I was listening to a podcast of one of Lynne Rosetto Kasper's broadcasts
from Italy. She mentioned that in Italy, all the food must be labeled
with the location where the food was raised or caught and also the
grade. Seems like we should be pressuring our legislators to require
that in the US, especially the location of origin. It would probably be
one heck of a battle, given the monetary influence of the US food lobby
on Congress, but well worth the effort, no?

Emma

"Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
...
>
> I was listening to a podcast of one of Lynne Rosetto Kasper's broadcasts
> from Italy. She mentioned that in Italy, all the food must be labeled
> with the location where the food was raised or caught and also the
> grade. Seems like we should be pressuring our legislators to require
> that in the US, especially the location of origin. It would probably be
> one heck of a battle, given the monetary influence of the US food lobby
> on Congress, but well worth the effort, no?
>
> Emma


Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits & berries
from South America, since many people (like me) know that other countries
may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By "labels", I mean
that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand write "From Chile",
or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I suspect this began
because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is unusual and might've
dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.

I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the information,
especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort. They know where the
stuff comes from.

"Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With fish,
it doesn't matter much. There aren't many places in the ocean where the
water's pristine any more. If you saw "Caught in the Long Island Sound",
would you know what pollutants were in the fish? How about "Bay of Fundy"?
"Indian Ocean"?

In article >,
"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:

> "Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > I was listening to a podcast of one of Lynne Rosetto Kasper's broadcasts
> > from Italy. She mentioned that in Italy, all the food must be labeled
> > with the location where the food was raised or caught and also the
> > grade....
>
> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits & berries
> from South America, since many people (like me) know that other countries
> may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By "labels", I mean
> that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand write "From Chile",
> or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I suspect this began
> because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is unusual and might've
> dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.

> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the information,
> especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort. They know where the
> stuff comes from.

Good idea. Here, produce is rarely marked for location at the regular
groceries--- meat & fish, never except farm-raised or wild-caught. In
the summer, local produce sometimes has a sign that says it is locally
grown. Whole Foods (quite far for me) often gives the location but not
always. I'm going to ask our grocery if they will but I'd be very
surprised if they did.

> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With fish,
> it doesn't matter much. There aren't many places in the ocean where the
> water's pristine any more. If you saw "Caught in the Long Island Sound",
> would you know what pollutants were in the fish? How about "Bay of Fundy"?
> "Indian Ocean"?

Vegetables and fruits are "raised" too btw. The more local a food
is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the less likely it's been
over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc. And there are other
environmental advantages if one is concerned about that sort of thing.

>
> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits &
> berries from South America, since many people (like me) know that other
> countries may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By
> "labels", I mean that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand
> write "From Chile", or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I
> suspect this began because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is
> unusual and might've dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.
>
> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the
> information, especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort. They
> know where the stuff comes from.
>
> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With
> fish, it doesn't matter much.

It does in terms of sustainability, afaik. Line caught salmon is better for
the environment. And farmed salmon is fed things that are much worse than
what wild salmon eat. In terms of sustainability, medications, variety,
coloring.

Food miles matter to me, as well.

So what origins of food mean to you can depennd on what you find importatn
as a consumer.

There aren't many places in the ocean where the
> water's pristine any more. If you saw "Caught in the Long Island Sound",
> would you know what pollutants were in the fish? How about "Bay of Fundy"?
> "Indian Ocean"?
>

"Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>
>> "Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > I was listening to a podcast of one of Lynne Rosetto Kasper's
>> > broadcasts
>> > from Italy. She mentioned that in Italy, all the food must be labeled
>> > with the location where the food was raised or caught and also the
>> > grade....
>>
>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits &
>> berries
>> from South America, since many people (like me) know that other countries
>> may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By "labels", I
>> mean
>> that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand write "From
>> Chile",
>> or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I suspect this began
>> because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is unusual and might've
>> dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.
>
>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the
>> information,
>> especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort. They know where
>> the
>> stuff comes from.
>
> Good idea. Here, produce is rarely marked for location at the regular
> groceries--- meat & fish, never except farm-raised or wild-caught. In
> the summer, local produce sometimes has a sign that says it is locally
> grown. Whole Foods (quite far for me) often gives the location but not
> always. I'm going to ask our grocery if they will but I'd be very
> surprised if they did.

Since the store buys the stuff, an actual human being knows where it came
from, so accept no bullshit from them if they claim "it's too hard figure
out". :-)



>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With
>> fish,
>> it doesn't matter much. There aren't many places in the ocean where the
>> water's pristine any more. If you saw "Caught in the Long Island Sound",
>> would you know what pollutants were in the fish? How about "Bay of
>> Fundy"?
>> "Indian Ocean"?
>
> Vegetables and fruits are "raised" too btw. The more local a food
> is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the less likely it's been
> over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc. And there are other
> environmental advantages if one is concerned about that sort of thing.

Where it's grown has pretty much no connection to how much or little it's
been poisoned. All the other factors are true, though. And, it takes less
petroleum to get them to you.

"Jke" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>
>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits &
>> berries from South America, since many people (like me) know that other
>> countries may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By
>> "labels", I mean that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand
>> write "From Chile", or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I
>> suspect this began because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is
>> unusual and might've dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.
>>
>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the
>> information, especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort. They
>> know where the stuff comes from.
>>
>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With
>> fish, it doesn't matter much.
>
> It does in terms of sustainability, afaik. Line caught salmon is better
> for the environment. And farmed salmon is fed things that are much worse
> than what wild salmon eat. In terms of sustainability, medications,
> variety, coloring.

OK - that's true, and the origin should be revealed for another reason: Some
stores are charging $10-$12 a pound for farm raised salmon, which is a
crime, as far as I'm concerned. Here, I have a choice of line-caught for
that price, or farm-raised for about half that most of the time.


> Food miles matter to me, as well.

I can't think about seafood that way. I'm in upstate NY. Food miles are
*always* high for seafood.

Jke wrote on Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:28:36 +0100:


??>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially
??>> fruits & berries from South America, since many people
??>> (like me) know that other countries may use some strange
??>> pesticides that are not used here. By "labels", I mean
??>> that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand
??>> write "From Chile", or whatever. It's consistent from
??>> store to store. I suspect this began because customers
??>> wanted it, although Wegman's is unusual and might've
??>> dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.
??>>
??>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide
??>> the information, especially since it involves virtually NO
??>> extra effort. They know where the stuff comes from.
??>>
??>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish,
??>> right? With fish, it doesn't matter much.

J> It does in terms of sustainability, afaik. Line caught
J> salmon is better for the environment. And farmed salmon is
J> fed things that are much worse than what wild salmon eat. In
J> terms of sustainability, medications, variety, coloring.

J> Food miles matter to me, as well.

J> So what origins of food mean to you can depennd on what you
J> find importatn as a consumer.

I've not been very confident about even Trader Joe's when I
found that their Atlantic salmon was marked "Product of Chile".
Chile's Atlantic coast is miniscule and I don't approve of
trying to raise Salmo where Otorhyncus is the genus.


James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not

>>>
>>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits &
>>> berries from South America, since many people (like me) know that other
>>> countries may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By
>>> "labels", I mean that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand
>>> write "From Chile", or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I
>>> suspect this began because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is
>>> unusual and might've dreamt it up because they're big on full
>>> disclosure.
>>>
>>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the
>>> information, especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort.
>>> They know where the stuff comes from.
>>>
>>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With
>>> fish, it doesn't matter much.
>>
>> It does in terms of sustainability, afaik. Line caught salmon is better
>> for the environment. And farmed salmon is fed things that are much worse
>> than what wild salmon eat. In terms of sustainability, medications,
>> variety, coloring.
>
> OK - that's true, and the origin should be revealed for another reason:
> Some stores are charging $10-$12 a pound for farm raised salmon, which is
> a crime, as far as I'm concerned. Here, I have a choice of line-caught for
> that price, or farm-raised for about half that most of the time.

Wow. That is definitely worth paying attetion to.
>
>
>> Food miles matter to me, as well.
>
> I can't think about seafood that way. I'm in upstate NY. Food miles are
> *always* high for seafood.

Salmon may not be the best product as an example for food miles
>
>

"James Silverton" <not.jim.silverton.at.comcast.not> schreef in bericht
...
> Jke wrote on Sat, 3 Mar 2007 20:28:36 +0100:
>
>
> ??>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially
> ??>> fruits & berries from South America, since many people
> ??>> (like me) know that other countries may use some strange
> ??>> pesticides that are not used here. By "labels", I mean
> ??>> that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand
> ??>> write "From Chile", or whatever. It's consistent from
> ??>> store to store. I suspect this began because customers
> ??>> wanted it, although Wegman's is unusual and might've
> ??>> dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.
> ??>>
> ??>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide
> ??>> the information, especially since it involves virtually NO
> ??>> extra effort. They know where the stuff comes from.
> ??>>
> ??>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish,
> ??>> right? With fish, it doesn't matter much.
>
> J> It does in terms of sustainability, afaik. Line caught
> J> salmon is better for the environment. And farmed salmon is
> J> fed things that are much worse than what wild salmon eat. In
> J> terms of sustainability, medications, variety, coloring.
>
> J> Food miles matter to me, as well.
>
> J> So what origins of food mean to you can depennd on what you
> J> find importatn as a consumer.
>
> I've not been very confident about even Trader Joe's when I found that
> their Atlantic salmon was marked "Product of Chile". Chile's Atlantic
> coast is miniscule and I don't approve of trying to raise Salmo where
> Otorhyncus is the genus.
>
>
That's a good point. I was not aware of that issue.

"Jke" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>>
>>>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits &
>>>> berries from South America, since many people (like me) know that other
>>>> countries may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By
>>>> "labels", I mean that on the big price sign next to the plums, they
>>>> hand write "From Chile", or whatever. It's consistent from store to
>>>> store. I suspect this began because customers wanted it, although
>>>> Wegman's is unusual and might've dreamt it up because they're big on
>>>> full disclosure.
>>>>
>>>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the
>>>> information, especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort.
>>>> They know where the stuff comes from.
>>>>
>>>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With
>>>> fish, it doesn't matter much.
>>>
>>> It does in terms of sustainability, afaik. Line caught salmon is better
>>> for the environment. And farmed salmon is fed things that are much worse
>>> than what wild salmon eat. In terms of sustainability, medications,
>>> variety, coloring.
>>
>> OK - that's true, and the origin should be revealed for another reason:
>> Some stores are charging $10-$12 a pound for farm raised salmon, which is
>> a crime, as far as I'm concerned. Here, I have a choice of line-caught
>> for that price, or farm-raised for about half that most of the time.
>
> Wow. That is definitely worth paying attetion to.


Why? Because my grocer is honest? I know. It's spooky. But, Wegman's assumes
their customers are intelligent.



>>> Food miles matter to me, as well.
>>
>> I can't think about seafood that way. I'm in upstate NY. Food miles are
>> *always* high for seafood.
>
> Salmon may not be the best product as an example for food miles

Right. So, which fishies would you like to discuss?

<Alan > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 03 Mar 2007 20:09:05 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
> > wrote:
>
>>"Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> >
>>>> > I was listening to a podcast of one of Lynne Rosetto Kasper's
>>>> > broadcasts
>>>> > from Italy. She mentioned that in Italy, all the food must be
>>>> > labeled
>>>> > with the location where the food was raised or caught and also the
>>>> > grade....
>>>>
>>>> Wegman's (my local chain) labels lots of stuff, especially fruits &
>>>> berries
>>>> from South America, since many people (like me) know that other
>>>> countries
>>>> may use some strange pesticides that are not used here. By "labels", I
>>>> mean
>>>> that on the big price sign next to the plums, they hand write "From
>>>> Chile",
>>>> or whatever. It's consistent from store to store. I suspect this began
>>>> because customers wanted it, although Wegman's is unusual and might've
>>>> dreamt it up because they're big on full disclosure.
>>>
>>>> I think you'd be better off getting your stores to provide the
>>>> information,
>>>> especially since it involves virtually NO extra effort. They know where
>>>> the
>>>> stuff comes from.
>>>
>>> Good idea. Here, produce is rarely marked for location at the regular
>>> groceries--- meat & fish, never except farm-raised or wild-caught. In
>>> the summer, local produce sometimes has a sign that says it is locally
>>> grown. Whole Foods (quite far for me) often gives the location but not
>>> always. I'm going to ask our grocery if they will but I'd be very
>>> surprised if they did.
>>
>>Since the store buys the stuff, an actual human being knows where it came
>>from, so accept no bullshit from them if they claim "it's too hard figure
>>out". :-)
>>
>>
>>
>>>> "Raised or caught" - now we're talking about meat & fish, right? With
>>>> fish,
>>>> it doesn't matter much. There aren't many places in the ocean where the
>>>> water's pristine any more. If you saw "Caught in the Long Island
>>>> Sound",
>>>> would you know what pollutants were in the fish? How about "Bay of
>>>> Fundy"?
>>>> "Indian Ocean"?
>>>
>>> Vegetables and fruits are "raised" too btw. The more local a food
>>> is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the less likely it's been
>>> over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc. And there are other
>>> environmental advantages if one is concerned about that sort of thing.
>>
>>Where it's grown has pretty much no connection to how much or little it's
>>been poisoned. All the other factors are true, though. And, it takes less
>>petroleum to get them to you.
>>
> I'm not so sure about that.
>
> Most stores get their produce from a wholesaler, and the
> wholesaler can tell the store anything they feel like about
> the products.
>
> I doubt the store really knows. . .
>
> Alan Moorman
>

Actually, most stores in the U.S. do NOT get the bulk of their products from
wholesalers, aside from health & beauty care items, locally baked bread, and
greeting cards. And, no matter what the wholesalers say, it's not related in
any way to what Emma said, which was that if the produce is locally grown,
it's less likely to be hosed with nasty chemicals.

In article >,
"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:

> And, no matter what the wholesalers say, it's not related in
> any way to what Emma said, which was that if the produce is locally grown,
> it's less likely to be hosed with nasty chemicals.

Hold on there, Bedroom. Those were neither my words nor context. What
I said was:

"The more local a food is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the
less likely it's been over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc."

Note that the key word there is "repeatedly". And, while I was thinking
mainly of substances used during shipping to retard ripening and the
like, I would also posit that the consumer will have a far easier time
finding out how locally grown foods are raised.

Emma

Emma Thackery > wrote in
:

> Note that the key word there is "repeatedly". And, while I
> was thinking mainly of substances used during shipping to
> retard ripening and the like, I would also posit that the
> consumer will have a far easier time finding out how
> locally grown foods are raised.

why do you think that?
i suspect you *might* have better luck finding out how
locally raised produce is treated if you were buying it from a
farmer's market or direct from the farm, but not if it's being
sold at the local grocery.
i do have a caveat for folks buying from big 'farmstands'
though... *ask where the food is coming from!*. just because
<for example> Wilson Farm has a big converted barn farmstand
with all kinds of nice "fresh" produce, pies, jams &
jellies... it doesn't mean they actually *grew or produced*
any of it. there are regional produce markets, wholesale only,
where stores &, yes, farmstands go in the wee hours of the
morning to buy produce. some is 'local' & lots is imported.
you'll never know because Big Agribusiness killed the part of
the 2001 farm bill that required country of origin labelling
on all meat & produce. they felt it would hurt their business.
consumers pay more for things they think are local...
and while i'm ranting, don't buy Horizon organic milk
products. while they produce 70% of the 'organic' milk in the
US, they are a feedlot only operation that flouts the laws
that specificly require 'organic' milk producers to pasture
thier cows. they have several thousand (around 10,000) head in
a desert. no pasture, no outside access. complain to your
congress critters about properly enforcing USDA organic rules
& boycott Horizon/Cornucopia/Dean Foods. it is completely
unfair to the small farmers who play by the rules to allow Big
Agribusiness to flout the laws.
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

"Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>
>> And, no matter what the wholesalers say, it's not related in
>> any way to what Emma said, which was that if the produce is locally
>> grown,
>> it's less likely to be hosed with nasty chemicals.
>
> Hold on there, Bedroom. Those were neither my words nor context. What
> I said was:
>
> "The more local a food is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the
> less likely it's been over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc."
>
> Note that the key word there is "repeatedly". And, while I was thinking
> mainly of substances used during shipping to retard ripening and the
> like, I would also posit that the consumer will have a far easier time
> finding out how locally grown foods are raised.
>
> Emma


I'm focusing on "local" and "less likely to be repeatedly sprayed". The
chemicals used to retard ripening are the least of your worries. Those
chemicals are relatively benign compared to pesticides, which are complete
unknowns and always will be. The likelihood of produce being sprayed in Ohio
is pretty much identical to the same produce grown in Florida.

In article >,
enigma > wrote:

> Emma Thackery > wrote in
> :
>
> > Note that the key word there is "repeatedly". And, while I
> > was thinking mainly of substances used during shipping to
> > retard ripening and the like, I would also posit that the
> > consumer will have a far easier time finding out how
> > locally grown foods are raised.
>
> why do you think that?

The closer something is, the easier it is acquire information about it
or even visit the source. One need not travel far and it is more likely
that local media, libraries, extension services, gardener's clubs, food
co-ops, blogs, or other sources may have information about it. Seems
pretty simple and logical to me.

> i suspect you *might* have better luck finding out how
> locally raised produce is treated if you were buying it from a
> farmer's market or direct from the farm, but not if it's being
> sold at the local grocery.

I made no distinction in my previous post (the one to which you are
responding) but I certainly agree. My experience is that, except for
Whole Foods type groceries, most really don't even care how the food is
produced and shipped or even tastes as long as it looks nice and is
profitable.

Another thing I've noticed more in recent years is how rapidly produce
degrades once it leaves those rigid environmental controls and how
utterly tasteless it may be despite how pretty it looks. This has been
obvious for many years with tomatoes but now lots of other produce falls
into the same pretty-but-tasteless category. When a fruit or vegetable
has been artificially kept from ripening for weeks or even months,
seemingly held in "stasis", it's a race to get it on the table before it
rots.

<snip important warning about produce stands>

> and while i'm ranting, don't buy Horizon organic milk
> products. while they produce 70% of the 'organic' milk in the
> US, they are a feedlot only operation that flouts the laws
> that specificly require 'organic' milk producers to pasture
> thier cows. they have several thousand (around 10,000) head in
> a desert. no pasture, no outside access. complain to your
> congress critters about properly enforcing USDA organic rules
> & boycott Horizon/Cornucopia/Dean Foods. it is completely
> unfair to the small farmers who play by the rules to allow Big
> Agribusiness to flout the laws.

Whole Foods still carries Horizon. And I wholeheartedly agree. We
really need to work on these increasing food problems. Consumer
interests have been trampled in recent years by excessive (and
unnecessary) industrialization of food production.

Emma

In article >,
"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:

> "Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
> >
> >> And, no matter what the wholesalers say, it's not related in any
> >> way to what Emma said, which was that if the produce is locally
> >> grown, it's less likely to be hosed with nasty chemicals.
> >
> > Hold on there, Bedroom. Those were neither my words nor context. What
> > I said was:
> >
> > "The more local a food is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the
> > less likely it's been over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc."
> >
> > Note that the key word there is "repeatedly". And, while I was thinking
> > mainly of substances used during shipping to retard ripening and the
> > like, I would also posit that the consumer will have a far easier time
> > finding out how locally grown foods are raised.

> I'm focusing on "local" and "less likely to be repeatedly sprayed". The
> chemicals used to retard ripening are the least of your worries.

I'm aware of that and I never indicated otherwise. But the focus of my
original comment was the shipping cycle. You can't argue that I know
nothing about or was wrong about oranges simply because I only discussed
apples.

[...]

"Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>
>> "Emma Thackery" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> And, no matter what the wholesalers say, it's not related in any
>> >> way to what Emma said, which was that if the produce is locally
>> >> grown, it's less likely to be hosed with nasty chemicals.
>> >
>> > Hold on there, Bedroom. Those were neither my words nor context. What
>> > I said was:
>> >
>> > "The more local a food is, the more likely it is to be fresher and the
>> > less likely it's been over-handled, bruised, repeatedly sprayed, etc."
>> >
>> > Note that the key word there is "repeatedly". And, while I was
>> > thinking
>> > mainly of substances used during shipping to retard ripening and the
>> > like, I would also posit that the consumer will have a far easier time
>> > finding out how locally grown foods are raised.
>
>> I'm focusing on "local" and "less likely to be repeatedly sprayed". The
>> chemicals used to retard ripening are the least of your worries.
>
> I'm aware of that and I never indicated otherwise. But the focus of my
> original comment was the shipping cycle. You can't argue that I know
> nothing about or was wrong about oranges simply because I only discussed
> apples.
>


I *could* argue that, but it would just **** you off, which isn't my goal.
Maybe later. :-)