Aileen wrote:
> Hi all:
> I presently own a Thermador 36" with griddle which I have had no
> problems with to date.
> I will be setting up a new kitchen and want to go to a 48" with grill.
> One friend loves his Viking ....another person swears by wolf.
> I want an all gas stove but I would like to know what advantages there
> are between Wolf vs Viking and sealed vs non sealed burners. I would
> like the opinions of as many folk as possible.
> I presently have sealed burners and I do think they are a pain in the
> @$$ to clean. What opinions do you guys have?
> I am not interested in other brands...I only have access to Wolf and
> Viking.
> Thanks for the help!!! Aileen in the Freezing North
>

There was a recent thread on pro stoves in this group, check back about
a week for it. There is also a substantial discussion on gardenweb.com,
and if you're into paying $4.95 for a month's worth of access, the
Consumer Reports site also has a discussion (but not formal reviews).

From what I've been able to find on the web, Viking seems to have the
worst rap when it comes to build quality and service, Wolf and Thermador
seem to have some of the best feedback.

Out of curiosity, how long have you had the Thermador?

We currently have sealed burners on a 30" range, and I'm having trouble
imagining why they would be more difficult to clean than non-sealed.

Cheers - Gregg

Gregg & Jackie wrote:


>
>Out of curiosity, how long have you had the Thermador?
>
> We currently have sealed burners on a 30" range, and I'm having trouble
> imagining why they would be more difficult to clean than non-sealed.
>
I have had my Thermador for almost five years. I find that the spills
burn onto the porcelain part and I can not find
a product where I live that is abrasive enough to remove the greasey gunk.
I am wondering if the nonsealed just require cleaning of the tray part
on rollers..... no porcelain bits.
I also was wondering if I recall correctly that non sealed burners
result in higher BTUs.

Thanks all, Aileen ( still freezing)

Aileen wrote:
>
> Gregg & Jackie wrote:
>>
>> Out of curiosity, how long have you had the Thermador?
>>
>> We currently have sealed burners on a 30" range, and I'm having
>> trouble imagining why they would be more difficult to clean than
>> non-sealed.
>>
> I have had my Thermador for almost five years. I find that the spills
> burn onto the porcelain part and I can not find
> a product where I live that is abrasive enough to remove the greasey gunk.

Have you tried a degreaser like Citrisolve?

> I am wondering if the nonsealed just require cleaning of the tray part
> on rollers..... no porcelain bits.

IMHO the problem with the non-sealed is that grease then ends up in
places under the burner where you cannot clean, like the gas pipes
leading to the burner, etc. The tray might be easier (and out of sight
if it's not completely clean) but I think the inside of the stove ends
up a lot gunkier in the long run.

> I also was wondering if I recall correctly that non sealed burners
> result in higher BTUs.

Hmm, don't recall seeing anything on that. A salesman told me that all
the pro lines are going to sealed burners, so you might not have a
choice (at least if buying new) in the not so distant future.

- Gregg

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 00:01:04 -0400, Aileen > wrote:


>I have had my Thermador for almost five years. I find that the spills
>burn onto the porcelain part and I can not find
>a product where I live that is abrasive enough to remove the greasey gunk.
>I am wondering if the nonsealed just require cleaning of the tray part
>on rollers..... no porcelain bits.
>I also was wondering if I recall correctly that non sealed burners
>result in higher BTUs.
>

I have an older (30+ years) open burner range. With spills
you will get a portion of the spill going down between the
burner and the stovetop. If you have a drip pan then cleanup
of the spill in the lower part is pretty easy. HOWEVER, not
all of that spill goes conveniently down into the drip pan. You
will still have parts of the spill on the surface of the cooktop
and that can get burned in if you don't clean it up quick
enough.

There is also the problem that at high flame settings the
flame will deposit a black, carbon film on the cooktop
if the flame is close enough to the surface of the cooktop.
This is extremely difficult to remove. This can happen with
open or sealed burners.

I would try a degreaser as has been suggested for
the gunk. You have to be careful with abrasives
with a porcelain coating as you will rub the
porcelain coating off and have bare metal. You
can also roughen up the surface of the porcelain
and make it harder and harder to clean in the
future.

Sealed burners are not inherently less powerful
than open burners as far as BTUs/HR go. Some
of the multi-ring sealed power burners from Fisher &
Paykel, Miele, Gaggenau, Windcrest, Elan etc. will
produce just as powerful flames as the "pro-line"
consumer open burner stoves. There are design
differences that make a difference for specific
applications. Single ring sealed burners with high
BTUs/HR tend to throw the flame out more than
the open burner multi-ring port models such as
Blue Star. The Blue Star might perform better for
concentrating the heat for wok cooking. Both
designs would work fine for boiling large pots of
water (pasta or seafood boils) or high temperature
sauteing in large pans. The multi-ring sealed
burners would concentrate the heat near the
center like the Blue Star and should work well
for wok cooking.

I'm leaning towards a cooktop with a multi-ring
sealed power burner and other single ring less
powerful burners myself for my upgrade.

Greg Muncill

Thanks to all... I now can "chew" on this info. I think I need a cup of
tea Aileen ( freezing less today)

"Aileen" > wrote in message
...
> Hi all:
> I presently own a Thermador 36" with griddle which I have had no
> problems with to date.
> I will be setting up a new kitchen and want to go to a 48" with grill.
> One friend loves his Viking ....another person swears by wolf.
> I want an all gas stove but I would like to know what advantages there
> are between Wolf vs Viking and sealed vs non sealed burners. I would
> like the opinions of as many folk as possible.
> I presently have sealed burners and I do think they are a pain in the
> @$$ to clean. What opinions do you guys have?
> I am not interested in other brands...I only have access to Wolf and
Viking.
> Thanks for the help!!! Aileen in the Freezing North
>

This may sound strange, but I have found that a razor blade scraper helps in
removing the most difficult burned-on deposits from a porcelain surface.
Porcelain is basically glass, which is harder than the steel of the blade,
so you don't scratch the porcelain. It's roughly analagous to scraping paint
off a window pane after painting.

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 14:12:51 -0400, Aileen > wrote:

>Thanks to all... I now can "chew" on this info. I think I need a cup of
>tea Aileen ( freezing less today)

Hi Aileen,

One other thought...

I too was an "all gas" fan, but eventually bought a dual fuel DCS
(which, by the way, we are happy with.

The virtue of the dual fuel is that we get better broiling and also
have the self cleaning feature. Of course, the range top is "all gas."

'Just one more thing to consider...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:55:50 -0500, "Dsorgnzd" > wrote:


>
>This may sound strange, but I have found that a razor blade scraper helps in
>removing the most difficult burned-on deposits from a porcelain surface.
>Porcelain is basically glass, which is harder than the steel of the blade,
>so you don't scratch the porcelain. It's roughly analagous to scraping paint
>off a window pane after painting.
>

I'm not going to state that you are not able to clean
your surface with a razor blade but most porcelain can
be at the most as hard as glass or steel (your razor blade),
but can also be softer. Most porcelains falls into
a Mohs scale of hardness between 4 and 5.5.

<http://www.porcelainenamel.com/pei502.htm>

Glass is near the upper end of porcelain at 5.5 and
steel can be 5.5 to 6.5 in hardness.

<http://waldaninternational.com/hardnessDef.shtml>

The porcelain and steel can vary according to
composition. So, not scratching your porcelain
does not mean not scratching someone else's
porcelain.

Also, if the porcelain has been roughened or
abraded by using abrasives before using the
razor blade, the ability to scrape the deposit
will be degraded.

Greg Muncill