A few random thoughts here.

First there is presentation. When you start deliberately mixing food
together on the table - haha how can you call it an 'art' with
those bibimbap or something, in a charred stone bowl or all that lo
mein on a sizzling plate? One of the hallmarks of haute cuisine is its
emphasis on preparation or presentation technique -not how you
reproduce your stomach contents for public view! In fact in haute
cuisine often different ingredients are cooked separately to the right
degree of 'ripeness' and then mixed together, hence the
extraordinary amount of time needed for preparation. Bento boxes -
and these are considered cheap Japanese - like 'rice boxes' -
nonetheless preserve or at least pretend to preserve this quality.
Koreans and the Chinese do not. Else you may as well go for an infant
diet or a pureed diet for old people. The fact that everyone digs into
a public plate in the case of Chinese - thus sometimes without a pair
of public utensil (i.e. chopstick) is yet another 'low class' sign
- it's probably a residual from an ancient powwow ceremony where
people just feast on a dead carcass after a long day's hunt. Very
very primitive (or authentic, depends on your perspective).

Décor of the restaurant is another issue and is peripheral to this
subject of presentation. Even a middle class Japanese restaurant (at
least in North America) is quiet - meaning you can hear what your
neighbors are saying, unlike Chinese or sometimes Korean - and at
times you feel like you've entered a monastery or Shinto temple
inadvertently where you start your life journey and engage in some epic
meditation session. "Authentic" Chinese restaurants - even the so
called more
expensive ones are like a flea markets or a public high school
cafeterias where you need to shove your way in and where you are
sometimes given a time limit on when you should finish your food, and
where you have to combat waiters from mixing residual food between
dishes together - just so they get a head start in dish cleaning, if
they do that at all....

The use of ingredients is important. Eggs or bean sprouts may be valid
ingredients but they are very cheap, and are definitely not suitable
for a main course dish at supper, and are certainly no showcase prizes.
No, in fact the use of these materials reflects a sign of historical
economic dearth when you think about it. It's not so common in North
America but I think in mainland China people are so poor they eat
tomatoes, scrambled eggs, and tofu as their main dinner dish day after
day, night after night! Whoa!!

I think 'high class' cuisine often seeks to preserve freshness and
the true, 'original' flavor of the food with a minimal amount of
seasoning. Chinese cuisine often resort to deep frying or stir frying,
and certain provincial Chinese (like Szechuan) use spices or MSG to
mask their flaws. Some Korean dishes encourage the use of hot sauce
(e.g. the bibimbap). Sort of like poor Indians using curry in
everything - thus you can really have a crappy piece of meat (if they
can afford it) but you still won't be able to tell what's in it.
It's like a woman who relies too heavily on makeup. That's why
ground beef is low grade but you'll never mince filet mignon. And why
many Chinese kitchens are so invisible - so secretive and furtive in
their preparation of food that they in fact don't even pass public
health standards!! One report I read demonstrated that it's cleaner
(measured in terms of a lack of bacterial count) to eat off the *floor*
of a university microbiology lab than a food tray at fast foods places
where teens spit on your onion rings (is that true, or is that just
Eminem lyrics) or at Chinese restaurants.

Another sign is quality vs quantity. Chinese buffets now abound in
North America - because they are cheap - and Chinese buffets love
to emphasize quantity at the expense of quality. They are geared
towards 300 lb trailer wives and inner city single moms and new
southeast Asian immigrants probably. Higher class restaurants
emphasize more on preparation and not on quantity, and the end product
is presented perhaps as a psychological mechanism - product being food
is so much smaller than the plate, and are 'vertically stacked' rather
than a 'horizontal mess'.

Also, practically, when was the last time at a quiet, sedate wine
'n' cheese inbred soirees or business meetings that they serve
Chinese food? Never! Never! Never! These just do not have the
same cachet at upper middle class or upper class/educated functions -
it's like wearing a tracksuit to a wedding. Japanese is however
increasingly served in these functions, and in fact I think it adds a
touch of cosmopolitanism to an otherwise dull mélange of French and
Italian.

And let's not forget also that at the lower middle class level, we
see Chinese and Koreans trying to operate Japanese restaurants, dishing
(pun huh?) out ersatz Japanese food. You just don't see things the
other way around.

Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.

So why is all this important? Food is like sex. Hunger is one of our
natural, human, cardinal urges. It may be a non-topic and neglected
when it's abundant, such as in North America, but since food is
required by everyone to survive, i.e. it drives natural selection,
cultural varations hold a key to understanding something deeper
perhaps. I think what we eat and how we do it - like sexual norms and
mores - reflect and reveal ourselves more than anything else. I've
listed a few suggestions here, as a brute, who visits, occasionally,
Burger King. But if I can see it, I'm sure others can also.

Yeah yeah I know, "de gustibus non est disputandum", i.e. taste is
not disputable. But in this mano a mano comparison between Japanese and
Chinese/Korean cuisine, I say the Japanese won hands down.

Postscript: two other objective data points.

1. Price. Unless they're Chinese or Korean owned, Japanese restaurants
in general charge a premium for their food and services. While the free
market is not always rational, it does indicate that there is a demand,
at least in North America. And I think that's true in the Far East as
well outside Japan - Japanese restaurants are never considered 'cheap
food' or 'lower class food'. Zagat survey indicates many more Japanese
that make it on top compared to Chinese, *in spite of* the latter's
popularity. It's almost like 150 girls and 50 boys competing for the
Math Olympiad, but the top 10 winners are all boys.

2. Yes you can get real sick from Chinese food. It's called the Chinese
Restaurant Syndrome. Heard of it? He
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001126.htm

"Chinese restaurant syndrome is a collection of symptoms that some
people experience after eating Chinese food. A food additive called
monosodium glutamate (MSG) has been implicated, but it has not been
proved to be the agent that causes this condition."

"Life-threatening symptoms may be similar to any other severe allergic
reaction and require immediate medical attention. These include the
following:

* Swelling of the throat
* Chest pain
* Heart palpitations
* Shortness of breath"

Seems that the above 2 points which have been blatantly neglected in my
first go-around carry more weight. Chinese food more often than not
just does not have the same cachet as Japanese.

Make no mistake: Chinese food is very much like porn: (1) best enjoyed
private and takeout, (2) good variety, (3) addictive to some, (4)
cheap, (5) often dirty, and (6) most outlets are found in sleazy
neighborhoods. That is, it's way way fun. It's just not always
mentioned in the same breath as your CEO's inbred wine 'n' cheese
soiree.

>From the looks of your 2752 posts it looks like you don't like chinese
and africans that much eh?

Seriously, check out this guy's post log at

http://groups.google.com/groups/prof...WXi1Vg &hl=en

He is a complete nutcase.

Ha! Interesting and "politically incorrect"!

> A few random thoughts here.

Yes, random is the word.

Jukka

Wow....

Yeah, it's thanksgiving so I'm not going to use the words that I
normally would to describe this post.

Your clock is set incorrectly, in more ways than one.

Dora

On 2006-11-22 23:39:36 -0800, "RichAsianKid" > said:

> A few random thoughts here.

Surely you can't get any more random.

> First there is presentation. When you start deliberately mixing food
> together on the table - haha how can you call it an 'art' with
> those bibimbap or something, in a charred stone bowl or all that lo
> mein on a sizzling plate?

I thought you were going to talk about presentation. "Bibimbap or
something" is not vastly unike many other dishes and can be presented
almost anyway one likes. Traditionally Korean food is presented
traditionally, a stone bowl certainly has an aesthetic value. A
sizzling plate potentially has much more presentational value that a
round white disk.

> One of the hallmarks of haute cuisine...

Not all food is or purportes to be haute cuisine. It is not good while
all else is bad. Most Japanese food is not Haute cuisine either.

> Décor of the restaurant is another issue and is peripheral to this
> subject of presentation. Even a middle class Japanese restaurant (at
> least in North America) is quiet - meaning you can hear what your
> neighbors are saying...

That's not true. Except the "peripheral" part. This is dull fallacy.
Japanese restaurants are quiet and Chinese and Koreans are loud?
Completely false. You should get out more. It would be easier to say
that Japanese are good and Chinese are bad and let it go at that. It
would have all the "random thought" value you could give it: none.

> ...and at times you feel like you've entered a monastery or Shinto
> temple inadvertently where you start your life journey and engage in
> some epic meditation...

Try to get a grip man. We're purportedly talking about food, remember?
What the hell restaurant/shrine are you talking about?

> "Authentic" Chinese restaurants - even the so called more expensive
> ones are like a flea markets or a public high school cafeterias...

Imagine how much more you might dislike them if you had actually visited one!

> The use of ingredients is important. Eggs or bean sprouts may be valid
> ingredients but they are very cheap...

I guess rice gruel loaded with gold leaf would be good then?

> It's not so common in North America but I think in mainland China
> people are so poor they eat tomatoes, scrambled eggs, and tofu as their
> main dinner dish day after day, night after night! Whoa!!

Whoa is right! I think you're thinking has some major gaps in it. It's
more like "crippled" I suppose.

> I think 'high class' cuisine often seeks to preserve freshness and the
> true, 'original' flavor of the food with a minimal amount of
> seasoning...

I guess we're going to dump Italian, French and Indian foods as "high
class", then? And also, do you really believe the entire world is
either eating "high class" food or crap? Are those really the only two
options?

> Another sign is quality vs quantity. Chinese buffets now abound in
> North America - because they are cheap - and Chinese buffets love to
> emphasize quantity at the expense of quality. They are geared towards
> 300 lb trailer wives and inner city single moms and new southeast Asian
> immigrants probably. Higher class restaurants emphasize more on
> preparation and not on quantity, and the end product is presented
> perhaps as a psychological mechanism - product being food is so much
> smaller than the plate, and are 'vertically stacked' rather than a
> 'horizontal mess'.

What you've said is that expensive restaurants focus on different
thinngs than inexpensive restaurants. That's pretty amazing logic.
It's true that Chinese-American families (and Vietnamese-American),
frequently dining in larger groups, have a different approach to cost
and dining style than sushi-bars. Is that some kind of major satori
for you? Do your mental "difficulties" always have you comparing
apples to oranges, or only on this topic?

I can't imagine the level of mental problems you must have to provide
such a large pile of faux logic to provide your anti-Chinese bias.

> Also, practically, when was the last time at a quiet, sedate wine 'n'
> cheese inbred soirees or business meetings that they serve Chinese
> food? Never! Never! Never!

Quite a number of times. And I've never had a wine 'n' chese inbred
soiree with Japanese food. So what does that mean? Only that Chinese
food is probably easier to cater than Japanese. Does that make
Japanese gooder?

> These just do not have the same cachet at upper middle class or upper
> class/educated functions - it's like wearing a tracksuit to a wedding.
> Japanese is however increasingly served in these functions, and in fact
> I think it adds a touch of cosmopolitanism to an otherwise dull mélange
> of French and Italian.

How much cache is there in the same bullshit rubber chicken and boiled
vegetables, because that's what I usually get for dinner in what of
these soirees. Does that make it good?

> Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.

And one of the higher rates of suicide. So I guess the omega-3 acids
must be the reason why. Your bullshit approach to science is almost as
bad as your bullshit approach to aesthetics.

> So why is all this important?

Because you have mental problems and this is your only opportunity to
foist them on others?

> Food is like sex.

Oh-oh. I think you need to get a bona fide counseler and work through
this topic with them.

> Yeah yeah I know, "de gustibus non est disputandum", i.e. taste is not
> disputable. But in this mano a mano comparison between Japanese and
> Chinese/Korean cuisine, I say the Japanese won hands down.

It would be better if you you used this "pene en mano" argument at the
beginning and decided to forego supporting information. Because you
haven't provided much of the later.

> Postscript: two other objective data points.

Really objective?

> 1. Price. Unless they're Chinese or Korean owned, Japanese restaurants
> in general charge a premium for their food and services.

And the supporting objective data? When you've said Japanese I assume
you mean, throughout, sushi restaurants. Japanese roll-and-bowl joints
don't charge a premium. And what does "charging a premium" say about
the food? Nothing. Why don't we throw Cartier in there, since you're
really not talking about food-related considerations.

> 2. Yes you can get real sick from Chinese food. It's called the Chinese
> Restaurant Syndrome.

You can get real sick from any food poorly prepared. Fugu has it's
liabilities, a few die from it each year. Salmonilla and e. coli are
known in all dining places that serve meat. I don't think msg poisoning
is an actual killer.

> A food additive called monosodium glutamate (MSG) has been implicated,
> but it has not been proved to be the agent that causes this condition."

If it has not proven to be the agent, why are you citing it?

> Make no mistake: Chinese food is very much like porn.

I'll assume you have enough background in the later to begin the
comparison, but I'm not sure you have enough "focus" on the former for
it to make any sense.


-- What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

> Seriously, check out this guy's post log at

> He is a complete nutcase.
________________________________________________


Complete nut case ?!! I read English , sounds like he gets a
message across very
diplomatically .
ad hominem !! Attack the man , rather than his
words !!
You are the Luddite here , go away ....

You have never experienced a formal chinese dinner of 10 - 30 courses.

Try that experience one time, then comment with some valid experience.
Chinese buffets are not 'real' chinese food at all...

On 2006-11-23 13:56:53 -0800, "werty" > said:

>
>> Seriously, check out this guy's post log at
>
>> He is a complete nutcase.
> ________________________________________________
>
>
> Complete nut case ?!! I read English , sounds like he gets a
> message across very
> diplomatically .

You must have a very strange use for the word "diplomatic".

> ad hominem !! Attack the man , rather than his
> words !!
> You are the Luddite here , go away ....

I attacked his words. After that I called him an idiot and racist.
Logical conclusions.
--
What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

RichAsianKid wrote:
> A few random thoughts here.
>
> First there is presentation. When you start deliberately mixing food
> together on the table - haha how can you call it an 'art' with
> those bibimbap or something, in a charred stone bowl or all that lo
> mein on a sizzling plate? One of the hallmarks of haute cuisine is its
> emphasis on preparation or presentation technique -not how you
> reproduce your stomach contents for public view! In fact in haute
> cuisine often different ingredients are cooked separately to the right
> degree of 'ripeness' and then mixed together, hence the
> extraordinary amount of time needed for preparation. Bento boxes -
> and these are considered cheap Japanese - like 'rice boxes' -
> nonetheless preserve or at least pretend to preserve this quality.
> Koreans and the Chinese do not. Else you may as well go for an infant
> diet or a pureed diet for old people. The fact that everyone digs into
> a public plate in the case of Chinese - thus sometimes without a pair
> of public utensil (i.e. chopstick) is yet another 'low class' sign
> - it's probably a residual from an ancient powwow ceremony where
> people just feast on a dead carcass after a long day's hunt. Very
> very primitive (or authentic, depends on your perspective).
>
> Décor of the restaurant is another issue and is peripheral to this
> subject of presentation. Even a middle class Japanese restaurant (at
> least in North America) is quiet - meaning you can hear what your
> neighbors are saying, unlike Chinese or sometimes Korean - and at
> times you feel like you've entered a monastery or Shinto temple
> inadvertently where you start your life journey and engage in some epic
> meditation session. "Authentic" Chinese restaurants - even the so
> called more
> expensive ones are like a flea markets or a public high school
> cafeterias where you need to shove your way in and where you are
> sometimes given a time limit on when you should finish your food, and
> where you have to combat waiters from mixing residual food between
> dishes together - just so they get a head start in dish cleaning, if
> they do that at all....
>
> The use of ingredients is important. Eggs or bean sprouts may be valid
> ingredients but they are very cheap, and are definitely not suitable
> for a main course dish at supper, and are certainly no showcase prizes.
> No, in fact the use of these materials reflects a sign of historical
> economic dearth when you think about it. It's not so common in North
> America but I think in mainland China people are so poor they eat
> tomatoes, scrambled eggs, and tofu as their main dinner dish day after
> day, night after night! Whoa!!
>
> I think 'high class' cuisine often seeks to preserve freshness and
> the true, 'original' flavor of the food with a minimal amount of
> seasoning. Chinese cuisine often resort to deep frying or stir frying,
> and certain provincial Chinese (like Szechuan) use spices or MSG to
> mask their flaws. Some Korean dishes encourage the use of hot sauce
> (e.g. the bibimbap). Sort of like poor Indians using curry in
> everything - thus you can really have a crappy piece of meat (if they
> can afford it) but you still won't be able to tell what's in it.
> It's like a woman who relies too heavily on makeup. That's why
> ground beef is low grade but you'll never mince filet mignon. And why
> many Chinese kitchens are so invisible - so secretive and furtive in
> their preparation of food that they in fact don't even pass public
> health standards!! One report I read demonstrated that it's cleaner
> (measured in terms of a lack of bacterial count) to eat off the *floor*
> of a university microbiology lab than a food tray at fast foods places
> where teens spit on your onion rings (is that true, or is that just
> Eminem lyrics) or at Chinese restaurants.
>
> Another sign is quality vs quantity. Chinese buffets now abound in
> North America - because they are cheap - and Chinese buffets love
> to emphasize quantity at the expense of quality. They are geared
> towards 300 lb trailer wives and inner city single moms and new
> southeast Asian immigrants probably. Higher class restaurants
> emphasize more on preparation and not on quantity, and the end product
> is presented perhaps as a psychological mechanism - product being food
> is so much smaller than the plate, and are 'vertically stacked' rather
> than a 'horizontal mess'.
>
> Also, practically, when was the last time at a quiet, sedate wine
> 'n' cheese inbred soirees or business meetings that they serve
> Chinese food? Never! Never! Never! These just do not have the
> same cachet at upper middle class or upper class/educated functions -
> it's like wearing a tracksuit to a wedding. Japanese is however
> increasingly served in these functions, and in fact I think it adds a
> touch of cosmopolitanism to an otherwise dull mélange of French and
> Italian.
>
> And let's not forget also that at the lower middle class level, we
> see Chinese and Koreans trying to operate Japanese restaurants, dishing
> (pun huh?) out ersatz Japanese food. You just don't see things the
> other way around.
>
> Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
>
> So why is all this important? Food is like sex. Hunger is one of our
> natural, human, cardinal urges. It may be a non-topic and neglected
> when it's abundant, such as in North America, but since food is
> required by everyone to survive, i.e. it drives natural selection,
> cultural varations hold a key to understanding something deeper
> perhaps. I think what we eat and how we do it - like sexual norms and
> mores - reflect and reveal ourselves more than anything else. I've
> listed a few suggestions here, as a brute, who visits, occasionally,
> Burger King. But if I can see it, I'm sure others can also.
>
> Yeah yeah I know, "de gustibus non est disputandum", i.e. taste is
> not disputable. But in this mano a mano comparison between Japanese and
> Chinese/Korean cuisine, I say the Japanese won hands down.
>
> Postscript: two other objective data points.
>
> 1. Price. Unless they're Chinese or Korean owned, Japanese restaurants
> in general charge a premium for their food and services. While the free
> market is not always rational, it does indicate that there is a demand,
> at least in North America. And I think that's true in the Far East as
> well outside Japan - Japanese restaurants are never considered 'cheap
> food' or 'lower class food'. Zagat survey indicates many more Japanese
> that make it on top compared to Chinese, *in spite of* the latter's
> popularity. It's almost like 150 girls and 50 boys competing for the
> Math Olympiad, but the top 10 winners are all boys.
>
> 2. Yes you can get real sick from Chinese food. It's called the Chinese
> Restaurant Syndrome. Heard of it? He
> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001126.htm
>
> "Chinese restaurant syndrome is a collection of symptoms that some
> people experience after eating Chinese food. A food additive called
> monosodium glutamate (MSG) has been implicated, but it has not been
> proved to be the agent that causes this condition."
>
> "Life-threatening symptoms may be similar to any other severe allergic
> reaction and require immediate medical attention. These include the
> following:
>
> * Swelling of the throat
> * Chest pain
> * Heart palpitations
> * Shortness of breath"
>
> Seems that the above 2 points which have been blatantly neglected in my
> first go-around carry more weight. Chinese food more often than not
> just does not have the same cachet as Japanese.
>
> Make no mistake: Chinese food is very much like porn: (1) best enjoyed
> private and takeout, (2) good variety, (3) addictive to some, (4)
> cheap, (5) often dirty, and (6) most outlets are found in sleazy
> neighborhoods. That is, it's way way fun. It's just not always
> mentioned in the same breath as your CEO's inbred wine 'n' cheese
> soiree.
>

Well, the PFChang China Bistro shows one way towards increasing respect
for Chinese food. Susannah Foo has a Chinese Restaurant in Philadelphia
that has a very good reputation. Barbara Tropp had, until she died, the
China Moon restaurant in SF. And thats just scraping the surface. In
reality, there are all kinds and levels of Chinese food served out there
- cachet appears to be in the eyes of the beholder. Anyone who knows
much about food knows that Chinese cuisine is as refined and
sophisticated as any in the world.

Ian

"ian" > wrote in message
...
> RichAsianKid wrote:
> > A few random thoughts here.
> >
> > First there is presentation. When you start deliberately mixing food
> > together on the table - haha how can you call it an 'art' with
> > those bibimbap or something, in a charred stone bowl or all that lo
> > mein on a sizzling plate? One of the hallmarks of haute cuisine is its
> > emphasis on preparation or presentation technique -not how you
> > reproduce your stomach contents for public view! In fact in haute
> > cuisine often different ingredients are cooked separately to the right
> > degree of 'ripeness' and then mixed together, hence the
> > extraordinary amount of time needed for preparation. Bento boxes -
> > and these are considered cheap Japanese - like 'rice boxes' -
> > nonetheless preserve or at least pretend to preserve this quality.
> > Koreans and the Chinese do not. Else you may as well go for an infant
> > diet or a pureed diet for old people. The fact that everyone digs into
> > a public plate in the case of Chinese - thus sometimes without a pair
> > of public utensil (i.e. chopstick) is yet another 'low class' sign
> > - it's probably a residual from an ancient powwow ceremony where
> > people just feast on a dead carcass after a long day's hunt. Very
> > very primitive (or authentic, depends on your perspective).
> >
> > Décor of the restaurant is another issue and is peripheral to this
> > subject of presentation. Even a middle class Japanese restaurant (at
> > least in North America) is quiet - meaning you can hear what your
> > neighbors are saying, unlike Chinese or sometimes Korean - and at
> > times you feel like you've entered a monastery or Shinto temple
> > inadvertently where you start your life journey and engage in some epic
> > meditation session. "Authentic" Chinese restaurants - even the so
> > called more
> > expensive ones are like a flea markets or a public high school
> > cafeterias where you need to shove your way in and where you are
> > sometimes given a time limit on when you should finish your food, and
> > where you have to combat waiters from mixing residual food between
> > dishes together - just so they get a head start in dish cleaning, if
> > they do that at all....
> >
> > The use of ingredients is important. Eggs or bean sprouts may be valid
> > ingredients but they are very cheap, and are definitely not suitable
> > for a main course dish at supper, and are certainly no showcase prizes.
> > No, in fact the use of these materials reflects a sign of historical
> > economic dearth when you think about it. It's not so common in North
> > America but I think in mainland China people are so poor they eat
> > tomatoes, scrambled eggs, and tofu as their main dinner dish day after
> > day, night after night! Whoa!!
> >
> > I think 'high class' cuisine often seeks to preserve freshness and
> > the true, 'original' flavor of the food with a minimal amount of
> > seasoning. Chinese cuisine often resort to deep frying or stir frying,
> > and certain provincial Chinese (like Szechuan) use spices or MSG to
> > mask their flaws. Some Korean dishes encourage the use of hot sauce
> > (e.g. the bibimbap). Sort of like poor Indians using curry in
> > everything - thus you can really have a crappy piece of meat (if they
> > can afford it) but you still won't be able to tell what's in it.
> > It's like a woman who relies too heavily on makeup. That's why
> > ground beef is low grade but you'll never mince filet mignon. And why
> > many Chinese kitchens are so invisible - so secretive and furtive in
> > their preparation of food that they in fact don't even pass public
> > health standards!! One report I read demonstrated that it's cleaner
> > (measured in terms of a lack of bacterial count) to eat off the *floor*
> > of a university microbiology lab than a food tray at fast foods places
> > where teens spit on your onion rings (is that true, or is that just
> > Eminem lyrics) or at Chinese restaurants.
> >
> > Another sign is quality vs quantity. Chinese buffets now abound in
> > North America - because they are cheap - and Chinese buffets love
> > to emphasize quantity at the expense of quality. They are geared
> > towards 300 lb trailer wives and inner city single moms and new
> > southeast Asian immigrants probably. Higher class restaurants
> > emphasize more on preparation and not on quantity, and the end product
> > is presented perhaps as a psychological mechanism - product being food
> > is so much smaller than the plate, and are 'vertically stacked' rather
> > than a 'horizontal mess'.
> >
> > Also, practically, when was the last time at a quiet, sedate wine
> > 'n' cheese inbred soirees or business meetings that they serve
> > Chinese food? Never! Never! Never! These just do not have the
> > same cachet at upper middle class or upper class/educated functions -
> > it's like wearing a tracksuit to a wedding. Japanese is however
> > increasingly served in these functions, and in fact I think it adds a
> > touch of cosmopolitanism to an otherwise dull mélange of French and
> > Italian.
> >
> > And let's not forget also that at the lower middle class level, we
> > see Chinese and Koreans trying to operate Japanese restaurants, dishing
> > (pun huh?) out ersatz Japanese food. You just don't see things the
> > other way around.
> >
> > Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> > acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> > food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> > Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> > expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
> >
> > So why is all this important? Food is like sex. Hunger is one of our
> > natural, human, cardinal urges. It may be a non-topic and neglected
> > when it's abundant, such as in North America, but since food is
> > required by everyone to survive, i.e. it drives natural selection,
> > cultural varations hold a key to understanding something deeper
> > perhaps. I think what we eat and how we do it - like sexual norms and
> > mores - reflect and reveal ourselves more than anything else. I've
> > listed a few suggestions here, as a brute, who visits, occasionally,
> > Burger King. But if I can see it, I'm sure others can also.
> >
> > Yeah yeah I know, "de gustibus non est disputandum", i.e. taste is
> > not disputable. But in this mano a mano comparison between Japanese and
> > Chinese/Korean cuisine, I say the Japanese won hands down.
> >
> > Postscript: two other objective data points.
> >
> > 1. Price. Unless they're Chinese or Korean owned, Japanese restaurants
> > in general charge a premium for their food and services. While the free
> > market is not always rational, it does indicate that there is a demand,
> > at least in North America. And I think that's true in the Far East as
> > well outside Japan - Japanese restaurants are never considered 'cheap
> > food' or 'lower class food'. Zagat survey indicates many more Japanese
> > that make it on top compared to Chinese, *in spite of* the latter's
> > popularity. It's almost like 150 girls and 50 boys competing for the
> > Math Olympiad, but the top 10 winners are all boys.
> >
> > 2. Yes you can get real sick from Chinese food. It's called the Chinese
> > Restaurant Syndrome. Heard of it? He
> > http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001126.htm
> >
> > "Chinese restaurant syndrome is a collection of symptoms that some
> > people experience after eating Chinese food. A food additive called
> > monosodium glutamate (MSG) has been implicated, but it has not been
> > proved to be the agent that causes this condition."
> >
> > "Life-threatening symptoms may be similar to any other severe allergic
> > reaction and require immediate medical attention. These include the
> > following:
> >
> > * Swelling of the throat
> > * Chest pain
> > * Heart palpitations
> > * Shortness of breath"
> >
> > Seems that the above 2 points which have been blatantly neglected in my
> > first go-around carry more weight. Chinese food more often than not
> > just does not have the same cachet as Japanese.
> >
> > Make no mistake: Chinese food is very much like porn: (1) best enjoyed
> > private and takeout, (2) good variety, (3) addictive to some, (4)
> > cheap, (5) often dirty, and (6) most outlets are found in sleazy
> > neighborhoods. That is, it's way way fun. It's just not always
> > mentioned in the same breath as your CEO's inbred wine 'n' cheese
> > soiree.
> >
>
> Well, the PFChang China Bistro shows one way towards increasing respect
> for Chinese food. Susannah Foo has a Chinese Restaurant in Philadelphia
> that has a very good reputation. Barbara Tropp had, until she died, the
> China Moon restaurant in SF. And thats just scraping the surface. In
> reality, there are all kinds and levels of Chinese food served out there
> - cachet appears to be in the eyes of the beholder. Anyone who knows
> much about food knows that Chinese cuisine is as refined and
> sophisticated as any in the world.
>
> Ian
>

Increasing respect? Or merely increasing expoloitation of a clientele who
really have no idea what good or bad Chinese food is?
I ate at a PF Chang's. Once. Won't happen again.
On a par with eating sushi at a Todai.
So far I haven't run into "bad" Korean food which makes me happy.
M

On 2006-11-23 20:55:11 -0800, "Musashi" > said:

> Increasing respect? Or merely increasing expoloitation of a clientele who
> really have no idea what good or bad Chinese food is?

Beats chop suey in one of those joints that serve really bad 1960's
style "Chinese" food. There all over middle America.

> I ate at a PF Chang's. Once. Won't happen again.

I'll echo that. Well, I'll probably eat there again when I'm a
minority in the dining selection crew, but I thought it a lot of
blabber and expense for relatively little. It is to Chinese food what
the Olive Garden is to Italian: formulaic, consistent/predictable and
overpriced.

> On a par with eating sushi at a Todai.

I'm not a fan of the sushi at Todai, the rest of the stuff can good to
very good. But it's an unfair comparison. Todai isn't really ABOUT
sushi, do you think? I don't know, maybe it is. But it certainly
isn't a formulae chain approach to sushi.

> So far I haven't run into "bad" Korean food which makes me happy.

Once they get the Korean BBQ thing down they'll probably have an equivalent.

I note in the paper that the originator of the Chowhounds web page, now
sold to CNet is taking a cross-country dining tour and shares and
interesting observation. All towns seem to have a Vietnamese
restaurant now. Doesn't surprise me in the least. I predicted it 20
years ago. Americans love noodles, chicken soup, egg rolls, and much
of the rest of a straight-up-the-middle Vietnamese restaurant.

I expect a one-size-fits-all chain to emerge soon.
--
What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

RichAsianKid wrote:

> Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.

The Japanese also have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world and
they now have mass screening for it. They must be doing something wrong!
Could it be their diet?

On 2006-11-24, Mrs Bonk > wrote:

> The Japanese also have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world and
> they now have mass screening for it. They must be doing something wrong!
> Could it be their diet?

They also have a very high incidence gout.

nb

Musashi wrote:
> "ian" > wrote in message
> ...
>> RichAsianKid wrote:
>>> A few random thoughts here.
>>>
>>> First there is presentation. When you start deliberately mixing food
>>> together on the table - haha how can you call it an 'art' with
>>> those bibimbap or something, in a charred stone bowl or all that lo
>>> mein on a sizzling plate? One of the hallmarks of haute cuisine is its
>>> emphasis on preparation or presentation technique -not how you
>>> reproduce your stomach contents for public view! In fact in haute
>>> cuisine often different ingredients are cooked separately to the right
>>> degree of 'ripeness' and then mixed together, hence the
>>> extraordinary amount of time needed for preparation. Bento boxes -
>>> and these are considered cheap Japanese - like 'rice boxes' -
>>> nonetheless preserve or at least pretend to preserve this quality.
>>> Koreans and the Chinese do not. Else you may as well go for an infant
>>> diet or a pureed diet for old people. The fact that everyone digs into
>>> a public plate in the case of Chinese - thus sometimes without a pair
>>> of public utensil (i.e. chopstick) is yet another 'low class' sign
>>> - it's probably a residual from an ancient powwow ceremony where
>>> people just feast on a dead carcass after a long day's hunt. Very
>>> very primitive (or authentic, depends on your perspective).
>>>
>>> Décor of the restaurant is another issue and is peripheral to this
>>> subject of presentation. Even a middle class Japanese restaurant (at
>>> least in North America) is quiet - meaning you can hear what your
>>> neighbors are saying, unlike Chinese or sometimes Korean - and at
>>> times you feel like you've entered a monastery or Shinto temple
>>> inadvertently where you start your life journey and engage in some epic
>>> meditation session. "Authentic" Chinese restaurants - even the so
>>> called more
>>> expensive ones are like a flea markets or a public high school
>>> cafeterias where you need to shove your way in and where you are
>>> sometimes given a time limit on when you should finish your food, and
>>> where you have to combat waiters from mixing residual food between
>>> dishes together - just so they get a head start in dish cleaning, if
>>> they do that at all....
>>>
>>> The use of ingredients is important. Eggs or bean sprouts may be valid
>>> ingredients but they are very cheap, and are definitely not suitable
>>> for a main course dish at supper, and are certainly no showcase prizes.
>>> No, in fact the use of these materials reflects a sign of historical
>>> economic dearth when you think about it. It's not so common in North
>>> America but I think in mainland China people are so poor they eat
>>> tomatoes, scrambled eggs, and tofu as their main dinner dish day after
>>> day, night after night! Whoa!!
>>>
>>> I think 'high class' cuisine often seeks to preserve freshness and
>>> the true, 'original' flavor of the food with a minimal amount of
>>> seasoning. Chinese cuisine often resort to deep frying or stir frying,
>>> and certain provincial Chinese (like Szechuan) use spices or MSG to
>>> mask their flaws. Some Korean dishes encourage the use of hot sauce
>>> (e.g. the bibimbap). Sort of like poor Indians using curry in
>>> everything - thus you can really have a crappy piece of meat (if they
>>> can afford it) but you still won't be able to tell what's in it.
>>> It's like a woman who relies too heavily on makeup. That's why
>>> ground beef is low grade but you'll never mince filet mignon. And why
>>> many Chinese kitchens are so invisible - so secretive and furtive in
>>> their preparation of food that they in fact don't even pass public
>>> health standards!! One report I read demonstrated that it's cleaner
>>> (measured in terms of a lack of bacterial count) to eat off the *floor*
>>> of a university microbiology lab than a food tray at fast foods places
>>> where teens spit on your onion rings (is that true, or is that just
>>> Eminem lyrics) or at Chinese restaurants.
>>>
>>> Another sign is quality vs quantity. Chinese buffets now abound in
>>> North America - because they are cheap - and Chinese buffets love
>>> to emphasize quantity at the expense of quality. They are geared
>>> towards 300 lb trailer wives and inner city single moms and new
>>> southeast Asian immigrants probably. Higher class restaurants
>>> emphasize more on preparation and not on quantity, and the end product
>>> is presented perhaps as a psychological mechanism - product being food
>>> is so much smaller than the plate, and are 'vertically stacked' rather
>>> than a 'horizontal mess'.
>>>
>>> Also, practically, when was the last time at a quiet, sedate wine
>>> 'n' cheese inbred soirees or business meetings that they serve
>>> Chinese food? Never! Never! Never! These just do not have the
>>> same cachet at upper middle class or upper class/educated functions -
>>> it's like wearing a tracksuit to a wedding. Japanese is however
>>> increasingly served in these functions, and in fact I think it adds a
>>> touch of cosmopolitanism to an otherwise dull mélange of French and
>>> Italian.
>>>
>>> And let's not forget also that at the lower middle class level, we
>>> see Chinese and Koreans trying to operate Japanese restaurants, dishing
>>> (pun huh?) out ersatz Japanese food. You just don't see things the
>>> other way around.
>>>
>>> Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
>>> acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
>>> food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
>>> Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
>>> expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
>>>
>>> So why is all this important? Food is like sex. Hunger is one of our
>>> natural, human, cardinal urges. It may be a non-topic and neglected
>>> when it's abundant, such as in North America, but since food is
>>> required by everyone to survive, i.e. it drives natural selection,
>>> cultural varations hold a key to understanding something deeper
>>> perhaps. I think what we eat and how we do it - like sexual norms and
>>> mores - reflect and reveal ourselves more than anything else. I've
>>> listed a few suggestions here, as a brute, who visits, occasionally,
>>> Burger King. But if I can see it, I'm sure others can also.
>>>
>>> Yeah yeah I know, "de gustibus non est disputandum", i.e. taste is
>>> not disputable. But in this mano a mano comparison between Japanese and
>>> Chinese/Korean cuisine, I say the Japanese won hands down.
>>>
>>> Postscript: two other objective data points.
>>>
>>> 1. Price. Unless they're Chinese or Korean owned, Japanese restaurants
>>> in general charge a premium for their food and services. While the free
>>> market is not always rational, it does indicate that there is a demand,
>>> at least in North America. And I think that's true in the Far East as
>>> well outside Japan - Japanese restaurants are never considered 'cheap
>>> food' or 'lower class food'. Zagat survey indicates many more Japanese
>>> that make it on top compared to Chinese, *in spite of* the latter's
>>> popularity. It's almost like 150 girls and 50 boys competing for the
>>> Math Olympiad, but the top 10 winners are all boys.
>>>
>>> 2. Yes you can get real sick from Chinese food. It's called the Chinese
>>> Restaurant Syndrome. Heard of it? He
>>> http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001126.htm
>>>
>>> "Chinese restaurant syndrome is a collection of symptoms that some
>>> people experience after eating Chinese food. A food additive called
>>> monosodium glutamate (MSG) has been implicated, but it has not been
>>> proved to be the agent that causes this condition."
>>>
>>> "Life-threatening symptoms may be similar to any other severe allergic
>>> reaction and require immediate medical attention. These include the
>>> following:
>>>
>>> * Swelling of the throat
>>> * Chest pain
>>> * Heart palpitations
>>> * Shortness of breath"
>>>
>>> Seems that the above 2 points which have been blatantly neglected in my
>>> first go-around carry more weight. Chinese food more often than not
>>> just does not have the same cachet as Japanese.
>>>
>>> Make no mistake: Chinese food is very much like porn: (1) best enjoyed
>>> private and takeout, (2) good variety, (3) addictive to some, (4)
>>> cheap, (5) often dirty, and (6) most outlets are found in sleazy
>>> neighborhoods. That is, it's way way fun. It's just not always
>>> mentioned in the same breath as your CEO's inbred wine 'n' cheese
>>> soiree.
>>>
>> Well, the PFChang China Bistro shows one way towards increasing respect
>> for Chinese food. Susannah Foo has a Chinese Restaurant in Philadelphia
>> that has a very good reputation. Barbara Tropp had, until she died, the
>> China Moon restaurant in SF. And thats just scraping the surface. In
>> reality, there are all kinds and levels of Chinese food served out there
>> - cachet appears to be in the eyes of the beholder. Anyone who knows
>> much about food knows that Chinese cuisine is as refined and
>> sophisticated as any in the world.
>>
>> Ian
>>
>
> Increasing respect? Or merely increasing expoloitation of a clientele who
> really have no idea what good or bad Chinese food is?
> I ate at a PF Chang's. Once. Won't happen again.
> On a par with eating sushi at a Todai.
> So far I haven't run into "bad" Korean food which makes me happy.
> M

I have eaten at PFChangs many times, and while it is definitely food
that has been attenuated for American tastes, it is still enjoyable for
what it is, though yes, overpriced and under-portioned. You might eb
surprised to know that Ms Tropp was one of the consultants on the
PFChang menu.

Ian

I lived in San Antonio during most of the mid-80's - I miss that food so
much. Crab to perfection. Back when the Gulf Coast had a decent
fishery. There is a great Cambodian restaurant in my town now, but it
is on the other side of the city and I rarely get to it.


Gerry wrote:

> I note in the paper that the originator of the Chowhounds web page, now
> sold to CNet is taking a cross-country dining tour and shares and
> interesting observation. All towns seem to have a Vietnamese restaurant
> now. Doesn't surprise me in the least. I predicted it 20 years ago.
> Americans love noodles, chicken soup, egg rolls, and much of the rest of
> a straight-up-the-middle Vietnamese restaurant.
>
> I expect a one-size-fits-all chain to emerge soon.

Being vulnerable to various cancers has much more to do with genetics
than with diet or lifestyles (unless you're ingesting Benzene or
something..)


notbob wrote:
> On 2006-11-24, Mrs Bonk > wrote:
>
>> The Japanese also have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world and
>> they now have mass screening for it. They must be doing something wrong!
>> Could it be their diet?
>
> They also have a very high incidence gout.
>
> nb

Howard Johnson wrote:
> Being vulnerable to various cancers has much more to do with genetics
> than with diet or lifestyles (unless you're ingesting Benzene or
> something..)


nonsense

On 2006-11-24 11:28:05 -0800, "Mrs Bonk" > said:

> Howard Johnson wrote:
>> Being vulnerable to various cancers has much more to do with genetics
>> than with diet or lifestyles (unless you're ingesting Benzene or
>> something..)
>
>
> nonsense

Stop! You're both right!
--
What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

"Mrs Bonk" > wrote in message
...
> RichAsianKid wrote:
>
> > Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> > acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> > food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> > Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> > expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
>
> The Japanese also have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world and
> they now have mass screening for it. They must be doing something wrong!
> Could it be their diet?
>

The high rate of stomach cancer in Japan comes from eating a huge amount of
white polished rice.
I am sure that all the talk of brown rice, unprocessed flour, etc really is
good for you.
However the US has the highest rate of all cancers.
M

Thought you decided to killfile a certain someone a while back? Guess
you're not a man of your word??

A few comments:

Gerry wrote:
> On 2006-11-22 23:39:36 -0800, "RichAsianKid" > said:
> > "Authentic" Chinese restaurants - even the so called more expensive
> > ones are like a flea markets or a public high school cafeterias...
>
> Imagine how much more you might dislike them if you had actually visited one!

Er, as a matter of fact, dislike came NOT from imagination but from
actual experience. Not from your nice fusion restaurants or
"Westernized" Chinese restaurants but from *traditional* Chinatown
restaurants, and more importantly, from 'average' restaurants from
places like HOng Kong...i.e. from where REAL Chinese cuisine is
supposed to be. And those in China are just unmentionable - people
elbow their way in front you to get to their table.

See what you think about how they present their foods and you can tell
me. One is actually from a supposedly posh hotel in Hong Kong for a
wedding; the other two are from a famous and traditional restaurant
just north of Hong Kong, in mainland China. Do you think people in
North America will accept this as a great dining experience? All pics
by yours truly.

Pig Head
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4...osite%201..jpg

Roast Chicken
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4...0Chicken.1.jpg

Roasted Caterpillars
http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/4...erpillar.1.jpg


>
> > The use of ingredients is important. Eggs or bean sprouts may be valid
> > ingredients but they are very cheap...
>
> I guess rice gruel loaded with gold leaf would be good then?

A few years ago there apparently were cases of acute gold poisoning in
mainland China, as the few nouveau riche decided to try that out to
flaunt their wealth...

>
> > It's not so common in North America but I think in mainland China
> > people are so poor they eat tomatoes, scrambled eggs, and tofu as their
> > main dinner dish day after day, night after night! Whoa!!
>
> Whoa is right! I think you're thinking has some major gaps in it. It's
> more like "crippled" I suppose.

You sound surprised. It's real, go to mainland China and you'll see it.

>
> > I think 'high class' cuisine often seeks to preserve freshness and the
> > true, 'original' flavor of the food with a minimal amount of
> > seasoning...
>
> I guess we're going to dump Italian, French and Indian foods as "high
> class", then? And also, do you really believe the entire world is
> either eating "high class" food or crap? Are those really the only two
> options?


Just did a search. You're behind. Look at the 2006 Zagat survey results
rich elaborate preps vs simple natural flavors....and don't miss
the last part on Chinese vs Japanese.

http://chicago.about.com/od/fooddrin...0406_zagat.htm
Zagat 2006 - America's Top Restaurants

Changing Palates: Another trend signaled by the guide is the continuing
movement of the American palate away from rich, elaborate preparations
toward the simple natural flavors of fresh local produce. As a result,
the mark of an acclaimed chef today is no longer the formal French
recipe (note the recent closings of such formal French bastions as
Maison Robert in Boston, Maisonette in Cincinnati and Le Cirque, La
Cote Basque and Lutece in New York), but rather the ability to
incorporate the freshest possible produce, meats and seafood from the
best local suppliers -- like Union Square Cafe in New York, the French
Laundry in Napa Valley, Mistral in Seattle, L'Espalier in Boston, Green
Zebra in Chicago, and Chef Allen's in Miami.

Japanese vs. Chinese: Among the key trends this year is the rise of
Japanese food. In fact, sushi restaurants lead the Top Food and/or Most
Popular lists in several cities, including Chicago (Mirai Sushi). On
the other hand, fine Chinese dining, once the leading Asian cuisine in
the U.S., seems to have stalled, with not even one Chinese restaurant
reaching the Top Food Rankings.

(And I should point this one out: From the Zagat survey (not shown
here) a cursory inspection demonstrates to me that other Asian ones are
well represented too - Thai, as well as Fusion. People then point out,
ah!! But Chinese restaurants are very very popular. PRECISELY. Imagine
if you have 150 students from school A and 50 students from school B
for math olympiad, and all the top ten students are from school B. See
the point?)



>
> > Another sign is quality vs quantity. Chinese buffets now abound in
> > North America - because they are cheap - and Chinese buffets love to
> > emphasize quantity at the expense of quality. They are geared towards
> > 300 lb trailer wives and inner city single moms and new southeast Asian
> > immigrants probably. Higher class restaurants emphasize more on
> > preparation and not on quantity, and the end product is presented
> > perhaps as a psychological mechanism - product being food is so much
> > smaller than the plate, and are 'vertically stacked' rather than a
> > 'horizontal mess'.
>
> What you've said is that expensive restaurants focus on different
> thinngs than inexpensive restaurants. That's pretty amazing logic.
> It's true that Chinese-American families (and Vietnamese-American),
> frequently dining in larger groups, have a different approach to cost
> and dining style than sushi-bars. Is that some kind of major satori
> for you? Do your mental "difficulties" always have you comparing
> apples to oranges, or only on this topic?

As you said, Chinese-American families often dine in large groups, and
(often) prefer cheaper dine-outs. Cost seems like a very important
factor for them. Others (especially Hong Kong'ers and Taiwanese) will
just label mainlanders as cheap......no need to use such euphemism...

>
> I can't imagine the level of mental problems you must have to provide
> such a large pile of faux logic to provide your anti-Chinese bias.
>

Love you ad hom.

It's only bias for you because you deliberately try not to look at the
obvious. Like I said before, Chinese food can be privately satisfying,
is cheap, best enjoyed takeout, good variety etc as I've said before,
like porn. But it's more often than not your 'cheap ethnic' food,
whereas other ethnic foods like Japanese or Italian have "moved
upstream".

> > Also, practically, when was the last time at a quiet, sedate wine 'n'
> > cheese inbred soirees or business meetings that they serve Chinese
> > food? Never! Never! Never!
>
> Quite a number of times. And I've never had a wine 'n' chese inbred
> soiree with Japanese food. So what does that mean? Only that Chinese
> food is probably easier to cater than Japanese. Does that make
> Japanese gooder?

Possibly samosas and spring rolls - are these really really Chinese?
Will you get pork dumplings, shrimp dumplings, which as just as easy to
cater? Doubtful - when there isn't a huge Chinese/Asian clientele.
(Incidentally Lufthansa first class serves Japanese, don't you know? I
was there. I was so impressed I took a pic of it. If you want I can
post a pic of the sushi served there for you. Do you know of airlines
that do not fly to China/HongKong/Taiwan serving Chinese dim sum in
first class?)


>
> > These just do not have the same cachet at upper middle class or upper
> > class/educated functions - it's like wearing a tracksuit to a wedding.
> > Japanese is however increasingly served in these functions, and in fact
> > I think it adds a touch of cosmopolitanism to an otherwise dull mélange
> > of French and Italian.
>
> How much cache is there in the same bullshit rubber chicken and boiled
> vegetables, because that's what I usually get for dinner in what of
> these soirees. Does that make it good?

The key is the cachet, not necessarily the food. Some of these
occasions you're there to see and be seen, and no host would
deliberately try to lower the cachet of the place by serving
inappropriate food - I agree the food may not be the best, but again,
it's about 'show' in this instance, and NOT about necessary quality.
Probably a Burger King sandwich would be way more satisfying.

>
> > Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> > acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> > food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> > Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> > expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
>
> And one of the higher rates of suicide. So I guess the omega-3 acids
> must be the reason why. Your bullshit approach to science is almost as
> bad as your bullshit approach to aesthetics.
>

And not only one of the longest life expectancy, Japan is the
healthiest country in the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/774434.stm

Japan 'the most healthy country'
Japanese children can look forward to a long and healthy life
People who live in Japan can expect to remain in good health longer
than anybody else in the world, according to the World Health
Organisation (WHO).

Read the whole article.

I do agree that diet does not explain everything though. Genes probably
matter a lot too.



>
> > Postscript: two other objective data points.
>
> Really objective?
>
> > 1. Price. Unless they're Chinese or Korean owned, Japanese restaurants
> > in general charge a premium for their food and services.
>
> And the supporting objective data? When you've said Japanese I assume
> you mean, throughout, sushi restaurants. Japanese roll-and-bowl joints
> don't charge a premium. And what does "charging a premium" say about
> the food? Nothing. Why don't we throw Cartier in there, since you're
> really not talking about food-related considerations.


http://chicago.about.com/od/fooddrin...0406_zagat.htm

Japanese vs. Chinese: Among the key trends this year is the rise of
Japanese food. In fact, sushi restaurants lead the Top Food and/or Most
Popular lists in several cities, including Chicago (Mirai Sushi). On
the other hand, fine Chinese dining, once the leading Asian cuisine in
the U.S., seems to have stalled, with ***not even one Chinese
restaurant reaching the Top Food Rankings.*** (Emphasis mine)

Top Food is in general more expensive. Do you think otherwise?

The trend holds in the Far East, like HOng Kong, I was told. I don't
have figures there, but from personal experience I can tell you that
most of the Japanese restaurants (along with "Western" ones like
American steakhouses, French of course, Italian etc) charge premiums as
well. Yes, a lot of this may have to do with the service etc, but it's
difficult to make the argument that food is generally better the less
you pay.

And if people are willing to pay a premium for Japanese food, it's sort
of like the Jaguar XK8 commercial that says, "Gorgeous, you're worth
it." It may not be the fastest car, but certainly the packaging is
enough for a good driving experience...

>
> > 2. Yes you can get real sick from Chinese food. It's called the Chinese
> > Restaurant Syndrome.
>
> You can get real sick from any food poorly prepared. Fugu has it's
> liabilities, a few die from it each year. Salmonilla and e. coli are
> known in all dining places that serve meat. I don't think msg poisoning
> is an actual killer.
>

True, I was actually told not to go to Chinese operated Japanese
restaurants because they tend to cut corners and now have these
Chinese-operated Japanese all-you-can-eat sushi buffets!! Having said
that there is no guarantee that an authentic Japanese food may not be
contaminated.

> > A food additive called monosodium glutamate (MSG) has been implicated,
> > but it has not been proved to be the agent that causes this condition."
>
> If it has not proven to be the agent, why are you citing it?
>

If it's not MSG, then it's even more scary! Because now you don't know
what's in your Chinese food!!

> > Make no mistake: Chinese food is very much like porn.
>
> I'll assume you have enough background in the later to begin the
> comparison, but I'm not sure you have enough "focus" on the former for
> it to make any sense.
>

Sex and food are both primal. No need to be puritanical about either.

Mrs Bonk wrote:
> RichAsianKid wrote:
>
> > Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
> > acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
> > food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
> > Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
> > expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
>
> The Japanese also have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world and
> they now have mass screening for it. They must be doing something wrong!
> Could it be their diet?

And Japan is the Healthiest Country in the World. China on the other
hand is ranked very low. US doesn't rank that high either, but higher
than China.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/774434.stm

Japan 'the most healthy country'
Japanese children can look forward to a long and healthy life

People who live in Japan can expect to remain in good health longer
than anybody else in the world, according to the World Health
Organisation (WHO).

WHO scientists have developed a new way of calculating the number of
years that a person can be expected to live in full health.

It is known as the DALE (Disability-Adjusted Life Years) system, and
gives a truer picture of the health of a country than simply studying
death rates.

Top ten countries
Japan - 74.5 years
Australia - 73.2
France - 73.1
Sweden - 73.0
Italy - 72.7
Spain - 72.8
Greece - 72.5
Switzerland - 72.5
Monaco - 72.4
Andorra - 72.3

Using the system to rank the world's 191 countries has uncovered some
surprise findings.

In Japan the average healthy life expectancy is 74.5 years.

Australia is second and France third on the list, but the US ranks only
number 24.

The UK is 14th, with an average of 71.7 years. For UK women the average
is 73.7 years, for men it is 69.7 years

Sierra Leone comes last with an average life expectancy at birth of
only 25.9 years.

There is a notable gender gap in many countries. For instance, in
Russia women can expect 66.4 years of full health, compared to just
56.1 years for men.

The WHO estimates almost 56 million people died in 1999, 10.5 million
of whom were children less than 5 years of age.

Previously, life expectancy estimates were based on the overall length
of life based on data about death rates.

Bottom ten countries
Sierra Leona - 25.9 years
Niger - 29.1
Malawi - 29.4
Zambia - 30.3
Botswana - 32.3
Uganda - 32.7
Rwanda - 32.8
Zimbabwe - 32.9
Mali - 33.1
Ethiopia - 33.5

To calculate DALE, the years of ill-health are weighted according to
severity and subtracted from the expected overall life expectancy to
give the equivalent years of healthy life.

The WHO rankings show that years lost to disability are substantially
higher in poorer countries because some limitations - blindness,
paralysis and the debilitating effects of several tropical diseases
such as malaria - strike children and young adults.

People in the healthiest regions lose 9% of their lives to disability,
compared to 14% in the worst-off countries.

DALE is estimated to equal or exceed 70 years in 24 countries.

At the other extreme are 32 countries where disability-adjusted life
expectancy is estimated to be less than 40 years.

Many of these are countries with major epidemics of HIV/AIDS, among
other causes.

Dr Christopher Murray, director of WHO's Global Programme on Evidence
for Health Policy, said: "The position of the United States is one of
the major surprises of the new rating system.

"Basically, you die earlier and spend more time disabled if you're an
American rather than a member of most other advanced countries."

The reasons why the US rates so low may be partly due to the very poor
standard of health among some ethnic minorities and people who live in
the inner cities.

Rates of coronary heart disease are also high.

All of the bottom 10 countries were in sub-Saharan Africa, where the
HIV-AIDS epidemic is rampant.

Alan Lopex, co-ordinator of the WHO Epidemiology and Burden of Disease
team, said: "Healthy life expectancy in some African countries is
dropping back to levels we haven't seen in advanced countries since
Medieval times."

Full List of Countries
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/778385.stm

Country Overall Male Female
Japan 74.5 71.9 77.2
Australia 73.2 70.8 75.5
France 73.1 69.3 76.9
Sweden 73.0 71.2 74.9
Spain 72.8 69.8 75.7
Italy 72.7 70.0 75.4
Greece 72.5 70.5 74.6
Switzerland 72.5 69.5 75.5
Monaco 72.4 68.5 76.3
Andorra 72.3 69.3 75.2
San Marino 72.3 69.5 75.0
Canada 72.0 70.0 74.0
Netherlands 72.0 69.6 74.4
United Kingdom 71.7 69.7 73.7
Norway 71.7 68.8 74.6
Belgium 71.6 68.7 74.6
Austria 71.6 68.8 74.4
Luxembourg 71.1 68.0 74.2
Iceland 70.8 69.2 72.3
Finland 70.5 67.2 73.7
Malta 70.5 68.4 72.5
Germany 70.4 67.4 73.5
Israel 70.4 69.2 71.6
United States of America 70.0 67.5 72.6
Cyprus 69.8 68.7 70.9
Dominica 69.8 67.2 72.3
Ireland 69.6 67.5 71.7
Denmark 69.4 67.2 71.5
Portugal 69.3 65.9 72.7
Singapore 69.3 67.4 71.2
NewZealand 69.2 67.1 71.2
Chile 68.6 66.0 71.3
Cuba 68.4 67.4 69.4
Slovenia 68.4 64.9 71.9
Czech Republic 68.0 65.2 70.8
Jamaica 67.3 66.8 67.9
Uruguay 67.0 64.1 69.9
Croatia 67.0 63.3 70.6
Argentina 66.7 63.8 69.6
Costa Rica 66.7 65.2 68.1
Armenia 66.7 65.0 68.3
Slovakia 66.6 63.5 69.7
Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 66.4 65.0 67.8
Georgia 66.3 63.1 69.4
Poland 66.2 62.3 70.1
Yugoslavia 66.1 64.2 68.1
Panama 66.0 64.9 67.2
Antigua and Barbuda 65.8 63.4 68.3
Grenada 65.5 62.4 68.5
United Arab Emirates 65.4 65.0 65.8
Republic of Korea 65.0 62.3 67.7
Venezuela, Bolivarian Republic of 65.0 62.9 67.1
Barbados 65.0 62.4 67.6
Saint Lucia 65.0 62.4 67.6
Mexico 65.0 62.4 67.6
Bosnia and Herzegovina 64.9 63.4 66.4
Trinidad and Tobago 64.6 62.8 66.4
Saudi Arabia 64.5 65.1 64.0
Brunei Darussalam 64.4 63.4 65.4
Bulgaria 64.4 61.2 67.7
Bahrain 64.4 63.9 64.9
Hungary 64.1 60.4 67.9
Lithuania 64.1 60.6 67.5
The former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia 63.7 61.8 65.6
Azerbaijan 63.7 60.6 66.7
Qatar 63.5 64.2 62.8
Cook Islands 63.4 62.2 64.5
Kuwait 63.2 63.0 63.4
Estonia 63.1 58.1 68.1
Ukraine 63.0 58.5 67.5
Paraguay 63.0 60.7 65.3
Oman 63.0 61.8 64.1
Turkey 62.9 64.0 61.8
Colombia 62.9 60.3 65.5
Tonga 62.9 61.4 64.3
Sri Lanka 62.8 59.3 66.3
Suriname 62.7 60.2 65.2
Mauritius 62.7 59.0 66.3
Dominican Republic 62.5 62.1 62.9
Romania 62.3 58.8 65.8
China 62.3 61.2 63.3
Latvia 62.2 57.1 67.2
Belarus 61.7 67.2
Algeria 61.6 62.5 60.7
Niue 61.6 61.0 62.2
Saint Kitts and Nevis 61.6 58.7 64.4
El Salvador 61.5 58.6 64.5
Republic of Moldova 61.5 58.5 64.5
Malaysia 61.4 61.3 61.6
Tunisia 61.4 62.0 60.7
Russian Federation 61.3 56.1 66.4
Honduras 61.1 60.0 62.3
Ecuador 61.0 59.9 62.1
Belize 60.9 58.5 63.3
Lebanon 60.6 61.2 60.1
Iran, Islamic Republic of 60.5 61.3 59.8
Samoa 60.5 58.7 62.3
Guyana 60.2 57.1 63.3
Thailand 60.2 58.4 62.1
Uzbekistan 60.2 58.0 62.3
Jordan 60.0 60.7 59.3
Albania 60.0 56.5 63.4
Indonesia 59.7 58.8 60.6
Micronesia, Federated States of 59.6 58.7 60.6
Peru 59.4 58.0 60.8
Fiji 59.4 57.7 61.1
Libyan Arab Jamahiriya 59.3 59.7 58.9
Seychelles 59.3 56.4 62.1
Bahamas 59.1 56.7 61.6
Morocco 59.1 58.7 59.4
Brazil 59.1 55.2 62.9
Palau 59.0 57.4 60.7
Philippines 58.9 57.1 60.7
Syrian Arab Republic 58.8 58.8 58.9
Egypt 58.5 58.6 58.3
Vietnam 58.2 56.7 59.6
Nicaragua 58.1 56.4 59.9
Cape Verde 57.6 54.6 60.6
Tuvalu 57.4 57.1 57.6
Tajikistan 57.3 55.1 59.4
Marshall Islands 56.8 56.0 57.6
Kazakhstan 56.4 51.5 61.2
Kyrgyzstan 56.3 53.4 59.1
Pakistan 55.9 55.0 56.8
Kiribati 55.3 53.9 56.6
Iraq 55.3 55.4 55.1
Solomon Islands 54.9 54.5 55.3
Turkmenistan 54.3 51.9 56.7
Guatemala 54.3 52.1 56.4
Maldives 53.9 54.4 53.3
Mongolia 53.8 51.3 56.3
Sao Tome and Principe 53.5 52.1 54.8
Bolivia 53.3 52.5 54.1
India 53.2 52.8 53.5
Vanuatu 52.8 51.3 54.4
Nauru 52.5 49.8 55.1
Democratic People's Republic of Korea 52.3 51.4 53.1
Bhutan 51.8 51.4 52.2
Myanmar 51.6 51.4 51.9
Bangladesh 49.9 50.1 49.8
Yemen 49.7 49.7 49.7
Nepal 49.5 49.4 49.5
Gambia 48.3 47.2 49.4
Gabon 47.8 46.6 49.0
Papua New Guinea 47.0 45.5 48.5
Comoros 46.8 46.1 47.5
Lao People's Democratic Republic 46.1 45.0 47.1
Cambodia 45.7 43.9 47.5
Ghana 45.5 45.0 46.0
Congo 45.1 44.3 45.9
Senegal 44.6 43.5 45.6
Equatorial Guinea 44.1 42.8 45.4
Haiti 43.8 42.4 45.2
Sudan 43.0 42.6 43.5
Côte d'Ivoire 42.8 42.2 43.3
Cameroon 42.2 41.5 43.0
Benin 42.2 41.9 42.6
Mauritania 41.4 40.2 42.5
Togo 40.7 40.0 41.4
South Africa 39.8 38.6 41.0
Chad 39.4 38.6 40.2
Kenya 39.3 39.0 39.6
Nigeria 38.3 38.1 38.4
Swaziland 38.1 37.8 38.4
Angola 38.0 37.0 38.9
Djibouti 37.9 37.7 38.1
Guinea 37.8 37.0 38.5
Afghanistan 37.7 36.7 38.7
Eritrea 37.7 38.5 36.9
Guinea-Bissau 37.2 36.8 37.5
Lesotho 36.9 36.6 37.2
Madagascar 36.6 36.5 36.8
Somalia 36.4 35.9 36.9
Democratic Republic of the Congo 36.3 36.4 36.2
Central African Republic 36.0 35.6 36.5
United Republic of Tanzania 36.0 35.9 36.1
Namibia 35.6 35.8 35.4
Burkina Faso 35.5 35.3 35.7
Burundi 34.6 34.6 34.6
Mozambique 34.4 33.7 35.1
Liberia 34.0 33.8 34.2
Ethiopia 33.5 33.5 33.5
Mali 33.1 32.6 33.5
Zimbabwe 32.9 33.4 32.4
Rwanda 32.8 32.9 32.7
Uganda 32.7 32.9 32.5
Botswana 32.3 32.3 32.2
Zambia 30.3 30.0 30.7
Malawi 29.4 29.3 29.4
Niger 29.1 28.1 30.1
Sierra Leone 25.9 25.8 26.0

RichAsianKid wrote:
> A few random thoughts here.

...

Why this screed? Did someone ask?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Howard Johnson wrote:
> Being vulnerable to various cancers has much more to do with genetics
> than with diet or lifestyles (unless you're ingesting Benzene or
> something..)

Genetics won't shield from stomach cancer a population that eats a lot
of green-under-the-skin potatoes without peeling them.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On 2006-11-24 16:10:20 -0800, "BimmerBoy" > said:

> Er, as a matter of fact, dislike came NOT from imagination but from
> actual experience.

I disagree. Your opinion seems gleaned from a few crappy Chinese
restaurants and a few nice Japanese ones. Not a comparison, just a
crazy quilt cobbled together from unrelated pieces of information.
Almost every line of your turgid prose is filled with vast generalities
that couldn't possible have any serious utility. Except ****ing
people, off which seems to be your main intent.

> See what you think about how they present their foods and you can tell
> me. One is actually from a supposedly posh hotel in Hong Kong for a
> wedding; the other two are from...

I don't trust what you say as indicative of anything but a self-serving
attempt to bolster a very limited viewpoint. If you succeeded it
wouldn't prove anything to me.

Now you're kill filed in this newsreader too.
--
What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

Interesting posts, Rich Asian Kid - a different politically-uncorrected
perspective, the sort of thing that people are not supposed to say in
public, eh?

Would you care to comment on what I think is the sinsiter side of the
sushi restaurant business in the USA, namely THE MOONIES.

"Sushi And Reverend Moon"

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...,3736876.story





ww

ian wrote:
[..]
> >
>
> Well, the PFChang China Bistro shows one way towards increasing respect
> for Chinese food. Susannah Foo has a Chinese Restaurant in Philadelphia
> that has a very good reputation. Barbara Tropp had, until she died, the
> China Moon restaurant in SF.

Can you or nay one tell me a few top quality,, I mean the very best,
Chinese Restaurant in SF? I am taking an oversea guest for a visit. I
don't want the guest to say Chinese food in American is yucky.





> And thats just scraping the surface. In
> reality, there are all kinds and levels of Chinese food served out there
> - cachet appears to be in the eyes of the beholder. Anyone who knows
> much about food knows that Chinese cuisine is as refined and
> sophisticated as any in the world.
>
> Ian

Don't trust RichAsianKid? OK. I'll let Zagat and Forbes have the final
word then.

Previously I was so very surprised, browsing through city after city,
leafing through page after page of the Zagat survey, and found that
there were always some Japanese 'winners' in most major cities, but NO
Chinese winners in most of them. There were some Asian, fusion, and
Thai winners, but not a single one -- NOT ONE -- Chinese restaurant or
establishment of the twelve or thirteen cities that I went through. I
didn't have time to go through all the cities in the entire book, so I
just left it at that, without quantifying things further. I thought
that, geez, there MUST BE at least one Chinese restaurant somewhere
that would be a winner or nominated in some city, if not in LA or SF
(didn't find any there!) then maybe in some small forgotten middle
American towns.

A recent search for information indicated that RichAsianKid had been
too optimistic.

http://www.zagat.com/about/about.aspx?menu=PR43

First of all, background. "NEW YORK, NY. October 24, 2005 - Zagat
Survey today
released its 2006 America's Top Restaurants guide. The book covers
1,352 eateries in 41 cities nationwide, surveyed by over 115,000 avid
restaurant-goers. In addition to rating and reviewing the most
significant eateries in each city, the Survey includes a great variety
of comparative data regarding meal costs, tipping, favorite cuisines,
customer complaints, frequency of dining out and much more. It also
points to a variety of national dining trends and issues."

" 'Its an eater's market out there," Tim Zagat, CEO of Zagat Survey
said in announcing the guide's results. "The number of really good
restaurants in every city has soared over the last few years while meal
prices have remained relatively consistent.' "

Now, what's the subtitle of this summary?

"Japanese Net Highest Food Ratings in Nearly All Cities, While
Chinese Tread Water"

Really?

So what else does it have to say about Japanese vs Chinese food? MUST
READ!!

Japanese vs. Chinese: Among the key trends this year is the rise of
Japanese food, which clearly isn't just for Californians anymore. In
fact, sushi restaurants lead the Top Food and/or Most Popular lists in
Boston ( Oishii ), Charlotte ( Niko ), Chicago ( Mirai Sushi ), Dallas
( Tepo ), Denver ( Sushi Den ), Las Vegas ( Nobu ), Long Island (
Kotobuki ), Los Angeles ( Matsuhisa and Katsu-ya ), Miami ( Matsuri ),
New York ( Sushi Yasuda ), Portland ( Saburo's ), San Diego (Sushi
Ota), San Francisco ( Sushi Ran ), Seattle ( Nishino ) and Washington
D.C. ( Makoto ), among others. On the other hand, *fine* Chinese
dining, once the leading Asian cuisine in the U.S., seems to have
stalled, with **not even one** Chinese restaurant reaching the Top Food
Rankings. (Highlights mine)

*NOT EVEN ONE* Chinese restaurant reaching the Top Food Rankings??

Can Chinese restaurants be quantity and little quality? That's why
there are so many of them around, yet none of them make it to the top!

(Perhaps jokingly, in "culinary politics", this can be paraphrased as
the 'rape of Beijing'?)

Postscript: According to a Forbes 2005 survey,

1. Guess which city is THE MOST expensive restaurant in the world
located in? (Hint: starts with a T)

2. Guess what cuisine does THE MOST expensive American restaurant
serve? (Hint: starts with a J)

I rest my case.



Gerry wrote:
> On 2006-11-24 16:10:20 -0800, "BimmerBoy" > said:
>
> > Er, as a matter of fact, dislike came NOT from imagination but from
> > actual experience.
>
> I disagree. Your opinion seems gleaned from a few crappy Chinese
> restaurants and a few nice Japanese ones. Not a comparison, just a
> crazy quilt cobbled together from unrelated pieces of information.
> Almost every line of your turgid prose is filled with vast generalities
> that couldn't possible have any serious utility. Except ****ing
> people, off which seems to be your main intent.
>
> > See what you think about how they present their foods and you can tell
> > me. One is actually from a supposedly posh hotel in Hong Kong for a
> > wedding; the other two are from...
>
> I don't trust what you say as indicative of anything but a self-serving
> attempt to bolster a very limited viewpoint. If you succeeded it
> wouldn't prove anything to me.
>
> Now you're kill filed in this newsreader too.
> --
> What a day this has been, what a rare mood I'm in.

Amanda wrote:
> ian wrote:
> [..]
>> Well, the PFChang China Bistro shows one way towards increasing respect
>> for Chinese food. Susannah Foo has a Chinese Restaurant in Philadelphia
>> that has a very good reputation. Barbara Tropp had, until she died, the
>> China Moon restaurant in SF.
>
> Can you or nay one tell me a few top quality,, I mean the very best,
> Chinese Restaurant in SF? I am taking an oversea guest for a visit. I
> don't want the guest to say Chinese food in American is yucky.

Its been a very long time since I was in SF. I found this website that
claims to name the 10 best, but perhaps others here can say if their
list makes any sense:

http://www.gayot.com/restaurants/bestof/SF_chinese.html

Cheers,

Ian

ian wrote:

> Amanda wrote:
>> ian wrote:
>> [..]
>>> Well, the PFChang China Bistro shows one way towards increasing
>>> respect for Chinese food. Susannah Foo has a Chinese Restaurant in
>>> Philadelphia that has a very good reputation. Barbara Tropp had,
>>> until she died, the China Moon restaurant in SF.
>>
>> Can you or nay one tell me a few top quality,, I mean the very best,
>> Chinese Restaurant in SF? I am taking an oversea guest for a visit. I
>> don't want the guest to say Chinese food in American is yucky.
>
> Its been a very long time since I was in SF. I found this website that
> claims to name the 10 best, but perhaps others here can say if their
> list makes any sense:
>
> http://www.gayot.com/restaurants/bestof/SF_chinese.html


I don't know which is the *very* best, but I've eaten in Ton Kiang, which is
on that list, and it excellent.

Another one I thought was outstanding (if it still exists) was Jai Yun, at
923 Pacific Ave.

--
Ken Blake
Please reply to the newsgroup

Ken Blake wrote:
> ian wrote:
[..]
> >
> > Its been a very long time since I was in SF. I found this website that
> > claims to name the 10 best, but perhaps others here can say if their
> > list makes any sense:
> >
> > http://www.gayot.com/restaurants/bestof/SF_chinese.html
>
>
> I don't know which is the *very* best, but I've eaten in Ton Kiang, which is
> on that list, and it excellent.
>
> Another one I thought was outstanding (if it still exists) was Jai Yun, at
> 923 Pacific Ave.

Thanks.


>
> --
> Ken Blake
> Please reply to the newsgroup

ian wrote:
> Amanda wrote:
> > ian wrote:
> > [..]
> >>[..]
>
> Its been a very long time since I was in SF. I found this website that
> claims to name the 10 best, but perhaps others here can say if their
> list makes any sense:
>
> http://www.gayot.com/restaurants/bestof/SF_chinese.html
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ian

Thanks.

BimmerBoy wrote: an informative post that I snipped rather too much of!

All said and done I maintain the healthy longevity is down to education.
If the Japanese had not introduced the stomach cancer scanning then I wonder
where in the table they would have been.

Musashi wrote:
> "Mrs Bonk" > wrote in message
> ...
>> RichAsianKid wrote:
>>
>>> Here is another practical reason. We now know how beneficial omega-3
>>> acids are to health. These are found in cold-water fish amongst other
>>> food items. Fish - sushi, sashimi - is one of the main staples of
>>> Japanese diet. And the Japanese have one of the world's longest life
>>> expectancy at ~81 years, last time I checked.
>>
>> The Japanese also have the highest rate of stomach cancer in the world
>> and they now have mass screening for it. They must be doing something
>> wrong! Could it be their diet?
>>
>
> The high rate of stomach cancer in Japan comes from eating a huge amount
> of white polished rice.
> I am sure that all the talk of brown rice, unprocessed flour, etc really
> is good for you.
> However the US has the highest rate of all cancers.

Thank you dear, I wasn't aware it was down to the rice.

Mrs Bonk wrote:
> BimmerBoy wrote: an informative post that I snipped rather too much of!
>
> All said and done I maintain the healthy longevity is down to education.
> If the Japanese had not introduced the stomach cancer scanning then I wonder
> where in the table they would have been.


The Japanese are huge smokers and drinkers at bedtime. Their chefs
smoke in their kitchens without remorse.

The rich kid is right though - the Japanese have the longest average
lifespan in the world, and the Okinawans have the longest lifespans in
Japan.


ww

BimmerBoy wrote:

I don't think there is any such thing as "gold poisoning" - you might
get lead poisoning if the gold you eat is alloyed with lead.. DUH.
Antimony, Arsenic, Copper, and Nickel are poisonous also.. Platinum
and Silver - wouldn't matter.. Staying on topic - how about this
Polonium Poisoning at a Sushi Bar? Maybe a fish ate something that
fell off a nuclear submarine?

Hmm.

It would be nice to have the statistics broken down to urban and
suburban - and male and female.


wrote:
> The rich kid is right though - the Japanese have the longest average
> lifespan in the world, and the Okinawans have the longest lifespans in
> Japan.
>
>
> ww
>

AHA!! - The Korean Connection..

I'm on the case!

Thanks,

Popeye


> Would you care to comment on what I think is the sinsiter side of the
> sushi restaurant business in the USA, namely THE MOONIES.
>
> "Sushi And Reverend Moon"