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Typical packed lunch
Ranee Mueller wrote:
> I have gotten paranoid, since growing up and cooking my own meals, > about food poisoning, but surely I am not the only person to have > survived a childhood with meat sandwiches containing mayonnaise and hard > boiled eggs and yogurt in my lunches. I think that mayonnaise is falsely thought of as being the culprit in food poisoning cases; I think that is a myth. nancy |
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Typical packed lunch
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Typical packed lunch
"Nancy Young" > wrote in message ... > Ranee Mueller wrote: > > > I have gotten paranoid, since growing up and cooking my own meals, > > about food poisoning, but surely I am not the only person to have > > survived a childhood with meat sandwiches containing mayonnaise and hard > > boiled eggs and yogurt in my lunches. > > I think that mayonnaise is falsely thought of as being the culprit in > food poisoning cases; I think that is a myth. Right. I would think that cyanide, for instance, would be MUCH more effective...:-) Bob M. |
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Typical packed lunch
On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 10:19:15 -0700, Ranee Mueller
> arranged random neurons, so they looked like this: > There was a kid I went to grade school with whose father was an >artist. Every day, his lunch sacks were drawn with these amazing >pictures with the boy's name hidden in it. He wasn't a very popular >boy, but it made other kids want to sit near him to check out the >picture and help find his name. Thinking back on it now, especially now >that I am a parent, I am really touched at the love his father had for >him to make such an effort every single day to show him he mattered. It >was his way of sending a love note. > I used to write a silly "Roses are red, violets are blue" type poem in the kids' lunches from time to time ("Roses are red, violets are blue, I made this sammidge, Just for you!" fer instance). Years later, the male child unit told me that he used to disgustedly say to his tablemates, "Aw, jeez, would you look at this stoooopid thing my mother wrote?" when he was actually pleased as punch :-) Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA "If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret had been as old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had been as full as the waitress', it would have been a very good dinner." Anonymous. To reply, remove "gotcha" |
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Typical packed lunch
>> > I have gotten paranoid, since growing up and cooking my own
meals, >> > about food poisoning, but surely I am not the only person to have >> > survived a childhood with meat sandwiches containing mayonnaise and hard >> > boiled eggs and yogurt in my lunches. >> >> I think that mayonnaise is falsely thought of as being the culprit in >> food poisoning cases; I think that is a myth. > Didn't you ever make sandwiches as a child and ride out on your bicycles far away on a hot summer's day for a picnic? The sandwiches would be in your backpack and would be hot by the time you reached the destination, but they tasted great. Boiled eggs too, and all sorts of meat. neil Neil McMullen Please reply to Group as my email is fake. |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
> I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might
think if they don't have them. How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo get warm is one risk I can eliminate. -- Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995 http://www.SteigerFamily.com Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31 Remove "removethis" from address to reply |
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Typical packed lunch
> I think that mayonnaise is falsely thought of as being the culprit in
food poisoning cases; I think that is a myth. I think you're a troll just trying to get sensible people aggravated. -- Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995 http://www.SteigerFamily.com Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31 Remove "removethis" from address to reply |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Sylvia wrote:
> > > I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might > think if they don't have them. > > How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not > every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some > does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, > but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo > get warm is one risk I can eliminate. WHY do you think mayonnaise is a danger? The pasteurized eggs? The oil? What? And why are any of us here, us precious cargo, who ate tuna sandwiches at lunch all the time. nancy |
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Typical packed lunch
Sylvia wrote:
> > > I think that mayonnaise is falsely thought of as being the culprit in > food poisoning cases; I think that is a myth. > > I think you're a troll just trying to get sensible people aggravated. > > -- > Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995 > http://www.SteigerFamily.com > Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a > Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31 > Remove "removethis" from address to reply Let me get this straight. *I* am a troll????! Do they have bridges in Wyoming, because ... I think you should go suck mayonnaise under one with your spawn. nancy |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Nancy Young wrote:
> Sylvia wrote: > >> > I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might >>think if they don't have them. >> >>How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not >> every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some >>does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, >>but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo >>get warm is one risk I can eliminate. > > WHY do you think mayonnaise is a danger? The pasteurized eggs? The > oil? What? And why are any of us here, us precious cargo, who ate > tuna sandwiches at lunch all the time. Mayo isn't processed for sterility when bottled. It's stored and sold at room temperature. It's most assuredly not a good culture medium for bacterial growth as the pH and extremely low water activity contribute to a bacteriostatic environment. Mayo is warm when it's made, when it's warehoused, when it's displayed in stores. It's the stuff served with the mayo that can grow the bacteria. Pastorio |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
When I was a kid, my neighbor's Mom was from France. When we wanted mayo
for a sandwich, she would whip up a couple of egg yolks and lord knows what else for our sandwiches. (And we ate it, raw eggs and all.) My understanding is that real mayo is made in such a way that very bad things could happen if left at room temperature but the stuff we buy off the shelf is hardly the same risk. j "Bob Pastorio" > wrote in message ... > Nancy Young wrote: > > > Sylvia wrote: > > > >> > I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might > >>think if they don't have them. > >> > >>How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not > >> every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some > >>does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, > >>but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo > >>get warm is one risk I can eliminate. > > > > WHY do you think mayonnaise is a danger? The pasteurized eggs? The > > oil? What? And why are any of us here, us precious cargo, who ate > > tuna sandwiches at lunch all the time. > > Mayo isn't processed for sterility when bottled. It's stored and sold > at room temperature. It's most assuredly not a good culture medium for > bacterial growth as the pH and extremely low water activity contribute > to a bacteriostatic environment. Mayo is warm when it's made, when > it's warehoused, when it's displayed in stores. > > It's the stuff served with the mayo that can grow the bacteria. > > Pastorio > |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:40:47 GMT, Sylvia
> wrote: >How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not > every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some >does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, >but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo >get warm is one risk I can eliminate. I think the question is one of "acceptable" risk. Commercial mayo is made with pasturized eggs (eliminating for the most part, the risk of salmonalla). Most egg warnings have to do with uncooked home prep. Even with helmets, which seem like a good idea, kids on bikes can/will suffer injuries. If some fall while climbing a tree, one could cut down all trees. I'm amazed that, in this era of litigation for *everything* that schools are still allowed to have sports programs -- surely concussions, drowning, broken limbs, etc. are ever present dangers. Can't fault keeping "hot foods hot and cold foods cold," but unless one follows one's kids around, who knows when they're going to trade PB&J for tuna salad? On one hand, I think we moderns are over-fussy about various 'safety' concerns. OTOH, I understand why some want to sterilize and/or pad everything a child comes in contact with. Minimizing risks is reasonable and thoughtful; eliminating them is impossible and fidgetty. |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Julianne wrote:
> When I was a kid, my neighbor's Mom was from France. When we wanted mayo > for a sandwich, she would whip up a couple of egg yolks and lord knows what > else for our sandwiches. (And we ate it, raw eggs and all.) My > understanding is that real mayo is made in such a way that very bad things > could happen if left at room temperature but the stuff we buy off the shelf > is hardly the same risk. You were given bad info. Homemade mayo and commercial mayo are made essentially the same way. The only differences are that commercial mayo has pasteurized eggs in it. If you make mayo at home and let it stand at room temp for a couple days, the pH and water activity levels will essentially sterilize it. Or, you can pasteurize the eggs at home if you really want to. <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Mayonnaise.html> Pastorio > > j > "Bob Pastorio" > wrote in message > ... > >>Nancy Young wrote: >> >> >>>Sylvia wrote: >>> >>> >>>>>I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might >>>> >>>>think if they don't have them. >>>> >>>>How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not >>>> every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some >>>>does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, >>>>but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo >>>>get warm is one risk I can eliminate. >>> >>>WHY do you think mayonnaise is a danger? The pasteurized eggs? The >>>oil? What? And why are any of us here, us precious cargo, who ate >>>tuna sandwiches at lunch all the time. >> >>Mayo isn't processed for sterility when bottled. It's stored and sold >>at room temperature. It's most assuredly not a good culture medium for >>bacterial growth as the pH and extremely low water activity contribute >>to a bacteriostatic environment. Mayo is warm when it's made, when >>it's warehoused, when it's displayed in stores. >> >>It's the stuff served with the mayo that can grow the bacteria. >> >>Pastorio >> > > > |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
"Julianne" writes:
> >When I was a kid, my neighbor's Mom was from France. Who gives a flying **** where that unbathed **** is from, and being from that cesspool of yellow bellied spineless terrorist lovers is being from nowhere. >When we wanted mayo >for a sandwich, she would whip up a couple of egg yolks and lord knows what >else for our sandwiches. (And we ate it, raw eggs and all.) My >understanding is that real mayo is made in such a way that very bad things >could happen if left at room temperature but the stuff we buy off the shelf >is hardly the same risk. When you say "left at room temperature" how many weeks you tawkin'? Commercial mayo (ie. Best Foods, etc.) sits on the stupidmarket shelf often up to a year, and longer, before it's purchased, and not necessarily in a climate controlled envionment (many markets aren't air conditioned), and those mayo jars are NOT vacuum sealed (so make sure that plastic band is intact). There is no reason one could not remove the lid from a jar of mayo, scoop out a blob with a clean implement, replace the cap and leave it out on the counter for many months... that mayo will not spoil if that's all that occurs... but that's not what occurs, folks poke food laden implements into the mayo, deep down and stirred about as they do their scooping... the mayo quickly becomes *contaminated*, and so the manufacturers recommend refrigeration. If homemade mayo were prepared under sterile conditions with pasterized eggs then it would not need refrigeration either, but duplicating those conditions at home is just not a possibility. Plain mayo in of itself just doesn't breed bacteria all that quickly, especially not commercial mayo... it's primarilly what's mixed with mayo that affects spoilage, especially in the short term... the typical tuna salad sandwich prepared in the AM and stored at room temperature for a school lunch just will not breed enough bacteria by noontime to cause illness... a tuna salad sandwich left at room temperature for 5-6 hours will not cause someone with a normal immune system to become ill, but left in the school desk until the next day's lunch (or out in the hot sun all day at a picnic) is not a good idea. When you say don't let the mayo get warm, how warm you tawkin'... shit, yer fridge is warm compared with your freezer. Idiots. ---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =--- ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- Sheldon ```````````` "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 02:40:47 GMT, Sylvia > wrote: > > I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might >think if they don't have them. > >How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not Sylvia, When you change the subject of a thread, could you please indicate: a. The original subject title eg. "Don't let meat or mayo get warm (Was "...former subject line...") and b. the poster you are quoting? Thanks. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Bob Pastorio > wrote in
: > wrote: > >> Eggs after 8 hours (even though Canadian eggs usually do not have >> salmonella) milk after two days, even though it has not reached the >> BB date. > > Eggs can be held at room temperature for days and even weeks. As long > as they're cooked through at service. > Indeed, eggs are not refrigerated in stores here (NSW, Australia). They are simply kept on a shelf. I do refrigerate them when I get them home, as a matter of course. I suppose I don't really need to in winter, but I just keep doing it as a habit. In summer it's a good idea as our kitchen can get pretty warm if the airconditioning isn't on - e.g. when nobody's home during the day. Actually, even when Rob's home he tends not to put the airconditioning on till he gets to the point where he's complaining about how stinking hot it is. -- Rhonda Anderson Penrith, NSW, Australia |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
> the stuff we buy off the shelf is hardly the same risk.
Sorry to disillusion you, but most food poisonings from potato salad/tuna salad/etc were probably made with commercial mayonnaise, because how many people do you know who make their own? -- Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995 http://www.SteigerFamily.com Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31 Remove "removethis" from address to reply |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
PENMART01 wrote:
> "Julianne" writes: > > My >>understanding is that real mayo is made in such a way that very bad things >>could happen if left at room temperature but the stuff we buy off the shelf >>is hardly the same risk. > > > When you say "left at room temperature" how many weeks you tawkin'? > > Commercial mayo (ie. Best Foods, etc.) sits on the stupidmarket shelf often up > to a year, and longer, before it's purchased, and not necessarily in a climate > controlled envionment (many markets aren't air conditioned), and those mayo > jars are NOT vacuum sealed (so make sure that plastic band is intact). There > is no reason one could not remove the lid from a jar of mayo, scoop out a blob > with a clean implement, replace the cap and leave it out on the counter for > many months... that mayo will not spoil if that's all that occurs... but that's > not what occurs, folks poke food laden implements into the mayo, deep down and > stirred about as they do their scooping... the mayo quickly becomes > *contaminated*, and so the manufacturers recommend refrigeration. If homemade > mayo were prepared under sterile conditions with pasterized eggs then it would > not need refrigeration either, but duplicating those conditions at home is just > not a possibility. Once again, you talk crap, Cookie. Commercial mayo isn't made under "sterile conditions" and it doesn't need to be. The low pH and low water activity make it unnecessary. Commercial mayo wasn't always made with pasteurized eggs and it was just as safe and just as free from spoilage. Now they use processed eggs to add another layer of surety. Anybody who's concerned about bacterial contamination in eggs can pasteurize them at home. I posted a URL earlier about that. But it's simply unnecessary. Let your homemade mayo sit at room temp for a couple days and the bacteria die. Commercial mayo is made with eggs that have been lightly frozen because some food science wizard discovered that those eggs could emulsify more oil. There's less egg in commercial mayo, volume for volume, than homemade. Pastorio > Plain mayo in of itself just doesn't breed bacteria all that quickly, > especially not commercial mayo. it's primarilly what's mixed with mayo that > affects spoilage, especially in the short term... the typical tuna salad > sandwich prepared in the AM and stored at room temperature for a school lunch > just will not breed enough bacteria by noontime to cause illness... a tuna > salad sandwich left at room temperature for 5-6 hours will not cause someone > with a normal immune system to become ill, but left in the school desk until > the next day's lunch (or out in the hot sun all day at a picnic) is not a good > idea. > > When you say don't let the mayo get warm, how warm you tawkin'... shit, yer > fridge is warm compared with your freezer. > > Idiots. > > > ---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =--- > ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =--- > Sheldon > ```````````` > "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation." > |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Sylvia wrote:
> > the stuff we buy off the shelf is hardly the same risk. > > Sorry to disillusion you, but most food poisonings from potato > salad/tuna salad/etc were probably made with commercial mayonnaise, > because how many people do you know who make their own? Sylvia, you're using the wrong premise to make your point. It isn't the mayo that's spoiling. Not homemade nor commercial. It's the other stuff, the "diluents" that foster bacterial growth. The mayo is actually keeping the bacterial growth down because of its bacteriostatic properties. Pastorio |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 21:49:22 GMT, "Peter Aitken"
> wrote: >And sorry to disillusion you, but food scientists have shown long ago that >food poisonings from mayo-containing salads are *not* due to the mayo but >rather to the other ingredients. Or other dishes prepared on the same surface (or using the same utensils)...such as preparing that chicken for the grill, then using the same surface to cut potatoes for potato salad. Bob |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
"Sylvia" > wrote in message
... > > the stuff we buy off the shelf is hardly the same risk. > > Sorry to disillusion you, but most food poisonings from potato > salad/tuna salad/etc were probably made with commercial mayonnaise, > because how many people do you know who make their own? > > -- And sorry to disillusion you, but food scientists have shown long ago that food poisonings from mayo-containing salads are *not* due to the mayo but rather to the other ingredients. -- Peter Aitken Remove the crap from my email address before using. |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 19:35:44 GMT, Sylvia
> wrote: >Sorry to disillusion you, but most food poisonings from potato >salad/tuna salad/etc were probably made with commercial mayonnaise, >because how many people do you know who make their own? That would be logical *if* mayonnaise were responsible for "most" food poisoning. From all I've been able to gather, these picnic salad-based incidents are much more likely to be caused by plain ol' food mishandling involving *other* contaminated items. Raw eggs *can* harbor salmonella; therefore homemade, raw-egg mayonnaise is a (slim) possibility. A CDC report on salmonella, citing just under 1,100 cases in 1999, says "Of the 19 outbreaks in 1999 for which a vehicle could be confirmed, 15 (79%) were associated with shell eggs; implicated vehicles included lasagna, ice cream, tira misu, stuffing, and manicotti. Between 1993 and 1998, an average of 82% of vehicle-confirmed outbreaks have been egg-associated." http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/disea...ECSTE99web.pdf However, the detailed table of suspected or confirmed food causes shows only ONE that mentions a mayonnaise-based salad (chicken). The other egg-containing foods include lasagna, freedom toast(!), Chinese burrito, and quiche. Nope. I don't think I'm going to worry about an unrefrigerated tuna salad sandwich any more. |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Thanks for the link. I have stayed away from sauces and recipes with raw
eggs in them. I feel better now and pasteurizing them doesn't seem complicated at all even if it isn't really needed. j "Bob Pastorio" > wrote in message ... > Julianne wrote: > > > When I was a kid, my neighbor's Mom was from France. When we wanted mayo > > for a sandwich, she would whip up a couple of egg yolks and lord knows what > > else for our sandwiches. (And we ate it, raw eggs and all.) My > > understanding is that real mayo is made in such a way that very bad things > > could happen if left at room temperature but the stuff we buy off the shelf > > is hardly the same risk. > > You were given bad info. Homemade mayo and commercial mayo are made > essentially the same way. The only differences are that commercial > mayo has pasteurized eggs in it. If you make mayo at home and let it > stand at room temp for a couple days, the pH and water activity levels > will essentially sterilize it. Or, you can pasteurize the eggs at home > if you really want to. <http://www.hi-tm.com/Documents/Mayonnaise.html> > > Pastorio > > > > > j > > "Bob Pastorio" > wrote in message > > ... > > > >>Nancy Young wrote: > >> > >> > >>>Sylvia wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>>>I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might > >>>> > >>>>think if they don't have them. > >>>> > >>>>How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not > >>>> every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some > >>>>does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, > >>>>but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo > >>>>get warm is one risk I can eliminate. > >>> > >>>WHY do you think mayonnaise is a danger? The pasteurized eggs? The > >>>oil? What? And why are any of us here, us precious cargo, who ate > >>>tuna sandwiches at lunch all the time. > >> > >>Mayo isn't processed for sterility when bottled. It's stored and sold > >>at room temperature. It's most assuredly not a good culture medium for > >>bacterial growth as the pH and extremely low water activity contribute > >>to a bacteriostatic environment. Mayo is warm when it's made, when > >>it's warehoused, when it's displayed in stores. > >> > >>It's the stuff served with the mayo that can grow the bacteria. > >> > >>Pastorio > >> > > > > > > > |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
" > wrote in
: > You should tell that to the grocery stores in my area. They could free > up valuable refrigerated space and save thousands. > > candeh > > They already know. Consumers in North America expect eggs to be refridgerated. And won't buy them unchilled. Same with low sudsing detergents...work better but no suds no sales. Applies to many consumer goods, you have to sell what the consumer wants and how he wants it. |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:49:15 GMT, "
> wrote: >On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:25:40 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >wrote: > > >>Eggs can be held at room temperature for days and even weeks. As long >>as they're cooked through at service. >> >You should tell that to the grocery stores in my area. They could free >up valuable refrigerated space and save thousands. > >candeh Not really. You can't guarantee that people will cook eggs thoroughly before eating them. Eg. poached eggs, it's even possible that scrambled eggs won't be cooked sufficiently. It's better to refrigerate the eggs and keep the bacterial load down in case of that rare contaminated egg. Additionally, you are talking about bacterial growth- what about other quality deterioration issues that would be slowed down by refrigeration, especially in the summer? Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Curly Sue wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:49:15 GMT, " > > wrote: > > >>On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:25:40 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >>wrote: >> >>>Eggs can be held at room temperature for days and even weeks. As long >>>as they're cooked through at service. >>> >>You should tell that to the grocery stores in my area. They could free >>up valuable refrigerated space and save thousands. > > Not really. You can't guarantee that people will cook eggs thoroughly > before eating them. Eg. poached eggs, it's even possible that > scrambled eggs won't be cooked sufficiently. It's better to > refrigerate the eggs and keep the bacterial load down in case of that > rare contaminated egg. Additionally, you are talking about bacterial > growth- what about other quality deterioration issues that would be > slowed down by refrigeration, especially in the summer? Yeah, really. Until about 50 years ago, retail eggs weren't refrigerated at all. Country stores around here sell them out of 15- or 30-dozen egg boxes displayed on the sales floors. Eggs will effectively be sterile by the time they reach 160F. They aren't coagulated at that temp. Scrambled eggs will be over 180F. But sterility isn't the need. Only reduction of total bacterial counts. So cooking "thoroughly" isn't necessary. As for guaranteeing that people won't cook eggs thoroughly, it's not the job of the chicken, the farmer, the shipper the store or anybody else to make sure that the consumer protects himself. "Cover thine own ass" is good advice. Pastorio |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:39:29 -0400, Bob Pastorio >
wrote: >Curly Sue wrote: >> On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:49:15 GMT, " >> > wrote: >> >> >>>On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:25:40 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >>>wrote: >>> >>>>Eggs can be held at room temperature for days and even weeks. As long >>>>as they're cooked through at service. >>>> >>>You should tell that to the grocery stores in my area. They could free >>>up valuable refrigerated space and save thousands. >> >> Not really. You can't guarantee that people will cook eggs thoroughly >> before eating them. Eg. poached eggs, it's even possible that >> scrambled eggs won't be cooked sufficiently. It's better to >> refrigerate the eggs and keep the bacterial load down in case of that >> rare contaminated egg. Additionally, you are talking about bacterial >> growth- what about other quality deterioration issues that would be >> slowed down by refrigeration, especially in the summer? > >Yeah, really. Until about 50 years ago, retail eggs weren't >refrigerated at all. Country stores around here sell them out of 15- >or 30-dozen egg boxes displayed on the sales floors. > >Eggs will effectively be sterile by the time they reach 160F. They >aren't coagulated at that temp. Scrambled eggs will be over 180F. But >sterility isn't the need. Only reduction of total bacterial counts. So >cooking "thoroughly" isn't necessary. > >As for guaranteeing that people won't cook eggs thoroughly, it's not >the job of the chicken, the farmer, the shipper the store or anybody >else to make sure that the consumer protects himself. "Cover thine own >ass" is good advice. It's not a question of whether anyone makes sure that a consumer protects her/himself. It's a question of selling or not selling pathogen-laden eggs. It is most certainly the job of the farmer, the shipper, the store, the restaurateur to make sure that they do not foster the growth of bacteria in the food that they handle. No one should sell spoiled food expecting that everything will be fine if the consumer cooks it correctly. "Cover thy ass" is a good advice for people who sell products too. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
> food scientists have shown long ago that food poisonings from
mayo-containing salads are *not* due to the mayo but rather to the other ingredients. Your reference for this piece of absurdity? -- Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995 http://www.SteigerFamily.com Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31 Remove "removethis" from address to reply |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 04:07:31 GMT, Sylvia
> wrote: <failing to ID whoever wrote> > > food scientists have shown long ago that food poisonings from > > mayo-containing salads are *not* due to the mayo but rather to the other > > ingredients. > >Your reference for this piece of absurdity? As I posted a bit earlier in the thread: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/disea...ECSTE99web.pdf |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:26:57 GMT, "
> wrote: >On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 03:14:54 GMT, (Curly >Sue) wrote: > >>On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:39:29 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >>wrote: <snip> >>>As for guaranteeing that people won't cook eggs thoroughly, it's not >>>the job of the chicken, the farmer, the shipper the store or anybody >>>else to make sure that the consumer protects himself. "Cover thine own >>>ass" is good advice. >> >>It's not a question of whether anyone makes sure that a consumer >>protects her/himself. It's a question of selling or not selling >>pathogen-laden eggs. > >Eggs aren't inherently pathogen laden. The chicken doesn't deposit >disease causing agents into the egg. She sure can! In fact, that is the problem: salmonella that gets *in* the egg as it's formed. External salmonella is reduced by washing of the eggs. > The point here is that eggs will >not garner bacteria at room temperature as long as they aren't older >than a few weeks. I'm not a major grocery store purchasing agent or >anything, but at least here in the States I'm pretty sure you can >expect eggs to go from the farm to the grocer in a day or two. >Therefore, they would be safe anyway, because the expiration date on >the carton would occur before the eggs went bad, refrigeration or not. Depends on which state and which season. Growth of bacteria is related to ambient temperature as well as time. Refrigeration keeps the eggs in a safe temperature zone. >> It is most certainly the job of the farmer, the >>shipper, the store, the restaurateur to make sure that they do not >>foster the growth of bacteria in the food that they handle. > >True, but what if it doesn't make any difference? If the expiration >dates occur before the eggs would have gone bad at room temp anyway, >why shouldn't the stores use the refrigerated space for other, more >profitable items? They don't sell eggs out of date. Hell, they >probably couldn't if they wanted to. I don't think the stamping of the >date occurs at the store itself. > >> No one >>should sell spoiled food expecting that everything will be fine if the >>consumer cooks it correctly. >> >Eggzactly! But the stores aren't selling spoiled food, or eggs, >whatever. Right- the eggs are refrigerated. >I've been alternately posting/lurking in this group for a >while now, and Bob seems to know his stuff. As a matter of fact, I'm >going to keep the next eggs I buy on the countertop or on a shelf, >because we use them within a week anyway, and our fridge is always >crowded. If I don't post back, then you can say Nyaa nyaa! I told you >so, Bob! This is not a contest with Bob, nor do I wish to see anything happen to you just so I can say I told you so :> I am quite comfortable with my analysis whether or not anyone I know personally gets salmonellosis. Bob is great on the facts and how things should go if everyone follows the rules. Where we disagree is risk management. Lots of people do play the odds and win, because the odds are in their favor: the incidence of Salmonella contamination is small. Unfortunately the price is high for those that lose. Do a search for +salmonella +scrambled and you'll find several instances of salmonella from scrambled eggs, particularly in food service. I, on the other hand, do not believe that people should become violently ill and die as a result of an Ayn Rand philosophy of public health. Even with refrigeration, eggs are cheap enough. Frankly, it boggles my mind that you're arguing *against* a reasonable public health regulation (that also maintains the quality of the product), for the sake of some hypothetical savings to grocery stores. >>"Cover thy ass" is a good advice for people who sell products too. >> >I agree with you there, but I really do think eggs will remain safe >for consumption if left unrefrigerated for a reasonable length of >time. Provided you don't eat them raw, or majorly undercooked. The >same would hold true for all meat and poultry, I imagine. > >candeh "Eggs will remain safe for consumption"... with qualifications. The problem is those qualifications are not always met. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Curly Sue wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:26:57 GMT, " > > wrote: >=20 >>On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 03:14:54 GMT, (Curly >>Sue) wrote: >> >>>On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 22:39:29 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >>>wrote: >=20 > <snip> >=20 >>>>As for guaranteeing that people won't cook eggs thoroughly, it's not = >>>>the job of the chicken, the farmer, the shipper the store or anybody = >>>>else to make sure that the consumer protects himself. "Cover thine ow= n=20 >>>>ass" is good advice. >>> >>>It's not a question of whether anyone makes sure that a consumer >>>protects her/himself. It's a question of selling or not selling >>>pathogen-laden eggs. >> >>Eggs aren't inherently pathogen laden. The chicken doesn't deposit >>disease causing agents into the egg. >=20 > She sure can! In fact, that is the problem: salmonella that gets > *in* the egg as it's formed. External salmonella is reduced by > washing of the eggs. Actually, it isn't reduced that way. Eggs are washed in a detergent=20 solution that removes any surface dirt and also removes the cuticle.=20 Bacterial contamination happens more frequently through the shell that=20 by ovarian or oviducal contamination. > Depends on which state and which season. Growth of bacteria is > related to ambient temperature as well as time. Refrigeration keeps > the eggs in a safe temperature zone. Refrigeration retards bacterial growth. > This is not a contest with Bob, nor do I wish to see anything happen > to you just so I can say I told you so :> I am quite comfortable > with my analysis whether or not anyone I know personally gets > salmonellosis. Bob is great on the facts and how things should go if > everyone follows the rules. Where we disagree is risk management. > Lots of people do play the odds and win, because the odds are in their > favor: the incidence of Salmonella contamination is small. > Unfortunately the price is high for those that lose. Do a search for > +salmonella +scrambled and you'll find several instances of salmonella > from scrambled eggs, particularly in food service. I, on the other > hand, do not believe that people should become violently ill and die > as a result of an Ayn Rand philosophy of public health. >>I agree with you there, but I really do think eggs will remain safe >>for consumption if left unrefrigerated for a reasonable length of >>time. Provided you don't eat them raw, or majorly undercooked. The >>same would hold true for all meat and poultry, I imagine. >> >>candeh >=20 > "Eggs will remain safe for consumption"... with qualifications. The > problem is those qualifications are not always met. I agree that the real world is a different place than an ideal. Here's a paper on the subject:=20 <http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/Avian/psym986.pdf> And a puzzling quote from it... "Several recent studies related to cooling of eggs have provided=20 further insight into the importance of cooling of eggs. Gast and Beard=20 (1992) orally inoculated laying hens with a phage type 13a strain of=20 SE. (Table 5) One group of eggs from the inoculated hens was sampled=20 on the day of collection, one group was held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C and a = third group was held for 7 days at 25=B0C. Only 3% of the freshly laid=20 eggs and 4% of the eggs held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C were contaminated=20 with SE. However, 16% of the eggs from the 25=B0C were contaminated with = SE. Contaminated eggs from all three groups contained relatively small=20 numbers of SE (less than 10/ml and rarely exceeding l00/ml).=20 Nevertheless, longer storage periods likely would have produced increased numbers. Saeed and Koons (1993) artificially inoculated eggs=20 with SE also observed substantial growth in eggs stored at room=20 temperature for 2-3 days. However, minimal or no growth occurred in=20 refrigerated eggs at 4=B0C." My question is where did the increased contamination in the stored=20 eggs come from if the initial samples only had 3% contamination. Well, be that as it may, in spite of the very small amount of=20 contamination likely, for general purposes, it's probably better to=20 keep your eggs cool, particularly if you don't use them quickly. Pastorio |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
In article >, Sylvia
> wrote: > > I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might > think if they don't have them. > > How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not > every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some > does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, > but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo > get warm is one risk I can eliminate. Well, I didn't exactly say send your kids with warm food and hope for the best. I just don't think it's as huge a risk as modern people make it. I even let my kids eat cookie dough! Not data, just an example, but my husband will eat a cheese stick that was in our eldest son's backpack all day, he has far fewer stomach problems than I do, and he's willing to eat foods that I would toss. Every single child I knew growing up survived the various sandwiches, salads, eggs, etc in their lunches. The only kids I know who died, did so in accidents. I just think we are overly sterile as a society now. Regards, Ranee -- Remove do not and spam to e-mail me. "The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man." Acts 17:24 |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:10:27 -0400, Bob Pastorio >
wrote: >Curly Sue wrote: >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:26:57 GMT, " >> > wrote: >>>Eggs aren't inherently pathogen laden. The chicken doesn't deposit >>>disease causing agents into the egg. >>=20 >> She sure can! In fact, that is the problem: salmonella that gets >> *in* the egg as it's formed. External salmonella is reduced by >> washing of the eggs. > >Actually, it isn't reduced that way. Yes it is. :> (BTW, what's with all the "=20" in your post? Did you change news clients?) > Eggs are washed in a detergent=20 >solution that removes any surface dirt and also removes the cuticle.=20 And reduces external salmonella that comes from fecal contamination after the egg is laid. >Bacterial contamination happens more frequently through the shell that=20 >by ovarian or oviducal contamination. Interesting. That's another dimension to the problem. >>=20 >> "Eggs will remain safe for consumption"... with qualifications. The >> problem is those qualifications are not always met. > >I agree that the real world is a different place than an ideal. > >Here's a paper on the subject:=20 ><http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/Avian/psym986.pdf> >And a puzzling quote from it... >"Several recent studies related to cooling of eggs have provided=20 >further insight into the importance of cooling of eggs. Gast and Beard=20 >(1992) orally inoculated laying hens with a phage type 13a strain of=20 >SE. (Table 5) One group of eggs from the inoculated hens was sampled=20 >on the day of collection, one group was held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C and a = > >third group was held for 7 days at 25=B0C. Only 3% of the freshly laid=20 >eggs and 4% of the eggs held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C were contaminated=20 >with SE. However, 16% of the eggs from the 25=B0C were contaminated with = > >SE. Contaminated eggs from all three groups contained relatively small=20 >numbers of SE (less than 10/ml and rarely exceeding l00/ml).=20 >Nevertheless, longer storage periods likely would have produced >increased numbers. Saeed and Koons (1993) artificially inoculated eggs=20 >with SE also observed substantial growth in eggs stored at room=20 >temperature for 2-3 days. However, minimal or no growth occurred in=20 >refrigerated eggs at 4=B0C." > >My question is where did the increased contamination in the stored=20 >eggs come from if the initial samples only had 3% contamination. Later on it said: "These authors further found that refrigerated storage (4 C) was necessary to reduce growth and rate of penetration into the egg. Some researchers are now investigating new cryogenic approaches to rapid chilling of shell eggs." I.e., refrigeration reduced rate of penetration of SE into the eggs (as well as growth). Although they didn't say it, I assume that their determination of "contamination" was based on internal content of salmonella so the increased contamination came from movement of the bacteria from outside the egg to inside. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Curly Sue wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:10:27 -0400, Bob Pastorio > > wrote: > > >>Curly Sue wrote: >> >>>On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:26:57 GMT, " > wrote: > > >>>>Eggs aren't inherently pathogen laden. The chicken doesn't deposit >>>>disease causing agents into the egg. >>> >>>=20 >>>She sure can! In fact, that is the problem: salmonella that gets >>>*in* the egg as it's formed. External salmonella is reduced by >>>washing of the eggs. >> >>Actually, it isn't reduced that way. > > Yes it is. :> > > (BTW, what's with all the "=20" in your post? Did you change news > clients?) Your quote here is the only post of mine where I see the "=20" stuff. I've posted in other groups today and none shows the "=20" thingy. >>Eggs are washed in a detergent=20 >>solution that removes any surface dirt and also removes the cuticle.=20 > > And reduces external salmonella that comes from fecal contamination > after the egg is laid. > >>Bacterial contamination happens more frequently through the shell that=20 >>by ovarian or oviducal contamination. > > Interesting. That's another dimension to the problem. > >>>"Eggs will remain safe for consumption"... with qualifications. The >>>problem is those qualifications are not always met. >> >>I agree that the real world is a different place than an ideal. >> >>Here's a paper on the subject:=20 >><http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/Avian/psym986.pdf> >>And a puzzling quote from it... >>"Several recent studies related to cooling of eggs have provided=20 >>further insight into the importance of cooling of eggs. Gast and Beard=20 >>(1992) orally inoculated laying hens with a phage type 13a strain of=20 >>SE. (Table 5) One group of eggs from the inoculated hens was sampled=20 >>on the day of collection, one group was held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C and a = >> >>third group was held for 7 days at 25=B0C. Only 3% of the freshly laid=20 >>eggs and 4% of the eggs held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C were contaminated=20 >>with SE. However, 16% of the eggs from the 25=B0C were contaminated with = >> >>SE. Contaminated eggs from all three groups contained relatively small=20 >>numbers of SE (less than 10/ml and rarely exceeding l00/ml).=20 >>Nevertheless, longer storage periods likely would have produced >>increased numbers. Saeed and Koons (1993) artificially inoculated eggs=20 >>with SE also observed substantial growth in eggs stored at room=20 >>temperature for 2-3 days. However, minimal or no growth occurred in=20 >>refrigerated eggs at 4=B0C." >> >>My question is where did the increased contamination in the stored=20 >>eggs come from if the initial samples only had 3% contamination. > > Later on it said: > > "These authors further found that refrigerated storage (4 C) was > necessary to reduce growth and rate of penetration into the egg. Some > researchers are now investigating new cryogenic approaches to rapid > chilling of shell eggs." > > I.e., refrigeration reduced rate of penetration of SE into the eggs > (as well as growth). Although they didn't say it, I assume that > their determination of "contamination" was based on internal content > of salmonella so the increased contamination came from movement of the > bacteria from outside the egg to inside. They leave a lot to conjecture about in the paper. I talked with my scientist wife about that whole business of greater levels of contamination depending on how stored and she said, "Huh? How did the new bacteria get into the eggs so that storage was the determinant in increase?" Same question I asked. If washing the eggs got rid of surface bacterial contamination, where did the "rate of penetration" even figure in the process? Lots of questions. Pastorio > Sue(tm) > Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:30:15 -0400, Bob Pastorio >
wrote: >Curly Sue wrote: > >> On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:10:27 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >> wrote: <snip> >>>Here's a paper on the subject:=20 >>><http://animalscience.ucdavis.edu/Avian/psym986.pdf> >>>And a puzzling quote from it... >>>"Several recent studies related to cooling of eggs have provided=20 >>>further insight into the importance of cooling of eggs. Gast and Beard=20 >>>(1992) orally inoculated laying hens with a phage type 13a strain of=20 >>>SE. (Table 5) One group of eggs from the inoculated hens was sampled=20 >>>on the day of collection, one group was held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C and a = >>> >>>third group was held for 7 days at 25=B0C. Only 3% of the freshly laid=20 >>>eggs and 4% of the eggs held for 7 days at 7.2=B0C were contaminated=20 >>>with SE. However, 16% of the eggs from the 25=B0C were contaminated with = >>> >>>SE. Contaminated eggs from all three groups contained relatively small=20 >>>numbers of SE (less than 10/ml and rarely exceeding l00/ml).=20 >>>Nevertheless, longer storage periods likely would have produced >>>increased numbers. Saeed and Koons (1993) artificially inoculated eggs=20 >>>with SE also observed substantial growth in eggs stored at room=20 >>>temperature for 2-3 days. However, minimal or no growth occurred in=20 >>>refrigerated eggs at 4=B0C." >>> >>>My question is where did the increased contamination in the stored=20 >>>eggs come from if the initial samples only had 3% contamination. >> >> Later on it said: >> >> "These authors further found that refrigerated storage (4 C) was >> necessary to reduce growth and rate of penetration into the egg. Some >> researchers are now investigating new cryogenic approaches to rapid >> chilling of shell eggs." >> >> I.e., refrigeration reduced rate of penetration of SE into the eggs >> (as well as growth). Although they didn't say it, I assume that >> their determination of "contamination" was based on internal content >> of salmonella so the increased contamination came from movement of the >> bacteria from outside the egg to inside. > >They leave a lot to conjecture about in the paper. Well, yes. It's a review paper, in which case the literature cited is often not discussed in detail. The reader is left to obtain the original papers to clear up specific questions. > I talked with my >scientist wife about that whole business of greater levels of >contamination depending on how stored and she said, "Huh? How did the >new bacteria get into the eggs so that storage was the determinant in >increase?" Same question I asked. And they answered it. You said yourself: "Bacterial contamination happens more frequently through the shell that=20 by ovarian or oviducal contamination." The bacteria are on the exterior of the shell at the beginning of the study. As the study progresses, more move to the interior where they are counted as contamination. Hence, an increase in contamination with storage. >If washing the eggs got rid of surface bacterial contamination, where >did the "rate of penetration" even figure in the process? Lots of >questions. I didn't say that washing "gets rid of" bacterial contamination, it reduces it. In any case, the article didn't mention if the original study washed the eggs. To get the details, you'd have to pull the original paper. Nonetheless, I don't think it's so unclear what they're saying. Sue(tm) Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself! |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 19:29:21 GMT, "
> wrote: >On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 13:10:27 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >wrote: >> >>Well, be that as it may, in spite of the very small amount of >>contamination likely, for general purposes, it's probably better to >>keep your eggs cool, particularly if you don't use them quickly. > >You didn't have to reverse your position, it's not like my widowed >spouse would have sued ya, or anything! But I know what you mean. >Still, as long as I know I'll use the eggs within 4-5 days, I won't >have a problem with leaving them at a reasonable room temp. I really >don't see why not. The general consensus here at RFC is to throw stuff >out if there is any doubt at all. I think it illustrates the different >kinds of people that post here. Some have more income than others. In my case, and I think it *may* be the prevailing rfc position, if I have genuine doubts, particularly about a long-stored or unrefridgerated food thing, I toss it because I know I won't be happy trying to eat or serve it. If it smells "funny," I toss. A lesser consideration in my case is 'official' food safety guidelines. While I try to follow most of them, I don't say "ohmigod, I left the spaghetti sauce 'cooling' on the stove for 4 hrs -- must toss," or "the sell-by date was yesterday...." Experience with cutting those particular corners hasn't been catastrophic. I understand that those who *have* suffered genuine food poisoning are much more rigorous. |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
"Bob Pastorio"
<snip> : : If washing the eggs got rid of surface bacterial contamination, where : did the "rate of penetration" even figure in the process? Lots of : questions. : : Pastorio : ===== Maybe from the contamination that started before the washing (that would then no longer be affected by exterior washing...)? I dunno. Cyndi <Remove a "b" to reply> |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003 14:49:15 GMT, "
> wrote: >On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 11:25:40 -0400, Bob Pastorio > >wrote: > > >>Eggs can be held at room temperature for days and even weeks. As long >>as they're cooked through at service. >> >You should tell that to the grocery stores in my area. They could free >up valuable refrigerated space and save thousands. Most (all?) states Departments of Agriculture have adopted laws requiring that eggs be refridgerated at 45F or below. Not sure if ever made Federal law (yet). -sw |
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Don't let meat or mayo get warm
Ranee Mueller wrote: > In article >, Sylvia > > wrote: > > >> > I don't think that it's as big a risk to their health as we might >>think if they don't have them. >> >>How big a risk to your children's health is acceptable to you? Sure not >> every mayonnaise that gets warm grows poisonous bacteria, but some >>does. There are enough risks to my kids' health that I can't control, >>but by gum I'm going to minimize what I can -- and letting meat or mayo >>get warm is one risk I can eliminate. > > > Well, I didn't exactly say send your kids with warm food and hope for > the best. I just don't think it's as huge a risk as modern people make > it. I even let my kids eat cookie dough! Not data, just an example, > but my husband will eat a cheese stick that was in our eldest son's > backpack all day, he has far fewer stomach problems than I do, and he's > willing to eat foods that I would toss. Every single child I knew > growing up survived the various sandwiches, salads, eggs, etc in their > lunches. The only kids I know who died, did so in accidents. I just > think we are overly sterile as a society now. > > Regards, > Ranee > Our cleanliness will lead to our deaths. More and more medications are coming up worthless as we insist on taking shots/pills for everything. -- Alan "If you reject the food, ignore the customs, fear the religion, and avoid the people, you might better stay home." --James Michener |
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