2 Pain de Campagne and LA-4 >> French >> Sourdough Starters. > > The description of them is not very clear in the current catalog -- > http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/items/item1040.html. Earlier catalogs > made it clear that this was a flavoring to give your loaves a > sourdough taste without actually using a starter. They do have a very > good real starter -- > http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/land...f=pub1&id=1522 > -- that I have been using for a year now with excellent results (note > to Dick A. -- my family and friends love it <g>). > > Karen R. > Instructions for de-spam-trapping my address are contained in the address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Findel,
It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now, the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to starters in my hands. You know how the directions call for making the sponge ahead of time? I just took that sponge, and maintained it as my culture. It worked nicely. I made bread off of the free starter sample I got for several years. I think that KA's main selling point for the packets is that give you a very consistent nicely sour loaf if you use them as directed - for people who only bake very casually, that is a big deal. Anna "findel" > wrote in message >... > It certainly is not very clear. I would say it was downright deceptive if I > didn't think it was probably written by some copywriter with no knowledge of > what he was writing about. Your note about earlier catalog descriptions > convinces me still further. I'll probably have to chalk this one up as one > of life's little lessons. But I think I'll try to mix it with some homemade > starter to see if I can get the taste I'm looking for and have it survive > long term. > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Findel,
It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now, the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to starters in my hands. You know how the directions call for making the sponge ahead of time? I just took that sponge, and maintained it as my culture. It worked nicely. I made bread off of the free starter sample I got for several years. I think that KA's main selling point for the packets is that give you a very consistent nicely sour loaf if you use them as directed - for people who only bake very casually, that is a big deal. Anna "findel" > wrote in message >... > It certainly is not very clear. I would say it was downright deceptive if I > didn't think it was probably written by some copywriter with no knowledge of > what he was writing about. Your note about earlier catalog descriptions > convinces me still further. I'll probably have to chalk this one up as one > of life's little lessons. But I think I'll try to mix it with some homemade > starter to see if I can get the taste I'm looking for and have it survive > long term. > |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Well, lets look:
case a, dead material: Assuming there are souring agents in this powder, it would give sour environment adjusted ( = sourdough ) organisms a head start. case b, alive material: With or without souring agents, sourdough typical organisms would already be there. In both cases this should give a better result with the powder than with plain flour and water at some level. If it's detectable is another question. No argument can convince a true believer. That's what believes are for. And it keeps things stable over generations: http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg Samartha At 06:17 PM 11/13/2004, Kenneth wrote: >Howdy, > >I believe that you would have had the same result if you >used flour and water and none of the KA "starter." > >All the best, > >-- >Kenneth > >If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Well, lets look:
case a, dead material: Assuming there are souring agents in this powder, it would give sour environment adjusted ( = sourdough ) organisms a head start. case b, alive material: With or without souring agents, sourdough typical organisms would already be there. In both cases this should give a better result with the powder than with plain flour and water at some level. If it's detectable is another question. No argument can convince a true believer. That's what believes are for. And it keeps things stable over generations: http://thechrisproject.com/images/map_nowvsthen.jpg Samartha At 06:17 PM 11/13/2004, Kenneth wrote: >Howdy, > >I believe that you would have had the same result if you >used flour and water and none of the KA "starter." > >All the best, > >-- >Kenneth > >If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS." remove "-nospam" when replying, and it's in my email address |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna > Ault) wrote: > > > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little > >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now, > >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to > >starters in my hands. > > Howdy, > > I believe that you would have had the same result if you > used flour and water and none of the KA "starter." > > All the best, I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a tolerable good bread, at that.) Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients listed. Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with sourdough. AnnaEA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Kenneth > wrote in message >. ..
> On 13 Nov 2004 16:41:01 -0800, (Anna > Ault) wrote: > > > It is possible to maintain the starter you make from the little > >envelopes they send you - that was how I made my first starter. Now, > >the flavour did change a bit after a month or so, but that happens to > >starters in my hands. > > Howdy, > > I believe that you would have had the same result if you > used flour and water and none of the KA "starter." > > All the best, I doubt that, if what you mean is that I would have had the same results with making a straight flour and water starter and baking with it. If I mix up a paste of flour and water on Sunday night at 7 pm, I cannot expect it to leaven bread at 10 am on Monday. With the addition of 1/4 tsp of the KA LA-4 powder, it does (and makes a tolerable good bread, at that.) Per the packet of this stuff I have in my fridge, it contains Lactobacillus brevis, Lactobacillus plantarum, and Saccharomyces cerevisiae (type San Francisco). Those are all the ingredients listed. Now, if what you meant is that after a month or so I would have had the same result of the flavour changing -- absolutely. That happens to me all the time. It's part of what I like about baking with sourdough. AnnaEA |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
> Hi Anna,
> Does enough of the original taste persist to make you think that your > starter is maintaining the original cultures from the Lalvain product? > > S. cerevisiae is of course baker's yeast, and the less surviving of > this the better, but the L. brevis and L. plantarum colonies, which > should provide the flavor in the culture, could be enjoying a new home > with compatible wild yeast species!  > > --Lisse Lisse, What I noticed was that as long as I was maintaining the starter on the counter, and feeding it daily, it seemed to stay consistent with the original. I noticed a taste change after I switched to keeping it in the fridge - it still leavened nicely, but became fairly mild. I adjusted the hydration, and it soured up again nicely, though the taste was not quite the same. I baked off that particular starter, and descendants, for about three years as I recall. Anna |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
Can't guess!
: | |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message >...
> Why are these Bakers still perpetuating non-self-perpetuating starters? > Can't guess! > > : | Hi Dick, Because we can, that's why!!! Actually I had heard from more thanone source that these packets gave a good flavor. And since the flavor is apparently based on organisms, not chemical additives, it would seem a valid one for sourdough bakers to examine. Another reason, since I rarely have the opportunity to sample any bread that I don't bake myself, a standard for sour taste could be helpful. And from this it follows that if I went to the trouble to get the starter, I would like to keep it going for as long as I wanted to use it. Beyond this it's just a novelty, like big-holed rustic bread, or trying to run red lights before the Polizei Pumpernickel. (Actually I just got paroled from a long stretch in the Hessen jail for making Weizenmischbrot without baker's yeast and with caraway seeds.) --Lisse <~~~~~~ IS she a stoolie for the PUPO?? Tune in next week! |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Lisse Tuerie" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag om... > "Dick Adams" > wrote in message >... > > > Why are these Bakers still perpetuating non-self-perpetuating starters? > > Can't guess! > > > > : | > > Hi Dick, > Because we can, that's why!!! Actually I had heard from more than> one source that these packets gave a good flavor. And since the flavor > is apparently based on organisms, not chemical additives, it would > seem a valid one for sourdough bakers to examine. Another reason, > since I rarely have the opportunity to sample any bread that I don't > bake myself, a standard for sour taste could be helpful. And from this > it follows that if I went to the trouble to get the starter, I would > like to keep it going for as long as I wanted to use it. > > Beyond this it's just a novelty, like big-holed rustic bread, or > trying to run red lights before the Polizei Pumpernickel. (Actually I > just got paroled from a long stretch in the Hessen jail for making > Weizenmischbrot without baker's yeast and with caraway seeds.) > > --Lisse <~~~~~~ IS she a stoolie for the PUPO?? Tune in next week! Hi Lisse, did you already hear from "DAS ECHTE"??? Ulrike |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>
> That makes sense Anna, > If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have > chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well, > so that you had to keep buying their product! > > I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is > something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe > it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample, > braving the "beef traces." > > --Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very convenient. I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking class I went too that they offered.) If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice. Anna |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
>
> That makes sense Anna, > If the Lalvain microbiologists were very clever, they would have > chosen or selectively bred lactobacilli that didn't survive cold well, > so that you had to keep buying their product! > > I suppose the most important question is whether the taste is > something special enough to be worth trying to keep. Can you describe > it? Did you get the no.2 or the no.4? Maybe I should order a sample, > braving the "beef traces." > > --Lisse <~~~~~~~~~~~~ long-term veggie-girl As I recall, the taste was good. Definitely better then storebought. No match for what I can get doing a three day build on my starter these days, but a very nice introduction. And very convenient. I believe that the beef trace refers to the medium they grow their stuff on (I seem to recall someone asking about that at the baking class I went too that they offered.) If your interested in trying it you might want to see if KA is offering a baking class near you -- they give you a free sample packet and a little cookbook. And the classes are nice. Anna |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
|
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message >...
> > Hi Lisse, > did you already hear from "DAS ECHTE"??? > Ulrike Hi Ulrike, DAS ECHTE. :-o Das echte … was? Nein, Ulrike, Ich wurde befreit. Aller Beweis meines Verbrechens wurde gegessen! (Actually I thought the PUPO were much better mannered than the FPF (Flics du Pain Français).  --Lisse |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message >...
> > Hi Lisse, > did you already hear from "DAS ECHTE"??? > Ulrike Hi Ulrike, DAS ECHTE. :-o Das echte … was? Nein, Ulrike, Ich wurde befreit. Aller Beweis meines Verbrechens wurde gegessen! (Actually I thought the PUPO were much better mannered than the FPF (Flics du Pain Français). --Lisse |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Lisse Tuerie" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag om... > "Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message >... > > > > > Hi Lisse, > > did you already hear from "DAS ECHTE"??? > > Ulrike > > Hi Ulrike, > > DAS ECHTE. :-o > > Das echte . was? > > Nein, Ulrike, Ich wurde befreit. Aller Beweis meines Verbrechens wurde > gegessen! (Actually I thought the PUPO were much better mannered than > the FPF (Flics du Pain Français). > > --Lisse Lisse, PUPOS are well mannered, so you may bake "Weizenmischbrot" without baker's yeast and with caraway seeds... Chacun a son gout Ulrike |
|
|
|||
|
|||
|
"Lisse Tuerie" > schrieb im Newsbeitrag om... > "Ulrike Westphal" > wrote in message >... > > > > > Hi Lisse, > > did you already hear from "DAS ECHTE"??? > > Ulrike > > Hi Ulrike, > > DAS ECHTE. :-o > > Das echte . was? > > Nein, Ulrike, Ich wurde befreit. Aller Beweis meines Verbrechens wurde > gegessen! (Actually I thought the PUPO were much better mannered than > the FPF (Flics du Pain Français). > > --Lisse Lisse, PUPOS are well mannered, so you may bake "Weizenmischbrot" without baker's yeast and with caraway seeds... Chacun a son gout Ulrike |
| Reply |
| Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
| Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Forum | |||
| Self-perpetuating Charities | General Cooking | |||
| Penzey's Summer Catalog | General Cooking | |||
| How to catalog or classify tea? | Tea | |||
| 2005 Klose Catalog | Barbecue | |||
| Chef's Catalog | Chocolate | |||
Linear Mode
