What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?

Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.

In alt.flame.jesus.christ, Mark K. Bilbo said...

>
> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 23:13:26 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
>
> > On Apr 16, 12:12 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" > wrote:
> >> On Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:46:37 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
> >> > On Apr 15, 7:50 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" > wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:22:33 -0700, Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:
> >> >> > convicted neighbor Haskell wrote:
> >>
> >> >> >> 2PD-FRITOS
> >>
> >> >> >> Will it work?
> >>
> >> >> > The FRITOS diet will likely not meet with your supervising doctor's
> >> >> > approval.
> >>
> >> >> Neither will anything you propose. That's why you were fired from
> >> >> your one and only job...
> >>
> >> > He's probably actually TRIED putting his patients on 2PD FRITOS.
> >>
> >> It *is interesting that *he claims it was because he wouldn't "falsify
> >> records". Which makes you wonder, did his entries read such as, "Doesn't
> >> use all caps for LORD so has diabetes"?
> >
> > Is that why I have epilepsy? Because sometime in the past, I wrote "Chung
> > is a helium-headed xian ****wit?"
>
> Well, mystery solved!
>

The Lord works in mysterious ways.

--
Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD ~ Bearer of The One True Liver ~
Ordained Minister, Physician & Holy Saint of The Universal Life Church
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WEBSITE: http://www.jackanapes.ws | FORUM: http://www.voy.com/20630
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Diet with Dr. Chung: http://www.jackanapes.ws/2pdcat.html

In alt.flame.jesus.christ, Flying Rat, board-certified Earthquack
trainer said...

> In article et>,
> says...
> > What's your proof that there is a god or a "jesus"?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> I'm still waiting for proof of his medical practice and hospital
> priveliges.

You'll be waiting a long time. His medical board listing says he has no
hospital privileges.

--
Dr. Jackanapes MD/PhD ~ Bearer of The One True Liver ~
Ordained Minister, Physician & Holy Saint of The Universal Life Church
----------------------------------------------------------------------
WEBSITE: http://www.jackanapes.ws | FORUM: http://www.voy.com/20630
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Diet with Dr. Chung: http://www.jackanapes.ws/2pdcat.html

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
>
> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>
> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.

gibberish
>
>
>
>
>

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>
> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.
Gibberish
I'm an athiest, but where's the beef in your posts?
>

You worship "jesus"? Then follow this:

Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go
to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's
womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are
eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He
that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I
don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally
tells all men to cut off their privates.



Start your healing at http://www.evilbible.com/

"Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>>
>> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.
> Gibberish
> I'm an athiest, but where's the beef in your posts?

Why is there wood in your head?

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> You worship "jesus"? Then follow this:
>
> Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go
> to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their mother's
> womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are
> eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He
> that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I
> don't know why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally
> tells all men to cut off their privates.

Don't bark at me... I don't believe any of this bullshit.

>
>
>
> Start your healing at http://www.evilbible.com/
>

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
nk.net...
>
> "Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
>> nk.net...
>>> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>>>
>>> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.
>> Gibberish
>> I'm an athiest, but where's the beef in your posts?
>
> Why is there wood in your head?

That's my trousers you idiot
>
>

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message ink.net...
>
> You worship "jesus"? Then follow this:
>
> Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born
> from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves
> eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know
> why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.

Nope!

All atheists are lost and are
doomed to the devil's hell!

All atheists are and will be
all Christian's footstool,
just as Scripture says.

"Kurt Gavin" >
If one would collect all of "Kurt Gavin" posts, take out the blanks,
reformat them into paragraph style, there would nothing said
that a Christian would find useful, and that's because "Kurt Gavin"
in not a Christian.

"Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord, my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take."

Atheists shouldn't quote the Bible,
they do not have the Spiritual discernment.

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message nk.net...
>
> "Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message ...
>>
>> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message nk.net...
>>> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>>>
>>> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.
>> Gibberish
>> I'm an athiest, but where's the beef in your posts?
>
> Why is there wood in your head?

Nope!

All atheists are lost and are
doomed to the devil's hell!

All atheists are and will be
all Christian's footstool,
just as Scripture says.

"Kurt Gavin" >
If one would collect all of "Kurt Gavin" posts, take out the blanks,
reformat them into paragraph style, there would nothing said
that a Christian would find useful, and that's because "Kurt Gavin"
in not a Christian.

"Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord, my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take."

Atheists shouldn't quote the Bible,
they do not have the Spiritual discernment.

"Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message nk.net...
>>
>> "Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message ...
>>>
>>> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message nk.net...
>>>> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>>>>
>>>> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.
>>> Gibberish
>>> I'm an athiest, but where's the beef in your posts?
>>
>> Why is there wood in your head?
>
> That's my trousers you idiot

It should read:

"Why is there a hole in your head?
"That's my ---- in my trousers you sh-t filled
triple cheeked colon loaf!"

"Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message ...
>
> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message ink.net...
>>
>> You worship "jesus"? Then follow this:
>>
>> Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born
>> from their mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and there are eunuchs, that made themselves
>> eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know
>> why anyone would follow the teachings of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.
>
> Don't bark at me... I don't believe any of this bullshit.

Not U but KG ...

Nope!

All atheists are lost and are
doomed to the devil's hell!

All atheists are and will be
all Christian's footstool,
just as Scripture says.

"Kurt Gavin" >
If one would collect all of "Kurt Gavin" posts, take out the blanks,
reformat them into paragraph style, there would nothing said
that a Christian would find useful, and that's because "Kurt Gavin"
in not a Christian.

"Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord, my soul to keep.
If I should die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take."

Atheists shouldn't quote the Bible,
they do not have the Spiritual discernment.

"Melchizedek" > wrote in message
news:BCwVh.8440$vD4.2052@bigfe9...
>
> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> You worship "jesus"? Then follow this:
>>
>> Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to
>> go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their
>> mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and
>> there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of
>> heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
>> (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings
>> of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.
>
> Nope!
>
> All atheists are lost and are
> doomed to the devil's hell!

You're posting under 3 or 4 names. Loser.


<snip>

"Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
> nk.net...
>>
>> "Irv 'Cottonmouth' Hyatt" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
>>> nk.net...
>>>> What kind of perverse idiot posts under the name "Sexual Chocolate"?
>>>>
>>>> Your "xianity" is pablum for morons.
>>> Gibberish
>>> I'm an athiest, but where's the beef in your posts?
>>
>> Why is there wood in your head?
>
> That's my trousers you idiot


Get lost you piece of shit.

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message ink.net...
>
>> Nope!
>>
>> All atheists are lost and are
>> doomed to the devil's hell!
>

“Difficult Times Will Come” - Are We there Yet!

The Coming Apostasy

(2 Timothy 3:1-5 NASB)

“Difficult Times Will Come”

1 But realize this, that ?a?in the last days difficult times will come.
2 For men will be ?a?lovers of self, ?b?lovers of money, ?c?boastful,
?c?arrogant, ?d?revilers, ?c?disobedient to parents, ?e?ungrateful, ?f?unholy,
3 ?a?unloving, irreconcilable, ?b?malicious gossips, without self-control,
brutal, ?1??c?haters of good,
4 ?a?treacherous, ?b?reckless, ?c?conceited, ?d?lovers of pleasure rather
than lovers of God,
5 holding to a form of ?1??a?godliness, although they have ?b?denied its
power; ?c?Avoid such men as these. [1]

LIVING IN THE LAST DAYS

If society is doomed to degeneration, what should believers do as they live in the
“last days”? Paul offered advice in several of his letters:

Reference - Romans 13:11–14
Application - Keep close to the Lord.

Reference - 2 Corinthians 11:13–15
Application - Avoid those masquerading as servants of God.

Reference - Ephesians 5:11
Application - Have nothing to do with evildoers and their wicked deeds; instead,
expose them. Believers need not allow evil to continue unchecked, but should
actively work against it.

Reference - Ephesians 5:18
Application - Redeem the time.

Reference - Colossians 4:2, 5
Application - Believers are to pray, be watchful, be thankful, and be wise in the
way they act toward unbelievers, making the most of every opportunity to share
the gospel.

Reference - 2 Thessalonians 3:6–15
Application - Church members who are lazy and idle must be warned. Christians
should not be sitting around waiting for the Lord to return, but should continue
working in the ministry.

[2]

In verses 2–5, nineteen characteristics of mankind during the last days are given.
We shall simply list them and give synonyms that explain their meaning:

Lovers of themselves—self-cen tered, conceited, egotistical.
Lovers of money—greedy for mon ey, avaricious.
Boasters—braggarts, full of great swelling words.
Proud—arrogant, haughty, overbearing.
Blasphemers—evil speakers, profane, abusive, foulmouthed, contemptuous,
insulting.
Disobedient to parents—rebellious, undutiful, uncontrolled.
Unthankful—ungrateful, lacking in appreciation.
Unholy—impious, profane, irreverent, holding nothing sacred.

3:3 Unloving—hard-hearted, unnaturally callous, unfeeling.
Unforgiving—“implacable, refusing to make peace, refusing efforts toward
reconciliation.”
Slanderers—spreading false and malicious reports.
Without self-control—men of uncontrolled passions, dissolute, debauched.
Brutal—savage, unprincipled.
Despisers of good—haters of whatever or whoever is good; utterly opposed to
goodness in any form.

3:4 Traitors—treacherous, betrayers.
Headstrong—reckless, self-willed, rash.
Haughty—making empty pretensions, conceited.
Lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God—those who love sensual pleasures
but not God.

[3]

2 Timothy 3:1

Knowing his death was imminent, I believe Paul nonetheless thought the Rapture
would happen either in his lifetime or shortly thereafter. So do I. I believe the
Rapture will happen in my lifetime.

“Well,” you say, “if Paul thought the Rapture would happen in his lifetime, and it
didn’t—and if men of God throughout the ages have felt as though they were
living in the last days and the Rapture would happen in their lifetimes, and it
didn’t—doesn’t it seem foolish to think the Rapture will happen in your lifetime?”

Not at all. Throughout the history of the church, the greatest men and women of
the faith have all lived their lives believing that the Lord’s coming was nigh. And
even though the Lord didn’t come when they thought He would, looking for His
return impacted their lives in such a way that they left their mark on history and
will be rewarded greatly in eternity (2 Timothy 4:8). Luther, Calvin, Spurgeon,
Finney, Moody, Torrey all felt the Lord’s coming was close at hand. Put me in
their company any day!

I choose to live my life looking for the Lord’s coming. And if I am wrong, even if
He doesn’t come back for another five hundred years, I would rather go through
the days I have left looking for the sudden appearing of Jesus Christ because I
know the effect it has upon the life of any man or woman who believes He could
come today: One’s heart does not get troubled as easily. One is not prone to sin
so readily. If you want to live a zealous, exciting, fulfilling, pure Christian life, live it
looking for the Lord’s coming (1 John 3:3).

[4]

2 Timothy 3:2 (a)

For men shall be lovers of their own selves…

Of the students in the ten leading industrialized nations, American high-school
students scored either ninth or tenth in every academic category. But in the
category of self-esteem, they came in first. In other words, our culture is very
good at teaching our kids to say, “I’m okay. I’m somebody. I’m proud.”

2 Timothy 3:2 (b)

…covetous, boasters…

The Greek word translated “boasters” is alazon, which speaks of a claim made
by a quack promising something but unable to deliver that which was promised.

2 Timothy 3:2 (c)

…proud, blasphemers…

The idea of blasphemy literally refers to those who use the Lord’s name in vain.
People say “God” constantly—but seldom with reverence. Even by people
interviewed on news programs, the Lord’s name is used in vain constantly.

2 Timothy 3:2 (d), 3 (a)

…disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection…

I believe nothing identifies us more clearly as those who have fallen into unnatural
affection than the sad statistics relating to abortion. We’re horrified when we read
that the Canaanites placed their babies on the incandescent arms of idols. How
can this be? we wonder. And yet we burn our babies with saline solutions in the
wombs of mothers—a practice even more horrific, a practice that goes against
every natural instinct to protect one’s offspring.

2 Timothy 3:3 (b)

…trucebreakers…

The idea here is of people ignoring covenants or contracts.

2 Timothy 3:3 (c)

…false accusers, incontinent, fierce…

After being confronted by a student upset with an assignment, the teacher of an
anger management class lost his temper and hit the student in the face. Now, if
even teachers of anger management are hitting people, without the Lord, what
hope is there for the rest of our angry world?

2 Timothy 3:3 (d), 4

…despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of
pleasures more than lovers of God.

People love pleasure. But it’s a love that leads only to the “Been there, done that,
now what?” mentality, as they find they have to continually do something bigger,
better, farther, faster, and higher in order to get the same thrill they once did.

2 Timothy 3:5

Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

We’re to turn away from those who are without natural affection, from those who
despise things that are good, from those who love pleasure more than God, from
those who talk about NewAge spirituality but who know nothing of the power of
the Holy Spirit and the Resurrected Jesus.

[5]

IS IT BAD ENOUGH YET?

Our concerns about the “last days” tend to be very personal. They usually arise,
not because we are actually suffering, but because we dread suffering. Concerns
focus not so much on the destructiveness of evil around us, but whether or not
evil will affect our way of living. Such narrow concerns reveal our blindness to
evil. Christians must not withdraw from the world entirely or use the wrong
methods to defend themselves against it. Believers who attempt to insulate
themselves from the moral degradation of the last days must not insulate
themselves from God. Whenever material prosperity or pleasure are used in place
of God’s protection, we fool ourselves. But God loves us too much to leave us in
our delusion. If it takes the loss of everything to get our attention, God has been
known to allow that to happen. Does your life exhibit an awareness of the
desperate condition of the world? Are you using God’s methods for dealing with
terrible times?

[6]

CHECK THE LIST

In many parts of the world today, it’s not too tough to be a follower of
Christ—Christians aren’t jailed for reading the Bible or executed for preaching
Christ. But Paul’s descriptive list of behavior in the last days describes our
society—even, unfortunately, the behavior of some Christians. Every one of these
can be found in churches today. Check your life against Paul’s list. Don’t give in
to society’s pressures. Don’t settle for comfort without commitment. Stand up
against evil by living as God would have his people live.

[7]

CHOOSING TO LOVE

Why is it so tempting to be a lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God?

• Pleasure is something we can control; God cannot be controlled. Most
pleasures can be obtained easily; love for God requires effort and sometimes
sacrifice.

• Pleasure benefits us now; the benefits of loving God are often in the future.

• Pleasure has a narcotic effect; it takes our minds off ourselves and our
problems. Love for God reminds us of our needs and our responsibilities.

• Pleasure cooperates with pride. It makes us feel good when we look good in
the eyes of others. To love God we must lay aside our pride and our
accomplishments.

[8]

PLAYING SOLDIER

Imitation Christianity has dangerous consequences. Putting on an appearance of
faith often leads people to believe a person is a true believer. In an actual incident
during the Korean War, a lieutenant inspecting a new platoon over which he was
about to take command reported that several soldiers carried rifles that had
rusted shut. Yet they were scheduled to go into battle the next day! They looked
like soldiers; they carried weapons. But they were unprepared and unable to
fight.

Some churchgoers rely on superficial appearances. Many people today carry
Bibles, attend church, mouth the right words, yet evidence no spiritual power in
their lives. They have no direct, personal, intimate connection with God.

[9]

“Self-love is the basic shortcoming mentioned in the list of vices in 3:2–5. This
vice leads to action in vv. 6–9 that is deceitful, determined to dominate, stubborn,
and rejected by God.” 64

[10]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

a 1 Tim 4:1
a Phil 2:21
b Luke 16:14; 1 Tim 3:3; 6:10
c Rom 1:30
d 2 Pet 2:10–12
e Luke 6:35
f 1 Tim 1:9
a Rom 1:31
b 1 Tim 3:11
1 Lit not loving good
c Titus 1:8
a Acts 7:52
b Acts 19:36
c 1 Tim 3:6
d Phil 3:19
1 Or religion
a 1 Tim 4:7
b 1 Tim 5:8
c Matt 7:15; 2 Thess 3:6

[1]New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (2 Ti 3:1). LaHabra, CA:
The Lockman Foundation.

[2]Barton, B. B., Veerman, D., & Wilson, N. S. (1993). 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy,
Titus. Cover title: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Life application Bible commentary
(204). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

[3]MacDonald, W., & Farstad, A. (1997, c1995). Believer's Bible Commentary
: Old and New Testaments (2 Ti 3:2). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

[4]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1408).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[5]Courson, J. (2003). Jon Courson's Application Commentary (1408).
Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.

[6]Barton, B. B., Veerman, D., & Wilson, N. S. (1993). 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy,
Titus. Cover title: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Life application Bible commentary
(204). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

[7]Barton, B. B., Veerman, D., & Wilson, N. S. (1993). 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy,
Titus. Cover title: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Life application Bible commentary
(206). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

[8]Barton, B. B., Veerman, D., & Wilson, N. S. (1993). 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy,
Titus. Cover title: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Life application Bible commentary
(207). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

[9]Barton, B. B., Veerman, D., & Wilson, N. S. (1993). 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy,
Titus. Cover title: 1 & 2 Timothy & Titus. Life application Bible commentary
(208). Wheaton, Ill.: Tyndale House Publishers.

64 64. Lea, p. 230.

[10]Tom Constable. (2003; 2003). Tom Constable's Expository Notes on the
Bible (2 Ti 3:5). Galaxie Software.


.. So much predictive Truth in just five [5] lines of Scripture!

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message ink.net...
> Get lost you piece of shit.
>

If God, Why Evil?

Atheist: If there really is an all-good, all-powerful, theistic God, then why does he allow evil?
Christian: How do you know what evil is unless you know what good is? And how do you know what good is unless there is an
objective standard of good beyond
yourself?
Atheist: Don’t try to avoid the question.
Christian: I’m not trying to avoid the question. I’m simply showing you that your complaint presupposes that God exists.
In fact, the existence of evil doesn’t disprove God.
It may prove that there is a devil, but it doesn’t prove that there’s no God.
Atheist: Interesting move, but I’m not convinced.
Christian: You may not be convinced, but your complaint still presupposes God.
Atheist: For the sake of argument, suppose I grant you that God exists. Will you then answer the question?
Christian: Sure. It’s good to see you’re making progress.
Atheist: Remember, it’s just for the sake of argument. So why doesn’t your so-called “all-powerful” God stop evil?
Christian: Do you really want him to?
Atheist: Of course!
Christian: Suppose he starts with you?
Atheist: Be serious.
Christian: No, really. We always talk about God stopping evil, but we forget that if he did, he would have to stop us too.
We all do evil.
Atheist: Oh, come on! We’re not talking about the minor sins of you and me—but we’re talking about real evil, like what
Hitler did!
Christian: My point is not the degree of evil, but the source of evil. The source of evil is our free choice. If God were
to do away with evil, then he would have to do away
with free choice. And if he did away with our free choice, we would no longer have the ability to love or do good. This would
no longer be a moral world.
Atheist: But not all evil is due to free choice. Why do babies die? Why do natural disasters occur?
Christian: The Bible traces it all back to the fall of man. No one is really innocent because we all sinned in Adam (Rom.
5:12) and as a consequence deserve death (Rom.
6:23). Natural disasters and premature deaths are a direct result of the curse on creation because of the fall of humankind
(Genesis 3; Romans 8). This fallen world will not be
righted until Christ returns (Revelation 21–22). So no one is guaranteed a trouble-free life, or a full life of seventy years.
Atheist: Oh, isn’t that convenient—dust off the Bible and tell us that God will make it right in the end! I’m not
interested in the future. I want pain and suffering to end now!
Why won’t God end it?
Christian: He will end it, but just not on your timetable. Just because God hasn’t ended evil yet doesn’t mean that he
never will end it.
Atheist: But why doesn’t Christ return right now to end all this pain? The sum of human pain is enormous!
Christian: First, no one is experiencing the “sum of human pain.” If it’s 80 degrees in Manhattan, 85 degrees in Brooklyn,
and 80 degrees in Queens, does any New
Yorker experience a heat of 245 degrees?
Atheist: No.
Christian: That’s right. Each person experiences his own pain.
Atheist: But that still doesn’t tell me why God doesn’t end it all now. Why is he waiting?
Christian: If God wanted to end evil now, he could. But have you thought that maybe God has other goals that he would like
to accomplish while evil exists?
Atheist: Like what?
Christian: For starters, he would like to have more people choose heaven before he closes the curtain on this world. Paul
seems to indicate that Jesus will come back after
“the full number” of people become believers (Rom. 11:25).
Atheist: Well, while God is waiting for the “full number” of people to be saved, other people are hurting!
Christian: Yes, they are. And that means Christians have a job to do. We have the privilege of helping those who are
hurting. We are ambassadors for Christ here on
earth.
Atheist: That’s nice, but if I were suffering I’d rather have God help me than you!
Christian: If God prevented pain every time we got into trouble, then we would become the most reckless, self-centered
creatures in the universe. And we would never
learn from suffering.
Atheist: Learn from suffering! What are you talking about?
Christian: Ah, you’ve just hit on another reason why God doesn’t end evil right now. Can you name me one enduring lesson
that you ever learned from pleasure?
Atheist: Give me a minute.
Christian: I could give you an hour; I doubt that you would come up with much. If you think about it, you’ll find that
virtually every valuable lesson you’ve ever learned
resulted from some hardship in your life. In most cases, bad fortune teaches while good fortune deceives. In fact, you not only
learn lessons from suffering, but it’s practically
the only way you can develop virtues.
Atheist: What do you mean?
Christian: You can’t develop courage unless there is danger. You can’t develop perseverance unless you have obstacles in
your way. You won’t learn how to be a servant
unless there’s someone to serve. And compassion would never be summoned if there were never anyone in pain or in need. It’s the
old adage: “no pain, no gain.”
Atheist: But I wouldn’t need all those virtues if God would just quarantine evil right now!
Christian: But since God has reasons for not quarantining evil right now, you need to develop virtues for this life and
the life hereafter. This earth is an uncomfortable home,
but it’s a great gymnasium for the hereafter.
Atheist: You Christians always punt to the hereafter. You’re so heavenly minded that you’re no earthly good!
Christian: We may be heavenly minded, but we know that what we do on earth matters in eternity. Virtues that a believer
develops through suffering will enhance his
capacity to enjoy eternity. Paul says that “our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far
outweighs them all” (2 Cor. 4:17; cf. Rom. 8:18).
Atheist: How is hardship here going to help me feel better in a place where there’s not going to be any pain anyway?
Christian: You like football, don’t you?
Atheist: I’ve watched a few games.
Christian: How does every player on the Super Bowl–winning team feel after the game?
Atheist: Great, of course!
Christian: Does the captain of the winning team—who also won the MVP trophy—enjoy the victory more than the third-string
quarterback who didn’t play a down all
year?
Atheist: I suppose so.
Christian: Of course he does. While the third-string quarterback is happy to be on the winning team, the victory is much
sweeter for the captain who won the MVP trophy
because he contributed to the win and persevered through the entire year to get there. By persisting through all the hardships
and pains of playing, he actually enhanced his
capacity to enjoy the victory. And it’s made even sweeter by the MVP trophy.
Atheist: What does football have to do with heaven?
Christian: Heaven will be like the winning locker room (but without the smell!). We’ll all be happy to be there, but some
will have a greater ability to enjoy it and have more
rewards than others. After all, God’s justice demands that there will be degrees of rewards in heaven just like there will be
degrees of punishment in hell.
Atheist: So you’re saying life is like a Super Bowl?
Christian: To a certain extent, yes. Like a Super Bowl, life has rules, a referee, and rewards. But in life there are no
spectators—everyone is in the game—and we already
know who will win. Christ will win, and anyone, regardless of ability, can be a winner simply by joining the team. While
everyone on the team will enjoy the victory parade,
some will appreciate it even more because of the hardships they experienced during the game and the rewards they receive for
playing it well. In other words, the feeling of
victory is greater the more intense the battle is.
Atheist: So you’re saying that evil has a purpose that has implications in eternity.
Christian: Yes.
Atheist: Why do you insist on putting everything in light of eternity?
Christian: Because we’re all going to be dead a lot longer than we’re going to be alive! Furthermore, the Bible teaches us
to look to the eternal, and life makes sense only
in light of eternity. If there is no eternity, then there is no ultimate purpose for anything, pleasures or pains.
Atheist: Suppose there is no eternity. Suppose we live, we die, and that’s it.
Christian: It’s possible, but I don’t have enough faith to believe it.
Atheist: Why not?
Christian: Haven’t you read this book?
Atheist: No, I jumped right to this appendix.
Christian: That’s just like you, isn’t it? You don’t want to play the game; you just want to see the final score.
Atheist: I suppose I suffer from the American disease of instant gratification.
Christian: That’s probably why you’re having trouble realizing the value of suffering and “no pain, no gain!”
Atheist: You’re right, reading this book is too painful. It’s too long.
Christian: It could be shorter if we didn’t have to address all those crazy arguments you atheists bring up. Besides, you’ve
got time to read. Sunday mornings are free for
you.
Atheist: There are a lot less painful things I could do on Sunday mornings.
Christian: Look, I know this book may be painful to read, but it’s more painful to reject its conclusion. You’ve got to
read this book from beginning to end if you want to
see the whole argument for Christianity. The case is laid out in logical order. Each chapter builds on the previous one.
Atheist: Alright, I’ll read the book. But in the meantime, let’s get back to the question of evil. If there is an
eternity, then some evils in this world may have an eternal
purpose. But there are certainly some evil acts in this world that have absolutely no purpose.
Christian: How do you know?
Atheist: It’s obvious! What good purpose could there be in, say, the terrorist attacks on 9/11?
Christian: While I wish it had never happened, there were some good things that we know about that came out of those
terrible events. For example, we came together as
a country; we helped those in need; and we resolved to fight the evil of terrorism. We also were shocked into pondering the
ultimate questions about life, and some people
came to Christ as result of it. As C. S. Lewis said, pain is God’s “megaphone to rouse a deaf world.”?1? 9/11 certainly woke us
up!
Atheist: Yes, you can find a silver lining in just about anything, but there’s no way your “silver lining” outweighs the
pain and suffering.
Christian: How do you know? Unless you are all-knowing and have an eternal perspective, how do you know the events of 9/11
will not work together for good in the
end? Perhaps there are many good things that will come out of that tragedy in the individual lives we will never hear about. In
fact, good results may even come generations
from now unbeknownst to those who will experience them.
Atheist: Come on! That’s a cop-out!
Christian: No, it’s simply recognizing our limits and acknowledging the limitless knowledge and unseen purposes of God
(Rom. 11:33–36). We can’t see the future on
earth, much less what eternity in heaven will be like. So how can we say that the ultimate eternal outcome of 9/11 won’t work
out for good? We already know some good
things that have resulted from it. Just because we can’t think of an ultimate good reason or purpose for it, that doesn’t mean
an infinite God doesn’t have one.
Atheist: If God would tell me his reasons, then maybe I could believe you.
Christian: Job already tried that tactic. After he questioned God about why he suffered, God baffled Job with questions
about the wonders of creation (Job 38–41). It’s as
if God were saying to him, “Job, you can’t even understand how I run the physical world that you can see, so how are you going
to understand the vastly more complex moral
world that you cannot see—a world where the results of billions of free choices made by human beings every day interact with
one another?” Indeed, it would be impossible
for us to comprehend such complexity. By the way, have you ever seen the movie It’s a Wonderful Life?
Atheist: Do you mean the one with Jimmy Stewart that’s shown every Christm … I mean, winter solstice?
Christian: Yeah, that’s the one. Jimmy Stewart plays George Bailey, a character who is despondent because his business
dealings have gone bad and his life seems to be
falling apart. He is averted from suicide at the last minute by an angel who shows him what life would have been like for
others if George had never been born. It turns out that
life would have been terrible for many people throughout his hometown. But George never knew this. He never realized the
amazing impact his life had on others. Hence the
title, It’s a Wonderful Life.
Atheist: Bah! Humbug!
Christian: Come on. You get the point, don’t you?
Atheist: Yeah, I get the point: we don’t know what impact any person or event might have in the long run, especially since
there are so many interacting choices being
made.
Christian: Yes, and even choices meant for evil can turn out for good (Gen. 50:20). Perhaps many people now or generations
from now will come to Christ because of the
direct or indirect effects of evil events.
Atheist: But it seems like that’s an argument from ignorance.
Christian: No. It’s not like we have no information about why bad things happen. We know that we live in a fallen world,
and we know that good things can come from
bad. So we know it’s possible that God can have a good reason for bad things even if we don’t know what those reasons are. And
we know that he can bring good from
bad. So it’s not an argument from ignorance, but a reasonable conclusion from what we do know. And while we don’t know the
reason for every specific bad thing that
happens, we know why we don’t know: we don’t know because of our human limitations.
Atheist: What do you think of Rabbi Kushner’s answer to the question? You know, he wrote the book When Bad Things Happen
to Good People.
Christian: I think his answer is wrong.
Atheist: Wrong? Why?
Christian: Because his answer is that God isn’t powerful enough to defeat evil on earth. So we need to forgive God for
allowing evil.
Atheist: What’s wrong with that?
Christian: Because there’s strong evidence that God is infinitely powerful. Fifty-six times in the Bible God is referred
to as “almighty,” and in several other ways he is
described as all-powerful. We also know from scientific evidence that he created this universe out of nothing (take a look at
chapter 3 of this book). So Rabbi Kushner’s
finite god doesn’t square with the facts.
Atheist: If God is infinitely powerful as you say, then why does he allow bad things to happen to good people?
Christian: We’ve already pointed out that there are good outcomes for pain and suffering. But we also need to point out
that the question makes an assumption that isn’t
true.
Atheist: What’s that?
Christian: There are no good people!
Atheist: Oh, come on!
Christian: No, really. Some people are better than others, but no one is really good. We all have a natural bent toward
selfishness. And we all commit sins routinely.
Atheist: I do more good things than bad.
Christian: By whose standard?
Atheist: By society’s standard. I’m a law-abiding citizen. I’m not a murderer or a thief.
Christian: That’s the problem. We consider ourselves good people only by the standards of bad people. We judge ourselves
against others rather than against an absolute
standard of good. By the way, have you ever stolen anything?
Atheist: Well, yes.
Christian: Have you ever lied about anything?
Atheist: No.
Christian: You’re lying.
Atheist: I can’t fool you.
Christian: So you’re a lying thief, then!
Atheist: That doesn’t mean I’m all bad.
Christian: No, but it means you’re not all good either. Think about it: it’s much easier to be bad than good; it’s much
more natural to you to be selfish rather than generous.
We all have that depraved human nature. As Augustine said, “We’re all born with a propensity to sin and a necessity to die.”?2?
That propensity is inborn. That’s why young
children naturally grab things and yell, “Mine!” It’s also why James Madison said, “If men were angels, no government would be
necessary.”?3?
Atheist: So Kushner makes incorrect assumptions about the nature of man and the nature of God.
Christian: Exactly. The question is not “Why do bad things happen to good people?” but “Why do good things happen to bad
people?”
Atheist: If God really is all-powerful as you say, I still don’t understand why he didn’t stop 9/11. If you knew it was
going to happen and had the power to stop it,
wouldn’t you have stopped it?
Christian: Yes.
Atheist: So you are better than God!
Christian: No, by stopping 9/11, I would be preventing evil. But God, who has an unlimited, eternal perspective, allows
evil choices knowing that he can redeem them in
the end. We can’t redeem such choices, so we try to stop every one.
Atheist: Yes, but by your own Christian doctrine, God doesn’t redeem all evil choices in the end. After all, some people
go to hell!
Christian: Yes, but that’s because God can bring eternal good only to those who will accept it. Some people ignore the
facts or simply choose to play the game in a way
that brings them defeat. Since God cannot force them to freely choose to play the game the right way, ultimate good only comes
to those who choose it. That’s why Paul says,
“And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose”
(Rom. 8:28). Notice he doesn’t say, “all
things are good.” He says all things work together for the good of those who love him.
Atheist: So how did “all things work together for good” for those who died in 9/11?
Christian: Those who loved God and accepted the free gift of salvation are with God in eternity. Those who did not, are
having their free choice of eternal separation
respected as well.
Atheist: And the rest of us?
Christian: Those of us who remain here still have time to make our decision. And those who already were Christians at the
time may have had their character strengthened
through 9/11.
Atheist: But if God is all-good and all-knowing, why would he create creatures who he knew would go to hell?
Christian: Good question. There are only five options God had. He could have: 1) not created at all; 2) created a non-free
world of robots; 3) created a free world where
we would not sin; 4) created a free world where we would sin, but everyone would accept God’s salvation; or 5) created the
world we have now—a world where we would
sin, and some would be saved but the rest would be lost.
Atheist: Yes, and it seems like God picked the worst of those five options! So God is not all-good!
Christian: Not so fast. The first option can’t even be compared to the other four because something and nothing have
nothing in common. Comparing a real world and a
non-world is not even like comparing apples and oranges, since they both are fruit. It is like comparing apples and non-apples,
insisting that non-apples taste better. In logic,
this is called a category mistake. It’s like asking, “What color is math?” Math is not a color, so the question is meaningless.
Atheist: If comparing existence to nonexistence is a category mistake, then Jesus made a category mistake when he said it
would have been better if Judas had never been
born (Matt. 26:24).
Christian: No, Jesus was not talking about the supremacy of non-being over being. He was simply making a forceful point
about the severity of Judas’s sin.
Atheist: Okay, so why didn’t God make his second option—a robot world?
Christian: He could have, but that wouldn’t have been a moral world. It would have been a world with no evil, but with no
moral good either.
Atheist: So why didn’t he make worlds three or four? Those worlds would allow love, and they certainly would be better
worlds than this one.
Christian: Yes, but not everything conceivable is actually achievable with free creatures. For example, it is conceivable
that I could have been robbing a bank instead of
talking to you. But that is not achievable because I freely chose to talk to you. Likewise, God can’t force free creatures not
to sin. Forced freedom is a contradiction.
Atheist: But this world could be better if there were one less murder or one less rape. So God failed because he didn’t
create the best possible world.
Christian: Hold on. While I will admit that this world is not the best possible world, it may be the best way to get to
the best possible world.
Atheist: What kind of theistic psychobabble is that?
Christian: God may have permitted evil in order to defeat it. As I’ve already said, if evil is not allowed, then the
higher virtues cannot be attained. People who are
redeemed have stronger character than people who have not been tested. Soul-building requires some pain. The Job of chapter 42
is a deeper and more joyful man than the
Job of chapter 1. So evil in this world actually serves a good purpose in the end. It creates an eternal world that’s the best
possible world.
Atheist: But why would God create people knowing that they would choose hell?
Christian: Do you have children?
Atheist: Yes. In fact I’m a former child myself!
Christian: Why did you have them, knowing that someday they would disobey you?
Atheist: My wife asks me that question a lot!
Christian: I know why I did. Because love takes risks. I was willing to take the risk of loss in order to experience the
joy of love. The same is true of every Super Bowl.
Both teams know that one will lose, yet both are willing to play the game despite that risk.
Atheist: I must admit that your intellectual answers make some sense, but evil still bothers me.?4?
Christian: It bothers me too, and it should. We all know that this world just isn’t right, and we all long for heaven.
Perhaps our longing for heaven is another clue that it’s
really there (some of the other clues being the evidence we’ve presented in this book).
Atheist: Perhaps, but I don’t think your intellectual answers will sustain a person through evil.
Christian: You may be right. But you don’t have to withstand evil with just answers. You can have access to the Divine
Comforter—the Holy Spirit—to help you through
this soul-building life of pain and suffering.
Atheist: I’d rather not suffer at all than to have a comforter.
Christian: Maybe that’s why God doesn’t put pain and suffering in our control. If he did, who would choose to go through
it?
Atheist: No one.
Christian: Well, that’s not exactly true. One man certainly chose to suffer. Jesus Christ volunteered to suffer so that
you and I could be reconciled to God. It has been the
only real case of a bad thing happening to a truly good person. So we can complain to God about pain and suffering, but we have
to admit that he did not exempt himself from
it. As for you and me, sometimes God saves us from evil, but sometimes he comforts us through evil. In either event, whether we
know his reasons or not, believers can trust
God that all things will work together for good according to his eternal plan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 C. S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain (New York: Macmillan, 1959), 81.
2 Augustine, The City of God, 14.1.
3 James Madison, in The Federalist, Benjamin F. Wright, ed. (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1961), 356.
4 For a more complete treatment of the problem of evil see Norman Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics (Grand
Rapids, Mich.: Baker, 1999). See also Peter
Kreeft, Making Sense Out of Suffering (Ann Arbor, Mich.: Servant, 1986).
Geisler, N. L., & Turek, F. (2004). I don't have enough faith to be an atheist (389). Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books.

"Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message ink.net...
>
>> Nope!
>>
>> All atheists are lost and are
>> doomed to the devil's hell!
>
> You're posting On Death and Dying Ray C. Stedman

"What is your view of your approaching death? Do you have some sense of
anticipation about it, with the awareness that beyond death is the final
explanation of all the unanswered, unexplained questions of life? I became a
Christian when I was 11 years old. Like all young boys, I faced life then with
mixed feelings of both anticipation and dread. But one thing I have always
wanted to do was to grow old. God has answered that prayer. Now, as I near
the end, I can say that looking ahead is a time filled with happy anticipation
that God is going to answer all the questions which I have had to leave
unanswered, because the full meaning of this present experience will never be
brought out until death intervenes. Then will come all the answers, abundantly,
satisfyingly, fully.

"That is the Christian perspective of life. If we succumb to the empty view of
the worldlings around us we too will find ourselves all ajitter, frustrated, feeling
bitter, angry and upset with our circumstances. But these words call us to the
realization that the meaning of life can never be found by trying to solve all the
problems. Rather, it is by trust in the Living God, who knows what he is doing
and is working out his strange purposes through our existence, teaching us all
we need to know as we go on through, so that our eyes should reflect the
peace of God and our hearts respond with joy at the promises that await
fulfillment yet to come."

"Our own personal death is the hard, harsh, square peg that refuses to fit into
all the round holes we plan for our future; it is the sand in our oyster that
irritates us and makes our spirits protest against it. Why should we learn all
these great lessons of life and, just when we have learned them we must give
them all up and there is no opportunity to exercise them? Something about that
makes us protest.

"If we have been brought up to believe the universal lie of our day which is
being flung at us all the time through the media that we deserve to live, then this
constantly approaching termination of our life reminds us that that is not so. In
the eyes of the God of the universe we do not deserve to live. If we are
allowed life beyond death it is a gift of God's grace, not something we have
earned ourselves. Something in us deserves to die; that is what universal death
declares.

"That fact is what makes everybody essentially religious. This is why man
cannot live like an animal. Even those who claim atheism, and attempt to act
and live as though there were no God, give evidence from time to time that
they do not really believe that. Beyond death is something someone they do
not know who or what waiting for them, so they cannot be comfortable with
the idea of atheism. They have to find some answer to the problems of life, and
death is what forces them to do that."

"Melchizedek" > wrote in message
news:BCwVh.8440$vD4.2052@bigfe9...
>
> "Kurt Gavin" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>>
>> You worship "jesus"? Then follow this:
>>
>> Jesus also promoted the idea that all men should castrate themselves to
>> go to heaven: "For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their
>> mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and
>> there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of
>> heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."
>> (Matthew 19:12 ASV) I don't know why anyone would follow the teachings
>> of someone who literally tells all men to cut off their privates.
>
> Nope!
*PLONK*
>
> All atheists are lost and are
> doomed to the devil's hell!
>
> All atheists are and will be
> all Christian's footstool,
> just as Scripture says.
>
> "Kurt Gavin" >
> If one would collect all of "Kurt Gavin" posts, take out the blanks,
> reformat them into paragraph style, there would nothing said
> that a Christian would find useful, and that's because "Kurt Gavin"
> in not a Christian.
>
> "Now I lay me down to sleep,
> I pray the Lord, my soul to keep.
> If I should die before I wake,
> I pray the Lord my soul to take."
>
> Atheists shouldn't quote the Bible,
> they do not have the Spiritual discernment.
>
>
>

"Irv 'shitmouth' Hyatt" >
> *PLONK*

LOL " For there are eunuchs, that were so born from their
mother's womb: and there are eunuchs, that were made eunuchs by men: and
there are eunuchs, that made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of
heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it."

So sayeth the holey jebus (Matthew 19:12 ASV)

LOL