On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
> wrote:

>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>
>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't do
>> it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>
>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?

And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion, ya
jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's hungry.
You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.

Jade

On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard Daedalus
cry out in ...

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
> > wrote:
>
>>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>>
>>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't do
>>> it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>>
>>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?
>
> And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion, ya
> jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's hungry.
> You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.
>
> Jade
>
>

Do trolls like carrots?

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

"Daedalus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
> > wrote:
>
>>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>>
>>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't do
>>> it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>>
>>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?
>
> And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion, ya
> jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's hungry.
> You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.
>
> Jade
>

I just wanted to say that "Daedalus" is an excellent troll name. Just
excellent.

On 23 Oct 2006 16:20:11 GMT, ThePsyko >
wrote:

>On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard Daedalus
>cry out in ...
>
>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>>>
>>>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't do
>>>> it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>>>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>>>
>>>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?
>>
>> And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion, ya
>> jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's hungry.
>> You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.
>>
>> Jade
>>
>>
>
>Do trolls like carrots?

I thik they like to put them on sticks.

Jade

On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
Daedalus cry out in ...

> On 23 Oct 2006 16:20:11 GMT, ThePsyko >
> wrote:
>
>>On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
>>Daedalus cry out in ...
>>
>>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>>>>
>>>>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't
>>>>> do it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>>>>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>>>>
>>>>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?
>>>
>>> And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion,
>>> ya jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's
>>> hungry. You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.
>>>
>>> Jade
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Do trolls like carrots?
>
> I thik they like to put them on sticks.
>
> Jade
>

I can think of worse places to put them.

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On 23 Oct 2006 19:03:58 GMT, ThePsyko >
wrote:

>On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
>Daedalus cry out in ...
>
>> On 23 Oct 2006 16:20:11 GMT, ThePsyko >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
>>>Daedalus cry out in ...
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>>>>>
>>>>>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't
>>>>>> do it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>>>>>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>>>>>
>>>>>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?
>>>>
>>>> And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion,
>>>> ya jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's
>>>> hungry. You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.
>>>>
>>>> Jade
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Do trolls like carrots?
>>
>> I thik they like to put them on sticks.
>>
>> Jade
>>
>
>I can think of worse places to put them.

I've seen those jpegs. *shudder*

Some vegans just go way too far.

Jade

On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
Daedalus cry out in ...

> On 23 Oct 2006 19:03:58 GMT, ThePsyko >
> wrote:
>
>>On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
>>Daedalus cry out in ...
>>
>>> On 23 Oct 2006 16:20:11 GMT, ThePsyko >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 23 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
>>>>Daedalus cry out in
m...
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 01:59:39 +0000 (UTC), UTB Treasurer
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>"jmcquown" > wrote in
:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And so you cross-post this drivel to newsgroups where they don't
>>>>>>> do it? You are only encouraging them if you make them seem more
>>>>>>> important than they are. Please don't feed the trolls!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What is your problem with relevant cross-posting?
>>>>>
>>>>> And what is the problem with feeding trolls? Have some compassion,
>>>>> ya jackass! There is plenty of food to feed all of the world's
>>>>> hungry. You're in a cooking group, for christ's sake.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jade
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Do trolls like carrots?
>>>
>>> I thik they like to put them on sticks.
>>>
>>> Jade
>>>
>>
>>I can think of worse places to put them.
>
> I've seen those jpegs. *shudder*
>
> Some vegans just go way too far.
>
> Jade
>

vegan trolls? Finally some safe bridges to cross!

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On 23 Oct 2006 20:11:38 +0200, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Daedalus" > wrote in message
>>
>> Jade
>>
>
>I just wanted to say that "Daedalus" is an excellent troll name. Just
>excellent.
>
You are educmacated! I googled Daedalus after your comment. Wiki
jogged a few long dead brain cells into action. Oh, yes.... *now* I
remember.

--
See return address to reply by email

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:09:03 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:

>Some vegans just go way too far.

· Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
What they try to avoid are products which provide life
(and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
in order to be successful:

Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings

The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
being vegan.
From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·

On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry out
in ...

> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:09:03 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:
>
>>Some vegans just go way too far.
>
> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
> in order to be successful:
>
> Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
> Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
> Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
> Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
> Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
> Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
> Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings
>
> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
> being vegan.
> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>

ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko >
wrote:

>On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry out
>in ...
>
>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:09:03 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:
>>
>>>Some vegans just go way too far.
>>
>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>> in order to be successful:
>>
>> Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
>> Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
>> Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
>> Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
>> Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
>> Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
>> Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings
>>
>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>> being vegan.
>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>>
>
>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!

ALL HAIL STONED COWS!!!!

Jade

On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
Daedalus cry out in ...

> On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko >
> wrote:
>
>>On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry
>>out in ...
>>
>>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:09:03 -0400, Daedalus >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Some vegans just go way too far.
>>>
>>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>>> in order to be successful:
>>>
>>> Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
>>> Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
>>> Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
>>> Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
>>> Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
>>> Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
>>> Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings
>>>
>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>>> being vegan.
>>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>>> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>>> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>>> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>>>
>>
>>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!
>
> ALL HAIL STONED COWS!!!!
>
> Jade
>
>

If a stoned cow fell over and nobody was around to hear it, would it
still produce milk?

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

[bunch o crap]


Looks like a couple of new newsgroup for the filters.




Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

On 24 Oct 2006 17:48:11 GMT, ThePsyko >
wrote:

>On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard
>Daedalus cry out in ...
>
>> On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry
>>>out in ...
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:09:03 -0400, Daedalus >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Some vegans just go way too far.
>>>>
>>>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>>>> in order to be successful:
>>>>
>>>> Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
>>>> Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
>>>> Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
>>>> Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
>>>> Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
>>>> Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
>>>> Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings
>>>>
>>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>>>> being vegan.
>>>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>>>> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>>>> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>>>> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>>>>
>>>
>>>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!
>>
>> ALL HAIL STONED COWS!!!!
>>
>> Jade
>>
>>
>
>If a stoned cow fell over and nobody was around to hear it, would it
>still produce milk?

I betcha it makes chocolate milk.

Jade

On 24 Oct 2006 18:24:47 GMT, "Default User" >
wrote:

>
>[bunch o crap]
>
>
>Looks like a couple of new newsgroup for the filters.
>
>Brian

Thanks, Buh-rian. All of us were just dying to know what ever the hell
it was you were doing with your filters.

Vegan-dork.

Jade

On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard Daedalus
cry out in ...

> On 24 Oct 2006 18:24:47 GMT, "Default User" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>[bunch o crap]
>>
>>
>>Looks like a couple of new newsgroup for the filters.
>>
>>Brian
>
> Thanks, Buh-rian. All of us were just dying to know what ever the hell
> it was you were doing with your filters.
>
> Vegan-dork.
>
> Jade
>

He is OBVIOUSLY important enough to himself to believe everybody cares
what he's up to.

Whatever would I do if I didn't know I was in his killfile? Oh the
HORROR~!

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:32:55 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:

>On 24 Oct 2006 18:24:47 GMT, "Default User" >
>wrote:
>
>>
>>[bunch o crap]
>>
>>
>>Looks like a couple of new newsgroup for the filters.
>>
>>Brian
>
>Thanks, Buh-rian. All of us were just dying to know what ever the hell
>it was you were doing with your filters.
>
>Vegan-dork.
>
>Jade

If he's a vegan, he must be a dork.

On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 13:37:46 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:

>On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko >
>wrote:
>
>>On 24 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry out
>>in ...
>>
>>> On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 15:09:03 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:
>>>
>>>>Some vegans just go way too far.
>>>
>>> · Vegans contribute to the deaths of animals by their use of
>>> wood and paper products, electricity, roads and all types of
>>> buildings, their own diet, etc... just as everyone else does.
>>> What they try to avoid are products which provide life
>>> (and death) for farm animals, but even then they would have
>>> to avoid the following items containing animal by-products
>>> in order to be successful:
>>>
>>> Tires, Paper, Upholstery, Floor waxes, Glass, Water
>>> Filters, Rubber, Fertilizer, Antifreeze, Ceramics, Insecticides,
>>> Insulation, Linoleum, Plastic, Textiles, Blood factors, Collagen,
>>> Heparin, Insulin, Solvents, Biodegradable Detergents, Herbicides,
>>> Gelatin Capsules, Adhesive Tape, Laminated Wood Products,
>>> Plywood, Paneling, Wallpaper and Wallpaper Paste, Cellophane
>>> Wrap and Tape, Abrasives, Steel Ball Bearings
>>>
>>> The meat industry provides life for the animals that it
>>> slaughters, and the animals live and die as a result of it
>>> as animals do in other habitats. They also depend on it for
>>> their lives as animals do in other habitats. If people consume
>>> animal products from animals they think are raised in decent
>>> ways, they will be promoting life for more such animals in the
>>> future. People who want to contribute to decent lives for
>>> livestock with their lifestyle must do it by being conscientious
>>> consumers of animal products, because they can not do it by
>>> being vegan.
>>> From the life and death of a thousand pound grass raised
>>> steer and whatever he happens to kill during his life, people
>>> get over 500 pounds of human consumable meat...that's well
>>> over 500 servings of meat. From a grass raised dairy cow people
>>> get thousands of dairy servings. Due to the influence of farm
>>> machinery, and *icides, and in the case of rice the flooding and
>>> draining of fields, one serving of soy or rice based product is
>>> likely to involve more animal deaths than hundreds of servings
>>> derived from grass raised animals. Grass raised animal products
>>> contribute to fewer wildlife deaths, better wildlife habitat, and
>>> better lives for livestock than soy or rice products. ·
>>>
>>
>>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!
>
>ALL HAIL STONED COWS!!!!
>
>Jade

Yes...or at least a happy howdy...

On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko > wrote:

>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!

Good point. Here's one reason why:
______________________________________________
The Least Harm Principle Suggests that Humans Should
Eat Beef, Lamb, Dairy, not a Vegan Diet.

S.L. Davis, Department of Animal Sciences, Oregon State
University, Corvallis, OR 97331.

Published in the Proceedings of the Third Congress of the
European Society for Agricultural and Food Ethics, 2001,
pp 440-450.

Key words: veganism, least harm, farm animals, field animals.

Introduction
Although the debate over the moral status of animals has been
going on for thousands of years (Shapiro, 2000), there has
been a resurgence of interest in this issue in the last quarter of
the 20th century. One of the landmark philosophical works of
this period was the book by Regan (1983) called "A Case for
Animal Rights." In that book, Regan concludes that animals
do have moral standing, that they are subjects-of-a-life with
interests that deserve equal consideration to the same interests
in humans, and therefore have the right to live their lives
without human interference. As a consequence, he concludes
that humans have a moral obligation to consume a vegan (use
no animal products) diet and eliminate animal agriculture.
However, production of an all vegan diet also comes at the
cost of the lives of many animals, including mice, moles,
gophers, pheasants, etc. Therefore, I asked Regan, "What
is the morally relevant difference between killing a field mouse
(or other animal of the field) so that humans may eat and killing
a pig (or chicken, calf or lamb) for the same purpose? Animals
must die so that humans may eat, regardless whether they eat
a vegan diet or not. So, how are we to choose our food supply
in a morally responsible manner?" Regan's response could be
summarized by what may be called the "Least Harm Principle"
or LHP (Regan, Personal Communication). According to LHP,
we must choose the food products that, overall, cause the
least harm to the least number of animals. The following
analysis is an attempt to try to determine what humans should
eat if we apply that principle.

Regan's Vegan Conclusion is Problematic

I find Regan's response to my question to be problematic for
two reasons. The first reason is because it seems to be a
philosophical slight of hand for one to turn to a utilitarian
defense (LHP) of a challenge to his vegan conclusion which
is based on animal rights theory. If the question, "What is
the morally relevant difference?" can't be supported by the
animal rights theory, then it seems to me that the animal rights
theory must be rejected. Instead, Regan turns to utilitarian
theory (which examines consequences of one's actions) to
defend the vegan conclusion.

The second problem I see with his vegan conclusion is that
he claims that the least harm would be done to animals if
animal agriculture was eliminated. It may certainly be true
that fewer animals may be killed if animal agriculture was
eliminated, but could the LHP also lead to other alternative
conclusions?

Would pasture-based animal agriculture cause least harm?

Animals of the field are killed by several factors, including:

1. Tractors and farm implements run over them.
2. Plows and cultivators destroy underground burrows
and kill animals.
3. Removal of the crops (harvest) removes ground
cover allowing animals on the surface to be killed
by predators.
4. Application of pesticides.

So, every time the tractor goes through the field to plow,
disc, cultivate, apply fertilizer and/or pesticide, harvest,
etc., animals are killed. And, intensive agriculture such
as corn and soybeans (products central to a vegan diet)
kills far more animals of the field than would extensive
agriculture like forage production, particularly if the forage
was harvested by ruminant animals instead of machines.
So perhaps fewer animals would be killed by producing
beef, lamb, and dairy products for humans to eat instead
of the vegan diet envisioned by Regan.

Accurate numbers of mortality aren't available, but Tew
and Macdonald (1993) reported that wood mouse
population density in cereal fields dropped from 25/ha
preharvest to less than 5/ha postharvest. This decrease
was attributed to migration out of the field and to mortality.
Therefore, it may be reasonable to estimate mortality of
10 animals/ha in conventional corn and soybean
production.

There are 120 million ha of harvested cropland in the US
(USDA, 2000). If all of that land was used to produce a
plant-based diet, and if 10 animals of the field are killed
per ha per year, then 10 x 120 million = 1200 million or
1.2 billion would be killed to produce a vegan diet. If half
of that land (60 million) was converted to forage
production and if forage production systems decreased
the number of animals of the field killed per year by 50%
(5 per year per ha), the number of animals killed would be:

1. 60 million ha of traditional agriculture x 10 animals
per ha = 0.6 billion animals killed.
2. 60 million ha of forage production x 5 animals of
the field = 0.3 billion.

Therefore, in this hypothetical example, the change to
include some forage-based animal agriculture would
result in the loss of only 0.9 billion animals of the field
instead of 1.2 billion to support a vegan diet. As a
result, the LHP would suggest that we are morally
obligated to consume a diet of ruminant products, not
a vegan diet, because it would result in the death of
fewer animals of the field.

But what of the ruminant animals that would need to
die to feed people? According to the USDA numbers
quoted by Francione (2000), of the 8.4 billion animals
killed each year for food in the US, 8 billion of those
are poultry and only 41 million are ruminants (cows,
calves, sheep, lambs). Even if the numbers of
ruminants killed for food each year doubled to replace
the 8 billion poultry, the total number of animals that
would need to be killed under this alternative would
still be fewer (0.9 billion + 82 million = 0.982 billion)
than in the vegan alternative (1.2 billion).

In conclusion, applying the Least Harm Principle as
proposed by Regan would actually argue that we
are morally obligated to move to a ruminant-based
diet rather than a vegan diet.

References

Davis, S.L. 2000. What is the Morally Relevant
Difference between the Mouse and the Pig?
Pp. 107-109 in the Proceedings of EurSafe 2000;
2nd Congress of the European Society for
Agricultural and Food Ethics.

Francione, Gary L. 2000. Introduction to Animal
Rights: Your child or the dog? Temple University
Press. Philadelphia.

Regan, Tom. 1983. A Case for Animal Rights.
University of California Press, Berkeley.

Shapiro, L.S. 2000. Applied Animal Ethics,
pp. 34-37. Delmar Press.

Tew, T.E. and D.W. Macdonald. 1993. The
effects of harvest on arable wood mice.
Biological Conservation 65:279-283.

USDA. 2000.
www.nass.usda.gov/Census/Census97/highlights.

On 25 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry out
in ...

> On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko > wrote:
>
>>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!
>
> Good point. Here's one reason why:
> ______________________________________________

I think we should all eat plastic..

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On 25 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.food.vegan and heard cry
out in ...

> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:32:55 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:
>
>>On 24 Oct 2006 18:24:47 GMT, "Default User" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>[bunch o crap]
>>>
>>>
>>>Looks like a couple of new newsgroup for the filters.
>>>
>>>Brian
>>
>>Thanks, Buh-rian. All of us were just dying to know what ever the hell
>>it was you were doing with your filters.
>>
>>Vegan-dork.
>>
>>Jade
>
> If he's a vegan, he must be a dork.
>

Are there smart vegans?

A man is driving along a highway and sees a rabbit jump out across the
middle of the road. He swerves to avoid hitting it, but unfortunately the
rabbit jumps right in front of the car.The driver, a sensitive man as
well as an animal lover, pulls over and gets out to see what has become
of the rabbit. Much to his dismay, the rabbit is dead.
The driver feels so awful that he begins to cry. Another car arrives on
the scene, and the driver sees the man crying on the side of the road and
pulls over. She steps out of the car and asks man what's wrong.
"I feel terrible," he explains, "I accidentally hit this rabbit and
killed it."
The newcomer says, "Don't worry." She runs to her car and pulls out a
spray can. She walks over to the limp, dead rabbit, bends down, and
sprays the contents onto the rabbit.
The rabbit jumps up, waves its paw at the two of them and hops off down
the road. Ten feet away the rabbit stops, turns around and waves again,
he hops down the road another 10 feet, turns and waves, hops another ten
feet,turns and waves, and repeats this again and again and again, until
he hops out of sight.
The man is astonished. He runs over to the woman and demands, "What is in
that can? What did you spray on that rabbit?"
The woman turns the can around so that the man can read the label. It
says....
"Hair restorer.......adds permanent wave."

--
ThePsyko
Public Enemy #7

On 25 Oct 2006 22:14:11 GMT, ThePsyko > wrote:

>On 25 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.food.vegan and heard cry
>out in ...
>
>> On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 14:32:55 -0400, Daedalus > wrote:
>>
>>>On 24 Oct 2006 18:24:47 GMT, "Default User" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>[bunch o crap]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Looks like a couple of new newsgroup for the filters.
>>>>
>>>>Brian
>>>
>>>Thanks, Buh-rian. All of us were just dying to know what ever the hell
>>>it was you were doing with your filters.
>>>
>>>Vegan-dork.
>>>
>>>Jade
>>
>> If he's a vegan, he must be a dork.
>>
>
>Are there smart vegans?

Probably not living in areas where meat is available.

>A man is driving along a highway and sees a rabbit jump out across the
>middle of the road. He swerves to avoid hitting it, but unfortunately the
>rabbit jumps right in front of the car.The driver, a sensitive man as
>well as an animal lover, pulls over and gets out to see what has become
>of the rabbit. Much to his dismay, the rabbit is dead.
>The driver feels so awful that he begins to cry. Another car arrives on
>the scene, and the driver sees the man crying on the side of the road and
>pulls over. She steps out of the car and asks man what's wrong.
>"I feel terrible," he explains, "I accidentally hit this rabbit and
>killed it."
>The newcomer says, "Don't worry." She runs to her car and pulls out a
>spray can. She walks over to the limp, dead rabbit, bends down, and
>sprays the contents onto the rabbit.
>The rabbit jumps up, waves its paw at the two of them and hops off down
>the road. Ten feet away the rabbit stops, turns around and waves again,
>he hops down the road another 10 feet, turns and waves, hops another ten
>feet,turns and waves, and repeats this again and again and again, until
>he hops out of sight.
>The man is astonished. He runs over to the woman and demands, "What is in
>that can? What did you spray on that rabbit?"
>The woman turns the can around so that the man can read the label. It
>says....
>"Hair restorer.......adds permanent wave."

That story is such a nice tail...too bad they don't make dog and
cat restorer as well.

ThePsyko > wrote in
t:

> On 25 Oct 2006 I stormed the castle called alt.fashion and heard cry
> out in ...
>
>> On 24 Oct 2006 16:34:26 GMT, ThePsyko >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>ALL HAIL TEH GRASS RAISED ANIMAL!!!!
>>
>> Good point. Here's one reason why:
>> ______________________________________________
>
> I think we should all eat plastic..
>
Margarine is close enough.


--
SneakyP
To reply: newsgroup only, what's posted in ng stays in ng.

Some choose to swim in the potty bowl of nan-ae rather than flush it
down :0)