Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're replacing
it.

My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
machines?

Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the up-market
makes are worth the difference?


Regards and thanks in advance


Pat Macguire


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 25/02/04

> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against
> frost-free machines?

Buy one with 2 compressors, or at least a single compressor twin thermostat
model. Frost free is a real convenience, but ask to hear the machine in
operation. Some (but not all) designs are horrendously noisy.

Christian.

We've gone for frost-free this time, defrosting was just too much hassle.
We'd had an AEG before and frankly it was not as good as we had expected. My
wife had a clear idea on what she did and did not want from her new f/f and
we looked at em all, over and over! Our initial pref was to go for a Bosch
or Siemens (not exactly top of the market but all we could afford) and they
did not impress. The plastic drawers etc are no better quality, far too thin
and brittle, we do not want wire, the B and S bottle rack was plastic, short
and only held two bottles.
So power consumption etc all being equal do not bother with them.
By the way, trawl the web, we saved nearly £100 buying at the Co-op online
of all places!


> Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
> suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
replacing
> it.
>
> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
> machines?
>
> Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the up-market
> makes are worth the difference?
>
>
> Regards and thanks in advance
>
>
> Pat Macguire
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.595 / Virus Database: 378 - Release Date: 25/02/04
>
>

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:59:04 -0000, "P and H Macguire"
> wrote:

>Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
>suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're replacing
>it.
>
>My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
>machines?
>
>Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the up-market
>makes are worth the difference?

I have a Liebherr frost free one. Better than Bosch and Siemens and
definitely worth the extra.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:59:04 -0000, "P and H Macguire"
> wrote:

>Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
>suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're replacing
>it.
>
>My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
>machines?
>
>Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the up-market
>makes are worth the difference?

They are no better than the likes of Beko. Save yourself some money.

sPoNiX

"sPoNiX" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 10:59:04 -0000, "P and H Macguire"
> > wrote:
>
> >Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and
also I
> >suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
replacing
> >it.
> >
> >My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against
frost-free
> >machines?
> >
> >Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the
up-market
> >makes are worth the difference?
>
> They are no better than the likes of Beko. Save yourself some money.
>
> sPoNiX

The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.

Neil

"Rob S" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:54:09 -0000, "Neil Jones"
>
> wrote:
>
> -> They are no better than the likes of Beko. Save yourself some
money.
> ->
> -> sPoNiX
> -
> -The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.
>
> Should have got a Mandela one.
>
> -Rob
> robatwork at mail dot com

Que?

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:54:09 -0000, "Neil Jones" >
wrote:

-> They are no better than the likes of Beko. Save yourself some money.
->
-> sPoNiX
-
-The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.

Should have got a Mandela one.

-Rob
robatwork at mail dot com

>>> The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.
>>
>> Should have got a Mandela one.
>
> Que?

Beko and Mandela were in the resistance against apartheid. Beko's doors fell
off at an early stage whilst being subject to rather unhinged behaviour
whilst in police custody.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" > wrote in message
. net...
> > My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against
> > frost-free machines?
>
> Buy one with 2 compressors, or at least a single compressor twin
thermostat
> model. Frost free is a real convenience, but ask to hear the machine in
> operation. Some (but not all) designs are horrendously noisy.
>
> Christian.
>
>
>

My fridge is a frost-free Amana (freezer on top) and I hardly ever notice it
running. The only noise I hear is occasionally from the ice-maker.
Although, my freezer is too crammed with stuff for the icemaker to function
properly at the moment. The 12 yo Whirlpool it replaced, made enough noise
that you could hear it ALL over the house! LOL! So, I think anything is
quieter than the fridge that was wearing out!

Dawn

"Christian McArdle" > wrote in message
. net...
> >>> The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.
> >>
> >> Should have got a Mandela one.
> >
> > Que?
>
> Beko and Mandela were in the resistance against apartheid. Beko's
doors fell
> off at an early stage whilst being subject to rather unhinged
behaviour
> whilst in police custody.
>
> Christian.
>
Thanks - it's now obvious to all that I dropped history at the end of
the third form.

Regards

Neil

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:50:16 -0000, "Neil Jones"
> wrote:

>
>"Rob S" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:54:09 -0000, "Neil Jones"
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> -> They are no better than the likes of Beko. Save yourself some
>money.
>> ->
>> -> sPoNiX
>> -
>> -The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.
>>
>> Should have got a Mandela one.
>>
>> -Rob
>> robatwork at mail dot com
>
>Que?
>
As in Steve Biko.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 14:50:16 -0000, "Neil Jones"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Rob S" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:54:09 -0000, "Neil Jones"
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> -> They are no better than the likes of Beko. Save yourself some
> >money.
> >> ->
> >> -> sPoNiX
> >> -
> >> -The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.
> >>
> >> Should have got a Mandela one.
> >>
> >> -Rob
> >> robatwork at mail dot com
> >
> >Que?
> >
> As in Steve Biko.
>
>
I'm sorry to say that I had never heard of him until today :-(

Neil

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

> I have a Liebherr frost free one.

How does "frost free" work then?

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" > wrote in message
...
> "Andy Hall" wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I have a Liebherr frost free one.
>
> How does "frost free" work then?
>
> --
> Andy

I believe the freezer coils are outside of the food compartment, and thus a
fan is used to blow air over the cold coils and into the freezer. The
fan/pump is halted periodically at which point a heater is used to evaporate
any frozen water vapour from the coils.

Mathew

P and H Macguire ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

> Also, as we're looking at Bosch or Siemens, do people think the
> up-market makes are worth the difference?

I can't say about Siemens, but when we bought a Bosch fridge/freezer a few
years back, there was only a small difference in price between it and the
equivalent Hotpoint.

The difference in perceived quality was immense.

Neither our or my in-law's Bosch fridge-freezers have given a moment's
trouble, nor have either of the Bosch washing machines - all are between 5
and 10 years old now.

Rob S ) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying :

> -The door fell off my Beko fridge after a couple of years.

> Should have got a Mandela one.

<nice....>

Neil Jones ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

>> Beko and Mandela were in the resistance against apartheid. Beko's
>> doors fell off at an early stage whilst being subject to rather unhinged
>> behaviour whilst in police custody.

> Thanks - it's now obvious to all that I

have been living in a cave devoid of all access to current affairs for the
last three decades.

Neil Jones ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying :

>> As in Steve Biko.

> I'm sorry to say that I had never heard of him until today :-(

You ever heard of Peter Gabriel?

"Adrian" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> Neil Jones ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying :
>
> >> As in Steve Biko.
>
> > I'm sorry to say that I had never heard of him until today :-(
>
> You ever heard of Peter Gabriel?

as in 'I see the Mona Lisa, she gives me the wink then...'

I too prefer frost-free. Unfortunately one of the side effects is that your
ice cubes disappear also.

Barbara


"Mathew J. Newton" > wrote in message
...
> "Andy Wade" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Andy Hall" wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > I have a Liebherr frost free one.
> >
> > How does "frost free" work then?
> >
> > --
> > Andy
>
> I believe the freezer coils are outside of the food compartment, and thus
a
> fan is used to blow air over the cold coils and into the freezer. The
> fan/pump is halted periodically at which point a heater is used to
evaporate
> any frozen water vapour from the coils.
>
> Mathew
>
>

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:14:08 -0000, >
wrote:

>I too prefer frost-free. Unfortunately one of the side effects is that your
>ice cubes disappear also.
>
>Barbara
>
Really?

Doesn't on mine....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Nick Finnigan ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

>> >> As in Steve Biko.

>> > I'm sorry to say that I had never heard of him until today :-(

>> You ever heard of Peter Gabriel?

> as in 'I see the Mona Lisa, she gives me the wink then...'

Yup, that Peter Gabriel.

Isn't it amazing how these threads can go round in circles?

"P and H Macguire" > wrote in message
...
> Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
> suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
replacing
> it.
>
> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
> machines?
>

Frost-free is more convenient but not as good for keeping food for more than
a couple of months. This is because the frost-removal cycle warms up the
freezer. The food does not thaw but the regular warming and cooling affects
quality.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:55:52 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> wrote:

>"P and H Macguire" > wrote in message
...
>> Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and also I
>> suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
>replacing
>> it.
>>
>> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
>> machines?
>>
>
>Frost-free is more convenient but not as good for keeping food for more than
>a couple of months. This is because the frost-removal cycle warms up the
>freezer. The food does not thaw but the regular warming and cooling affects
>quality.


That depends on the design of the appliance and how the frost removal
is controlled.

I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than a
degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not significant.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:55:52 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> > wrote:
>
> >"P and H Macguire" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust!
and also I
> >> suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
> >replacing
> >> it.
> >>
> >> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against
frost-free
> >> machines?
> >>
> >
> >Frost-free is more convenient but not as good for keeping food for
more than
> >a couple of months. This is because the frost-removal cycle warms
up the
> >freezer. The food does not thaw but the regular warming and cooling
affects
> >quality.
>
>
> That depends on the design of the appliance and how the frost
removal
> is controlled.
>
> I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than a
> degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not
significant.
>

Did you check it with a Max/Minimum thermometer over 24 hours? If you
did, you would get surprising results, but if you actually measure the
temperature of the food, instead of the air surrounding it, then it
would probably not be as bad as it seems.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:10:08 -0000, "Notty Pine" >
wrote:

>
>"Andy Hall" > wrote in message

>>
>> That depends on the design of the appliance and how the frost
>removal
>> is controlled.
>>
>> I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than a
>> degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not
>significant.
>>
>
>Did you check it with a Max/Minimum thermometer over 24 hours? If you
>did, you would get surprising results, but if you actually measure the
>temperature of the food, instead of the air surrounding it, then it
>would probably not be as bad as it seems.
>
I did both. The <1 degree was in air temperature in the centre of the
cabinet with drawers reasonably full but not crammed


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:10:08 -0000, "Notty Pine" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
>
> >>
> >> I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than
a
> >> degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not
> >significant.
> >>
> >
> >Did you check it with a Max/Minimum thermometer over 24 hours? If
you
> >did, you would get surprising results, but if you actually measure
the
> >temperature of the food, instead of the air surrounding it, then it
> >would probably not be as bad as it seems.
> >
> I did both. The <1 degree was in air temperature in the centre of
the
> cabinet with drawers reasonably full but not crammed
>

Well something is seriously wrong with your testing, or your
equipment, because most thermostats have about a 5 degree C difference
between on and off, making a less than 1 degree difference impossible
to achieve.

"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:55:52 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> > wrote:
>
> >"P and H Macguire" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and
also I
> >> suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
> >replacing
> >> it.
> >>
> >> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
> >> machines?
> >>
> >
> >Frost-free is more convenient but not as good for keeping food for more
than
> >a couple of months. This is because the frost-removal cycle warms up the
> >freezer. The food does not thaw but the regular warming and cooling
affects
> >quality.
>
>
> That depends on the design of the appliance and how the frost removal
> is controlled.
>
> I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than a
> degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not significant.
>

Then you measured the temperature wrong. Please explain how going from -20
to -19 can remove frost. And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at
about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

>>Did you check it with a Max/Minimum thermometer over 24 hours? If you
>>did, you would get surprising results, but if you actually measure the
>>temperature of the food, instead of the air surrounding it, then it
>>would probably not be as bad as it seems.
>>
>
> I did both. The <1 degree was in air temperature in the centre of the
> cabinet with drawers reasonably full but not crammed

I would think you need to measure at the edge of the freezer, not the
center. It only warms up the perimeter.....

In article >,
> writes:
> I too prefer frost-free. Unfortunately one of the side effects is that your
> ice cubes disappear also.

A freeze dried ice cube -- now there's a concept.
I'll keep it handy with the chocolate teapot and the rocking horse shit ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

> wrote in message
...
> I too prefer frost-free. Unfortunately one of the side effects is that
your
> ice cubes disappear also.
>
> Barbara
>
>
> "Mathew J. Newton" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Andy Wade" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Andy Hall" wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > I have a Liebherr frost free one.
> > >
> > > How does "frost free" work then?
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andy
> >
> > I believe the freezer coils are outside of the food compartment, and
thus
> a
> > fan is used to blow air over the cold coils and into the freezer. The
> > fan/pump is halted periodically at which point a heater is used to
> evaporate
> > any frozen water vapour from the coils.
> >
> > Mathew
> >
> >
>
>

delurking a bit...

Is that why they sometimes seem to be somewhat small? Kind of like
partially melted? Well SOB! Now I can sleep tonight! I thought I was
losing my mind for a while.

I thought the kids weren't making sure it was closed properly.

Thanks for the tip. I'll stop yelling at the family now.

Bret




-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:04:17 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> wrote:


>
>. And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at
>about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

???
Mine is operating at -18
The fridge at 4.
Both Celsius.



---
"Only Irish coffee provides in a single glass all four essential food groups:
Alcohol, Caffeine, Sugar & Fat"

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:49:54 -0000, "Notty Pine" >
wrote:

>
>"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 23:10:08 -0000, "Notty Pine" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
>>
>> >>
>> >> I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than
>a
>> >> degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not
>> >significant.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Did you check it with a Max/Minimum thermometer over 24 hours? If
>you
>> >did, you would get surprising results, but if you actually measure
>the
>> >temperature of the food, instead of the air surrounding it, then it
>> >would probably not be as bad as it seems.
>> >
>> I did both. The <1 degree was in air temperature in the centre of
>the
>> cabinet with drawers reasonably full but not crammed
>>
>
>Well something is seriously wrong with your testing, or your
>equipment, because most thermostats have about a 5 degree C difference
>between on and off, making a less than 1 degree difference impossible
>to achieve.
>

No it isn't. I know perfectly well how to do a temperature test,
thanks.

This particular freezer has microprocessor based control and
insulation to meet the highest energy saving rating.

The hysteresis of the thermostat is a great deal less than 5 degrees
as it reasonably can be given the design and class of insultation.

If you have an old freezer with a mechanical thermostat, you may wish
to consider updating it to a more modern product.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 00:04:17 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> wrote:

>"Andy Hall" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 21:55:52 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >"P and H Macguire" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Our 22 year-old Electrolux fridge/freezer is beginning to rust! and
>also I
>> >> suspect it's costing a lot more to run than modern ones, so we're
>> >replacing
>> >> it.
>> >>
>> >> My question is, does anyone have strong views for or against frost-free
>> >> machines?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Frost-free is more convenient but not as good for keeping food for more
>than
>> >a couple of months. This is because the frost-removal cycle warms up the
>> >freezer. The food does not thaw but the regular warming and cooling
>affects
>> >quality.
>>
>>
>> That depends on the design of the appliance and how the frost removal
>> is controlled.
>>
>> I measured the temperature in mine, and it increases by less than a
>> degree. Since it is operated at about -20 this is not significant.
>>
>
>Then you measured the temperature wrong.

No I didn't. You didn't read what I said. I know how to conduct
temperature measurements, thank you.


>Please explain how going from -20
>to -19 can remove frost.

The temperature readings were made in the centre part of the cabinet,
and I also measured near the top and bottom.

The evaporator of the freezer is in a compartment separated from the
rest of the freezer and air is circulated between it and the food
storage area with a fan. For the frost- free cycle, the fan is
turned off and the evaporator is heated for a short period. This
does not result in a significant rise in temperature in the rest of
the cabinet because insulation separates the area of the evaporator
from the rest of the cabinet and it is at the top anyway..

At the end of the cycle, the compressor runs to chill the evaporator
before the fan is started again so that warm air is not circulated.

The particular freezer has microprocessor control of the whole
operation and is highly insulated, so is able to maintain very tight
temperature control.

>And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at
>about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

Rubbish. The freezer compartment in the top of a fridge (if it has
one) may run at around zero degrees. In a freezer, the normal
operating temperature is in the -18 to -23 range.

No I don't mean degrees Fahrenheit, I always use Celsius.





..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Adrian" > wrote in message
. 1.4...
> Neil Jones ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like
> they were saying :
>
> >> Beko and Mandela were in the resistance against apartheid. Beko's
> >> doors fell off at an early stage whilst being subject to rather
unhinged
> >> behaviour whilst in police custody.
>
> > Thanks - it's now obvious to all that I
>
> have been living in a cave devoid of all access to current affairs for
the
> last three decades.

Having looked it up on the internet, Steve Biko died when I was 5 year
old.

Obviously I know who Nelson Mandela is, but I didn't understand a link
between Mandela and Beko.

But, it's quite a nice cave, after all this time.

Regards

Neil

In article > ,
Peter Aitken > wrote:
>
>Then you measured the temperature wrong. Please explain how going from -20
>to -19 can remove frost.

It doesn't - the frost is outside the freezer compartment cooling the air
that is blown into the freezer isn't it??

Just because the cooling unit is warmed up to remove the frost doesn't mean
that the main compartment containing the food is.

> And, IIRC, freezers are designed to operate at about 0 degrees, not -20
> ( I assume you mean f).

Eh?

Darren

> Then you measured the temperature wrong. Please explain how going
> from -20 to -19 can remove frost. And, IIRC, freezers are designed to
> operate at about 0 degrees, not -20 ( I assume you mean f).

No. Freezers should be nominally at around -18C. We don't use Fahrenheit in
this country, unless you listen to Radio 2.

The frost free doesn't heat the food compartment to above freezing. That can
stay at -18C. It just runs hot through the evaporator to remove water. Some
older designs didn't have the fan/separate evaporator, so did warm the food
compartment significantly during the defrost cycle. My parents had one like
this about 20 years ago.

Christian.

> Rubbish. The freezer compartment in the top of a fridge (if it has
> one) may run at around zero degrees. In a freezer, the normal
> operating temperature is in the -18 to -23 range.
>

My freezer operates at -5 to -10 range. I think it's on the way out. I put
a chicken in there about a month ago, took it out last weekend, defrosted
it, started cooking it and immediately it began to warm up I could smell
rotton meat! Not nice. Thinking it may need just to be regassing, however,
the thing is only 4 years old (Hotpoint). Is it worth it or should I
consider buying a new one. How much is it to regas a fridge/freezer. The
fridge part seems fine, although that also struggled last year in the very
hot weather. The f/f did get moved around quite a bit last year when we did
the kitchen out.

> No. Freezers should be nominally at around -18C. We don't use
> Fahrenheit in this country, unless you listen to Radio 2.

Whoops, sorry just noticed the non-UK crosspost. Obviously US subscriber to
rec.food.equipment can use Fahrenheit all they like (and can even listen to
Radio 2 if so inclined).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio2.shtml?listen

Christian.