Any thoughts on the following:

I'm in the market for a compact-model espresso machine,
one that reliably produces high-quality espresso, in
small amounts (say one or two espresso cups at a time).
It does not need to have an integral milk steamer or
coffee grinder (although separately, I'm interested in
knowing what sort of grinder is best, as I know my
current coffee grinder cannot grind the stuff fine enough).

Any idea what I should buy among currently available
models?

Thanks,

Steve

(Steve Pope) wrote:
> Any thoughts on the following:
>
> I'm in the market for a compact-model espresso machine,
> one that reliably produces high-quality espresso, in
> small amounts (say one or two espresso cups at a time).
> It does not need to have an integral milk steamer or
> coffee grinder (although separately, I'm interested in
> knowing what sort of grinder is best, as I know my
> current coffee grinder cannot grind the stuff fine enough).
>
> Any idea what I should buy among currently available
> models?

No matter how much you spend nothing will perform better than this:
http://www.amazon.com/Bialetti-Moka-...4527692&sr=8-4

Next you need good water (coffee is 99.999pct H20) without good water
no matter how much you spend on coffee it will taste like crap.

You need a decent burr mill, how much you spend depends on your
budget... after a point (about $150) they don't get noticably better
no matter how much more you spend.

Of course you can always go cultish-egoist, just open your wallet,
open your cheeks, spread em wide.

Sheldon > wrote:

>No matter how much you spend nothing will perform better than this:
>http://www.amazon.com/Bialetti-Moka-...4527692&sr=8-4

Heh. The apartment we just stayed in, in Rome, had a similar
unit in its kitchen and it worked quite well.

>Next you need good water (coffee is 99.999pct H20) without good water
>no matter how much you spend on coffee it will taste like crap.

Have a Brita filter unit.

>You need a decent burr mill, how much you spend depends on your
>budget... after a point (about $150) they don't get noticably better
>no matter how much more you spend.

Right, the burr grinder is on my list. Anything in particular
I should look for?

Steve

(Steve Pope) wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
> >No matter how much you spend nothing will perform better than this:
> >http://www.amazon.com/Bialetti-Moka-...000CF3Q6/ref=p....
>
> Heh. *The apartment we just stayed in, in Rome, had a similar
> unit in its kitchen and it worked quite well.

Read the cutomer reviews.

Of course if you have more dollars than brain cells you can go for one
of the *machines*, all useless bells and whistles, and there is no
limit to how much jewelry can be hung on to achieve *the look*,
remember, it's only appearance, serves no function whatsoever.

> >Next you need good water (coffee is 99.999pct H20) without good water
> >no matter how much you spend on coffee it will taste like crap.
>
> Have a Brita filter unit.

Better than nothing, but a reverse osmosis filter is best... and never
set up any coffee brewer the night before, the water will go stale
(will lose oxygen, and oxygen is what permits you to taste.

> >You need a decent burr mill, how much you spend depends on your
> >budget... after a point (about $150) they don't get noticably better
> >no matter how much more you spend.
>
> Right, the burr grinder is on my list. *Anything in particular
> I should look for?

I have a Solis Maestro, wasn't expensive (about $140) and works like a
charm... been used every day since 2000, still works like new, and
requires very little attention, just clean the burr every few months.
All burr grinders are kinda messy (static electricity), some say
adding a few drops of water with the beans is a remedy, don't you
believe it... best to have a small brush handy to sweep up the stray
grounds. Don't buy any coffee brewer with a built in mill, not unless
you don't mind spending your life cleaning... plus none of those
contain a very good mill, and when any part of a combo unit dies it's
all trash.

You can spend a lot more if you're into *the look* but then when it
dies you'll just have a much more expensive pile of junk.

http://www.aabreecoffee.com/Solis.cf...oogleAAB-Solis

Sheldon

In article . com>,
"Sheldon" > wrote:

> No matter how much you spend nothing will perform better than this:
> http://www.amazon.com/Bialetti-Moka-...ref=pd_bbs_4/1
> 02-2462282-7529725?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1174527692&sr=8-4

Sure, and there's no difference between Camembert and Gouda.

Sheldon persists in this disinformation campaign. There's nothing wrong
with Moka pots. Zillions of Italians use them. I have one, too. I
also have a pump espresso machine. Most people with more than two
functioning tastebuds can tell the difference between the coffee made in
these devices. A food chemist can explain that they are very different
products, produced under very different thermodynamic conditions.

> Of course you can always go cultish-egoist, just open your wallet

If you only brew espresso for mixing with water or milk (cappucinos,
lattes, Americanos), then a moka pot or other steam-based gizmo might be
all you need.

But if you like the taste, aroma, and texture of real espresso in
straight shots, a pump machine might be worth considering. I'm out of
date on current products, but I second the recommendation to check the
articles in alt.coffee.

--
Julian Vrieslander

Julian Vrieslander wrote:
> "Sheldon" wrote:
> > No matter how much you spend nothing will perform better than this:
> >http://www.amazon.com/Bialetti-Moka-...000CF3Q6/ref=p....
> > 02-2462282-7529725?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1174527692&sr=8-4
>
> Sure, and there's no difference between Camembert and Gouda.

Idiot, that's apples and oranges... which proves why you know nothing
about coffee, or anything else.

> Sheldon persists in this disinformation campaign. *There's nothing wrong
> with Moka pots. *Zillions of Italians use them. *I have one, too. *I
> also have a pump espresso machine. *Most people with more than two
> functioning tastebuds can tell the difference between the coffee made in
> these devices. *A food chemist can explain that they are very different
> products, produced under very different thermodynamic conditions.
>
> > Of course you can always go cultish-egoist, just open your wallet
>
> If you only brew espresso for mixing with water or milk (cappucinos,
> lattes, Americanos), then a moka pot or other steam-based gizmo might be
> all you need.
>
> But if you like the taste, aroma, and texture of real espresso in
> straight shots, a pump machine might be worth considering. *I'm out of
> date on current products, but I second the recommendation to check the
> articles in alt.coffee.

Those imbeciles know nothing, absolutely nothing. Anyone reads the
history of coffee will learn that espresso was developed as a way to
use the crappy moldy beans by over roasting. Those burned beans were
then given to the peasants to keep then from rioting, because they
were already addicted to caffeine. Espresso in of itself is garbage
coffee anyway, no way to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... it's
all cultish blind belief nonsense. The best anyone can do is keep it
simple and use good water. Doesn't matter how much is spent on coffee
beans and equipment, how much one plays witch doctor by roasting their
own, if the water sucks so will the coffee. Very few coffee cultists
know anything about the water, with all their noise about expensive
equipment hardly any invest in an RO filtration system, and the water
is everything. And the thing about those machines is it's impossible
to clean their plumbing, so even if one does use good water all those
machines can produce is ****. The Bialetti-Moka type unit can be
scrupulously cleaned each time it's used, nothing, NOTHING produces
better espresso. Too bad about yoose coffee newsgroupies that you
can't have a ****ing contest over the Bialetti-Moka, it's *simply* the
best[period]

Sheldon

Sheldon > wrote:

>Those imbeciles know nothing, absolutely nothing. Anyone reads the
>history of coffee will learn that espresso was developed as a way to
>use the crappy moldy beans by over roasting. Those burned beans were
>then given to the peasants to keep then from rioting, because they
>were already addicted to caffeine. Espresso in of itself is garbage
>coffee anyway, no way to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... it's
>all cultish blind belief nonsense. The best anyone can do is keep it
>simple and use good water. Doesn't matter how much is spent on coffee
>beans and equipment, how much one plays witch doctor by roasting their
>own, if the water sucks so will the coffee.

Oh, okay. So you don't know jill about coffee it turns out.

Steve

On Mar 22, 4:23�pm, (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Sheldon > wrote:
> >Those imbeciles know nothing, absolutely nothing. *Anyone reads the
> >history of coffee will learn that espresso was developed as a way to
> >use the crappy moldy beans by over roasting. *Those burned beans were
> >then given to the peasants to keep then from rioting, because they
> >were already addicted to caffeine. *Espresso in of itself is garbage
> >coffee anyway, no way to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear... it's
> >all cultish blind belief nonsense. *The best anyone can do is keep it
> >simple and use good water. *Doesn't matter how much is spent on coffee
> >beans and equipment, how much one plays witch doctor by roasting their
> >own, if the water sucks so will the coffee. *
>
> Oh, okay. *So you don't know jill about coffee it turns out.

But you're the one who asked... and somehow a few hours passes and
you're an expert, jerk.

Steve Pope wrote:
>
>
> I'm in the market for a compact-model espresso machine,
> one that reliably produces high-quality espresso, in
> small amounts (say one or two espresso cups at a time).
> It does not need to have an integral milk steamer or
> coffee grinder (although separately, I'm interested in
> knowing what sort of grinder is best, as I know my
> current coffee grinder cannot grind the stuff fine enough).
>
> Any idea what I should buy among currently available
> models?


I have tried several over the years. The best hs been a Krupps and Braun
was a close second. Krupps was also the best value. An appliance repairman
convinced me it was not worth spending a lot of money on one because they
all screw up eventually and they are hard to get parts for. No use
spending $500 or more on one when a $150 machine will do the same job
because the extra money does not guarantee better coffee or a longer life,
just a more expensive piece of trash when it quits.

Thanks, Mark and Dave for your input.

S.

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Any idea what I should buy among currently available
> models?

This is the most common question in alt.coffee.
The answer varies with time, so ask there to
get the current best answer. Last time I looked,
it was the Capresso Infinity grinder and Gaggia
Carezza espresso machine. But ask again, because
this information may be stale.

In article >, says...
> I'm in the market for a compact-model espresso machine,
> one that reliably produces high-quality espresso, in
> small amounts (say one or two espresso cups at a time).
> It does not need to have an integral milk steamer or
> coffee grinder (although separately, I'm interested in
> knowing what sort of grinder is best, as I know my
> current coffee grinder cannot grind the stuff fine enough).
>

We have a Krups model 964 espresso machine that has been going string
for 10 years. Steamer but no grinder.

For grinder, definitely a burr grinder (as opposed to a "blender" type.
Our Braun is also a workhorse, can grind very fine.


--
Peter Aitken

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Any idea what I should buy among currently available
> models?

Here's a classic essay on the general subject,
Jack Denver's reply to a newbie on alt.coffee:

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...e=source&hl=en

It doesn't recommend any current models, but
it tells you the basics toward understanding
what an espresso machine really is. There
is a great deal of misunderstanding on that
subject.

This is probably the all-time best essay
on the subject of buying your first espresso
machine ever posted to alt.coffee.

Mark Thorson > wrote:

>Here's a classic essay on the general subject,
>Jack Denver's reply to a newbie on alt.coffee:

>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...e=source&hl=en

Big on attitude but short on information ("I doubt what I tell
you will help you"), other than the basic fact that one wants
a pump machine.

But thanks.

Steve

Steve Pope > wrote:

>Mark Thorson > wrote:

>>Here's a classic essay on the general subject,
>>Jack Denver's reply to a newbie on alt.coffee:

>>http://groups.google.com/group/alt.c...e=source&hl=en

>Big on attitude but short on information ("I doubt what I tell
>you will help you"), other than the basic fact that one wants
>a pump machine.

Also I am pretty skeptical with his contention that an "Americano"
(dilutted espresso) is ultimately better than other forms of coffee
such as filtered, French-press, etc. I can't 100% rule out this
possibility but I've never liked "Americanos".

Steve
>
>But thanks.
>
>Steve

In article >,
(Steve Pope) wrote:

> Also I am pretty skeptical with his contention that an "Americano"
> (dilutted espresso) is ultimately better than other forms of coffee
> such as filtered, French-press, etc. I can't 100% rule out this
> possibility but I've never liked "Americanos".

An Americano, because of the dilution, has a similar texture to coffee
made in a drip machine, French press, etc. But the flavors can be
different. Whether you like it better is a matter of taste.

The difference will be more obvious if you are starting out with
espresso made with a pump machine. These machines force hot water (not
steam) through coffee at high pressure (9 atm). The stuff that comes
out of a pump espresso machine is different than what it produced by
drip brewers, percolators, moka pots and other steam gizmos. A
different profile of compounds, different viscosity. It's actually a
different physical state. The thick crema on a well-made espresso is a
colloidal suspension, trapping oils and aromatics which escape (or are
not extracted) in other processes.

There are lots of books that explain all this much better than I can.
For example, "Espresso Coffee, 2nd ed.: The Science of Quality," by
Rinantonio Viani and Andrea Illy.

Unfortunately, a lot of people form their opinions of espresso (and
other fancy coffee drinks) from what they have experienced at Starbuck's
and other big chains. Really good espresso is hard to find. It
requires good beans, expert roasting and blending, and a competent
barista working on well-maintained clean equipment. You'll know it when
you find it.

I live in Seattle, where there are espresso joints everywhere. The
stuff served by most of them (including Starbuck's) ranges from mediocre
to drek. But there are a few shops that stand out. If you come here,
try a straight shot at Caffé d'Arte, Espresso Vivace, or Zoka. You
don't have to a coffee snob to appreciate the dedication that these
folks put into their product. It's hard to get to their level of
quality and consistency with home equipment. But for a couple of
hundred dollars, and some practice, you can come close.

--
Julian Vrieslander

On 2007-03-23, Julian Vrieslander > wrote:

> different profile of compounds, different viscosity. It's actually a
> different physical state. The thick crema on a well-made espresso is a
> colloidal suspension, trapping oils and aromatics which escape (or are
> not extracted) in other processes.

Precisely.

> and other big chains. Really good espresso is hard to find. It
> requires good beans, expert roasting and blending, and a competent
> barista....

Bingo! All the other factors can be rendered into black crap by
unskilled operators. Before Starbucks went to insanely expensive
superautomatics (grind, prep, brew at touch of button), even the best
machines on the market were no help to them. So, it's true. Your
chances of finding a good espresso in the wild is about one in twenty.
But, they're out there and it's possible to replicate them at home.
On my second machine and second grinder, I can make *great* espresso.
But, it took some jingles and experience and skill to get there.

Here's what I would recommend as a minimal surefire combination at about
the lowest cost you can expect for new:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/detailed/cremasl70
http://www.sweetmarias.com/prod.zas.shtml

But, you can buy these things used. I got both my grinder and machine
for under $200.

nb

Julian Vrieslander > wrote:

>Unfortunately, a lot of people form their opinions of espresso (and
>other fancy coffee drinks) from what they have experienced at Starbuck's
>and other big chains. Really good espresso is hard to find. It
>requires good beans, expert roasting and blending, and a competent
>barista working on well-maintained clean equipment. You'll know it when
>you find it.

>I live in Seattle, where there are espresso joints everywhere. The
>stuff served by most of them (including Starbuck's) ranges from mediocre
>to drek. But there are a few shops that stand out. If you come here,
>try a straight shot at Caffé d'Arte, Espresso Vivace, or Zoka.

Thanks.

I go to Caffe d'Arte each time I'm in Seattle.

One motivation for getting an espresso machine now is that
I have access to a good coffee source (Blue Bottle, which I
can pick up every Tuesday and Saturday and it's always roasted
1 or at most 2 days previously.)

One model I'm considering is the Briel ES42F but I'm still
in the research phase.

Steve

writes:

>I live in Seattle, where there are espresso joints everywhere. The
>stuff served by most of them (including Starbuck's) ranges from mediocre
>to drek. But there are a few shops that stand out. If you come here,
>try a straight shot at Caffe d'Arte, Espresso Vivace, or Zoka. You
>don't have to a coffee snob to appreciate the dedication that these
>folks put into their product. It's hard to get to their level of
>quality and consistency with home equipment. But for a couple of
>hundred dollars, and some practice, you can come close.

don't forget Victrola

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Any idea what I should buy among currently available
> models?

Here's a review of the Gaggia Carezza when it was introduced:

http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews...arezza/details

It's currently available for $179, which is less than
the pricing mentioned in the review.