http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/us/08default.html

May 8, 2007

'Top Chef' Dreams Crushed by Student Loan Debt

By KIM SEVERSON

"Rick Park started working at a Jack in the Box in Austin, Tex., when he was
18. He moved on to sub shops, pizza parlors and chain restaurants, turning
out hundreds of meals during a shift.

But Mr. Park wanted to be a chef. So like tens of thousands of other young
people who grew up in the age of kitchen celebrities like Bobby Flay and
Emeril Lagasse, he enrolled in culinary school.

Two years after graduation, all the "Bam!" has been drained from the dream.
Mr. Park makes $10.50 an hour at a bistro in Austin best known for its
French fries, trying to pay down his student loans. While he dodges phone
calls from the bank, his mother helps him make his $705 monthly payments,
almost twice his weekly take-home pay.

"I wouldn't wish this on anyone," Mr. Park, 29, said before starting another
night shift at the Hyde Park Bar and Grill. "I put my degree on
applications, and they make fun of me for it."

In the way that the work of directors like Martin Scorsese flooded film
schools with students in the 1970s, and the television show "L.A. Law"
packed law schools in the 1980s, the rise of celebrity chefs has been good
for culinary schools.

But would-be top chefs face a challenge that most lawyers, engineers or
nurses do not: few jobs in their chosen field pay enough for them to retire
their student loans. As a result, as many as 11 percent of graduates at some
culinary schools are defaulting on federal student loans. The national
average for all students last year was roughly half that, at 5.1 percent.

Although the restaurant industry is expected to create two million new jobs
in the next decade, the Department of Labor reports that in 2005, the latest
year for which data were available, the average hourly wage for a restaurant
cook was $9.86.

"The problem isn't getting a job, the problem is getting a high-paying job,"
said Susan Sykes Hendee, a dean at Baltimore International College and a
member of the American Culinary Federation Foundation Accrediting
Commission, which accredits many culinary schools.

Many of the schools offer two-year programs where the total tuition and
supply costs can reach $48,000. Only a slice of that is covered by
low-interest federal loans. For example, the most that students in two-year
programs can currently borrow in federal loans is $14,125.

So, many of them seek money from banks that are usually recommended by the
school. The terms on some of these private loans can quickly get a young
person with little borrowing experience into financial trouble.

Mr. Park said that when he and his mother met with a financial-aid counselor
at the school, they were told that his payments on his private loan, from
Sallie Mae, would be about $250 a month. But his first bill after graduation
was for more than twice that, said his mother, Elise McClain, an English
professor in Florida. They twice requested payment deferments while he
looked for a job but when they began repaying the loan, both his principal
and his monthly payment had risen again. The balance is now $46,198.88 at
just over 16 percent interest.

"They had us sign a pack of papers," Ms. McClain said. "Of course, it was as
big as a phone book and maybe I should have paid more attention. I just feel
so stupid."

Advocates trying to change the student loan system say culinary students
have a particularly difficult time with student loans.

"Truly the worst horror stories are from private culinary schools," said
Alan Collinge, who founded the grass-roots lobbying group Student Loan
Justice and collects information from people with student loan problems.
"The story is always the same. The school convinces the student they are
going to be the next Julia Child or Wolfgang Puck, and the student will sign
anything."

Many culinary students come from blue-collar families and do not have the
financial experience to navigate the world of college costs, Ms. Sykes
Hendee said. "The majority of students are the first people going to college
in their families," she said. "It's not the rich and famous going to
culinary school."

Culinary schools can only do so much to help students avoid trouble with
private loans, said Lynne Baker, a vice president of the Career Education
Corporation, a publicly traded company that runs more than 80 colleges.
Fourteen of those are culinary schools, including the Texas Culinary
Academy, which Mr. Park attended.

"We always steer our students to try to exhaust all their federal and state
loans before they look for alternative funding," Ms. Baker said. "This is a
national issue. The reality is the federal dollars just don't cut it for
students anymore."

Culinary training can cost more than other kinds of schooling, Ms. Baker and
other educators say, because classrooms are often small, fully equipped
kitchens, and supplies include expensive food and wine. And, she added, her
schools produce thousands of happy graduates, many of whom end up as
executive chefs at hotels or own their own restaurants.

Certainly, professional training can help cooks move up quickly through the
kitchen ranks. And culinary schools have produced many of the nation's
finest chefs.

But some of those chefs equivocate about whether the high cost of some
culinary degrees is worth it for someone who just wants to cook for a
living. Sufficient training could come from community colleges or other
basic programs that offer certificates for less than the cost of a year's
worth of books, equipment and uniforms at a brand-name culinary school.

"Cooking is a trade you do with your hands, so basically culinary school is
a $30,000 trade school," said Ann Cooper, a chef who serves as director of
nutrition for the Berkeley Unified School District in California. "What a
lot of schools tell these kids is they are going to be sous chefs making
$30,000 or $40,000 a year." A beginning restaurant cook, by contrast, may
earn about $20,000 a year.

Ms. Cooper is a 1977 graduate of the Culinary Institute of America in Hyde
Park, N.Y. When she attended, that school and Johnson & Wales University in
Rhode Island were at the top of a short list an ambitious student would
consider.

Today, the choices have ballooned. When Dorlene Kaplan began publishing the
ShawGuides to cooking schools in 1989, the book listed 125 professional
schools offering everything from simple certificates to four-year degrees.
Now, the book lists 447 schools.

Tim Ryan, the president of the Culinary Institute of America, estimates that
62,000 students are in culinary schools, 35 percent more than five years
ago.

About 72 percent of the schools that offer two- or four-year culinary
degrees are community colleges or public institutions, Mr. Ryan said. The
rest are run by for-profit companies like the Art Institutes and the Career
Education Corporation.

As a result of competition and of changes in the food industry, culinary
schools are maturing. More schools are becoming accredited, and top-tier
schools are raising academic standards and focusing on education beyond
mastering French sauces. Liberal arts or business courses train students to
work in a broader array of jobs like manufacturing, publishing, television
and food science.

Good SAT scores and some experience in the food industry are required to get
into the Culinary Institute of America, which has developed four-year tracks
that emphasize writing, business skills, marketing and technology as well as
cooking. A master's program is not far off, Mr. Ryan said.

But for thousands of young people with Michelin stars in their eyes, the
dream is not about working for a food corporation or mastering nutrition
science.

They want to cook. They just did not realize how deep in debt they would end
up.

Erica Reichlin said the California Culinary Institute in San Francisco,
which she graduated from in 2005, helped her build a good foundation of
culinary skills. But it also landed her almost $84,000 in debt, with a mix
of federal and private loans she used for tuition, housing and other costs.

After working at a restaurant and for a caterer in San Francisco, Ms.
Reichlin decided her culinary career and finances would be better served in
New York. Besides, it was home.

Now Ms. Reichlin, 29, is executive chef at a Long Island yacht club and a
line cook at a restaurant called CatFish Max in Seaford, N.Y. Her
grandfather co-signed a new loan, and her payments are now about $600 a
month at 8 percent interest.

Of the 32 people in her class at the culinary academy, she said, only 3 are
still cooking.

One of her classmates, she recalls, bragged at the beginning of their
program that he would make it to the Food Network.

"I was like, 'Are you kidding me?' " she said. "Now he's working at a
country club in Florida."

</>

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/us/08default.html
>
> May 8, 2007
>
> 'Top Chef' Dreams Crushed by Student Loan Debt
snip story
Thanks for posting that -- I've wondered whether there really was a pot of
gold for everyone at the end of training. I have a relative who 30+ years
ago did culinary training. He was executive chef at girls schools, colleges
and then a hospital and now he's either part owner or employed (never clear)
at a Harley diner. His wife works and they have an at-home business. It's
a lot of hard work and odd hours and no glamour or big bucks.
Janet

On May 8, 5:46 am, "Janet B." > wrote:
> Thanks for posting that -- I've wondered whether there really was a pot of
> gold for everyone at the end of training. I have a relative who 30+ years
> ago did culinary training. He was executive chef at girls schools, colleges
> and then a hospital and now he's either part owner or employed (never clear)
> at a Harley diner. His wife works and they have an at-home business. It's
> a lot of hard work and odd hours and no glamour or big bucks.

Yes, thank you for posting the interesting article. My daughter is
considering Johnson & Wales and I'm glad to hear another pov.

Cooking for people you love must be different than cooking for the
public. It's got to take some of the fun out of it. And, it's hard
labor lifting heavy items. Plus, not everyone can be a star chef out
there. I imagine there's a lot of kitchen elves running a good
kitchen.

Karen

Karen wrote:
> On May 8, 5:46 am, "Janet B." > wrote:
>> Thanks for posting that -- I've wondered whether there really was a
>> pot of gold for everyone at the end of training. I have a relative
>> who 30+ years ago did culinary training. He was executive chef at
>> girls schools, colleges and then a hospital and now he's either part
>> owner or employed (never clear) at a Harley diner. His wife works
>> and they have an at-home business. It's a lot of hard work and odd
>> hours and no glamour or big bucks.
>
> Yes, thank you for posting the interesting article. My daughter is
> considering Johnson & Wales and I'm glad to hear another pov.
>
> Cooking for people you love must be different than cooking for the
> public. It's got to take some of the fun out of it.

Most difficult in that you cannot always cater to the public but you can
(usually) cater to the whims of family.

I heard a great line in a film over the weekend, very odd film featuring
Michael J. Fox and James Wood and Michael J. Fox was learning the life of a
cop. He was ordering in a restaurant and he asked (paraphrasing here),
"Could I get the Cobb salad without the ham and could I get raspberry
vinaigrette instead of the house Thousand Island dressing?" And the server
said, "NO, but *can* have what's on the menu." LOL

And, it's hard
> labor lifting heavy items. Plus, not everyone can be a star chef out
> there. I imagine there's a lot of kitchen elves running a good
> kitchen.
>
If you've ever worked in a professional kitchen, front of the house, back of
the house, either or... it is *very* hard work. And no, you don't wind up
with your personal 5-star restaurant or your name up in lights. You don't
wind up with cookbooks that sell millions. It's backbreaking work and the
hours are non-stop. From letting in the man who delivers the produce at 5AM
to seeing the last soux chef out the back door at midnight... it's back
breaking thankless work.

I would much rather cook for family and friends

Jill

Karen wrote:
> Yes, thank you for posting the interesting article. My daughter is
> considering Johnson & Wales and I'm glad to hear another pov.
I have lived in Providence near the J&W campus there. Perhaps this is
where your daughter would be attending?
I can tell you that the students are nothing but drunkards, drug users,
punks, and criminals. All college students drink. The J&W campus is
nothing like that. The J&W campus is like a ghetto with all the things
that you would expect to happen in a ghetto...rapes, burglaries,
assaults, drug dealing, etc etc.
No F-ing way any child of mine would go there.

On May 8, 11:36 am, CliffMacgillivray > wrote:
> I have lived in Providence near the J&W campus there. Perhaps this is
> where your daughter would be attending?
> I can tell you that the students are nothing but drunkards, drug users,
> punks, and criminals. All college students drink. The J&W campus is
> nothing like that. The J&W campus is like a ghetto with all the things
> that you would expect to happen in a ghetto...rapes, burglaries,
> assaults, drug dealing, etc etc.
> No F-ing way any child of mine would go there.

Yes, that is where she was planning on attending. OMG the J&W
representatives do not paint the picture like that!

Thank you very much.

Karen

Karen so bravely stated:
> On May 8, 11:36 am, CliffMacgillivray > wrote:
>> I have lived in Providence near the J&W campus there. Perhaps this is
>> where your daughter would be attending?
>> I can tell you that the students are nothing but drunkards, drug users,
>> punks, and criminals. All college students drink. The J&W campus is
>> nothing like that. The J&W campus is like a ghetto with all the things
>> that you would expect to happen in a ghetto...rapes, burglaries,
>> assaults, drug dealing, etc etc.
>> No F-ing way any child of mine would go there.
>
> Yes, that is where she was planning on attending. OMG the J&W
> representatives do not paint the picture like that!
>
> Thank you very much.
>
> Karen
>
My niece went there, and I have to agree with Cliff. Besides, J&W is
overpriced & over rated. She stayed for one semester, I believe, and she
said it was scary.

--
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't hold his head under 'til
the bubbles stop.
><<XX>:> Buddy

On May 8, 12:57 pm, Karen > wrote:
> On May 8, 5:46 am, "Janet B." > wrote:
>
> > Thanks for posting that -- I've wondered whether there really was a pot of
> > gold for everyone at the end of training. I have a relative who 30+ years
> > ago did culinary training. He was executive chef at girls schools, colleges
> > and then a hospital and now he's either part owner or employed (never clear)
> > at a Harley diner. His wife works and they have an at-home business. It's
> > a lot of hard work and odd hours and no glamour or big bucks.
>
> Yes, thank you for posting the interesting article. My daughter is
> considering Johnson & Wales and I'm glad to hear another pov.
>
> Cooking for people you love must be different than cooking for the
> public. It's got to take some of the fun out of it. And, it's hard
> labor lifting heavy items. Plus, not everyone can be a star chef out
> there. I imagine there's a lot of kitchen elves running a good
> kitchen.
>
> Karen

I don't know anything about the US system but in Ontario several of
the community colleges have excellent programs and , I believe, at
reasonable prices. They usually have good tie-ins with the local food
industry as well allowing a fair bit of work experience both aat the
college and in the local area (maybe even paid!) and good intro's to
the local job market. I

have also heard good things of the Cordon Bleu schools (albeit
expensive).

Just don't expect to get rich cooking. Investing in lottery tickets is
a better route to money.

Also don't forget that there are lots of cooking jobs that are not in
restaurants per se, ranging from prisons to golf clubs ( often with
the same clientele . Often these may not offer as much range in
cooking but may have much better hours and working conditions.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

On 2007-05-08, Gregory Morrow > wrote:

> Although the restaurant industry is expected to create two million
> new jobs....

.....the 20 million illegal immigrants will continue to keep wages
depressed.

Duh! There's a reason why our borders are wide open, and it's not
because we are unable to patrol them.

Also, the loan industry has payed off the politicians to kill off all
control of the industry and they can now charge just about any damn
thing they want. Way back when, I needed a quick n' dirty auto
insurance policy because of CAs then new mandatory insurance law and I
was in a tight financial situation. I found a short term policy that
allowed me to pay monthly. I was desperate and didn't pay attention,
but later discovered I was paying 86.5% interest!! It indicated it
right on the policy. Chrystonacrutch! ...so much for usury laws?

nb

notbob so bravely stated:
> On 2007-05-08, Gregory Morrow > wrote:
>
>> Although the restaurant industry is expected to create two million
>> new jobs....
>
> ....the 20 million illegal immigrants will continue to keep wages
> depressed.
Naw, it'll be the Republicans that continue to keep wages depressed
while secretly hiring the immigrants under the table and blaming
everything else under the sun ;-)

>
> Duh! There's a reason why our borders are wide open, and it's not
> because we are unable to patrol them.
>
> Also, the loan industry has payed off the politicians to kill off all
> control of the industry and they can now charge just about any damn
> thing they want. Way back when, I needed a quick n' dirty auto
> insurance policy because of CAs then new mandatory insurance law and I
> was in a tight financial situation. I found a short term policy that
> allowed me to pay monthly. I was desperate and didn't pay attention,
> but later discovered I was paying 86.5% interest!! It indicated it
> right on the policy. Chrystonacrutch! ...so much for usury laws?
>
> nb


--
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't hold his head under 'til
the bubbles stop.
><<XX>:> Buddy

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/us/08default.html
>
> May 8, 2007
>
> 'Top Chef' Dreams Crushed by Student Loan Debt
>
> By KIM SEVERSON
>
>
> "About 72 percent of the schools that offer two- or four-year culinary
> degrees are community colleges or public institutions, "
>
>
For those that "have to do it" a local community college may be a low cost
option, and may be a very good option. I took a class in "how to be a
somnelier"
at Diablo Valley College in Contra Costa Co., in CA, taught by Denis Kelly,
a well know cookbook author and wine maker. That class was in their
Restaurant
Management department. The cost was almost free. In a setting like this, you
can take any class or all classes.
BTW, Kim Severson is a well respected former food writer for the San
Francisco
Chronicle, about a mile from the California
Culinary Academy she writes about.

Kent

On May 9, 5:12 am, "Kent" > wrote:
> For those that "have to do it" a local community college may be a low cost
> option, and may be a very good option. I took a class in "how to be a
> somnelier"
> at Diablo Valley College in Contra Costa Co., in CA, taught by Denis Kelly,
> a well know cookbook author and wine maker. That class was in their
> Restaurant
> Management department. The cost was almost free. In a setting like this, you
> can take any class or all classes.
> BTW, Kim Severson is a well respected former food writer for the San
> Francisco
> Chronicle, about a mile from the California
> Culinary Academy she writes about.

San Francisco City College also has a good culinary certificate
program, I heard. But, I liked the idea that Johnson & Wales offers a
Bacherlor's program so that if the culinary thing didn't work out, one
could get a teaching credential or at least have that B.A. to work
with. BAs are like high school diplomas these days for kids. It's
minimum.

Karen

Karen wrote:
> On May 9, 5:12 am, "Kent" > wrote:
>> For those that "have to do it" a local community college may be a low cost
>> option, and may be a very good option. I took a class in "how to be a
>> somnelier"
>> at Diablo Valley College in Contra Costa Co., in CA, taught by Denis Kelly,
>> a well know cookbook author and wine maker. That class was in their
>> Restaurant
>> Management department. The cost was almost free. In a setting like this, you
>> can take any class or all classes.
>> BTW, Kim Severson is a well respected former food writer for the San
>> Francisco
>> Chronicle, about a mile from the California
>> Culinary Academy she writes about.
>
> San Francisco City College also has a good culinary certificate
> program, I heard. But, I liked the idea that Johnson & Wales offers a
> Bacherlor's program so that if the culinary thing didn't work out, one
> could get a teaching credential or at least have that B.A. to work
> with. BAs are like high school diplomas these days for kids. It's
> minimum.
>
> Karen
>

At one time a bachelors qualified you for all sorts of positions. I find
it amazing how so many positions now require an advanced degree. Now
high school seems to be grade school level and a bachelors seems to be
high school level.

The other day I was talking to my nephew who is working on a doctorate
in pharmacology because he wants to be a pharmacist.

> At one time a bachelors qualified you for all sorts of positions. I find
> it amazing how so many positions now require an advanced degree. Now
> high school seems to be grade school level and a bachelors seems to be
> high school level.
>
> The other day I was talking to my nephew who is working on a doctorate
> in pharmacology because he wants to be a pharmacist.

My sister is a pharmacist. Got her PharmD from UOP. The doctor's
degree is not the same as a doctorate in medicine nor the same as a
doctorate in education. I believe it can be done in four years.

Karen

Karen > wrote:
> > The other day I was talking to my nephew who is working on a doctorate
> > in pharmacology because he wants to be a pharmacist.
> My sister is a pharmacist. Got her PharmD from UOP. The doctor's
> degree is not the same as a doctorate in medicine nor the same as a
> doctorate in education. I believe it can be done in four years.

To be a pharmacist, my dad first earned a 4-year BS and then had
an additional three years of pharmacy school. That was in the late
1960's in the US. Advanced education to be a pharmacist isn't new.
Some countries allow pharmacists to practice with just a 4 year degree,
but this isn't sufficient in the US. Now, students must have a
Pharmacy Doctorate, a 6-year degree. Check out "pharmacist" on Wiki.

Jnospam

In article . net>,
"Gregory Morrow" > wrote:

> Of the 32 people in her class at the culinary academy, she said,
> only 3 are still cooking.
>
> One of her classmates, she recalls, bragged at the beginning of
> their program that he would make it to the Food Network.
>
> "I was like, 'Are you kidding me?' " she said. "Now he's working
> at a country club in Florida."

Not to sound too curmudgeonly, but, as Ann Landers says, no one can
take advantage of you without your permission. How many of these
people realize that they are essentially placing a $30,000-$50,000
bet that they will be one of the very select few who become the
next Emeril or Julia or Thomas Keller or Alice Waters? That's like
going to college for four years in the hopes that you'll be the
next Roger Clemens or Willie Mays. Put in those terms, I wonder how
many would be willing to put their aspirations into perspective.

sd