<sf> wrote
> Next time, skip the roux and make a slurry of flour and water. Add it
> to the stock and/or drippings using a whisk and cook it on low for 20
> minutes or so.

Yep! After struggling with lumpy gravy because I thought I *had* to
add the flour to the hot drippings in order to cook it, I tried the slurry
and my gravy turned out perfect.

>I always add a few drops of Lea and Perrins at the
> end, so I have never have a problem with gravy that's too light
> colored. If you don't like Worcestershire (I think it finishes off
> gravy perfectly), you can add a drop or two of Kitchen Bouquet.
>

I love the deep color and roasted flavor a high initial roasting
temp gives my gravy.

On 2006-12-26, sf <sf> wrote:

> minutes or so. I always add a few drops of Lea and Perrins...

urk!

> gravy perfectly), you can add a drop or two of Kitchen Bouquet.

Drat. I thought this was my chance to chastise you severely about the
head and shoulders. Foiled again!

nb

"Goomba38" > wrote in message
. ..
> cybercat wrote:
>
>> Not EVEN. I put my turkey in at 425 for 15 minutes with a cup of water in
>> the
>> roaster, then turned it down to 350 for two hours and 325 for the
>> remaining hour
>>
> I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
> "roast"??

To keep the good drippings from burning. We have covered this before. Please
try to keep up.

And, no, I am not lowering the initial temperature, because the 15 minutes I
cook my poultry at 450 produces the deep brown skin and drippings/gravy I
want and ensures moist meat. Without adding water, the fats burn, the
kitchen smokes up and the drippings are ruined.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:08:40 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>sf wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:51:21 -0800, LurfysMa >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
>>> sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
>>> superb, so I tried it.
>>
>> I use potato water too, it's fine.
>>
>Potato water added to the liquid when that is added to gravy making is
>one thing and it is commonly done....but didn't this person brown the
>peels or something?

I don't think so. The unusual part was he threw potato peelings into
the stock he was making.

>That sounds pretty disgusting to me.

I don't think he browned or roasted anything except the bird. I'm
unclear about how brown the roux got (if it was browned). Personally,
I don't brown roux unless I'm making gumbo and I never brown naked
flour because I can't stand the smell.

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"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:09:41 -0500, Goomba38 >
> wrote:
>
>>Dawn wrote:
>>
>>> How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
>>> have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
>>> from it.
>>>
>>> Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
>>> that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
>>> blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
>>> mingles in the drippings.
>>>
>>
>>Why use butter at all for turkey gravy?? That's what the drippings are
>>supposed to be for.
>
> Because I didn't have enough fat to cook the flour. It got dried out.


Next time drizzle some olive oil over the bird and once the browning
is going well and the juices are reduced, toss a cup or two of water
in. Keeps it from burning. Then you take the bird out, put the pan
on the stove burner on medium, and pour on a bit of water, scraping
the browned bits off the pan. (Deglazing.) THIS forms the basis of
your gravy. You remove all but about 1/4 of the fat (skim or refrigerate
then slice i t off), bring it to a boil, and add a a flour/water mixture
slowly while stirring. Use 1 part flour and 4 parts cold water, and
stir or shake it vigorously to blend it. Then add it slowly to the
drippings, and boil for 304 minutes. If it gets too thick add water
or stock.

"cybercat" > wrote in message
...
>
> "LurfysMa" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:09:41 -0500, Goomba38 >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Dawn wrote:
>>>
>>>> How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
>>>> have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
>>>> from it.
>>>>
>>>> Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
>>>> that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
>>>> blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
>>>> mingles in the drippings.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Why use butter at all for turkey gravy?? That's what the drippings are
>>>supposed to be for.
>>
>> Because I didn't have enough fat to cook the flour. It got dried out.
>
>
> Next time drizzle some olive oil over the bird and once the browning
> is going well and the juices are reduced, toss a cup or two of water
> in. Keeps it from burning. Then you take the bird out, put the pan
> on the stove burner on medium, and pour on a bit of water, scraping
> the browned bits off the pan. (Deglazing.) THIS forms the basis of
> your gravy. You remove all but about 1/4 of the fat (skim or refrigerate
> then slice i t off), bring it to a boil, and add a a flour/water mixture
> slowly while stirring. Use 1 part flour and 4 parts cold water, and
> stir or shake it vigorously to blend it. Then add it slowly to the
> drippings, and boil for 304 minutes. If it gets too thick add water
> or stock.
>

I forgot to say, remove bits of spices/skin/detritus with a fine slotted
spoon or strainer after you remove most of the fat.

The method above will give you amazing gravy every single time.

sf wrote:

>> I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
>> "roast"??
>
> What's the problem? The roast should be on a rack, so the water won't
> be touching it.
>
Yeah, but won't it set up a steam bath that keeps the roasting meat from
crisping and browning? The word "roast" to me implies a dry heat. What
is the purpose of the liquid?

<sf> wrote in message ...
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:01:23 -0500, Goomba38 >
> wrote:
>
>>cybercat wrote:
>>
>>> Not EVEN. I put my turkey in at 425 for 15 minutes with a cup of water
>>> in
>>> the
>>> roaster, then turned it down to 350 for two hours and 325 for the
>>> remaining
>>> hour
>>>
>>I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
>>"roast"??
>
> What's the problem? The roast should be on a rack, so the water won't
> be touching it.
>

Actually, I omitted the rack this time and it was still fine. The dark meat
on the underside of the bird was particularly fine.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 17:29:04 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>sf wrote:
>
>>> I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
>>> "roast"??
>>
>> What's the problem? The roast should be on a rack, so the water won't
>> be touching it.
>>
>Yeah, but won't it set up a steam bath that keeps the roasting meat from
>crisping and browning? The word "roast" to me implies a dry heat. What
>is the purpose of the liquid?

Surprisingly, it's not a steam bath and it doesn't ruin a roast. You
knew that steam (in moderation) is the secret to crusty bread, didn't
cha?

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On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 17:29:04 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>sf wrote:
>
>>> I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
>>> "roast"??
>>
>> What's the problem? The roast should be on a rack, so the water won't
>> be touching it.
>>
>Yeah, but won't it set up a steam bath that keeps the roasting meat from
>crisping and browning? The word "roast" to me implies a dry heat. What
>is the purpose of the liquid?

No, it doesn't set up a steam bath at all. The temperature is usually
high enough in the oven so that by the time the water has all boiled
away or evaporated, the bird is producing it's own juice.

The purpose of the liquid is to keep the initial juices from burning.
It works quite well..and you aren't adding enough water to offset the
dry heat of roasting. It is only for the initial period of roasting..

Christine

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 16:09:55 -0600, notbob > wrote:

>On 2006-12-26, sf <sf> wrote:
>
>> minutes or so. I always add a few drops of Lea and Perrins...
>
>urk!
>
What just a cotton pickin' minute, buster. Have you ever tried the
original Lea and Perrins *in moderation*? A couple of drops will go a
long way, so if you were in the "add a quarter cup" camp - you got
what you deserved. If you messed around with other brands or the
blond L&P, I'll agree it's pretty darned awful.

>> gravy perfectly), you can add a drop or two of Kitchen Bouquet.
>
>Drat. I thought this was my chance to chastise you severely about the
>head and shoulders. Foiled again!
>
<grin> Kitchen Bouquet saves the day!

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sf wrote:
>
> So, is allowing it to sit is the secret to perfectly cooked white and
> dark meat? What temp did you bring it out at and which one did you
> check... light or dark?

Temperature? Good question. I have never had luck with that
method. I use the time, temperature and weight chart. It was a 12
1/2 pound bird, 6 1/2 hours at 325. I pulled on the leg and it
started to come off. Letting it sit tented before cutting into
it makes carving much easier.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:00:23 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>Temperature? Good question. I have never had luck with that
>method. I use the time, temperature and weight chart. It was a 12
>1/2 pound bird, 6 1/2 hours at 325. I pulled on the leg and it
>started to come off. Letting it sit tented before cutting into
>it makes carving much easier.

That's over 30 minutes a pound. Are you sure it was a 21 1/2 pounder?

--
Zilbandy

On 2006-12-26, sf <sf> wrote:

> what you deserved. If you messed around with other brands or the
> blond L&P, I'll agree it's pretty darned awful.

One time only, French's worchestershire sauce. Yuk. Never again.
It's classic L&P or nothing.

nb

Randy wrote:
> "Vickie in Utah" > wrote:
> >LurfysMa wrote:
> >> On 26 Dec 2006 01:04:39 -0800, "ntantiques" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >LurfysMa wrote:
> >> >> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> >> >> making turley gravy.
> >> >>
> >> >> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> >> >> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
> >> >
> >> >Allspice and basil? Don't think I'd ever be tempted to include or
> >> >combine either of these strong flavors in a traditional turkey gravy.
> >> >Thyme or sage maybe, but not allspice and/or basil.
> >>
> >> Several recipes called for basil and a couple of people here
> >> recommended allspice so I tried it. I guess next time I'll go a lot
> >> simpler and then experiment gradually.
> >>
> >> >Potato peelings? What did you feel they would add to the flavor of
> >> >your stock?
> >>
> >> I dunno. I always heard that most of the flavor and vitamins are in or
> >> just under the skin of vegetables and they were sitting right there.
> >>
> >> >You were good to go with onion and carrot (I would have
> >> >added some celery w/tops & Italian parsley and one large Bay Leaf),
> >> >along with the spare turkey parts and black peppercorns. To end up
> >> >with 4 cups of stock, add a good 6 cups of water to the pot with all of
> >> >the parts. Simmer uncovered for a while, skimming any gunky foam, then
> >> >simmer, covered, for a couple of hours and strain before using.
> >>
> >> There was really never much of any scum or gunky foam to skim. I was
> >> surprised by that.
> >>
> >> >Rather than tossing in "used potato water" to bring your yield to 4C,
> >> >better to plan ahead or add good quality canned chicken stock if you
> >> >grossly miscalculate and come up short. I cook potatoes in "seriously
> >> >salted" water and you may have inadvertantly oversalted your stock by
> >> >diluting it by half with the potato water - not to mention diluting the
> >> >flavor essence of the stock.
> >>
> >> The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
> >> sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
> >> superb, so I tried it.
> >
> >My Mother always used the potato water in her gravy and it was
> >fantastic. I do it sometimes.
> >>
> >> >I wait to add salt until I've actually made the gravy and use far less
> >> >than your 1-2 tsp for 4C of gravy. Oversalting doesn't always just
> >> >make a dish taste salty - it can also kick the balance of other flavors
> >> >silly, intensifying the flavors of ingredients in an unpleasant way.
> >>
> >> That's just what I did. No salt until the very end, then as little as
> >> possible. None of us like a lot of salt.
> >>
> >> >I've used wine periodically in making turkey gravy to deglaze the
> >> >roasting pan - a mellow red - occasionally Marsala or Madeira, but
> >> >never in the stock itself.
> >>
> >> I wouldn't have used wine at all, except that several people here
> >> praised it and I had a bottle of chianti open...
> >>
> >> >Am thinking you may have burned your flour - and overcooked flour is
> >> >truly nasty. You really don't want the fat/flour mixture to actually be
> >> >brown - when it moves from pasty to a pale golden shade, it's time to
> >> >add liquid.
> >>
> >> I think that's a good guess. The recipe I was working from said to
> >> hear 6 Tbsp of fat on high heat, then whisk in the flour until golden
> >> brown. I think my high heat may have been too high and the fat was not
> >> right or maybe there was too much flour as it turned into a very
> >> thick, almost dry, paste. I quickly added more fat and then liquid,
> >> but it might have burned.
> >>
> >> >The milk solids in the butter you added may also have burned.
> >>
> >> The butter wasn't added until a lot later when everything was very
> >> liquid.
> >>
> >> >Sounds like that part of things got complicated for you.
> >> >10-12T for just 4C of gravy is a lot of fat. Something was very "off"
> >> >here.
> >>
> >> I agree. I need more practice.
> >>
> >> >I gave up on that whole pain in the keester part of gravy making
> >> >years ago and keep Wondra flour on hand. No muss, no fuss, no lumps -
> >> >perfect gravy everytime. Google for Wondra gravy recipes and you'll be
> >> >a star.
> >>
> >> I have used Wondra before and it is much easier, but I wanted to be a
> >> "real" gravy maker! ;-)
> >>
> >> >Best of luck - am sure the leftovers will be great!
> >>
> >> One large turkey casserole comong up.
> >>
> >Did you make sure that the kidneys were taken out of the turkey? If not
> >they can make the drippings quite bitter. I also think the seasonings
> >were a bit over the top, especially the bay leaves.
> >Vickie
>
> I have never seen kidneys included with a turkey or any foul for that matter.
>
> Randy

The kidneys are not in with the rest of the giblets. If they have not
been removed, they are on both sides of the back bone, right behind the
"pope's nose". They are red and you pull them out with you fingers. I
have seen many of them in my many many years.
Vickie

Zilbandy wrote:
>
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:00:23 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
> >Temperature? Good question. I have never had luck with that
> >method. I use the time, temperature and weight chart. It was a 12
> >1/2 pound bird, 6 1/2 hours at 325. I pulled on the leg and it
> >started to come off. Letting it sit tented before cutting into
> >it makes carving much easier.
>
> That's over 30 minutes a pound. Are you sure it was a 21 1/2 pounder?

Oops sorry..... 6 hours. I put it in at 11:15, pulled it out at
5:15. It was 12.7 lb. I don't know how much damage another 1/2
hour would have done. I thought it was perfect. The thigh meat
was cooked and breast meat was nice and juicy. After sitting for
close 45 minutes it carved beautifully.

On Fri, 29 Dec 2006 00:08:45 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>
>Zilbandy wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:00:23 -0500, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Temperature? Good question. I have never had luck with that
>> >method. I use the time, temperature and weight chart. It was a 12
>> >1/2 pound bird, 6 1/2 hours at 325. I pulled on the leg and it
>> >started to come off. Letting it sit tented before cutting into
>> >it makes carving much easier.
>>
>> That's over 30 minutes a pound. Are you sure it was a 21 1/2 pounder?
>
>Oops sorry..... 6 hours. I put it in at 11:15, pulled it out at
>5:15. It was 12.7 lb. I don't know how much damage another 1/2
>hour would have done. I thought it was perfect. The thigh meat
>was cooked and breast meat was nice and juicy. After sitting for
>close 45 minutes it carved beautifully.

Wow, 6 hours sounded like you should have had a dry bird - but it was
GREAT! Glad it turned out so well.



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Dave Smith wrote on 28 Dec 2006 in rec.food.cooking

>
> Zilbandy wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 18:00:23 -0500, Dave Smith
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >Temperature? Good question. I have never had luck with that
> > >method. I use the time, temperature and weight chart. It was a 12
> > >1/2 pound bird, 6 1/2 hours at 325. I pulled on the leg and it
> > >started to come off. Letting it sit tented before cutting into
> > >it makes carving much easier.
> >
> > That's over 30 minutes a pound. Are you sure it was a 21 1/2 pounder?
>
> Oops sorry..... 6 hours. I put it in at 11:15, pulled it out at
> 5:15. It was 12.7 lb. I don't know how much damage another 1/2
> hour would have done. I thought it was perfect. The thigh meat
> was cooked and breast meat was nice and juicy. After sitting for
> close 45 minutes it carved beautifully.
>

I cooked a 10-ish lb bird (4.7kg). I spatchcocked it and cooked it in a
convection oven for 2 hours at 375F. Turned out a little over cooked (by
about 15 minutes)...I did a small side pan of dressing at the same time.
As I recieved offers to dine with others (daughter) for xmas...I mostly
used the turkey meat for snacking on my yule-time days off this year, as
toasted turkey and tomato sandwhiches with miracle whip is my secret
addiction. I regret feeling too lazy to make gravy this year but I
managed to purchase some from a upscale restaurant (1 litre). So I got 1
traditional turkey dinner almost 'my way' this year. My 'new' job takes a
lot outa me and I just couldn't bring my self to make the extra effort
(just for me) to make gravy, as I worked xmas eve and boxing day.

My daughter is a fine cook, but our tastes in stuffing differ. So I
needed to make turkey and stuffing MY way or the season wouldn't feel
right to me. Plus I like having turkey leftovers...The meals you can make
from the leftovers are also a required part of the season that makes it
xmas or even New Years.

I am going to make a turkey wild rice based soup with the frame and the
leftover turkey meat. I don't really have a recipe...but wild rice,
carrot, celery, onion, barley, mushrooms and sour cream will play a large
part in the soup. I also 'found' some frozen dill in the freezer, dill
and sour cream go well together in soups.

Yesterday I made a large batch of Nancy's tortillia soup, I was going to
make the zuppa recipe posted recently...but the close grocery store
didn't have the Italian Sausages I'd of used. And I don't like driving
and shopping much at this time of year... the crowds are too crazy. I
froze 15 3 cup portions of the soup for use as work lunch meals in the
next month or so. Perphaps in the 2nd week of January I'll get the zuppa
made.

I'm doing a small ham for New Year's Day...It's a Family
Tradition...Baked Ham and Potato Salad....(I think I see More Soup in my
future). I think I got the curried potato salad recipe from
penzeys...That's the only change in the last 20 years to the menu.