Trader Joe's recently started carrying Valrhona's
85% bar. I don't know if this is a new product,
but it's the first I've seen of it.

In the past couple years, I've bought three of
the Lindt Excellence 85% bars even though I
already knew I didn't like them, just because
Alex's descriptions made them sound so good
that I doubted my own memory.

Alex sometimes mentions that his preference is
for a deeply roasted chocolate, not the lighter
roasts characteristic of Valrhona and S-B.
So I thought an 85% Valrhona might be closer
to what I would like.

It was okay, but I don't prefer it over the
71%. Alex would call that "addicted to sugar",
but I think only a few people like Alex would
really think 71% is too sweet. I wouldn't
mind trying something halfway between the two.

But I have found a use for the 85% bar.
Recently, I've been eating lots of dried wild
blueberries from Trader Joe's (watch out --
they sell both wild and farmed dried blueberries,
the wild ones have all the flavor). I've found
that eating 85% chocolate with the dried berries
allows the berries to provide enough sweetness
for both. It's a nice combination, but I'll
have to explore a few other combinations such
as dried apricots, dates, and other berries.

Interesting about the dried berries - haven't noticed them at my Trader
Joe's, but I'm sure they are there and worth picking up.

I suspect you're referring to the Valrhona "Le Noir Extra Amer 85%" bar
which has been available for awhile - at least a couple years. Even though
prominent bitterness is normal for any 85%, this Valrhona bar has prominent
fruity flavor with little sweetness and a fair amount of bitterness. I
don't find it as pleasant as other 85% bars, specifically:

- Cuba Venchi's "Cuor di Cacao 85%" which has a fairly intense but pleasing
non-bitter chocolate taste with no prominent flavor notes.
- Galler's "Noir 85%" which has an excellent floral taste and is quite
exquisite.

Geoff

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> Trader Joe's recently started carrying Valrhona's
> 85% bar. I don't know if this is a new product,
> but it's the first I've seen of it.
>
> In the past couple years, I've bought three of
> the Lindt Excellence 85% bars even though I
> already knew I didn't like them, just because
> Alex's descriptions made them sound so good
> that I doubted my own memory.
>
> Alex sometimes mentions that his preference is
> for a deeply roasted chocolate, not the lighter
> roasts characteristic of Valrhona and S-B.
> So I thought an 85% Valrhona might be closer
> to what I would like.
>
> It was okay, but I don't prefer it over the
> 71%. Alex would call that "addicted to sugar",
> but I think only a few people like Alex would
> really think 71% is too sweet. I wouldn't
> mind trying something halfway between the two.
>
> But I have found a use for the 85% bar.
> Recently, I've been eating lots of dried wild
> blueberries from Trader Joe's (watch out --
> they sell both wild and farmed dried blueberries,
> the wild ones have all the flavor). I've found
> that eating 85% chocolate with the dried berries
> allows the berries to provide enough sweetness
> for both. It's a nice combination, but I'll
> have to explore a few other combinations such
> as dried apricots, dates, and other berries.

at Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:43:25 GMT in >,
(Geoffrey Bard) wrote :

>Interesting about the dried berries - haven't noticed them at my Trader
>Joe's, but I'm sure they are there and worth picking up.
>
>I suspect you're referring to the Valrhona "Le Noir Extra Amer 85%" bar
>which has been available for awhile - at least a couple years. Even
>though prominent bitterness is normal for any 85%, this Valrhona bar has
>prominent fruity flavor with little sweetness and a fair amount of
>bitterness. I don't find it as pleasant as other 85% bars,

On that we would agree. IMHO Valrhona's offering seems like a hastily-
concocted entry into the growing market. It might not be terrible, but it's
not great, either. I don't quite understand why Valrhona chose to use
African beans - the worst choice for a high-percentage extra bitter which
is better with quality mild beans. There are many, many better 85%-class
chocolates.

>specifically:
>
> - Cuba Venchi's "Cuor di Cacao 85%" which has a fairly intense but
> pleasing
>non-bitter chocolate taste with no prominent flavor notes.

That suggests you probably like Dutch process. Cuba Venchi's chocolates are
decisively Dutched. Personally, I think that makes Cuor di Cacao overly
mild and retreating, so that it falls into the same class as Valrhona, not
terrible, not great. It's definitely pleasing and non-bitter, and that it
has no prominent flavour notes is a general side effect of the Dutch
process.

> - Galler's "Noir 85%" which has an excellent floral taste and is quite
>exquisite.

Galler's is very good indeed. No bitterness, nice chocolatey flavour. It's
probably Dutched as well, but not to the same extent as Cuba Venchi if it
is. I'd say this is then next-best 85% choice to Lindt's and will probably
please more those who prefer a mild flavour.

If you like *really* mild, Marcolini's Fleur de Cacao 85% has inspired rave
reviews with many. *I* personally did not like it one bit: it was just far
too mild and tastes pretty much just like a chocolate chip cookie - in
which case I say why not simply buy such a cookie? But more that one other
person has really liked this chocolate so I'll mention it as an
alternative.

>"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
>> ...I thought an 85% Valrhona might be closer
>> to what I would like.
>>
>> It was okay, but I don't prefer it over the
>> 71%. Alex would call that "addicted to sugar"

Actually, I would call that "good taste". The 71% is much the superiour
chocolate, a far better effort from Valrhona which is always worth getting.
The drop in taste from the 71% to the 85% is like falling off a cliff.
Better still IMHO is Valrhona's Guanaja, and if you like strong fruity
chocolate you will surely be pleased with that one.

>> but I think only a few people like Alex would
>> really think 71% is too sweet. I wouldn't
>> mind trying something halfway between the two.

Bonnat's Hacienda El Rosario (75%) is a classic, excellent fruity
chocolate. Try that one and see what you think.

>> But I have found a use for the 85% bar.
>> Recently, I've been eating lots of dried wild
>> blueberries from Trader Joe's (watch out --
>> they sell both wild and farmed dried blueberries,
>> the wild ones have all the flavor). I've found
>> that eating 85% chocolate with the dried berries
>> allows the berries to provide enough sweetness
>> for both.

The *ultimate* chocolate to go with those wild blueberries is Amedei's
Chuao. It might be "only" 70%, but the intensity is unbelievable. And if
you get the 1kg bloc, it's a pretty good deal. If you don't feel like that
kind of expense, try Dolfin's 70% which also harmonises well.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Hi again, Alex,

I haven't heard of Marcolini chocolate before, but that's probably because
they have no North American distributor at this time.

Actually, I don't usually like any Dutched cocoa product and will generally
avoid it, even Guittard Bittersweet. I'm convinced the alkali processing
removes several of the healthy components of chocolate that also happen to
be acidic...and I don't mind bitter/acidic chocolate anyway.

Geoff

"Alex Rast" > wrote in message
...
> at Wed, 19 Oct 2005 01:43:25 GMT in >,
> (Geoffrey Bard) wrote :
>
>>Interesting about the dried berries - haven't noticed them at my Trader
>>Joe's, but I'm sure they are there and worth picking up.
>>
>>I suspect you're referring to the Valrhona "Le Noir Extra Amer 85%" bar
>>which has been available for awhile - at least a couple years. Even
>>though prominent bitterness is normal for any 85%, this Valrhona bar has
>>prominent fruity flavor with little sweetness and a fair amount of
>>bitterness. I don't find it as pleasant as other 85% bars,
>
> On that we would agree. IMHO Valrhona's offering seems like a hastily-
> concocted entry into the growing market. It might not be terrible, but
> it's
> not great, either. I don't quite understand why Valrhona chose to use
> African beans - the worst choice for a high-percentage extra bitter which
> is better with quality mild beans. There are many, many better 85%-class
> chocolates.
>
>>specifically:
>>
>> - Cuba Venchi's "Cuor di Cacao 85%" which has a fairly intense but
>> pleasing
>>non-bitter chocolate taste with no prominent flavor notes.
>
> That suggests you probably like Dutch process. Cuba Venchi's chocolates
> are
> decisively Dutched. Personally, I think that makes Cuor di Cacao overly
> mild and retreating, so that it falls into the same class as Valrhona, not
> terrible, not great. It's definitely pleasing and non-bitter, and that it
> has no prominent flavour notes is a general side effect of the Dutch
> process.
>
>> - Galler's "Noir 85%" which has an excellent floral taste and is quite
>>exquisite.
>
> Galler's is very good indeed. No bitterness, nice chocolatey flavour. It's
> probably Dutched as well, but not to the same extent as Cuba Venchi if it
> is. I'd say this is then next-best 85% choice to Lindt's and will probably
> please more those who prefer a mild flavour.
>
> If you like *really* mild, Marcolini's Fleur de Cacao 85% has inspired
> rave
> reviews with many. *I* personally did not like it one bit: it was just far
> too mild and tastes pretty much just like a chocolate chip cookie - in
> which case I say why not simply buy such a cookie? But more that one other
> person has really liked this chocolate so I'll mention it as an
> alternative.
>
>>"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
>>> ...I thought an 85% Valrhona might be closer
>>> to what I would like.
>>>
>>> It was okay, but I don't prefer it over the
>>> 71%. Alex would call that "addicted to sugar"
>
> Actually, I would call that "good taste". The 71% is much the superiour
> chocolate, a far better effort from Valrhona which is always worth
> getting.
> The drop in taste from the 71% to the 85% is like falling off a cliff.
> Better still IMHO is Valrhona's Guanaja, and if you like strong fruity
> chocolate you will surely be pleased with that one.
>
>>> but I think only a few people like Alex would
>>> really think 71% is too sweet. I wouldn't
>>> mind trying something halfway between the two.
>
> Bonnat's Hacienda El Rosario (75%) is a classic, excellent fruity
> chocolate. Try that one and see what you think.
>
>>> But I have found a use for the 85% bar.
>>> Recently, I've been eating lots of dried wild
>>> blueberries from Trader Joe's (watch out --
>>> they sell both wild and farmed dried blueberries,
>>> the wild ones have all the flavor). I've found
>>> that eating 85% chocolate with the dried berries
>>> allows the berries to provide enough sweetness
>>> for both.
>
> The *ultimate* chocolate to go with those wild blueberries is Amedei's
> Chuao. It might be "only" 70%, but the intensity is unbelievable. And if
> you get the 1kg bloc, it's a pretty good deal. If you don't feel like that
> kind of expense, try Dolfin's 70% which also harmonises well.
>
> --
> Alex Rast
>
> (remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

at Thu, 20 Oct 2005 22:24:57 GMT in >,
(Geoffrey Bard) wrote :

>Hi again, Alex,
>
>I haven't heard of Marcolini chocolate before, but that's probably
>because they have no North American distributor at this time.

However, you can buy from http://www.seventypercent.com and they will ship
to the US.

>Actually, I don't usually like any Dutched cocoa product and will
>generally avoid it, even Guittard Bittersweet.

Well, you like Cuba Venchi 85% (dutched), and Galler 85% (probably at least
partially dutched) so it's at most a partial avoidance.

> I'm convinced the alkali
>processing removes several of the healthy components of chocolate that
>also happen to be acidic...and I don't mind bitter/acidic chocolate
>anyway.
>
Be careful because bitter and acidic are NOT the same thing - in fact, one
might even say acidic is the reverse of bitter. Bitterness is the result of
fairly *alkaline* components whereas acidity typically comes from non-
bitter, fruitier beans. Both ultimately derive from flavonoids, and yes,
Dutching does remove some of those, but so does fermenting and roasting.
However, a short ferment will result in a chocolate with little to no
flavour depth - it will taste flat and thin, while a short roast will
create a very bright chocolate. If you are more interested in health
benefits than anything else, then this would suggest a strongly Criollo
bean with minimal ferment and roast - it will taste very fruity and light,
and this would suggest perhaps Valrhona Palmira or Porcelana del Pedregal.

So how do you know whether it's dutched, if the label doesn't specifically
say "cocoa processed with alkali"? Are these chocolatiers hiding the fact
they are doing at least a little dutching?

"Alex Rast" > wrote in message
...
> Well, you like Cuba Venchi 85% (dutched), and Galler 85% (probably at
> least
> partially dutched) so it's at most a partial avoidance.

at Fri, 21 Oct 2005 02:37:39 GMT in >,
(Geoffrey Bard) wrote :

>So how do you know whether it's dutched, if the label doesn't
>specifically say "cocoa processed with alkali"? Are these chocolatiers
>hiding the fact they are doing at least a little dutching?

What you're looking for is a distinct metallic twang at the beginning of
the flavour. Once you know what to look for, it's unmistakeable. It's hard
to put into words, but after a while you'll be able to identify Dutch
processing instantly.

As for looking on the label, the chocolatiers aren't "hiding" anything,
it's rather that it's only in the USA AFAIK that it specifically requires
the processed with alkali qualifier. Both of the chocolates you mentioned
are from Europe, where labelling laws are different.

The point to be taken, I think, from this is that Dutching isn't
necessarily a bad thing from a flavour standpoint. Now, plenty of people
lean one way or the other, the one group generally preferring natural and
the other generally preferring Dutch, but rare indeed I think is the
individual who without exception will prefer a natural or a Dutch-processed
chocolate over the other. It all depends on the specific bar and the
specific situation.

For instance, with relatively harsh beans (and this need not only be
"cheap" chocolate - e.g. Arriba and Ocumare beans can be harsh under
certain circumstances) Dutching often improves the overall flavour, because
it removes the bitter edge that numbs the tastebuds to anything else. But
with relatively gentle beans, Dutching pretty much wipes them out (e.g. God
forbid that one would Dutch a Porcelana or a Colombia Nacional) It's all
relative.

--
Alex Rast

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