First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
making turley gravy.

The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.

I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
could do better.

When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.

At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.

I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
hours.

I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.

I strained the liquid into a pyrex yielding about 2 cups. I didn't
taste it at this point. I probably should have. I let it sit. A little
fat came to the top -- about 1/2 cup, which I spooned off.

About this time, the turkey came out of the over. We set it on a
cutting board. I poured the drippings into a pyrex bowl. I got a
little less than a cup of liquid. This always happens. Very little
liquid. My wife started with a cup or two of water in the bottom of
the pan. The bird is on a rack and covered with foil. It always comes
out tasting great, but not much liquid.

Now comes what may have been mistake #2. The potatoes had just
finished cooking and we had a boel of potato water. I added that to
the 2 cups of stock making the 4 cups that I would need. I poured all
of this into the roasting pan and put it over 2 burners on medium to
deglaze.

In the meantime, I heated 5-6 Tbsp of fat in the skillet and started
whiking in the 5-6 Tbsp of flour previously measured out. This quickly
became a very dry paste, so I kept adding more fat until I ran out
than added butter. I probably added 10-12 Tbsp of fat altogether. I
heated this until the flour turned brown.

Meanwhile, I was stirring and scraping the roasting pan until all of
the bits were loosened.

I then strained the liquid from the roasting pan into the skillet with
the flour and fat. This quickly became a smooth gravy that was a
little too thin.

It was at this point that I tasted it. It had a very strong bite to
it. I first added a little salt (1-2 tsp at a time). This helped until
I was worried that it was getting too salty.

I ended up adding some milk and even cream, which made it less harsh,
but still not what I hoped for.

Any obvious errors?

Thanks



--

"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
news
> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> making turley gravy.
>
> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>
> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
> could do better.
>
> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>
> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>
Lufysma, I don't think potato would add anything to gravy,though I've never
tried that.
>
> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
> hours.
>
Red wine, as well isn't a good idea. It fits with veal or beef, but not
fowl.
>
> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>
> I strained the liquid into a pyrex yielding about 2 cups. I didn't
> taste it at this point. I probably should have. I let it sit. A little
> fat came to the top -- about 1/2 cup, which I spooned off.
>
> About this time, the turkey came out of the over. We set it on a
> cutting board. I poured the drippings into a pyrex bowl. I got a
> little less than a cup of liquid.
>
Depending on the size of the bird, this is about what you get
>
> liquid. My wife started with a cup or two of water in the bottom of
> the pan. The bird is on a rack and covered with foil. It always comes
> out tasting great, but not much liquid.
>
> Now comes what may have been mistake #2. The potatoes had just
> finished cooking and we had a boel of potato water. I added that to
> the 2 cups of stock making the 4 cups that I would need. I poured all
> of this into the roasting pan and put it over 2 burners on medium to
> deglaze.
>
Again, I would keep the potato out.
>
> In the meantime, I heated 5-6 Tbsp of fat in the skillet and started
> whiking in the 5-6 Tbsp of flour previously measured out. This quickly
> became a very dry paste, so I kept adding more fat until I ran out
> than added butter. I probably added 10-12 Tbsp of fat altogether. I
> heated this until the flour turned brown.
>
>To make roux, which is what you are doing, use 1 tbsp oil to 1 tbsp of
>flour, and very >gently cook. You don't have to brown, especially with
>fowl. You want to cook the flour >so you don't have flower taste. After
>many years, I started making roux in the microwave >with olive oil. It
>works great. You need 1 1/2 tbsp flour per one cup of gravy. When you >>get
>your stock to the point where you can thicken you add the roux, simmer, and
>bring it >all together. Meanwhile, I was stirring and scraping the roasting
>pan until all of
>the bits were loosened. I then strained the liquid from the roasting pan
>into the skillet >with
>the flour and fat. This quickly became a smooth gravy that was a
>little too thin.

>It was at this point that I tasted it. It had a very strong bite to
>it. I first added a little salt (1-2 tsp at a time). This helped until
>I was worried that it was getting too salty.
> I ended up adding some milk and even cream, which made it less harsh,
> but still not what I hoped for.
>
> Any obvious errors?
>
> Thanks
>
>
Lufysma, sorry for your experience on this most important "turkey day".
Always, always, make a batch of stock with the leftover turkey for the next
adventure with turkey. Now, to make life easier next time brown in the oven
all the leftover turkey carcass with a whole onion, a carrot, and a hunk of
celery at 350 for about an hour. After that, add above and water to a
saucepan and cook very slowly with only a slight ebulation for several
hours. I usually do this for about five hours. Strain, then reduce to the
taste that seem right, and freeze that for the next turkey day.
A separator funnel is invaluable for this.I would strongly suggest investing
in a separator funnel to remove fat. I couldn't live without one. Added
chicken stock, in case the above effort doesn't produce a rich stock helps a
lot for a rich gravy.
> -
>
Kent-

In article >,
LurfysMa > wrote:

> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> making turley gravy.

We don't make stock for turkey gravy. We make it for the stuffing before
the turkey is cooked. We use the fat and drippings that come off of the
turkey and perhaps, stuffing, for the gravy. There are many ways to
convert the fat and drippings, or just drippings to make the gravy. We
use flour shaken in water, salt and pepper. That's after we add a quart
or more of water to the stuff in the bottom of the roasting pan.
I generally add the fond and fat to a more easily managed smaller pot to
make the gravy and work on cleaning the roasting pan while the much
smaller pot heats up.

> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.

From what you posted, I can't identify the bitter part.

> Any obvious errors?

There are many ingredients you used that I wouldn't, but there is
nothing that I can identify that would make the gravy bitter. Bitter
usually means something is burned.

leo

--
<http://web0.greatbasin.net/~leo/>

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:14:50 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:

>
>"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
>news
>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>> making turley gravy.
>>
>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>>
>> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
>> could do better.
>>
>> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
>> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
>> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
>> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>>
>> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
>> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
>> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
>> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>>
>Lufysma, I don't think potato would add anything to gravy,though I've never
>tried that.
>>
>> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
>> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
>> hours.
>>
>Red wine, as well isn't a good idea. It fits with veal or beef, but not
>fowl.
>>
>> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
>> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>>

I don't think the potato skins had anything to do with your problem.
You asked for glaring mistakes and my eye went straight to those 3 bay
leaves. That may be your problem. 1/2 or one small leaf at the most
would have been enough. Too much bay makes food taste like medicine.
The rest of the seasonings sounded odd to me, but I don't think they
would make your gravy bitter unless the wine contributed to it
somehow. Was it drinkable?

<snip>
>>
>> Any obvious errors?
>>
>> Thanks

Did you include the liver with those giblets? Some people think liver
makes gravy taste bitter.

--
See return address to reply by email

LurfysMa wrote:
> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> making turley gravy.
>
> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>
> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
> could do better.
>
> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>
> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>
> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
> hours.
>
> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>
> I strained the liquid into a pyrex yielding about 2 cups. I didn't
> taste it at this point. I probably should have. I let it sit. A little
> fat came to the top -- about 1/2 cup, which I spooned off.
>
> About this time, the turkey came out of the over. We set it on a
> cutting board. I poured the drippings into a pyrex bowl. I got a
> little less than a cup of liquid. This always happens. Very little
> liquid. My wife started with a cup or two of water in the bottom of
> the pan. The bird is on a rack and covered with foil. It always comes
> out tasting great, but not much liquid.
>
> Now comes what may have been mistake #2. The potatoes had just
> finished cooking and we had a boel of potato water. I added that to
> the 2 cups of stock making the 4 cups that I would need. I poured all
> of this into the roasting pan and put it over 2 burners on medium to
> deglaze.
>
> In the meantime, I heated 5-6 Tbsp of fat in the skillet and started
> whiking in the 5-6 Tbsp of flour previously measured out. This quickly
> became a very dry paste, so I kept adding more fat until I ran out
> than added butter. I probably added 10-12 Tbsp of fat altogether. I
> heated this until the flour turned brown.
>
> Meanwhile, I was stirring and scraping the roasting pan until all of
> the bits were loosened.
>
> I then strained the liquid from the roasting pan into the skillet with
> the flour and fat. This quickly became a smooth gravy that was a
> little too thin.
>
> It was at this point that I tasted it. It had a very strong bite to
> it. I first added a little salt (1-2 tsp at a time). This helped until
> I was worried that it was getting too salty.
>
> I ended up adding some milk and even cream, which made it less harsh,
> but still not what I hoped for.
>
> Any obvious errors?
>
> Thanks

Allspice and basil? Don't think I'd ever be tempted to include or
combine either of these strong flavors in a traditional turkey gravy.
Thyme or sage maybe, but not allspice and/or basil.

Potato peelings? What did you feel they would add to the flavor of
your stock? You were good to go with onion and carrot (I would have
added some celery w/tops & Italian parsley and one large Bay Leaf),
along with the spare turkey parts and black peppercorns. To end up
with 4 cups of stock, add a good 6 cups of water to the pot with all of
the parts. Simmer uncovered for a while, skimming any gunky foam, then
simmer, covered, for a couple of hours and strain before using.

Rather than tossing in "used potato water" to bring your yield to 4C,
better to plan ahead or add good quality canned chicken stock if you
grossly miscalculate and come up short. I cook potatoes in "seriously
salted" water and you may have inadvertantly oversalted your stock by
diluting it by half with the potato water - not to mention diluting the
flavor essence of the stock.

I wait to add salt until I've actually made the gravy and use far less
than your 1-2 tsp for 4C of gravy. Oversalting doesn't always just
make a dish taste salty - it can also kick the balance of other flavors
silly, intensifying the flavors of ingredients in an unpleasant way.

I've used wine periodically in making turkey gravy to deglaze the
roasting pan - a mellow red - occasionally Marsala or Madeira, but
never in the stock itself.

Am thinking you may have burned your flour - and overcooked flour is
truly nasty. You really don't want the fat/flour mixture to actually be
brown - when it moves from pasty to a pale golden shade, it's time to
add liquid. The milk solids in the butter you added may also have
burned. Sounds like that part of things got complicated for you.
10-12T for just 4C of gravy is a lot of fat. Something was very "off"
here. I gave up on that whole pain in the keester part of gravy making
years ago and keep Wondra flour on hand. No muss, no fuss, no lumps -
perfect gravy everytime. Google for Wondra gravy recipes and you'll be
a star.

Best of luck - am sure the leftovers will be great!

Nancy T

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:

>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:14:50 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
>>news
>>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>>> making turley gravy.
>>>
>>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>>>
>>> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
>>> could do better.
>>>
>>> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
>>> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
>>> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
>>> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>>>
>>> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
>>> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
>>> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
>>> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>>>
>>Lufysma, I don't think potato would add anything to gravy,though I've never
>>tried that.
>>>
>>> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
>>> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
>>> hours.
>>>
>>Red wine, as well isn't a good idea. It fits with veal or beef, but not
>>fowl.
>>>
>>> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
>>> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>>>
>
>I don't think the potato skins had anything to do with your problem.
>You asked for glaring mistakes and my eye went straight to those 3 bay
>leaves. That may be your problem. 1/2 or one small leaf at the most
>would have been enough. Too much bay makes food taste like medicine.

It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
I;m pretty sure it wasn't.

>The rest of the seasonings sounded odd to me, but I don't think they
>would make your gravy bitter unless the wine contributed to it
>somehow. Was it drinkable?

Which ones in particular? All of them were recommended by multiple
people here and/or found in several recipes.

><snip>
>>>
>>> Any obvious errors?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>
>Did you include the liver with those giblets? Some people think liver
>makes gravy taste bitter.

Yes, I did. I know some people say not to, but others say it's good. I
guess I'll try leaving it out next time.

--

On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:29:13 -0800, Leonard Blaisdell
> wrote:

>In article >,
> LurfysMa > wrote:
>
>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>> making turley gravy.
>
>We don't make stock for turkey gravy. We make it for the stuffing before
>the turkey is cooked. We use the fat and drippings that come off of the
>turkey and perhaps, stuffing, for the gravy. There are many ways to
>convert the fat and drippings, or just drippings to make the gravy. We
>use flour shaken in water, salt and pepper. That's after we add a quart
>or more of water to the stuff in the bottom of the roasting pan.
>I generally add the fond and fat to a more easily managed smaller pot to
>make the gravy and work on cleaning the roasting pan while the much
>smaller pot heats up.
>
>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>
>From what you posted, I can't identify the bitter part.
>
>> Any obvious errors?
>
>There are many ingredients you used that I wouldn't, but there is
>nothing that I can identify that would make the gravy bitter. Bitter
>usually means something is burned.

When I said bitter, I actually thought about saying burned, but the
taste wasn't exactly burned. It was hard to describe. It had an
unpleasant bite.

The turkey itself was definitely not burned, but the fond was very
dark. Not quite black. Should I have not scraped up all of that?

We have a gas stove and even the lowest setting is too hot. A couple
of times the stock got simmering a little too fast -- almost a slow
boil -- and I had to turn it down. I did feel something slightly stuck
to the bottom of the saucepan, but it came up easily. The stock never
got even close to dry and never smelled burned.

--

On 26 Dec 2006 01:04:39 -0800, "ntantiques" >
wrote:

>LurfysMa wrote:
>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>> making turley gravy.
>>
>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>
>Allspice and basil? Don't think I'd ever be tempted to include or
>combine either of these strong flavors in a traditional turkey gravy.
>Thyme or sage maybe, but not allspice and/or basil.

Several recipes called for basil and a couple of people here
recommended allspice so I tried it. I guess next time I'll go a lot
simpler and then experiment gradually.

>Potato peelings? What did you feel they would add to the flavor of
>your stock?

I dunno. I always heard that most of the flavor and vitamins are in or
just under the skin of vegetables and they were sitting right there.

>You were good to go with onion and carrot (I would have
>added some celery w/tops & Italian parsley and one large Bay Leaf),
>along with the spare turkey parts and black peppercorns. To end up
>with 4 cups of stock, add a good 6 cups of water to the pot with all of
>the parts. Simmer uncovered for a while, skimming any gunky foam, then
>simmer, covered, for a couple of hours and strain before using.

There was really never much of any scum or gunky foam to skim. I was
surprised by that.

>Rather than tossing in "used potato water" to bring your yield to 4C,
>better to plan ahead or add good quality canned chicken stock if you
>grossly miscalculate and come up short. I cook potatoes in "seriously
>salted" water and you may have inadvertantly oversalted your stock by
>diluting it by half with the potato water - not to mention diluting the
>flavor essence of the stock.

The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
superb, so I tried it.

>I wait to add salt until I've actually made the gravy and use far less
>than your 1-2 tsp for 4C of gravy. Oversalting doesn't always just
>make a dish taste salty - it can also kick the balance of other flavors
>silly, intensifying the flavors of ingredients in an unpleasant way.

That's just what I did. No salt until the very end, then as little as
possible. None of us like a lot of salt.

>I've used wine periodically in making turkey gravy to deglaze the
>roasting pan - a mellow red - occasionally Marsala or Madeira, but
>never in the stock itself.

I wouldn't have used wine at all, except that several people here
praised it and I had a bottle of chianti open...

>Am thinking you may have burned your flour - and overcooked flour is
>truly nasty. You really don't want the fat/flour mixture to actually be
>brown - when it moves from pasty to a pale golden shade, it's time to
>add liquid.

I think that's a good guess. The recipe I was working from said to
hear 6 Tbsp of fat on high heat, then whisk in the flour until golden
brown. I think my high heat may have been too high and the fat was not
right or maybe there was too much flour as it turned into a very
thick, almost dry, paste. I quickly added more fat and then liquid,
but it might have burned.

>The milk solids in the butter you added may also have burned.

The butter wasn't added until a lot later when everything was very
liquid.

>Sounds like that part of things got complicated for you.
>10-12T for just 4C of gravy is a lot of fat. Something was very "off"
>here.

I agree. I need more practice.

>I gave up on that whole pain in the keester part of gravy making
>years ago and keep Wondra flour on hand. No muss, no fuss, no lumps -
>perfect gravy everytime. Google for Wondra gravy recipes and you'll be
>a star.

I have used Wondra before and it is much easier, but I wanted to be a
"real" gravy maker! ;-)

>Best of luck - am sure the leftovers will be great!

One large turkey casserole comong up.

--

On 2006-12-26, LurfysMa > wrote:

> The turkey itself was definitely not burned, but the fond was very
> dark. Not quite black. Should I have not scraped up all of that?
>
> We have a gas stove and even the lowest setting is too hot. A couple
> of times the stock got simmering a little too fast -- almost a slow

This sounds like your primary problem. There was a whole lot of bad
advice going around this year (cooking shows, supermarket flyers)
about cooking the bird either partially or completely at temperatures
above 375 deg F. Well, this may or may not be a valid technique for
the bird, but it's murder on the drippings. It means the drippings
sit in the bottom of the pan and boil, turning the juices and proteins
into a dark, almost burnt, fond. We had basically the same results as
you describe. A very dark, almost black, fond that was very strong.
I didn't mind, being one who enjoys very intense flavors, but my
daughter and other family members didn't like it at all. I also
suspect the potato peels and multiple bay leaves may have contributed
to the of your gravy bitterness.

Next year my bird will be cooked at no more than 325 deg F max,
regardless of what anyone else says. I also suggest you buy a good
oven thermometer and completely ignore anything your oven control
indicates. It's been my experience that gas ovens are much more
stable and consistent at maintaining temperature than most electrics,
but getting a real life temp that corresponds with marks on a knob is
crap shoot. Get a thermometer.

nb

LurfysMa wrote:
> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> making turley gravy.
>
> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>
> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
> could do better.
>
> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>
> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>
> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
> hours.
>
> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>
> I strained the liquid into a pyrex yielding about 2 cups. I didn't
> taste it at this point. I probably should have. I let it sit. A little
> fat came to the top -- about 1/2 cup, which I spooned off.
>
> About this time, the turkey came out of the over. We set it on a
> cutting board. I poured the drippings into a pyrex bowl. I got a
> little less than a cup of liquid. This always happens. Very little
> liquid. My wife started with a cup or two of water in the bottom of
> the pan. The bird is on a rack and covered with foil. It always comes
> out tasting great, but not much liquid.
>
> Now comes what may have been mistake #2. The potatoes had just
> finished cooking and we had a boel of potato water. I added that to
> the 2 cups of stock making the 4 cups that I would need. I poured all
> of this into the roasting pan and put it over 2 burners on medium to
> deglaze.
>
> In the meantime, I heated 5-6 Tbsp of fat in the skillet and started
> whiking in the 5-6 Tbsp of flour previously measured out. This quickly
> became a very dry paste, so I kept adding more fat until I ran out
> than added butter. I probably added 10-12 Tbsp of fat altogether. I
> heated this until the flour turned brown.
>
> Meanwhile, I was stirring and scraping the roasting pan until all of
> the bits were loosened.
>
> I then strained the liquid from the roasting pan into the skillet with
> the flour and fat. This quickly became a smooth gravy that was a
> little too thin.
>
> It was at this point that I tasted it. It had a very strong bite to
> it. I first added a little salt (1-2 tsp at a time). This helped until
> I was worried that it was getting too salty.
>
> I ended up adding some milk and even cream, which made it less harsh,
> but still not what I hoped for.
>
> Any obvious errors?

Where to begin... EVERYTHING... you literally made garbage. You have
as much business being in the kitchen cooking as I do being in the OR
doing open heart surgery.

Sheldon

On 26 Dec 2006 06:21:32 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>> Any obvious errors?
>
>Where to begin... EVERYTHING... you literally made garbage. You have
>as much business being in the kitchen cooking as I do being in the OR
>doing open heart surgery.

....or contributing to a newsgroup.

It must be hell being you. I can get away from you, but, damn, you're
stuck with yourself. Bummer.

--

LurfysMa wrote:
> On 26 Dec 2006 01:04:39 -0800, "ntantiques" >
> wrote:
>
> >LurfysMa wrote:
> >> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> >> making turley gravy.
> >>
> >> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> >> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
> >
> >Allspice and basil? Don't think I'd ever be tempted to include or
> >combine either of these strong flavors in a traditional turkey gravy.
> >Thyme or sage maybe, but not allspice and/or basil.
>
> Several recipes called for basil and a couple of people here
> recommended allspice so I tried it. I guess next time I'll go a lot
> simpler and then experiment gradually.
>
> >Potato peelings? What did you feel they would add to the flavor of
> >your stock?
>
> I dunno. I always heard that most of the flavor and vitamins are in or
> just under the skin of vegetables and they were sitting right there.
>
> >You were good to go with onion and carrot (I would have
> >added some celery w/tops & Italian parsley and one large Bay Leaf),
> >along with the spare turkey parts and black peppercorns. To end up
> >with 4 cups of stock, add a good 6 cups of water to the pot with all of
> >the parts. Simmer uncovered for a while, skimming any gunky foam, then
> >simmer, covered, for a couple of hours and strain before using.
>
> There was really never much of any scum or gunky foam to skim. I was
> surprised by that.
>
> >Rather than tossing in "used potato water" to bring your yield to 4C,
> >better to plan ahead or add good quality canned chicken stock if you
> >grossly miscalculate and come up short. I cook potatoes in "seriously
> >salted" water and you may have inadvertantly oversalted your stock by
> >diluting it by half with the potato water - not to mention diluting the
> >flavor essence of the stock.
>
> The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
> sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
> superb, so I tried it.

My Mother always used the potato water in her gravy and it was
fantastic. I do it sometimes.
>
> >I wait to add salt until I've actually made the gravy and use far less
> >than your 1-2 tsp for 4C of gravy. Oversalting doesn't always just
> >make a dish taste salty - it can also kick the balance of other flavors
> >silly, intensifying the flavors of ingredients in an unpleasant way.
>
> That's just what I did. No salt until the very end, then as little as
> possible. None of us like a lot of salt.
>
> >I've used wine periodically in making turkey gravy to deglaze the
> >roasting pan - a mellow red - occasionally Marsala or Madeira, but
> >never in the stock itself.
>
> I wouldn't have used wine at all, except that several people here
> praised it and I had a bottle of chianti open...
>
> >Am thinking you may have burned your flour - and overcooked flour is
> >truly nasty. You really don't want the fat/flour mixture to actually be
> >brown - when it moves from pasty to a pale golden shade, it's time to
> >add liquid.
>
> I think that's a good guess. The recipe I was working from said to
> hear 6 Tbsp of fat on high heat, then whisk in the flour until golden
> brown. I think my high heat may have been too high and the fat was not
> right or maybe there was too much flour as it turned into a very
> thick, almost dry, paste. I quickly added more fat and then liquid,
> but it might have burned.
>
> >The milk solids in the butter you added may also have burned.
>
> The butter wasn't added until a lot later when everything was very
> liquid.
>
> >Sounds like that part of things got complicated for you.
> >10-12T for just 4C of gravy is a lot of fat. Something was very "off"
> >here.
>
> I agree. I need more practice.
>
> >I gave up on that whole pain in the keester part of gravy making
> >years ago and keep Wondra flour on hand. No muss, no fuss, no lumps -
> >perfect gravy everytime. Google for Wondra gravy recipes and you'll be
> >a star.
>
> I have used Wondra before and it is much easier, but I wanted to be a
> "real" gravy maker! ;-)
>
> >Best of luck - am sure the leftovers will be great!
>
> One large turkey casserole comong up.
>
Did you make sure that the kidneys were taken out of the turkey? If not
they can make the drippings quite bitter. I also think the seasonings
were a bit over the top, especially the bay leaves.
Vickie

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 07:35:19 -0600, notbob > wrote:

>On 2006-12-26, LurfysMa > wrote:
>
>> The turkey itself was definitely not burned, but the fond was very
>> dark. Not quite black. Should I have not scraped up all of that?
>>
>> We have a gas stove and even the lowest setting is too hot. A couple
>> of times the stock got simmering a little too fast -- almost a slow
>
>This sounds like your primary problem. There was a whole lot of bad
>advice going around this year (cooking shows, supermarket flyers)
>about cooking the bird either partially or completely at temperatures
>above 375 deg F. Well, this may or may not be a valid technique for
>the bird, but it's murder on the drippings. It means the drippings
>sit in the bottom of the pan and boil, turning the juices and proteins
>into a dark, almost burnt, fond. We had basically the same results as
>you describe. A very dark, almost black, fond that was very strong.
>I didn't mind, being one who enjoys very intense flavors, but my
>daughter and other family members didn't like it at all. I also
>suspect the potato peels and multiple bay leaves may have contributed
>to the of your gravy bitterness.
>
>Next year my bird will be cooked at no more than 325 deg F max,
>regardless of what anyone else says. I also suggest you buy a good
>oven thermometer and completely ignore anything your oven control
>indicates. It's been my experience that gas ovens are much more
>stable and consistent at maintaining temperature than most electrics,
>but getting a real life temp that corresponds with marks on a knob is
>crap shoot. Get a thermometer.

That sounds like the best place to start. I do have an oven
thermometer and a meat thermometer, but I wasn't cooking the turkey,
so I left that to her. I'm tempted to get another turkey in a couple
of weeks and try again. This time, bake at 325 and cut way back on the
bay leaves.

Thanks

--

In article >,
LurfysMa > wrote:

> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.

Probably the main mistake...

Especially if there were any green peels in there. :-(
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article .com>,
"Sheldon" > wrote:

> Where to begin... EVERYTHING...
<snipped Unnecessary mean comments>
>
> Sheldon

Overall, you tried to make it too bloody complicated...
I made the same mistake with my mango duck sauce this weekend. It won't
happen again.

Here is how I make a simple, trouble free turkey (or other) gravy:

Start with stock:

1 lb. turkey wings or necks, (plus neck, chopped heart and chopped
gizzard from the turkey, the cats get the turkey liver!) 2 stalks fine
sliced celery, 1 medium onion, chopped fairly fine, 3 to 4 cloves
garlic, pressed or fine minced, 1 large bulb (approx 2 tbs.) fine grated
fresh ginger root, 2 tsp. salt free lemon pepper (alternate is 1 1/2
tsp. dried lemon peel and 1/2 tsp. black pepper), 1 bay leaf.

Pressure cook all together in 2 quarts or so of water or simmer on stove
in a stock pot for 4 hours adding water as needed. (I fill the pressure
cooker to 3/4 full, it's a 6 quart cooker)

Strain, discard solids. Use the internal trivet to prevent scorching if
using a PC.

Cool over night, remove fat layer from top and discard.

When roasted turkey is nearly done, bring back up to a simmer in a stock
pot, add roast turkey drippings.

Thicken with arrowroot slurry or corn starch slurry to desired
thickness. I generally use about 1 heaping tbs. of powder per quart of
liquid and dissolve that in about 1/2 cup cold water per heaping tbs. of
powder, then add additional as needed.

Works for me! Comes out rich and yummy.

Add salt to taste.

You can use some pre-made chicken stock if you cannot or do not wish to
purchase extra turkey parts, but it's not the same.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

LurfysMa wrote:
>
> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
> making turley gravy.
>
> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.

Sorry it didn't turn out. Mine was great. My turkey was perfectly
cooked about 45 minutes before we had planned to eat. I poured
the drippings into a big measuring cup and let the liquid cool so
the fat would rise to the top. When it was time to make the
gravy, I poured some of the fat into the roasting pan on top of
the stove and an equal amount of flour, stirred it around and
cooked it a bit to make a roux. Meanwhile I had poured off most
of the fat in the measuring cup and added the good drippings to
the hot pan, and added to of the potato water. I also added a
bit of water from the carrots and the beans. I stirred it around
a bit while it thickened, tested it.... perfect. No salt or
pepper required, good turkey taste so no broth required.

The turkey was great. The thigh meat was nicely done without
overcooking the breast meat. After sitting, tented, for 45
minutes the meat was still nice and warm and sliced beautifully.

For stuffing (AKA dressing) I sautéed some onion and celery in
butter and olive oil, then added some thyme parsley and rosemary
from the garden along with some savory and sage, seasoned with
salt and pepper, added bunch of stale break crumbs, added just
enough water to dampen it. It was great.


The best side dish was the squash. I had halved and seeded a
butternut squash, seasoned it with salt and pepper and sprinkled
it with ground ginger and curry powder then a glug of olive oil
on top and into the oven for an hour. When It was cooked I just
scraped it out with a spoon and stirred it around to mix the
seasoning and spices thoroughly. It was delicious. My brother
really enjoyed it. He had only had it mashed before and thought
that mashing destroyed the texture.

On 2006-12-26, LurfysMa > wrote:

> of weeks and try again. This time, bake at 325 and cut way back on the
> bay leaves.

Bingo. The retired Navy cook I learned from said never cook any meat over
325 deg F. This advice has always stood in good stead for me, despite his
one shortcoming cooking beef roasts to dried out lumps.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
> On 2006-12-26, LurfysMa > wrote:
>
>> of weeks and try again. This time, bake at 325 and cut way back on the
>> bay leaves.
>
> Bingo. The retired Navy cook I learned from said never cook any meat over
> 325 deg F.

Not EVEN. I put my turkey in at 425 for 15 minutes with a cup of water in
the
roaster, then turned it down to 350 for two hours and 325 for the remaining
hour
or so. (20 minutes a pound.) It was the most perfect bird ever, the initial
searing
browned it deeply and sealed in the juices. The onions in the body cavity
kept it
moist, and the handful of rosemary I crushed in there suffused it with a
lovely
flavor. I took the group's advice and roasted it uncovered this time, too.

The result: snowy breast meat that is so moist it sliced paper thin with no
problem.
And the drippings were the perfect golden brown.

Since I cooked ahead I saved the drippings, then removed all but about two
tablespoons of the congealed fat, sliced the spices and other detritus from
the
bottom of the chilled, gelled lump, and when it was hot, put in a slurry of
1 part
flour to four parts water, added slowly, boiled for 3-4 minutes and thinned
with
a bit of watered broth. It was WONDERFUL and no lumps!

Thanks to every one for your good advice.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:36:34 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>We have a gas stove and even the lowest setting is too hot. A couple
>of times the stock got simmering a little too fast -- almost a slow
>boil -- and I had to turn it down. I did feel something slightly stuck
>to the bottom of the saucepan, but it came up easily. The stock never
>got even close to dry and never smelled burned.

Get yourself to a kitchen supply store, and buy a flame tamer. That
way, even if the setting is too hot, you will still be able to simmer
well, without getting whatever you are cooking, too hot.

Here is one similar to what I have"
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_/1...ds=flame+tamer

Christine

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:51:21 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>I think that's a good guess. The recipe I was working from said to
>hear 6 Tbsp of fat on high heat, then whisk in the flour until golden
>brown. I think my high heat may have been too high and the fat was not
>right or maybe there was too much flour as it turned into a very
>thick, almost dry, paste. I quickly added more fat and then liquid,
>but it might have burned.

When you are making a roux like that, it is supposed to be almost a
thick dryish paste, before you add the liquid. When it becomes like
that, cook it for another minute or so, to get rid of the raw flour
taste, then add your liquid.

Christine

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:27:35 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:14:50 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
>>>news >>>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>>>> making turley gravy.
>>>>
>>>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>>>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
>>>> could do better.
>>>>
>>>> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
>>>> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
>>>> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
>>>> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>>>>
>>>> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
>>>> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
>>>> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
>>>> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>>>>
>>>Lufysma, I don't think potato would add anything to gravy,though I've never
>>>tried that.
>>>>
>>>> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
>>>> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
>>>> hours.
>>>>
>>>Red wine, as well isn't a good idea. It fits with veal or beef, but not
>>>fowl.
>>>>
>>>> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
>>>> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>>>>
>>
>>I don't think the potato skins had anything to do with your problem.
>>You asked for glaring mistakes and my eye went straight to those 3 bay
>>leaves. That may be your problem. 1/2 or one small leaf at the most
>>would have been enough. Too much bay makes food taste like medicine.
>
>It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
>I;m pretty sure it wasn't.
>
Try less bay next time and see what happens.

>>The rest of the seasonings sounded odd to me, but I don't think they
>>would make your gravy bitter unless the wine contributed to it
>>somehow. Was it drinkable?
>
>Which ones in particular? All of them were recommended by multiple
>people here and/or found in several recipes.
>

OK, here goes. Remember - this is my opinion and based on personal
taste.

I definately wouldn't have chosen chianti.... it's too hard to find a
decent one (it's your second glaring mistake to me). I'd nix the red
wine altogether for my own gravy and go with none. If I really wanted
booze in it, I'd switch to a white, a little sherry (no more than 1/4
cup) or even less brandy brandy/cognac (2T max).

As for odd (for turkey gravy)... well, everything except the
peppercorns. I wouldn't put allspice, bay or basil in poultry gravy.
Where did you get that basil idea from? If you want something
different where a little goes a long way, go with tarragon or chervil.
Allspice is a "sweet" spice. I can visualize it in red meat or game
gravy, but not in a domesticated poultry gravy.

That's my opinion. You can take it or leave it.

>><snip>
>>>>
>>>> Any obvious errors?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>
>>Did you include the liver with those giblets? Some people think liver
>>makes gravy taste bitter.
>
>Yes, I did. I know some people say not to, but others say it's good. I
>guess I'll try leaving it out next time.

Bottom line. It was the liver. For people who are sensitive to that
taste, it's "bitter". I'm ok with it as long as it isn't cut up and
included in the final product.

--
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:51:21 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
>sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
>superb, so I tried it.

I use potato water too, it's fine.

--
See return address to reply by email

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:27:35 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:14:50 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
>>>news >>>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>>>> making turley gravy.
>>>>
>>>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>>>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
>>>> could do better.
>>>>
>>>> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
>>>> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
>>>> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
>>>> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>>>>
>>>> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
>>>> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
>>>> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
>>>> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>>>>
>>>Lufysma, I don't think potato would add anything to gravy,though I've never
>>>tried that.
>>>>
>>>> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
>>>> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
>>>> hours.
>>>>
>>>Red wine, as well isn't a good idea. It fits with veal or beef, but not
>>>fowl.
>>>>
>>>> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
>>>> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>>>>
>>
>>I don't think the potato skins had anything to do with your problem.
>>You asked for glaring mistakes and my eye went straight to those 3 bay
>>leaves. That may be your problem. 1/2 or one small leaf at the most
>>would have been enough. Too much bay makes food taste like medicine.
>
>It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
>I;m pretty sure it wasn't.
>
>>The rest of the seasonings sounded odd to me, but I don't think they
>>would make your gravy bitter unless the wine contributed to it
>>somehow. Was it drinkable?
>
>Which ones in particular? All of them were recommended by multiple
>people here and/or found in several recipes.
>
>><snip>
>>>>
>>>> Any obvious errors?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>
>>Did you include the liver with those giblets? Some people think liver
>>makes gravy taste bitter.
>
>Yes, I did. I know some people say not to, but others say it's good. I
>guess I'll try leaving it out next time.


--
See return address to reply by email

LurfysMa wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:
>
> It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
> I;m pretty sure it wasn't.


How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
from it.

Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
mingles in the drippings.


Dawn

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:43:14 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>
>The turkey was great. The thigh meat was nicely done without
>overcooking the breast meat. After sitting, tented, for 45
>minutes the meat was still nice and warm and sliced beautifully.
>
So, is allowing it to sit is the secret to perfectly cooked white and
dark meat? What temp did you bring it out at and which one did you
check... light or dark?

--
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On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:27:35 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:14:50 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
>>>news
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:27:35 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 25 Dec 2006 23:14:50 -0800, "Kent" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"LurfysMa" > wrote in message
>>>news >>>> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>>>> making turley gravy.
>>>>
>>>> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>>>> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to describe what I did and see if anyone can suggest how I
>>>> could do better.
>>>>
>>>> When the turkey went into the oven, I started the stock. I heated some
>>>> olive oil in a skillet ove medium high heat and browned the neck,
>>>> giblets, and wing tips for about 5-6 minutes. I added an onion and
>>>> some carrots chopped coarsely and cooked for several minutes.
>>>>
>>>> At this point, I may have made my first mistake. My wife had just
>>>> finished peeling the potatoes and there were a pile of potato peelings
>>>> in the sink. I grabbed a handful and dumped them into the skillet with
>>>> the other veggies. I probably added a cup or so.
>>>>
>>>Lufysma, I don't think potato would add anything to gravy,though I've never
>>>tried that.
>>>>
>>>> I added a half cup of chianti and enough water to cover everything and
>>>> brought it to a simmer. I left it to simmer partly covered for 2
>>>> hours.
>>>>
>>>Red wine, as well isn't a good idea. It fits with veal or beef, but not
>>>fowl.
>>>>
>>>> I then added 3 bay leaves, 6-8 whole peppercorns, 5-6 whole allspice
>>>> berries, and some basil. I left this to simmer for another hour.
>>>>
>>
>>I don't think the potato skins had anything to do with your problem.
>>You asked for glaring mistakes and my eye went straight to those 3 bay
>>leaves. That may be your problem. 1/2 or one small leaf at the most
>>would have been enough. Too much bay makes food taste like medicine.
>
>It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
>I;m pretty sure it wasn't.
>
Try less bay next time and see what happens.

>>The rest of the seasonings sounded odd to me, but I don't think they
>>would make your gravy bitter unless the wine contributed to it
>>somehow. Was it drinkable?
>
>Which ones in particular? All of them were recommended by multiple
>people here and/or found in several recipes.
>

OK, here goes. Remember - this is my opinion and based on personal
taste.

I definately wouldn't have chosen chianti.... it's too hard to find a
decent one (it's your second glaring mistake to me). I'd nix the red
wine altogether for my own gravy and go with none. If I really wanted
booze in it, I'd switch to a white, a little sherry (no more than 1/4
cup) or even less brandy brandy/cognac (2T max).

As for odd (for turkey gravy)... well, everything except the
peppercorns. I wouldn't put allspice, bay or basil in poultry gravy.
Where did you get that basil idea from? If you want something
different where a little goes a long way, go with tarragon or chervil.
Allspice is a "sweet" spice. I can visualize it in red meat or game
gravy, but not in a domesticated poultry gravy.

That's my opinion. You can take it or leave it.

>><snip>
>>>>
>>>> Any obvious errors?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>
>>Did you include the liver with those giblets? Some people think liver
>>makes gravy taste bitter.
>
>Yes, I did. I know some people say not to, but others say it's good. I
>guess I'll try leaving it out next time.

Bottom line. It was the liver. For people who are sensitive to that
taste, it's "bitter". I'm ok with it as long as it isn't cut up and
included in the final product.

--
See return address to reply by email

cybercat wrote:

> Not EVEN. I put my turkey in at 425 for 15 minutes with a cup of water in
> the
> roaster, then turned it down to 350 for two hours and 325 for the remaining
> hour
>
I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
"roast"??

sf wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:51:21 -0800, LurfysMa >
> wrote:
>
>> The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
>> sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
>> superb, so I tried it.
>
> I use potato water too, it's fine.
>
Potato water added to the liquid when that is added to gravy making is
one thing and it is commonly done....but didn't this person brown the
peels or something? That sounds pretty disgusting to me.

Dawn wrote:

> How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
> have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
> from it.
>
> Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
> that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
> blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
> mingles in the drippings.
>

Why use butter at all for turkey gravy?? That's what the drippings are
supposed to be for.

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:15:03 -0800, sf wrote:

>>>I don't think the potato skins had anything to do with your problem.
>>>You asked for glaring mistakes and my eye went straight to those 3 bay
>>>leaves. That may be your problem. 1/2 or one small leaf at the most
>>>would have been enough. Too much bay makes food taste like medicine.
>>
>>It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
>>I;m pretty sure it wasn't.
>>
>Try less bay next time and see what happens.
>
>>>The rest of the seasonings sounded odd to me, but I don't think they
>>>would make your gravy bitter unless the wine contributed to it
>>>somehow. Was it drinkable?
>>
>>Which ones in particular? All of them were recommended by multiple
>>people here and/or found in several recipes.
>>
>
>OK, here goes. Remember - this is my opinion and based on personal
>taste.
>
>I definately wouldn't have chosen chianti.... it's too hard to find a
>decent one (it's your second glaring mistake to me). I'd nix the red
>wine altogether for my own gravy and go with none. If I really wanted
>booze in it, I'd switch to a white, a little sherry (no more than 1/4
>cup) or even less brandy brandy/cognac (2T max).
>
>As for odd (for turkey gravy)... well, everything except the
>peppercorns. I wouldn't put allspice, bay or basil in poultry gravy.
>Where did you get that basil idea from? If you want something
>different where a little goes a long way, go with tarragon or chervil.
>Allspice is a "sweet" spice. I can visualize it in red meat or game
>gravy, but not in a domesticated poultry gravy.
>
>That's my opinion. You can take it or leave it.

OK, I'll go simple next time and work up from there. No wine at all,
no bay leaves.

>>>Did you include the liver with those giblets? Some people think liver
>>>makes gravy taste bitter.
>>
>>Yes, I did. I know some people say not to, but others say it's good. I
>>guess I'll try leaving it out next time.
>
>Bottom line. It was the liver. For people who are sensitive to that
>taste, it's "bitter". I'm ok with it as long as it isn't cut up and
>included in the final product.

The liver was cut up for the stock, but tossed with the solids that
were strained out. Chunks were NOT in the gravy. But I can try leaving
it out.

Thanks for the opinions.

--

On 26 Dec 2006 11:23:50 -0800, "Dawn" >
wrote:

>
>LurfysMa wrote:
>> On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 00:19:55 -0800, sf wrote:
>>
>> It didn't taste like medicine, exactly. More like it was burned, which
>> I;m pretty sure it wasn't.
>
>
>How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
>have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
>from it.

It might have gotten a little past golden. I'll watch that more
carefully next time. It kinda dried out and then got hot. The "fat"
didn't hold up. That's why I added butter. Maybe the "fat" wasn't
really fat in the first place.

>Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
>that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
>blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
>mingles in the drippings.

Yes, there were some very dark pieces. Someone else recommended baking
at a lower temp. We used 350, but the oven may be hot. Otherwise, do I
scrape up the worse (most burned) pieces before degflazing?

--

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:09:41 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>Dawn wrote:
>
>> How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
>> have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
>> from it.
>>
>> Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
>> that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
>> blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
>> mingles in the drippings.
>>
>
>Why use butter at all for turkey gravy?? That's what the drippings are
>supposed to be for.

Because I didn't have enough fat to cook the flour. It got dried out.

--

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:43:56 -0700, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:36:34 -0800, LurfysMa >
>wrote:
>
>>We have a gas stove and even the lowest setting is too hot. A couple
>>of times the stock got simmering a little too fast -- almost a slow
>>boil -- and I had to turn it down. I did feel something slightly stuck
>>to the bottom of the saucepan, but it came up easily. The stock never
>>got even close to dry and never smelled burned.
>
>Get yourself to a kitchen supply store, and buy a flame tamer. That
>way, even if the setting is too hot, you will still be able to simmer
>well, without getting whatever you are cooking, too hot.
>
>Here is one similar to what I have"
>http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_/1...ds=flame+tamer

Christine,

Do you have the solid plate flame tamer:

http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-208...UTF8&s=kitchen

or the perforated gflame tamer / simmer ring:

http://www.amazon.com/Maxi-Aids-Flam...UTF8&s=kitchen

?

--

"Vickie in Utah" > wrote:
>LurfysMa wrote:
>> On 26 Dec 2006 01:04:39 -0800, "ntantiques" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >LurfysMa wrote:
>> >> First of all, thanks to everyone for their help and suggestions for
>> >> making turley gravy.
>> >>
>> >> The turkey gravy was good, but not great. I'd give it a B or B+. My
>> >> main complaint was that it had a slightly bitter or harsh taste.
>> >
>> >Allspice and basil? Don't think I'd ever be tempted to include or
>> >combine either of these strong flavors in a traditional turkey gravy.
>> >Thyme or sage maybe, but not allspice and/or basil.
>>
>> Several recipes called for basil and a couple of people here
>> recommended allspice so I tried it. I guess next time I'll go a lot
>> simpler and then experiment gradually.
>>
>> >Potato peelings? What did you feel they would add to the flavor of
>> >your stock?
>>
>> I dunno. I always heard that most of the flavor and vitamins are in or
>> just under the skin of vegetables and they were sitting right there.
>>
>> >You were good to go with onion and carrot (I would have
>> >added some celery w/tops & Italian parsley and one large Bay Leaf),
>> >along with the spare turkey parts and black peppercorns. To end up
>> >with 4 cups of stock, add a good 6 cups of water to the pot with all of
>> >the parts. Simmer uncovered for a while, skimming any gunky foam, then
>> >simmer, covered, for a couple of hours and strain before using.
>>
>> There was really never much of any scum or gunky foam to skim. I was
>> surprised by that.
>>
>> >Rather than tossing in "used potato water" to bring your yield to 4C,
>> >better to plan ahead or add good quality canned chicken stock if you
>> >grossly miscalculate and come up short. I cook potatoes in "seriously
>> >salted" water and you may have inadvertantly oversalted your stock by
>> >diluting it by half with the potato water - not to mention diluting the
>> >flavor essence of the stock.
>>
>> The potatoes were cooked in plain water, no salt at all. I'm pretty
>> sure my mother used to use potato water in her gravy and it was
>> superb, so I tried it.
>
>My Mother always used the potato water in her gravy and it was
>fantastic. I do it sometimes.
>>
>> >I wait to add salt until I've actually made the gravy and use far less
>> >than your 1-2 tsp for 4C of gravy. Oversalting doesn't always just
>> >make a dish taste salty - it can also kick the balance of other flavors
>> >silly, intensifying the flavors of ingredients in an unpleasant way.
>>
>> That's just what I did. No salt until the very end, then as little as
>> possible. None of us like a lot of salt.
>>
>> >I've used wine periodically in making turkey gravy to deglaze the
>> >roasting pan - a mellow red - occasionally Marsala or Madeira, but
>> >never in the stock itself.
>>
>> I wouldn't have used wine at all, except that several people here
>> praised it and I had a bottle of chianti open...
>>
>> >Am thinking you may have burned your flour - and overcooked flour is
>> >truly nasty. You really don't want the fat/flour mixture to actually be
>> >brown - when it moves from pasty to a pale golden shade, it's time to
>> >add liquid.
>>
>> I think that's a good guess. The recipe I was working from said to
>> hear 6 Tbsp of fat on high heat, then whisk in the flour until golden
>> brown. I think my high heat may have been too high and the fat was not
>> right or maybe there was too much flour as it turned into a very
>> thick, almost dry, paste. I quickly added more fat and then liquid,
>> but it might have burned.
>>
>> >The milk solids in the butter you added may also have burned.
>>
>> The butter wasn't added until a lot later when everything was very
>> liquid.
>>
>> >Sounds like that part of things got complicated for you.
>> >10-12T for just 4C of gravy is a lot of fat. Something was very "off"
>> >here.
>>
>> I agree. I need more practice.
>>
>> >I gave up on that whole pain in the keester part of gravy making
>> >years ago and keep Wondra flour on hand. No muss, no fuss, no lumps -
>> >perfect gravy everytime. Google for Wondra gravy recipes and you'll be
>> >a star.
>>
>> I have used Wondra before and it is much easier, but I wanted to be a
>> "real" gravy maker! ;-)
>>
>> >Best of luck - am sure the leftovers will be great!
>>
>> One large turkey casserole comong up.
>>
>Did you make sure that the kidneys were taken out of the turkey? If not
>they can make the drippings quite bitter. I also think the seasonings
>were a bit over the top, especially the bay leaves.
>Vickie

I have never seen kidneys included with a turkey or any foul for that matter.

Randy

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:46:00 -0700, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 04:51:21 -0800, LurfysMa >
>wrote:
>
>>I think that's a good guess. The recipe I was working from said to
>>hear 6 Tbsp of fat on high heat, then whisk in the flour until golden
>>brown. I think my high heat may have been too high and the fat was not
>>right or maybe there was too much flour as it turned into a very
>>thick, almost dry, paste. I quickly added more fat and then liquid,
>>but it might have burned.
>
>When you are making a roux like that, it is supposed to be almost a
>thick dryish paste, before you add the liquid. When it becomes like
>that, cook it for another minute or so, to get rid of the raw flour
>taste, then add your liquid.

Well, that's what I had, but I probably had the heat on too high. I'll
get one of those flame tamers and see if that helps.

--

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:32:38 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:43:56 -0700, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>>Here is one similar to what I have"
>>http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_/1...ds=flame+tamer
>
>Christine,
>
>Do you have the solid plate flame tamer:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/Kuhn-Rikon-208...UTF8&s=kitchen
>
>or the perforated gflame tamer / simmer ring:
>
>http://www.amazon.com/Maxi-Aids-Flam...UTF8&s=kitchen
>
>?

If you read what I said, I have the one that is like the one in the
link I posted. The perforated one.

However, either kind is just fine.

Christine

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:35:31 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 11:46:00 -0700, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>>When you are making a roux like that, it is supposed to be almost a
>>thick dryish paste, before you add the liquid. When it becomes like
>>that, cook it for another minute or so, to get rid of the raw flour
>>taste, then add your liquid.
>
>Well, that's what I had, but I probably had the heat on too high. I'll
>get one of those flame tamers and see if that helps.

Even if you had the heat on too high, that is still when you add
liquid. Don't start adding more butter or other type of fat...just
the liquid at that point.

Christine

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 13:38:26 -0700, Christine Dabney
> wrote:


>If you read what I said, I have the one that is like the one in the
>link I posted. The perforated one.
>
>However, either kind is just fine.
>
>Christine

Replying to my own post:

My mistake, I thought I posted the link to the one I had. Yes, I have
the perforated one..but either one is just fine.

Christine

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:01:23 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>cybercat wrote:
>
>> Not EVEN. I put my turkey in at 425 for 15 minutes with a cup of water in
>> the
>> roaster, then turned it down to 350 for two hours and 325 for the remaining
>> hour
>>
>I don't quite get why people put water into things they're trying to
>"roast"??

What's the problem? The roast should be on a rack, so the water won't
be touching it.

--
See return address to reply by email

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:27:00 -0800, LurfysMa >
wrote:

>On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 15:09:41 -0500, Goomba38 >
>wrote:
>
>>Dawn wrote:
>>
>>> How brown was the flour paste that you made with the butter? It should
>>> have been golden, any darker than that and you will get a burned taste
>>> from it.
>>>
>>> Also, did you scrape anything out of the bottom of the roasting pan
>>> that was burned? Sometimes bits of stuff in the pan get completely
>>> blackened before the bird gives up juices and fat, and the flavor
>>> mingles in the drippings.
>>>
>>
>>Why use butter at all for turkey gravy?? That's what the drippings are
>>supposed to be for.
>
>Because I didn't have enough fat to cook the flour. It got dried out.

Next time, skip the roux and make a slurry of flour and water. Add it
to the stock and/or drippings using a whisk and cook it on low for 20
minutes or so. I always add a few drops of Lea and Perrins at the
end, so I have never have a problem with gravy that's too light
colored. If you don't like Worcestershire (I think it finishes off
gravy perfectly), you can add a drop or two of Kitchen Bouquet.

--
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