I just received a flyer from Bed, Bath and Beyond.
Apparently, Calphalon has just come out with some enameled cast iron, being
sold (exclusively, they say)
by B,B&B.

The five-quart Dutch oven is $129.95; the eight-quart is
$179.99. Worth taking a look, I think.

Dora
--

"limey" > wrote in message
news:lDYJh.8933$t8.8605@trndny02...
>
> I just received a flyer from Bed, Bath and Beyond.
> Apparently, Calphalon has just come out with some enameled cast iron,
> being sold (exclusively, they say)
> by B,B&B.
>
> The five-quart Dutch oven is $129.95; the eight-quart is
> $179.99. Worth taking a look, I think.
>
> Dora
> --
Make certain you aren't paying too much for a "warehouse product". I learned
recently that both BB&B and CostCo sell "warehouse products", different from
the similar products you find at Macy's. I burned up two Costco Cuisinart
coffee grinders in a short period of time, and I suspicion that's why. The
clothes at our nearby Brooks Brothers outlet aren't the same as the clothes
at Brooks Bros. in downtown S.F. I don't go to the BB factory outlet
anymore.
We have had and still use enameled cast iron pots from Le Crueset and Copco.
At some point the enamel does wear off and off it goes to the local
salvation army.
I'd sure like to see the old "copper clad stainless" Cuisinart come back.
Hope this helps,

Kent

Kent wrote:
> "limey" > wrote in message
> news:lDYJh.8933$t8.8605@trndny02...
>>
>> I just received a flyer from Bed, Bath and Beyond.
>> Apparently, Calphalon has just come out with some enameled cast iron,
>> being sold (exclusively, they say)
>> by B,B&B.
>>
>> The five-quart Dutch oven is $129.95; the eight-quart is
>> $179.99. Worth taking a look, I think.
>>
>> Dora
>> --
> Make certain you aren't paying too much for a "warehouse product". I
> learned recently that both BB&B and CostCo sell "warehouse products",
> different from the similar products you find at Macy's. I burned up
> two Costco Cuisinart coffee grinders in a short period of time, and I
> suspicion that's why. The clothes at our nearby Brooks Brothers
> outlet aren't the same as the clothes at Brooks Bros. in downtown
> S.F. I don't go to the BB factory outlet anymore.
> We have had and still use enameled cast iron pots from Le Crueset and
> Copco. At some point the enamel does wear off and off it goes to the
> local salvation army.
> I'd sure like to see the old "copper clad stainless" Cuisinart come
> back. Hope this helps,
>
> Kent

Thanks, Kent, but I'm not in the market; I have those Cuisinart items which
I need. Just thought I'd mention it since people are often interested in
Dutch ovens.

Dora

limey wrote:
>
> Thanks, Kent, but I'm not in the market; I have those Cuisinart
> items which I need. Just thought I'd mention it since people are
> often interested in Dutch ovens.

Oops! Meant Le Creuset (although I have my share of Cuisinart, as well.)
Hmmm - I bought the Cuisinart burr grinder from Costco, which I like, so I
hope it doesn't bite the dust.

Dora

>
> Make certain you aren't paying too much for a "warehouse product". I learned
> recently that both BB&B and CostCo sell "warehouse products", different from
> the similar products you find at Macy's.


I know that some items that Costco sells are different in the way that
they package them in that perhaps Costco will include another item
that if you buy it elsewhere will not have that special item, such as
an extra bowl, etc. I know that I've called several times a company
that has something to sell at Costco to make sure that it is the same
item. Generally, I have found that every item I've called about is
the same item number that Costco sells, only that it is a different
item number because it has included something else.

I know that a lot of people buy from BB&B or Linens & Things, but for
some reason, I don't buy much there. Just look, and I always want a
little something different than what they offer, or perhaps a better
price on the same thing.

I've posted the pictures of my beat-up Le Creuset so many times; I
would never buy Le Creuset again (bought 3 pots).
I believe that they are good pans as a rule, but obviously the cooking
I was doing in them wasn't up to the task. I'm taking a chance on
Copco (Mario's 6qt pot) - cheapo at $70, and if it dies, so what, I
haven't invested my life's savings.

I bought a 12-inch Emeril skillet recently instead of buying perhaps
Cuisinart or All-Clad. It was reasonably priced. But I'm glad I
bought Emeril's because when I'm ready to buy a 14-inch, I'm ready to
foot the bill for the All-Clad. It'll probably be around $200 by the
time I get around to it.

SO------- are you saying that perhaps the Le Creuset that Costco sells
(I've seen some people posting that they are selling Le Creuset pans)
is perhaps not the REAL-DEAL?
Dee
P.S. I may have posted that Eddie Bauer told me that last time I was
at their outlet (in the last few weeks) that the clothes they sell are
'brought in.' They are not merchandise that they sell on the floor in
their stores or in their catalog. She said that they may have a few
items at the outlet that are 'returns' from either catalog or floor,
but that's it.

On Mar 14, 3:08 pm, "limey" > wrote:
> I just received a flyer from Bed, Bath and Beyond.
> Apparently, Calphalon has just come out with some enameled cast iron, being
> sold (exclusively, they say)
> by B,B&B.
>
> The five-quart Dutch oven is $129.95; the eight-quart is
> $179.99. Worth taking a look, I think.

Not for nothing but I was at WalMart the other day (yes... I know it
is evil) and saw a dead ringer knockoff for the Le Creuset 3 quart
covered brazier and 6 quart dutch oven. Same quality. The brazier was
$29, the dutch oven was $39. I bought the brazier. My other Le Creuset
pots were offended but I explained it to them this way... your company
has moved it's manufacture to China, the Chinese are smart. The
factory does a little moonlighting.

Saw All Clad knockoffs too. Same story. Full aluminum cores, mirror
polished SS inside and out, nickel-stainless handle, pouring rims. The
12" skillet was $29. This was not flimsy stuff... it's the real
deal.

On Mar 15, 12:55 pm, "Will" > wrote:

>
> Saw All Clad knockoffs too. Same story. Full aluminum cores, mirror
> polished SS inside and out, nickel-stainless handle, pouring rims. The
> 12" skillet was $29. This was not flimsy stuff... it's the real
> deal.

I'm not sure what you mean "...it's the real deal."
Please 'splain for my noggin' head.
Thanks.
Dee Dee

On Mar 15, 12:07 pm, "Dee Dee" > wrote:
> On Mar 15, 12:55 pm, "Will" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Saw All Clad knockoffs too. Same story. Full aluminum cores, mirror
> > polished SS inside and out, nickel-stainless handle, pouring rims. The
> > 12" skillet was $29. This was not flimsy stuff... it's the real
> > deal.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean "...it's the real deal."
> Please 'splain for my noggin' head.
> Thanks.
> Dee Dee

I mean it looks like, feels like and is constructed like... All Clad.
If I had to take a bet, I would say it's being made at the same
facility.
If I was All Clad... I would be very nervous. This will kill their
business. There is no way I'll ever fork out the big bucks again <g>.

In article .com>,
says...
> Not for nothing but I was at WalMart the other day (yes... I know it
> is evil) and saw a dead ringer knockoff for the Le Creuset 3 quart
> covered brazier and 6 quart dutch oven. Same quality.
>

You know Walmart is evil yet you still shop there? Shame. Is saving a
few bucks that important to you?

And, how do you know "same quality?" Looks do not tell all. Will it
still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
oven that my parents gave me? Probably not.


--
Peter Aitken

On Mar 15, 12:43 pm, Peter A > wrote:

> Is saving a
> few bucks that important to you?
>
> And, how do you know "same quality?" Looks do not tell all. Will it
> still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
> oven that my parents gave me? Probably not.
>
> --
> Peter Aitken

Peter... I understand your sentiments. I am not a WalMart fan. I
wasn't at WalMart to buy pots and pans, I had slipped in to buy cod
liver oil since it is convenient to where I grocery shop. And they are
one of the few retailers that carry it....

As for saving a few bucks... The Le Creuset and All Clad folks have
moved their production to China. They are saving the big $$$. And I
think they are about to get pounded...

What I saw at WalMart was so much like the original of these lines I
was stunned. I really looked this stuff over. You might be right about
being fooled but I have Le Creuset and All Clad equipment. And when I
was done looking I was more than a little aggravated. That $29 brazier
under the Le Creuset moniker is going for $139 at Amazon. And for
$29... the lid rim and pot rim were both machined to fit perfectly.
Meaning...there were no manufacturing shortcuts.

Will > wrote:

> I mean it looks like, feels like and is constructed like... All Clad.
> If I had to take a bet, I would say it's being made at the same
> facility.
> If I was All Clad... I would be very nervous. This will kill their
> business. There is no way I'll ever fork out the big bucks again <g>.

I wouldn't worry for All Clad. They sell cachet as much as quality.
You won't find them selling under that name at WalMart because that
would "devalue" the brand name. The thing is, All Clad *might* sell
their stuff under a house brand name to WalMart, or as you suggest
maybe just All Clad's Chinese supplier is doing it.

Radio Shack used to do this on some high-end audio equipment back
in the 70s. You could buy some *identical* equipment made in the
same plant as the big name stuff, but with Radio Shack's brand on
it you could get it for less. You had to know what you were looking
at, because they also carried a lot of real junk, but if you could
recognize the gems you could save a bunch of money. The big name
companies didn't lose business, either, because some people have
to buy the name.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

"Will" > wrote:
> As for saving a few bucks... The Le Creuset and All Clad folks have
> moved their production to China. They are saving the big $$$. And I
> think they are about to get pounded...

Actually, they haven't, at least not completely. But perhaps it might not be
too long before they do. The last I looked, all Le Creuset enameled cast
iron was still made in France (and that origin is cast right into the bottom
of the piece). The enameled steel (like tea kettles, etc.) were made
elsewhere. The stoneware was made in Thailand. What got me about the
stoneware as the origins in Thailand were either on the box or on a
removable label, though the Le Creuset name was cast into the ceramic on the
bottom). Deceptive, if you ask me. The origins should have been cast in just
as the name, like on the cast iron pieces.

The last I looked on All Clad, the fully clad pieces were still made in
Pennsylvania, but all the stainless with aluminum disk bottom pieces were
made overseas (China, I believe). All the utensils were also made overseas.

Due to the relative labor rates in the USA and France, vs. the labor rates
in China and the Far East, eventually almost all manufacturing is going to
leave both countries. The exception will be certain specialty items where
the labor rates don't factor into the equation so strongly.

--
wff_ng_7 (at) verizon (dot) net

In article <zahKh.1464$Eg4.862@trnddc03>, says...
> Actually, they haven't, at least not completely. But perhaps it might not be
> too long before they do. The last I looked, all Le Creuset enameled cast
> iron was still made in France (and that origin is cast right into the bottom
> of the piece). The enameled steel (like tea kettles, etc.) were made
> elsewhere. The stoneware was made in Thailand. What got me about the
> stoneware as the origins in Thailand were either on the box or on a
> removable label, though the Le Creuset name was cast into the ceramic on the
> bottom). Deceptive, if you ask me. The origins should have been cast in just
> as the name, like on the cast iron pieces.
>
> The last I looked on All Clad, the fully clad pieces were still made in
> Pennsylvania, but all the stainless with aluminum disk bottom pieces were
> made overseas (China, I believe). All the utensils were also made overseas.
>
> Due to the relative labor rates in the USA and France, vs. the labor rates
> in China and the Far East, eventually almost all manufacturing is going to
> leave both countries. The exception will be certain specialty items where
> the labor rates don't factor into the equation so strongly.
>

I think that it's silly to put too much emphasis on where something is
made. There are BMWs made in South Carolina, Leica cameras made in
Portugal, Sony TVs made in Vietnam, LL Bean clothing made in Sri Lanka,
and so on.

Let's face it, the task of making high-quality items is within the
capabilities of almost anyone provided they are given the right
training, equipment, and materials, and are not required to hurry to
meet quotas.

Of course, some "brand names" have moved production overseas with a drop
in quality. But other brand names have stayed home and also suffered a
quality drop.


--
Peter Aitken

"Peter A" > wrote:
> I think that it's silly to put too much emphasis on where something is
> made. There are BMWs made in South Carolina, Leica cameras made in
> Portugal, Sony TVs made in Vietnam, LL Bean clothing made in Sri Lanka,
> and so on.
>
> Let's face it, the task of making high-quality items is within the
> capabilities of almost anyone provided they are given the right
> training, equipment, and materials, and are not required to hurry to
> meet quotas.
>
> Of course, some "brand names" have moved production overseas with a drop
> in quality. But other brand names have stayed home and also suffered a
> quality drop.

To me, it's not really an issue of quality, although I have seen some really
abysmal quality products coming out of China and other Far East countries.
To me, there are two issues. On is that the lower labor rates are not
reflected in the product prices on these high end products. Someone is
pocketing the difference between the labor rates of the USA, Canada or
Western Europe vs. those in the Far East. The second is the labor rates in
those lower cost countries do not support the health care, retirement, and
other benefits that are widespread in Western countries. The eventual
outcome of only being willing to pay the lower labor rates is eventually we
will also take on the lower benefit structures. I know people in high tech
new economy jobs thought they were insulated against what is happening in
manufacturing. Little did they realize that their jobs too could be
outsourced overseas. In some cases, it is even easier to do that than move
manufacturing jobs. In case you are not aware, some of the job types that
have been moved quite easily are tech support, radiology analysis,
architectural services, etc. The internet and other communications services
makes it very easy.

Regarding quality, I put China about at the same point that Japan was in the
late 1950s, early 1960s. "Made in Japan" was a sign of inferior quality at
one point, before it became a sign of high quality. There's at least one
whole generation, if not two, that have no recollection of the earlier
status of the phrase "Made in Japan".

--
wff_ng_7 (at) verizon (dot) net

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:43:27 -0400, Peter A > wrote:

>... Will it still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
>oven that my parents gave me? Probably not.

Peter, that may be a good point for some, but not for all. I just turned 60.
Will *I* still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
Oven? Probably not.

Therefore, do I care if WalMart enameled cast iron will last over 30 years?

Hmmm -- probably not. I'd probably rather dump the odd $100 into supper out, or
an order from Lobel's. 8

Everyone's situation and priorities are different.

-- Larry

On Mar 15, 3:40 pm, pltrgyst > wrote:

> Will *I* still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
> Oven? Probably not.
>
> Therefore, do I care if WalMart enameled cast iron will last over 30 years?

Well here's the thing... and I am still grappling with the
ramifications...
The WalMart piece is AS GOOD. You have to look for it, because there's
a lot of crap on the shelves around it, but once it's in your hands,
in front of your eyes, there's no question, no confusion. It is AS
GOOD.

The notion that you can segment the market and sell under one name to
Williams-Sonoma and under another to WalMart only works as long as you
are certain that your customer never shops both businesses.

In the past that's been a safe bet. But you can bet those high-end
customers are internet savvy. More to the point, they are the very
folks that read and write in Usenet. And if they are curious...

In article <J2iKh.3407$I56.1757@trnddc06>,
says...
> "Peter A" > wrote:
> > I think that it's silly to put too much emphasis on where something is
> > made. There are BMWs made in South Carolina, Leica cameras made in
> > Portugal, Sony TVs made in Vietnam, LL Bean clothing made in Sri Lanka,
> > and so on.
> >
> > Let's face it, the task of making high-quality items is within the
> > capabilities of almost anyone provided they are given the right
> > training, equipment, and materials, and are not required to hurry to
> > meet quotas.
> >
> > Of course, some "brand names" have moved production overseas with a drop
> > in quality. But other brand names have stayed home and also suffered a
> > quality drop.
>
> To me, it's not really an issue of quality, although I have seen some really
> abysmal quality products coming out of China and other Far East countries.
> To me, there are two issues. On is that the lower labor rates are not
> reflected in the product prices on these high end products. Someone is
> pocketing the difference between the labor rates of the USA, Canada or
> Western Europe vs. those in the Far East. The second is the labor rates in
> those lower cost countries do not support the health care, retirement, and
> other benefits that are widespread in Western countries. The eventual
> outcome of only being willing to pay the lower labor rates is eventually we
> will also take on the lower benefit structures. I know people in high tech
> new economy jobs thought they were insulated against what is happening in
> manufacturing. Little did they realize that their jobs too could be
> outsourced overseas. In some cases, it is even easier to do that than move
> manufacturing jobs. In case you are not aware, some of the job types that
> have been moved quite easily are tech support, radiology analysis,
> architectural services, etc. The internet and other communications services
> makes it very easy.
>
> Regarding quality, I put China about at the same point that Japan was in the
> late 1950s, early 1960s. "Made in Japan" was a sign of inferior quality at
> one point, before it became a sign of high quality. There's at least one
> whole generation, if not two, that have no recollection of the earlier
> status of the phrase "Made in Japan".
>
>

In general I agree with you. Corporations exist to make money, and the
way the economy is structured they have very little choice but to seek
out the lowest cost method of making their goods. As you point out, some
do it just to increase profits without any intention of passing lower
costs to their customers. And, decent-paying jobs with reasonable
benefits slowly disappear as the corporate fat-cats get richer.

If there's a solution to this problem, I sure would like to know about
it.

--
Peter Aitken

In article >,
says...
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:43:27 -0400, Peter A > wrote:
>
> >... Will it still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
> >oven that my parents gave me? Probably not.
>
> Peter, that may be a good point for some, but not for all. I just turned 60.
> Will *I* still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
> Oven? Probably not.
>
> Therefore, do I care if WalMart enameled cast iron will last over 30 years?
>
> Hmmm -- probably not. I'd probably rather dump the odd $100 into supper out, or
> an order from Lobel's. 8
>
> Everyone's situation and priorities are different.
>
> -- Larry
>

I see your point. Can't you put it in your will <g>?

Happy birthday - I just turned 60 too. I don't feel or look a day over
59.

--
Peter Aitken

On Mar 15, 4:04 pm, Peter A > wrote:
> In article <zahKh.1464$Eg4.862@trnddc03>, says...
>

First of all, I'm am not disputing the fact that 'you' think it is
silly to put too much emphasis on where something is made."

I choose to buy 'where' something is made for several factors; and not
for political reasons,
For instance, I find it uncanny that I break out wearing cotton
material made in India, and the fact that the grasshoppers that come
into my house will only eat clothing made in India. Something
systemic about the cotton grown there, IMO. Same with their straw-
type handbags. I will go further to say that for the same reason I do
not buy anything made in Pakistan or Bangledesh. Must be those
varmits and critters. :--))))


>
> Of course, some "brand names" have moved production overseas with a drop
> in quality. But other brand names have stayed home and also suffered a
> quality drop.

Peter A wrote:
>>
>>> ... Will it still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart
>>> le Creuset Dutch oven that my parents gave me? Probably not.
>>
>> Peter, that may be a good point for some, but not for all. I just
>> turned 60. Will *I* still be going strong after 30 years like the 8
>> quart le Creuset Dutch Oven? Probably not.
>>
>> Therefore, do I care if WalMart enameled cast iron will last over 30
>> years?
>>
>> Hmmm -- probably not. I'd probably rather dump the odd $100 into
>> supper out, or an order from Lobel's. 8
>>
>> Everyone's situation and priorities are different.
>>
>> -- Larry
>>
>
> I see your point. Can't you put it in your will <g>?
>
> Happy birthday - I just turned 60 too. I don't feel or look a day over
> 59.

What the heck - I'm over 80. I can leave my Le Creuset in my will but
what do I care if I'm investing in a $30 brazier from Walmart? <G>

Our house burned four years ago and had to be rebuilt. The builder
asked, "Do you want 20-year shingles, or 30-year shingles?". I told him
it all depended on whether we wanted to replace the roof again when we
were 98 or 108. Everything's relative.

Dora

On Mar 15, 4:31 pm, "wff_ng_7" > wrote:
In case you are not aware, some of the job types that
> have been moved quite easily are tech support, radiology analysis,
> architectural services, etc. The internet and other communications services
> makes it very easy.>
wff_ng_7 (at) verizon (dot) net

Upon hearinga few months ago re radiology analysis readings being sent
offshore, it made me wonder about the change in the fabulous care I
was getting at Georgetown with their reading of mammograms. For 8
years, I had but little trouble making an appointment the same day for
a mammogram, and then later in the day with the surgeon to read the
mammogram, after the radiologist (M.D.) had read it and gave the
report and mammogram to the surgeon.

Now, the report will not be done the same day, the mammogram x-ray
will not be sent to the surgeon the same day. This, I know, is what
all mammogram & doctors' 'units' have done for years; however,
Georgetown was a cut-above in this regard and it was especially highly
regarded by me as I had had breast cancer and the waiting between x-
ray and reading is an especially hard time waiting. This "diagnostic"
mammogram was done for those who were considered "at risk" and also as
a courtesy to me because of distance to GT. No more. I don't doubt
that the x-ray is being sent elsewhere for write up and diagnosis,
even though there is an M.D. there who does intially read it that
day. I don't doubt that it could be being sent out-of-country. I
don't know that is the case, but these are my suspicions.

OTOH, I am not saying that other countries cannot read mammograms and
make diagnoses, but ... so on, ad infinitum.
Dee

On Mar 15, 4:40 pm, pltrgyst > wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 13:43:27 -0400, Peter A > wrote:
> >... Will it still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
> >oven that my parents gave me? Probably not.
>
> Peter, that may be a good point for some, but not for all. I just turned 60.
> Will *I* still be going strong after 30 years like the 8 quart le Creuset Dutch
> Oven? Probably not.
>
> Therefore, do I care if WalMart enameled cast iron will last over 30 years?
>
> Hmmm -- probably not. I'd probably rather dump the odd $100 into supper out, or
> an order from Lobel's. 8
>
> Everyone's situation and priorities are different.
>
> -- Larry

I only expect something to last until I'm 80! That's it. (Only
another 9 years.) Chances are kids don't give a damn about cooking,
and if they do, they'll prefer something else. I dumped my Le
Creusets (with remorse of course), but if I still had them, would I
pop for Bateli's pot? DH would probably talk me out of it.

Where/whut the heck is Lobel's? :-)))
Dee

On Mar 15, 5:22 pm, "Will" > wrote:
> On Mar 15, 3:40 pm, pltrgyst > wrote:

> The WalMart piece is AS GOOD. You have to look for it, because there's
> a lot of crap on the shelves around it, but once it's in your hands,
> in front of your eyes, there's no question, no confusion. It is AS
> GOOD.

By Golly, I'm going to look-see, next time I get to a Walmart. The
only think I go to Walmart for is Distilled Water, and the other day I
smelled chlorine in one of the jugs! I want to buy a big distiller,
but since I had one years ago, DH says a resounding NO, no more.

What state did you see one of these Walmart "As Good" pieces - was it
a Super-Center?


>
> The notion that you can segment the market and sell under one name to
> Williams-Sonoma and under another to WalMart only works as long as you
> are certain that your customer never shops both businesses.

Well, I go to each one almost the same ratio -- seldom. I usually buy
maybe one thing each time I visit each store --


>
> In the past that's been a safe bet. But you can bet those high-end
> customers are internet savvy. More to the point, they are the very
> folks that read and write in Usenet. And if they are curious...

Always curious.
Dee

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 17:59:31 -0400, Peter A > wrote:

>I see your point. Can't you put it in your will <g>?
>
>Happy birthday - I just turned 60 too. I don't feel or look a day over
>59.

You too. When we hit puberty, we're going to be dangerous. 8 My wife says
it's time to start thinking about giving up sports like football and basketball,
and selling the race cars and motorcycles, but she's only 53, so what does she
know?

Actually, my 7.25 enameled monster is Le Creuset. But I will be checking out the
Walmart this weekend.

I would like a larger one, around 9 qt, since the 13 qt must weigh more than I
do, but the inexpensive enameled cast iron lines I've seen so far (Rachel Ray,
etc.) don't offer anything over 7 qt.

-- Larry

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:18:18 GMT, "limey" > wrote:

>What the heck - I'm over 80. I can leave my Le Creuset in my will but
>what do I care if I'm investing in a $30 brazier from Walmart? <G>

Congratulations! You can be our role model. Although 80 doesn't seem as advanced
to me as it used to...my Mom is 87, and my MIL is coming up on 91, both still
going strong.

>Our house burned four years ago and had to be rebuilt. The builder
>asked, "Do you want 20-year shingles, or 30-year shingles?". I told him
>it all depended on whether we wanted to replace the roof again when we
>were 98 or 108. Everything's relative.

So -- which did you choose? 8

-- Larry

On 15 Mar 2007 15:31:33 -0700, "Dee Dee" > wrote:

>Where/whut the heck is Lobel's? :-)))

Terrific meat emporium in NYC. They ship overnight very reliably. www.lobels.com

Very expensive, but choosing wisely by portion size, things like their veal loin
medallions and hangar steaks are real treats for special meals. And their Wagyu
beef and Kurubuta pork are hard to equal anywhere, even if they do necessitate a
second mortgage.

In our experience, they're absolutely reliable for next day delivery for special
occasion meals or dinner parties.

-- Larry

On Mar 15, 7:34 pm, pltrgyst > wrote:
> On 15 Mar 2007 15:31:33 -0700, "Dee Dee" > wrote:
>
> >Where/whut the heck is Lobel's? :-)))
>
> Terrific meat emporium in NYC. They ship overnight very reliably.www.lobels.com
>
> Very expensive, but choosing wisely by portion size, things like their veal loin
> medallions and hangar steaks are real treats for special meals. And their Wagyu
> beef and Kurubuta pork are hard to equal anywhere, even if they do necessitate a
> second mortgage.
>
> In our experience, they're absolutely reliable for next day delivery for special
> occasion meals or dinner parties.
>
> -- Larry

Thanks for Lobel's information. Interesting site, paired with Robert
Parker, I see.
Still haven't touched the beer you recommend that we bought. DH got
some Flying Dog and some white Trader Joe's wines in for me until
after the 20th when I get the permanent crowns for the 3 front
teeth.

I know when beer is OK for me when I don't hiccup or stomach heave
after the first sip -- Flying Dog is not bad - a U.S. beer - Costco
around $24.

Dee

"wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
>
> Due to the relative labor rates in the USA and France, vs. the labor rates
> in China and the Far East, eventually almost all manufacturing is going to
> leave both countries. The exception will be certain specialty items where
> the labor rates don't factor into the equation so strongly.

In this case, it is not just labor rates but the cost of the Euro. It is
running about 1.33 right now making most anything from Europe costly.

On 15 Mar 2007 18:34:48 -0700, "Dee Dee" > wrote:

>Still haven't touched the beer you recommend that we bought. DH got
>some Flying Dog and some white Trader Joe's wines in for me until
>after the 20th when I get the permanent crowns for the 3 front
>teeth.

The wait will be worthwhile, I'm sure. Hang in there!

>I know when beer is OK for me when I don't hiccup or stomach heave
>after the first sip -- Flying Dog is not bad - a U.S. beer - Costco
>around $24.

Which Flying Dog? Probably the amber lager, or the pale ale? I really like their
Road Dog Porter. Too bad the brewery is in Aspen, which is a pain to get to a
lot of the time when we're out in CO -- snow, traffic, or both.

-- Larry

"Peter A" > wrote:
> In general I agree with you. Corporations exist to make money, and the
> way the economy is structured they have very little choice but to seek
> out the lowest cost method of making their goods. As you point out, some
> do it just to increase profits without any intention of passing lower
> costs to their customers. And, decent-paying jobs with reasonable
> benefits slowly disappear as the corporate fat-cats get richer.
>
> If there's a solution to this problem, I sure would like to know about
> it.

Unfortunately, I think the "cat is out of the bag", so to speak, and the
natural course of events is going to have to take place. Once we headed down
this path to globalization, I think there were certain unavoidable
consequences. I believe that one of those consequences will be a relatively
lower standard of living in the USA. I think a lot of people are in for a
rude awakening.

The only thing we can realistically do right now, and it's not going to help
a whole lot, is to force China to float its currency to make trade more
equitable.

--
wff_ng_7 (at) verizon (dot) net

"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:
> "wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
>>
>> Due to the relative labor rates in the USA and France, vs. the labor
>> rates in China and the Far East, eventually almost all manufacturing is
>> going to leave both countries. The exception will be certain specialty
>> items where the labor rates don't factor into the equation so strongly.
>
> In this case, it is not just labor rates but the cost of the Euro. It is
> running about 1.33 right now making most anything from Europe costly.

That rate is truly amazing, considering it was 0.87 within the last few
years. One would think that any business decisions made at the lower rate
would be blown out of the water at the current higher rate.

--
wff_ng_7 (at) verizon (dot) net

On Mar 15, 10:23 pm, pltrgyst > wrote:
> On 15 Mar 2007 18:34:48 -0700, "Dee Dee" > wrote:
>
> >Still haven't touched the beer you recommend that we bought. DH got
> >some Flying Dog and some white Trader Joe's wines in for me until
> >after the 20th when I get the permanent crowns for the 3 front
> >teeth.
>
> The wait will be worthwhile, I'm sure. Hang in there!
>
> >I know when beer is OK for me when I don't hiccup or stomach heave
> >after the first sip -- Flying Dog is not bad - a U.S. beer - Costco
> >around $24.
>
> Which Flying Dog? Probably the amber lager, or the pale ale? I really like their
> Road Dog Porter. Too bad the brewery is in Aspen, which is a pain to get to a
> lot of the time when we're out in CO -- snow, traffic, or both.
>
> -- Larry

I just now looked in the refrigerator. We have Road Dog Porter and
Pale Ale. But I prefer the pale ale. I can only drink beer ICE
cold. I'm definitely not a limey.
Dee

"wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
news:nknKh.2118$y56.241@trnddc07...
> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:
>> "wff_ng_7" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> Due to the relative labor rates in the USA and France, vs. the labor
>>> rates in China and the Far East, eventually almost all manufacturing is
>>> going to leave both countries. The exception will be certain specialty
>>> items where the labor rates don't factor into the equation so strongly.
>>
>> In this case, it is not just labor rates but the cost of the Euro. It is
>> running about 1.33 right now making most anything from Europe costly.
>
> That rate is truly amazing, considering it was 0.87 within the last few
> years. One would think that any business decisions made at the lower rate
> would be blown out of the water at the current higher rate.
>
> --
> wff_ng_7 (at) verizon (dot) net

Last year at this time is was 1.21 In 2000 is was .97 I want to buy a
machine, same as the one we bought back then, but the price today is just
too high to justify right now. Every move of .01 is $2000 And there are no
US manufacturers of the equipment.

I'm heading that way next week and the cost of everything will be high
compared to here. I was able to pre-pay some costs a few months ago and
save a bit that way, especially on air fare.

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 02:31:47 GMT, "wff_ng_7" > wrote:

>That rate is truly amazing, considering it was 0.87 within the last few
>years. One would think that any business decisions made at the lower rate
>would be blown out of the water at the current higher rate.

That's where it started, when the Euro began on 1/1/2002, but it rose slightly
after that and never reached that low again.

And when the Euro came into play, prices went up on almost all small items
immediately, as sellers just rounded up to the next whole Euro.

We were in Strasbourg, France that New Year's Day, and loving it -- until we
couldn't get our car out of the automated parking garage because the machines
hadn't been updated. 8

Europe has been a bit more expensive every year since then. Now it's really
tough.

-- Larry

pltrgyst wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:18:18 GMT, "limey" > wrote:
>
>> What the heck - I'm over 80. I can leave my Le Creuset in my will
>> but what do I care if I'm investing in a $30 brazier from Walmart?
>> <G>
>
> Congratulations! You can be our role model. Although 80 doesn't seem
> as advanced to me as it used to...my Mom is 87, and my MIL is coming
> up on 91, both still going strong.
>
>> Our house burned four years ago and had to be rebuilt. The builder
>> asked, "Do you want 20-year shingles, or 30-year shingles?". I told
>> him it all depended on whether we wanted to replace the roof again
>> when we were 98 or 108. Everything's relative.
>
> So -- which did you choose? 8
>
> -- Larry

Why, the 30-year shingles, of course! Why look on the dark side? <G>

Dora

Dee Dee wrote:
>
> I just now looked in the refrigerator. We have Road Dog Porter and
> Pale Ale. But I prefer the pale ale. I can only drink beer ICE
> cold. I'm definitely not a limey.
> Dee

Hey, I'm a limey and I don't even like beer, hot or cold!!
(grin)

Dora

pltrgyst wrote:
>
> Which Flying Dog? Probably the amber lager, or the pale ale? I really
> like their Road Dog Porter. Too bad the brewery is in Aspen, which is
> a pain to get to a lot of the time when we're out in CO -- snow,
> traffic, or both.
>
> -- Larry

Larry and Dee, forgive me for butting in. In cooking, can I substitute
porter for Guinness? I can buy porter by the bottle but Guinness only
in a six-pack. I have a recipe calling for Guinness that I want to try
but don't want to dump five bottles of the stuff if I don't like the
recipe.
(No, we don't have any Guinness-drinking friends!)

Dora

In article <6IyKh.183$1a6.143@trnddc08>, says...
> pltrgyst wrote:
> >
> > Which Flying Dog? Probably the amber lager, or the pale ale? I really
> > like their Road Dog Porter. Too bad the brewery is in Aspen, which is
> > a pain to get to a lot of the time when we're out in CO -- snow,
> > traffic, or both.
> >
> > -- Larry
>
> Larry and Dee, forgive me for butting in. In cooking, can I substitute
> porter for Guinness? I can buy porter by the bottle but Guinness only
> in a six-pack. I have a recipe calling for Guinness that I want to try
> but don't want to dump five bottles of the stuff if I don't like the
> recipe.
> (No, we don't have any Guinness-drinking friends!)
>
> Dora
>
>

Stout and porter are very similar although stout tends to be more
strongly flavored. In fact, IIRC, strong tasting porter became called
"stout porter" and then just "stout."

In every supermarket I have seen you can buy single cans of Guinness.
Check out the "singles" area of the beer cooler.

--
Peter Aitken

Peter A wrote:
> In article <6IyKh.183$1a6.143@trnddc08>, says...
>> pltrgyst wrote:
>>>
>>> Which Flying Dog? Probably the amber lager, or the pale ale? I
>>> really like their Road Dog Porter. Too bad the brewery is in Aspen,
>>> which is a pain to get to a lot of the time when we're out in CO --
>>> snow, traffic, or both.
>>>
>>> -- Larry
>>
>> Larry and Dee, forgive me for butting in. In cooking, can I
>> substitute porter for Guinness? I can buy porter by the bottle but
>> Guinness only in a six-pack. I have a recipe calling for Guinness
>> that I want to try but don't want to dump five bottles of the stuff
>> if I don't like the recipe.
>> (No, we don't have any Guinness-drinking friends!)
>>
>> Dora
>>
>>
>
> Stout and porter are very similar although stout tends to be more
> strongly flavored. In fact, IIRC, strong tasting porter became called
> "stout porter" and then just "stout."
>
> In every supermarket I have seen you can buy single cans of Guinness.
> Check out the "singles" area of the beer cooler.

Thanks, Peter - I'll try the porter. Unfortunately, local laws don't
permit sales of beer, wine or liquor in supermarkets. A chosen few have
"special dispensation" but the nearest to me is 25 miles away. I'm
stuck with liquor stores, who don't split a six-pack. Maybe a local bar
will sell me an unopened bottle?

Dora

On Fri, 16 Mar 2007 15:24:25 GMT, "limey" > wrote:

>Hey, I'm a limey and I don't even like beer, hot or cold!!


Not even Shandy Gaff? 8

-- Larry (closet Welshman...)