On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:24 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
> wrote:

>OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want are
>exorbitant, costwise. One light fixture is a designer fixture, it's $4,000
>by itself. The designer makes them himself.

It's par for the course. Now you have to pretend you're on that HGTV
show that replicates designer rooms and emulate the light. I'd love
to see a picture of it.

>All told the new kitchen will
>cost $50 grand. Steven is balking big time. It was $24 grand when we first
>went into this but I started researching stuff and found several designers
>I liked. Natch I chose the most expensive ;( The granite counter tops will
>be the most expensive and the only thing Steven and I have agreed on.

Frankly, granite doesn't have to be the most expensive thing. You can
get 8 x 2(ish) foot slabs installed with a full bullnose on one side
for under $200, sometimes for less than $100. You don't have to get
the most expensive piece of granite from the most expensive company.
I'd be more concerned about the cabinets than the granite. Granite
will be passe before too long, so don't spend a fortune on it.

>Sheesh... we'll get the money back if we sell the place ;o)

It all depends on the other houses in your neighborhood. If they have
comparable kitchens, you'll get your money back. If they don't....

> Yeah right, I
>can see my obit "He died with his hand wrapped around a can of peas"
>
>Am I being insane or what? I'm not looking for a gourmet/commercial
>kitchen. Is $50 thousand that unreasonable? What have others spent?
>
$50-60,000 (is this with labor factored in?) will get you a decent
kitchen if you watch the pennies. Of course you could pay more, but
why?

Have you done *anything* to reduce your costs yet? Rethink a few
details, like that light fixture. If you want to put some effort into
it try http://www.faucet.com/decor/home.pl (sinks, faucets,
lighting) and http://www.lampsplus.com/htmls/salebrochure/1.asp
for starters.

Getting back to labor, if you haven't included it.... double that
$50,000 for a figure closer to the true cost of your kitchen - you can
rest assured it will cost even more. It always does. Opening up old
walls is like opening a can of worms. You'll upgrade electrical and
plumbing right off the bat, because it would be foolish not to. You
may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.


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sf wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:24 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
> > wrote:
>
>> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
>> are exorbitant, costwise.
(snippage)
>
> may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
> had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
> a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
> end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.

Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
remodel?

Jill

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...
> sf wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:24 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
>>> are exorbitant, costwise.
> (snippage)
>>
>> may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
>> had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
>> a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
>> end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
>
> Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
> remodel?
>
> Jill

The tiny lens in the CD player will become coated with the typical combo of
kitchen steam/dust/grease and cause the player to fail. That, in turn, will
provide a reason to complain, resulting in yet another pointless 3-million
message newsgroup discussion because suddenly, the entire audio industry
will have switched from black to silver components, and "Gawd!" - Michael
will have to redecorate the whole kitchen to match the new player.

jmcquown wrote:
>
> sf wrote:
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:24 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
> >> are exorbitant, costwise.
> (snippage)
> >
> > may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
> > had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
> > a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
> > end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
>
> Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
> remodel?
>

Wiring and speakers from an existing system is a negligible cost and
background music is nice while you cook. The FSTV is essential and
should have a feed from a nearby PC so you can pull up the recipes
you're working on for reference. If not the FSTV, an used laptop can
make a nice dedicated kitchen PC.

Pete C.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:07:43 -0600, "jmcquown"
> wrote:

>sf wrote:
>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:24 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
>>> are exorbitant, costwise.
>(snippage)
>>
>> may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
>> had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
>> a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
>> end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
>
>Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
>remodel?
>
You'd be surprised at how many kitchens have them. Michael isn't just
replacing his countertops with new Formica, he's spending money like
it grows on trees - gawd forbid it should be some run of the mill
granite, it's the expensive stuff. It's not some $200-300 light
fixture, it's a $4,000 custom made one. The list probably goes on,
but he hasn't divulged it yet. Think Architectural Digest, not House
and Garden.

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<sf> wrote in message ...
> On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:07:43 -0600, "jmcquown"
> > wrote:
>
>>sf wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 19:18:24 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
>>>> are exorbitant, costwise.
>>(snippage)
>>>
>>> may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
>>> had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
>>> a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
>>> end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
>>
>>Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
>>remodel?
>>
> You'd be surprised at how many kitchens have them. Michael isn't just
> replacing his countertops with new Formica, he's spending money like
> it grows on trees - gawd forbid it should be some run of the mill
> granite, it's the expensive stuff. It's not some $200-300 light
> fixture, it's a $4,000 custom made one. The list probably goes on,
> but he hasn't divulged it yet. Think Architectural Digest, not House
> and Garden.

On one wall: A 50,000 piece tile mosaic of Ethel Merman.

Pete C. wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
> > sf wrote:
> > > "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" wrote:
> > >
> > >> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
> > >> are exorbitant, costwise.
> > >
> > > may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
> > > had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
> > > a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
> > > end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
> >
> > Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
> > remodel?
> >
>
> Wiring and speakers from an existing system is a negligible cost and
> background music is nice while you cook. The FSTV is essential and
> should have a feed from a nearby PC so you can pull up the recipes
> you're working on for reference. If not the FSTV, an used laptop can
> make a nice dedicated kitchen PC.

Wiring? What Effin' wiring? Yoose are in the stone age.

And today's PCs are TV capable, don't need any stinkin' expensive
separate flat screen TV in the kitchen. There are wireless speakers
too. Everything you're talking about is available wireless. Only
wiring needed is a an electrical power source. And no one installs
telephone jacks in every room anymore... it won't be too long now and
there won't be land line phones anymore... and in fact cell phone usage
will soon be totally free, as free as listening to the radio.

Sheldon Flintstone

Sheldon wrote:
>
> Pete C. wrote:
> > jmcquown wrote:
> > > sf wrote:
> > > > "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
> > > >> are exorbitant, costwise.
> > > >
> > > > may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
> > > > had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
> > > > a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
> > > > end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
> > >
> > > Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
> > > remodel?
> > >
> >
> > Wiring and speakers from an existing system is a negligible cost and
> > background music is nice while you cook. The FSTV is essential and
> > should have a feed from a nearby PC so you can pull up the recipes
> > you're working on for reference. If not the FSTV, an used laptop can
> > make a nice dedicated kitchen PC.
>
> Wiring? What Effin' wiring? Yoose are in the stone age.
>
> And today's PCs are TV capable, don't need any stinkin' expensive
> separate flat screen TV in the kitchen. There are wireless speakers
> too. Everything you're talking about is available wireless. Only
> wiring needed is a an electrical power source. And no one installs
> telephone jacks in every room anymore... it won't be too long now and
> there won't be land line phones anymore... and in fact cell phone usage
> will soon be totally free, as free as listening to the radio.
>
> Sheldon Flintstone

Nearly all wireless speakers suck donkey dong. I spent about 15 years in
the professional audio arena and would never consider any of the
commonly available wireless speakers to be any better than a McDonald's
drive through intercom.

Pete C.

said...

>>> may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
>>> had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
>>> a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
>>> end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
>>
>>Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a
kitchen
>>remodel?
>>
> You'd be surprised at how many kitchens have them.

That's what the original owners did for the 1969 renovation. They put
speakers on the top mantle (up by the ceiling) which are fed from the
living room sound system. In the corner nook at the end of the counter
sits a 19" old fashioned TV nicely tucked in. with the cookbooks, etc.


> Michael isn't just
> replacing his countertops with new Formica, he's spending money like
> it grows on trees - gawd forbid it should be some run of the mill
> granite, it's the expensive stuff.

I'd prefer the Cambria quartz over granite. Granite needs to be treated,
and being porous cn absorb foods, harboring bacteria and stain. I can't
vouch for pricing since I just read up on each after this thread began.



I think that with wireless routers, wiring for internet/computing isn't
necessary but a cable or dish feed is a must.


One other item I'd certainly reccommend is a "hidden" "industrial-
strength" ventilation system over the stove (if ovens are below the stove
or elsewhere). with a heavy duty made-to-fit aluminum hood (with dome
lights on each side of the exhausts, for great stove "light up those pots
while cooking" lighting!), hidig the system as much as possible behind
wood, copper, stone or other interesting facade.

Mine is a two speed, two exhaust system that vents up through the roof
and out through one of those globes with the gills (??) around it.

Andy

On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 10:38:26 -0600, Andy <q> wrote:

>I'd prefer the Cambria quartz over granite. Granite needs to be treated,
>and being porous cn absorb foods, harboring bacteria and stain. I can't
>vouch for pricing since I just read up on each after this thread began.
>
I like quartz too, but not for that reason.
>
>
>I think that with wireless routers, wiring for internet/computing isn't
>necessary but a cable or dish feed is a must.
>
I live in an OLD house and wireless isn't very effective here (lath
and plaster) on any floor the router isn't, so we put in wiring.
>
>One other item I'd certainly reccommend is a "hidden" "industrial-
>strength" ventilation system over the stove (if ovens are below the stove
>or elsewhere). with a heavy duty made-to-fit aluminum hood (with dome
>lights on each side of the exhausts, for great stove "light up those pots
>while cooking" lighting!), hidig the system as much as possible behind
>wood, copper, stone or other interesting facade.
>
Hidden? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I have a regular
hood - but we have cabinets over the stove. We installed a
Vent-A-Hood, with only two fans and it works like a charm. When we
moved into this house, there was an exhaust fan in the ceiling in
front of the wall ovens (self cleaning even 30 years ago). Is that
what you mean?

>Mine is a two speed, two exhaust system that vents up through the roof
>and out through one of those globes with the gills (??) around it.

Got ya. It's just one of those whirly-gig things that goes on an
exhaust or chimney to prevent back flow in a windy situation. But I'm
still not sure what brand/type of ventilation you're talking about.
Link please?




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said...

> Hidden? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I have a regular
> hood - but we have cabinets over the stove. We installed a
> Vent-A-Hood, with only two fans and it works like a charm. When we
> moved into this house, there was an exhaust fan in the ceiling in
> front of the wall ovens (self cleaning even 30 years ago). Is that
> what you mean?


Here are two pictures of my electric bbq "pit" from straight on and from
another view showing the vent hood, "exposed."

If you were planning a center cooking station and needed a free-hanging
vent system, it could be enclosed ("hidden") with a facade from just
below the bottom of the hood lip up to the ceiling, that you could hang
stuff from. Infinitely nicer than looking at a hunk of vent hood hanging
from the ceiling by an exhaust tube.

Or NOT.

Andy

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:29:08 -0600, Andy <q> wrote:
>

>Here are two pictures of my electric bbq "pit" from straight on and from
>another view showing the vent hood, "exposed."

>If you were planning a center cooking station and needed a free-hanging
>vent system, it could be enclosed ("hidden") with a facade from just
>below the bottom of the hood lip up to the ceiling, that you could hang
>stuff from. Infinitely nicer than looking at a hunk of vent hood hanging
>from the ceiling by an exhaust tube.
>
>Or NOT.
>
>Andy

What happened to your photos? In any case, I think I get the picture
now. http://tinylink.com/?wTS1vf7dJw Cooking islands are not the
first thing that comes to mind when I think "kitchen".


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said...

> What happened to your photos?


sf,

I just made a contact sheet with no borders or margins. They do look a
little odd, I admit.

In any case, I think I get the picture
> now. http://tinylink.com/?wTS1vf7dJw

That's one UGLY kitchen. I'd definitely hide the vent hood in a facade
(maybe a few stairsteps to the ceiling) to display bric-a-brac. That's a
lot of wasted air. The side utensil hanging rods are a good idea but they
should be just hidden behind the facade so it looks like they're hanging
in thin air. Well that's just my taste anyway.


> Cooking islands are not the
> first thing that comes to mind when I think "kitchen".

If I had a bigger kitchen I'd have one. On the food show Epicurious with
Mike Lomonoco, he has the large 4-burner cooktop on one end of his island
which let's him cook on it from three sides, so pots and pans on burners
never become obstacles. That's brilliant design, imho.

Andy

On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:50:03 -0600, Andy <q> wrote:

> Epicurious with Mike Lomonoco

Is this foodtv? If so, I've managed to completely miss it... I've
actually blundered into TWO whole (well, not whole - part of the show)
Nigellas, but no Epicurious that I know of.




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On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 16:42:45 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan"
> wrote:

>I
>want it the way I want it. Granite is what I want on the countertops.
>Period. No, I don't want or like formica. If you really want to turn me
>loose I'll do it Basically I'd like to rebuild the entire house but take
>parts of this one with me

Join the club. We all want our dream kitchens.


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said...

> On Tue, 28 Nov 2006 09:50:03 -0600, Andy <q> wrote:
>
>> Epicurious with Mike Lomonoco
>
> Is this foodtv? If so, I've managed to completely miss it... I've
> actually blundered into TWO whole (well, not whole - part of the show)
> Nigellas, but no Epicurious that I know of.


sf,

His show is on the Travel Channel.

He's a typically "high-strung for time" TV chef but he was executive chef
at "Windows on the World" atop one of the World Trade Center's "twin
towers," which speaks volumes, imho.

Andy

On 27 Nov 2006 07:49:23 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>
>Pete C. wrote:
>> jmcquown wrote:
>> > sf wrote:
>> > > "Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan" wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> OMG ... The cost is staggering. The cabinets and backsplash I want
>> > >> are exorbitant, costwise.
>> > >
>> > > may end up adding sound proofing or a sound system (I'd make sure I
>> > > had the kitchen wired for computer and cable). A flat screened TV is
>> > > a must so there goes another $1500. There are lots of things you'll
>> > > end up doing that you're not even considering at this point.
>> >
>> > Um... why is a sound system and a flat screened TV necessary to a kitchen
>> > remodel?
>> >
>>
>> Wiring and speakers from an existing system is a negligible cost and
>> background music is nice while you cook. The FSTV is essential and
>> should have a feed from a nearby PC so you can pull up the recipes
>> you're working on for reference. If not the FSTV, an used laptop can
>> make a nice dedicated kitchen PC.
>
>Wiring? What Effin' wiring? Yoose are in the stone age.
>
>And today's PCs are TV capable, don't need any stinkin' expensive
>separate flat screen TV in the kitchen. There are wireless speakers
>too. Everything you're talking about is available wireless. Only
>wiring needed is a an electrical power source. And no one installs
>telephone jacks in every room anymore... it won't be too long now and
>there won't be land line phones anymore... and in fact cell phone usage
>will soon be totally free, as free as listening to the radio.
>
I was saying that the signal doesn't carry well in my house, that's
how the topic of wiring came up. A good signal is hard wired in my
house, now wireless. I *know* because I have had both situations. I
began with wireless and ended up wired.

sf
<who doesn't have a land line or even a pretend one like vonage or
comcast's version>


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