JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

>
> What percentage of restaurants do you believe pay enough to make tips
> unimportant?

In Canada and the US none of them do. They all rely on the generosity of
customers to pay their staff.

Amarantha wrote:
The tipping system is barbaric IMO.



Agreed. The next question is what, if anything, can be done about it.
I'd love to wake up tomorrow and discover that restaurant tipping was a
thing of the past, that every restaurant management paid its servers an
appropriate hourly wage as it does its cooks, and that customers weren't
figuring 20%. The trouble is that if one restaurant did this, the
public wouldn't get it. They'd still expect to tip. That's not
unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
point.


--Lia

Julia Altshuler > wrote:

>Amarantha wrote:
>The tipping system is barbaric IMO.

>Agreed. The next question is what, if anything, can be done about it.
>I'd love to wake up tomorrow and discover that restaurant tipping was a
>thing of the past, that every restaurant management paid its servers an
>appropriate hourly wage as it does its cooks, and that customers weren't
>figuring 20%. The trouble is that if one restaurant did this, the
>public wouldn't get it. They'd still expect to tip. That's not
>unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
>going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
>menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
>that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
>one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
>point.

From nearly anyone's point of view there is no point in getting
rid of the tipping system. If it were somehow eliminated by
fiat, some diners would decide to tip anyway in an effort to
gain better service. Within a short length of time, we'd
be back exactly where we are now. So it'd be a pointless
exercise.

Steve

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> Agreed. The next question is what, if anything, can be done about it.
> I'd love to wake up tomorrow and discover that restaurant tipping was a
> thing of the past, that every restaurant management paid its servers an
> appropriate hourly wage as it does its cooks, and that customers weren't
> figuring 20%. The trouble is that if one restaurant did this, the
> public wouldn't get it. They'd still expect to tip. That's not
> unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
> going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
> menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
> that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
> one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
> point.


We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for those,
usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are not
expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
treated like dancing monkeys.

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> From nearly anyone's point of view there is no point in getting
> rid of the tipping system. If it were somehow eliminated by
> fiat, some diners would decide to tip anyway in an effort to
> gain better service. Within a short length of time, we'd
> be back exactly where we are now. So it'd be a pointless
> exercise.


If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because one of
my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have the option of
throwing big tips myself or walking out and never coming back.

"Dave Smith" > wrote

> We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
> working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
> content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
> token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for
> those,
> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
> wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
> not
> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
> treated like dancing monkeys.

He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
Sounds like a jerk to me.

nancy

Dave Smith wrote:

> If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because one of
> my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have the option of
> throwing big tips myself or walking out and never coming back.


Or complaining to management. If I got bad service in a supermarket, a
mechanic's garage, a doctor's office, a department store, a bookstore, a
drycleaner, pharmacy, or any of a hundred other sorts of stores and
services, I'd consider my options. Not returning with my business is
one. Considering if I'm just in a bad mood is another. And complaining
to management is a pretty good one. In many cases, they want to know.


I'm not sure I've ever been in a restaurant situation where I thought
someone else was getting better service because they were throwing
bigger tips. (I've had to think about this one.) Usually bad service
is a matter of an incompetent server or incompetent management which
puts the server in an impossible situation. I think this is why I'd do
away with the whole tipping business if I could wave my magic wand and
do it. As far as I can see, tipping is just a complicated and stupid
way of paying wages.


--Lia

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>
>> We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
>> working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
>> content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
>> token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for
>> those,
>> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
>> wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
>> not
>> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
>> treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.
>
> nancy
>

Au contraire, Ms. N. It's your responsibility as a traveller to research the
customs in the countries you visit. It's not so hard to do, but since 54% of
the population here doesn't read....

Nancy Young wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>
>> We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
>> working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. He seemed quite
>> content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than
>> a token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect
>> for those,
>> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as
>> flaunting wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize
>> that tips are not
>> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate
>> being treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.

I will bet he doesn't refuse them either!

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because
>> one of my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have
>> the option of throwing big tips myself or walking out and never
>> coming back.
>
>
> Or complaining to management. If I got bad service in a supermarket,
> a mechanic's garage, a doctor's office, a department store, a
> bookstore, a drycleaner, pharmacy, or any of a hundred other sorts of
> stores and services, I'd consider my options. Not returning with my
> business is one. Considering if I'm just in a bad mood is another. And
> complaining to management is a pretty good one. In many cases,
> they want to know.
>
> I'm not sure I've ever been in a restaurant situation where I thought
> someone else was getting better service because they were throwing
> bigger tips. (I've had to think about this one.) Usually bad service
> is a matter of an incompetent server or incompetent management which
> puts the server in an impossible situation. I think this is why I'd
> do away with the whole tipping business if I could wave my magic wand
> and do it. As far as I can see, tipping is just a complicated and
> stupid way of paying wages.

Or a way of allowing management to pay low wages

Nancy Young wrote:
>
> > usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
> > wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
> > not
> > expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate being
> > treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.


Sure he probably knows that it is customary to tip in the US, but he is not
in the US. If you expect him to understand that it is customary to tip in
the US, the USians should be equally aware that it is not customary there.
He wasn't really a jerk. He was very pleasant. His attitude was that if you
want to throw money at him go ahead, but don't expect to be respected for
it.

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:
>
>
>
> I think what the public wouldn't comprehend is their hamburger is now
> $12.00 instead of $8.00.


Did you just pull that $12 or was there a rational accounting that came to
that amount?

Around here there is 7% federal tax and 7 % provincial tax do there goes
another $1.12 and then the 15% tip which seems to be expected whether it
arrives in 15 minutes with a sneer or 5 minutes with a smile... another
$1.20 So now my $8 hamburger is $10.32. If we expect servers to be paid
15% of their sales, and most jurisdictions assess them at 15% of sales at
tax time, then the restaurant should be charging that price, and if every
restaurant charges $10. 32 instead of making it $8 plus the 14% tax plus
the expectation of 15% tip they wouldn't be worrying about the menu price
as a way of hiding the true total cost of the meal.






>
> > They'd still expect to tip. That's not
> > unreasonable when you consider a lifetime of doing it one way isn't
> > going to be undone when they see (or don't see) a small notice on the
> > menu. It would take a huge public education effort, and I can't imagine
> > that any restaurant or government agency would be willing to undertake
> > one. And why would they? From their point of view, there would be no
> > point.
>
> IMO the government is alread entirely too involved in our every day lives.
> Last I heard the IRS taxed wait staff on their "sales" and not the actual
> money a server earns. Sooooo... technically a server could wind up losing
> money if they had a bad night. OTOH, if your theory were enacted, the
> server would make the same if they had a good or a bad night. I suppose
> there are pros and cons to each side of the debate.
>
> Michael
>
> --
> This is how it works in my house. Click the pic to enlarge it:
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=42ko0mf
> -remove "foodie" to email

Dave Smith > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> From nearly anyone's point of view there is no point in getting
>> rid of the tipping system. If it were somehow eliminated by
>> fiat, some diners would decide to tip anyway in an effort to
>> gain better service. Within a short length of time, we'd
>> be back exactly where we are now. So it'd be a pointless
>> exercise.

>If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because one of
>my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have the option of
>throwing big tips myself or walking out and never coming back.

I think you do have such an option, what you don't have
any option about (or very few easy options) is whether you live
in a culture where tipping is typical. My own view is that
a tipping culture inevitably develops in societies with
a large amount of wealth diversity because in such societies
(1) you have significant people with "excess" wealth who will
be trying to buy themselves better treatment and (2) in such
societies it's routine to pay some workers less than a living
wage. For most of the past century the U.S. has met this
definition of a wealth-diversity society much closer than
western Europe has. But with economic shifts wealth diversity
is on the rise in Europe also, and so is tipping at restaurants.
This is no coincidence.

I just read that in the U.S. one percent of households now have
a net worth exceeding $5 million ("pentamillionaires"). I'm
guessing that in restaurants above the mid-price level
the fractoin of pentamillionaire customers is 10% or more.
Do you think these people are going to refrain from tipping,
if they think it buys them something?

Steve

"Ophelia" > wrote

> Nancy Young wrote:

>> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
>> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
>> Sounds like a jerk to me.
>
> I will bet he doesn't refuse them either!

My thoughts exactly, Ophelia. Bet he doesn't say up front,
no tipping please! Just waits until they tip so he can sneer up
his sleeve at them.

nancy

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:
>
> When in Germany I would tip per German customs. When in the US tip as an
> American would. When traveling outside the US I have always researched the
> tipping norms in the location I will be traveling. Besides restaurants
> this includes tipping for cab/car fare, hotel maids etc.

Well, the thing is that is what you are going to pay anyway, so why do we
have to play these silly marketing games that disguise the actual cost. If
the hamburger on the menu is $8 you buy it thinking that it is going to
cost you $8, but when you get the bill you see that now there is tax that
has been added to the bill, and you are expected to leave a tip, and it is
likely to be rounded off at $10.50, so why not just list the price at
$10.50 and everyone knows that if they order a hamburger it will cost them
$10.50 and there won't be any surprises.



> I don't disagree with the gratuity being added to a check total. My
> questions would be how would it be done without escalating menu prices to
> unaffordable prices?

If you don't mind it being added to the check, then why should it be a
problem having it added to the menu price along with a note that service
and tax are included? What you see is what you pay. Having eaten in a
number of European countries where tipping was not expected, it was a
pleasant surprise to see a price on the menu and to get the bill and see
was all that I had to pay.

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> I think you do have such an option, what you don't have
> any option about (or very few easy options) is whether you live
> in a culture where tipping is typical. My own view is that
> a tipping culture inevitably develops in societies with
> a large amount of wealth diversity because in such societies

Diversity being the key word. It is a matter of service industries having
staff who work for pitifully low wages and who are expected to hop to it
with the service so that the wealthy can toss them a little stipend to
ingratiate them.


> (1) you have significant people with "excess" wealth who will
> be trying to buy themselves better treatment and (2) in such
> societies it's routine to pay some workers less than a living
> wage.

The snag there is that a lot of people are wealthy because they are
miserly.


> I just read that in the U.S. one percent of households now have
> a net worth exceeding $5 million ("pentamillionaires"). I'm
> guessing that in restaurants above the mid-price level
> the fractoin of pentamillionaire customers is 10% or more.
> Do you think these people are going to refrain from tipping,
> if they think it buys them something?

On the other end you have the poor. One site I found indicated that (in
2001) 1% of the population 33.45 of all wealth in the US, another 4%
accounted for 155 of the country's wealth and then at the far end where the
40% of the population who shared 0.3% of the wealth.

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote
>
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>
>>> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
>>> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
>>> Sounds like a jerk to me.
>>
>> I will bet he doesn't refuse them either!
>
> My thoughts exactly, Ophelia. Bet he doesn't say up front,
> no tipping please! Just waits until they tip so he can sneer up
> his sleeve at them.

Yep! Two faced git(

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...
> Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:
>> maxine in ri >
>> oups.com:
>>
>>> On Mother's day, almost every restaurant will be busy most of the
>>> afternoon. The Lewandowski's should have accepted the restaurant's
>>> offer of a different table, and the Harris party, if the kids were as
>>> wild as described, been offered the door, with their meals gratis.
>>> As it was, the restaurant was shut for 2 hours, 100 other customers
>>> were cleared out, and the restaurant probably lost more money than
>>> if they had taken preventative action.
>>>
>>> But then, who knew the folks would riot?
>>>
>>> maxine in ri
>>
>> LOL... Can you imagine trying to explain your arrest to someone
>> else... "errr... I slapped the lady at the table next to ours because
>> her kid wouldn't shut up." Gawd!
>>
>> Michael
>
> Actually, it was the lady with the infant who threw the first punch. The
> older woman simply yelled at the kid to SHUT UP! after repeated requests
> to
> the mother to quiet the baby yielded no results. I'd have changed tables
> or
> found another place to eat. But as has been mentioned, in a place like
> Golden Corral with a buffet (shudder) you'd have to expect kids... lots of
> 'em.
>
> Jill
>
Golden Corral is a scary place. My best friend and I used like going there
when we were hungover, as they had good yeast rolls and we could pig out on
mashed potatoes and macaroni and junk like that. However, I wouldn't want
anyone else to spot me there!

I've never experienced better service in restaurants than I've seen
living in Japan where there is no tipping. Sone of the worst service I
see in the modernized world is in my home country, the USA, where
tipping is expected.

I certainly prefer eating out in Japan. If a restaurant doesn't provide
good service (rare), you simply don't return. If good service, taste,
and value are delivered, they get lots of return business.

Cheers! -- Rik


--
Rik Brown
Message Origin: TRAVEL.com

Steve Pope wrote:

> Do you think these people are going to refrain from tipping,
> if they think it buys them something?


I snipped most of your post to zero in on this last question though I
think you make an interesting point. My question is does the tip buy
them something?


I don't go to very high end restaurants with entrees in the $50 or
higher range. I do sometimes go to restaurants with entrees in the $30
range. That, for me, is a special event. We frequently go to
restaurants with entrees in the $15 range. That's frequently, a lot,
every week.


So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but in my experience,
tipping doesn't buy better service. In my experience, the more
expensive the restaurant, the more formal the service. Less expensive
restaurants might have more informal service, but the staff is still
friendly and helpful, and the food still arrives in a timely manner. On
those rare occasions (exceedingly rare) when the service is truly bad,
as in rude, I won't tip or won't go back or will say something to
management, but that's happened such a small handful of times that I
could probably recount them. And of those times, there's been something
the matter with the food too.


I wonder, if I were exceedingly rich and if I were dining in those
places where $50 entrees are the norm with wine on top of it, would a
larger than 20% tip really get me better service? I doubt it, but I
really don't know.


--Lia

Michael "Dog3" Lonergan wrote:

> Now that I think about it, I do mind gratuity being added to the check. It
> takes away my option to not tip for lousy service.


I mind it being added to the check too.


How often have you really had to tip less because of lousy service? It
hasn't happened to me too often. I'm wondering about others' experience
with this. (And separate out lousy service from something else wrong
with the restaurant like bad food or too loud music.)


--Lia

Julia Altshuler > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> Do you think these people are going to refrain from tipping,
>> if they think it buys them something?

>I snipped most of your post to zero in on this last question though I
>think you make an interesting point. My question is does the tip buy
>them something?
>
>
>I don't go to very high end restaurants with entrees in the $50 or
>higher range. I do sometimes go to restaurants with entrees in the $30
>range. That, for me, is a special event. We frequently go to
>restaurants with entrees in the $15 range. That's frequently, a lot,
>every week.

>So maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but in my experience,
>tipping doesn't buy better service. In my experience, the more
>expensive the restaurant, the more formal the service. Less expensive
>restaurants might have more informal service, but the staff is still
>friendly and helpful, and the food still arrives in a timely manner. On
>those rare occasions (exceedingly rare) when the service is truly bad,
>as in rude, I won't tip or won't go back or will say something to
>management, but that's happened such a small handful of times that I
>could probably recount them. And of those times, there's been something
>the matter with the food too.

>I wonder, if I were exceedingly rich and if I were dining in those
>places where $50 entrees are the norm with wine on top of it, would a
>larger than 20% tip really get me better service? I doubt it, but I
>really don't know.

One datapoint I have is a friend who tips between 25% and 50%
at any restaurant, and he receives the best service of anybody
I know.

However, it's not just the numerical tip amount, I think, but
his total approach to the situation.

I tip between 20% and 25%, as a general rule. I seem to
consistently receive what I consider to be good service in restaurants
for which others sometimes report occassional bad service. I
do not know if there is an actual relationship here; it's hard
to say. But I don't see any percentage in tipping lower than
I do if I am happy with the restaurant and its staff.

Steve

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:

> One thing that irritates the shit out of me is dining out with people that
> need a calculator to subtract the tax on the check and then tip on the
> check total minus the sales tax. Gawd... we're talking pennies in most
> cases. There is a difference between being frugal and being just plain
> cheap. To me this type of tipping is just cheap.

I don't think it is cheap. The taxes here add up to 14%, and that is not
counting the exorbitant taxes on liquor and wine. The rule of thumb is 15%
of the cost of the meal. If you are treating another couple for dinner the
bill could easily run $200 plus tax...... another $28..... another $4.20 as
a bonus for the server who did absolutely nothing for that tax.


> I go out to enjoy dinner, not to agonize over the tip. Life is just too
> short to worry about it. If my check total is $50 I just tack on 20-25%,
> or between $10 and $15. To me it is just easier that way, and much less
> hassle.

Lucky for your server, but what happens if he had a table for 10 and some
tightwad is looking after the bill and leaves not tip, or just a few
dollars. My nephew once waited on a party of ten. The guy is a good waiter
and usually makes good money in tips. No one complained to him about the
food or the service. The big shot who was hosting the party went and spoke
to the manager and complained about the food..... the food that everyone
ate and never complained about to my nephew.... and the guy was comped.
After paying nothing for dinner for 10 in a nice (and expensive)
restaurant, the cheap SOB left a measly $5 tip. My understanding is that
when you get a freebie you should still tip on what the bill would have
been, and in that case, dinner for 10 would have run close to $1,000, hence
a $150 tip.

The worst part is that income tax is based on sales, and he would have been
assessed $150 taxable income that he never got.

Michael \"Dog3\" Lonergan wrote:

> One thing that irritates the shit out of me is dining out
> with people that need a calculator to subtract the tax on the
> check and then tip on the check total minus the sales tax.
> Gawd... we're talking pennies in most cases. There is a
> difference between being frugal and being just plain cheap.
> To me this type of tipping is just cheap.

You may want to look up dyscalculia on Wikipedia or somewhere.
There is a few percent of the population who could not come
up with even a very approximate tip without a calculator.

I agree if they're just doing this to fine-tune a tip percentage
that is semi-obnoxious.

Steve

On May 16, 9:56�am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote
>
> > We had an interesting discussion about tipping with a (French) waiter
> > working in a hotel dining room in southern Germany. *He seemed quite
> > content with his remuneration, which did not include tips other than a
> > token amount for good service. He indicated a certain disrespect for
> > those,
> > usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as flaunting
> > wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize that tips are
> > not
> > expected, and not particularly appreciated. *They don't appreciate being
> > treated like dancing monkeys.
>
> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
> the opportunity to sniff a them for doing what they think is right.
> Sounds like a jerk to me.

And naturally the hipocritical jerk does not forego taking the tip.

The only ones I've ever known who don't like the concept of tipping
and don't are those who never frequent the same eatery more than
once... of course the cheap *******s wouldn't dare. People can have
all the reasons in the world but the only true reason certain
individuals (and even entire communities) don't tip is because they're
afflicted with CCBD (Chronic Cheap ******* Disease).

Sheldon

Sheldon wrote:
>
>
> The only ones I've ever known who don't like the concept of tipping
> and don't are those who never frequent the same eatery more than
> once... of course the cheap *******s wouldn't dare. People can have
> all the reasons in the world but the only true reason certain
> individuals (and even entire communities) don't tip is because they're
> afflicted with CCBD (Chronic Cheap ******* Disease).

Yeah right. You are probably like an acquaintance of mine known as Cheap
Bob, who makes a grand production of a 25 cent tip for a bottle of beer and
expects the waiter to kiss his ass all night.

If you feel so bloody generous how about going back and slipping tips to
the cooks, the dishwashers and the busboys.

Dave Smith wrote:

> The worst part is that income tax is based on sales, and he would have been
> assessed $150 taxable income that he never got.


This is one more reason I would wave my magic wand and get rid of the
tipping system.


Much as I hate the tipping system, the story of your nephew getting
stiffed isn't a huge argument against it. The problem in your story is
that management was a wimp. In my version, when the host complained
about the food, the manager tells him that he's very sorry that he was
disappointed. When the host complains louder, the manager tells him
that he's very sorry and perhaps the host would prefer not to return to
the restaurant. When the host refuses to pay for the meal, the manager
calls the police and perhaps takes the jerk to court if necessary. But
that's my version, not what happened.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't income tax based on getting a 7% tip
on sales? So if a server gets stiffed one time, and tipped 15-20% of
sales the rest of the time, income tax still works out. (It's been ages
since I worked as a server, and there was no income tax on tips at that
time. When I read about the new tax, it was for the U.S.)


--Lia

Steve Pope wrote:
I seem to
> consistently receive what I consider to be good service in restaurants
> for which others sometimes report occasional bad service. I
> do not know if there is an actual relationship here; it's hard
> to say. But I don't see any percentage in tipping lower than
> I do if I am happy with the restaurant and its staff.


I think we're coming to the point of our agreement here. I'm the sort
who is generally happy with the service I get in restaurants. I think
you are too. There's considerable disagreement amongst restaurant
diners as to what constitutes good service. One customer loves it when
the server is at the table every few minutes. Another server wants to
be left alone. (I'm in the latter category.) All servers can do is do
their best.


--Lia

"Rik Brown" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've never experienced better service in restaurants than I've seen
> living in Japan where there is no tipping. Sone of the worst service I
> see in the modernized world is in my home country, the USA, where
> tipping is expected.
>
> I certainly prefer eating out in Japan. If a restaurant doesn't provide
> good service (rare), you simply don't return. If good service, taste,
> and value are delivered, they get lots of return business.
>


ditto Italy

Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> Dave Smith wrote:
>
> > The worst part is that income tax is based on sales, and he would have been
> > assessed $150 taxable income that he never got.
>
> This is one more reason I would wave my magic wand and get rid of the
> tipping system.
>
> Much as I hate the tipping system, the story of your nephew getting
> stiffed isn't a huge argument against it.

It was just an an example of how the server can get shafted when dealing
with a tightwad like this guy. He was the son of a local wine maker. The
whole family are cheap SOBs.

> The problem in your story is that management was a wimp.

I agree. The restaurant lost money on that one too.

>In my version, when the host complained
> about the food, the manager tells him that he's very sorry that he was
> disappointed. When the host complains louder, the manager tells him
> that he's very sorry and perhaps the host would prefer not to return to
> the restaurant. When the host refuses to pay for the meal, the manager
> calls the police and perhaps takes the jerk to court if necessary. But
> that's my version, not what happened.

It would work for me. The guy is a notoriously cheap SOB, and who needs the
business if he is going to insist on being comped. You don't make money off
people like that.



> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't income tax based on getting a 7% tip
> on sales? So if a server gets stiffed one time, and tipped 15-20% of
> sales the rest of the time, income tax still works out. (It's been ages
> since I worked as a server, and there was no income tax on tips at that
> time. When I read about the new tax, it was for the U.S.)

Until recently I thought it was only in the US, but my son is a waiter and
bartender in Montreal and he gets income tax deducted from his pay based on
15% of his sales.


PS..... Don't buy Chateau des Charmes wines.

Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
>
> I think we're coming to the point of our agreement here. I'm the sort
> who is generally happy with the service I get in restaurants. I think
> you are too. There's considerable disagreement amongst restaurant
> diners as to what constitutes good service. One customer loves it when
> the server is at the table every few minutes. Another server wants to
> be left alone. (I'm in the latter category.) All servers can do is do
> their best.

I'm with you. I am polite and friendly to servers and want them around only
when I want something. I don't want them coming by every few minutes to
check on me and to ask me how things are when I have a mouthful of food.
Some people seem to be on more of a power trip and expect the server to
hover and cater to their every wish.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think we're coming to the point of our agreement here. I'm the sort
>> who is generally happy with the service I get in restaurants. I think
>> you are too. There's considerable disagreement amongst restaurant
>> diners as to what constitutes good service. One customer loves it when
>> the server is at the table every few minutes. Another server wants to
>> be left alone. (I'm in the latter category.) All servers can do is do
>> their best.
>
> I'm with you. I am polite and friendly to servers and want them around
> only
> when I want something. I don't want them coming by every few minutes to
> check on me and to ask me how things are when I have a mouthful of food.
> Some people seem to be on more of a power trip and expect the server to
> hover and cater to their every wish.


How about the servers who address a mixed gender group of patrons as "guys"?
I knock 1% off the tip every time I hear that. The owner of my favorite
restaurant gives new servers three chances to break the habit, or they're
fired.

Ophelia wrote:
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>> Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>>> If I am in a restaurant and notice that I am being neglected because
>>> one of my waiter's other customers is throwing bigger tips I have
>>> the option of throwing big tips myself or walking out and never
>>> coming back.
>>
>>
>> I'm not sure I've ever been in a restaurant situation where I thought
>> someone else was getting better service because they were throwing
>> bigger tips. (I've had to think about this one.) Usually bad
>> service is a matter of an incompetent server or incompetent
>> management which puts the server in an impossible situation. I
>> think this is why I'd do away with the whole tipping business if I
>> could wave my magic wand and do it. As far as I can see, tipping is
>> just a complicated and stupid way of paying wages.
>
> Or a way of allowing management to pay low wages

We've been over this topic a million times but what the heck. I also don't
agree with the pay the server next to nothing and leave it up to the patron
to make up the difference. All too often it doesn't happen. Yet the server
is required by law to report tips as a percentage of total sales, whether
they made that much money in tips or not. It's grossly unfair to the
server, especially if they repeatedly get customers who think a 25 cent tip
is perfectly fine for a $50 meal and making the server run their ass off.

Unfortunately, the minimum wage for servers is written into the laws in the
States. Restaurant owners are more than happy to cut a $60/week paycheck
and not care whether the server actually made enough to pay their bills.
It's ridiculous.

Jill

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> Steve Pope wrote:
>
>> Do you think these people are going to refrain from tipping,
>> if they think it buys them something?
>
> I snipped most of your post to zero in on this last question though I
> think you make an interesting point. My question is does the tip buy
> them something?
>
I don't know if the tip buys them anything or not, Lia. It's impossible to
tell since, rich or not, the server has no idea how much they've been tipped
until the party leaves the restaurant, unless they hand the tip to the
server on the front end (rare) and say, "Take good care of us". For all we
know they have the server running their ass off throughout the meal,
ordering all the expensive items and expensive wines, then they stiff the
server or leave something like 5%.

Jill

Dave Smith wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>>> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as
>>> flaunting wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize
>>> that tips are not
>>> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate
>>> being treated like dancing monkeys.
>>
>> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
>> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
>> Sounds like a jerk to me.
>
> Sure he probably knows that it is customary to tip in the US, but he
> is not in the US. If you expect him to understand that it is
> customary to tip in the US, the USians should be equally aware that
> it is not customary there. He wasn't really a jerk. He was very
> pleasant. His attitude was that if you want to throw money at him go
> ahead, but don't expect to be respected for it.

Considering the tipping customs vary in so many countries how is anyone
supposed to keep up?! I can't recall who it was earlier in the thread
(Lia?) said tipping a small gratuity is expected in Italy even though the
menu price includes service, or something like that. So if I'm travelling
and I go from France to Italy to Hungary, for example, I'm supposed to have
something akin to Cliff's Notes handy to tell me what to do whenever I cross
a border? Just curious. Most people I know who have visited Europe aren't
just going to one country.

Jill

Dave Smith wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
>>
>>
>> The only ones I've ever known who don't like the concept of tipping
>> and don't are those who never frequent the same eatery more than
>> once... of course the cheap *******s wouldn't dare. People can have
>> all the reasons in the world but the only true reason certain
>> individuals (and even entire communities) don't tip is because
>> they're afflicted with CCBD (Chronic Cheap ******* Disease).
>
> Yeah right. You are probably like an acquaintance of mine known as
> Cheap Bob, who makes a grand production of a 25 cent tip for a bottle
> of beer and expects the waiter to kiss his ass all night.
>
> If you feel so bloody generous how about going back and slipping tips
> to the cooks, the dishwashers and the busboys.

That's what tip-sharing is for. And the restaurants I worked in divvied up
tip-shares for the busboys, dishwashers and bartenders at the end of the
server's shift (I *know*; I used to have to calculate them and set them
aside in envelopes for those staff members). This despite the fact those
same people receiving tip shares made at least minimum wage whereas the
server did not.

Jill

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Smith wrote:
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>>>
>>>> usually American, who leave hefty tips because the viewed it as
>>>> flaunting wealth and ignorance sine they apparently did not realize
>>>> that tips are not
>>>> expected, and not particularly appreciated. They don't appreciate
>>>> being treated like dancing monkeys.
>>>
>>> He knows that it's customary for Americans to tip but he takes
>>> the opportunity to sniff at them for doing what they think is right.
>>> Sounds like a jerk to me.
>>
>> Sure he probably knows that it is customary to tip in the US, but he
>> is not in the US. If you expect him to understand that it is
>> customary to tip in the US, the USians should be equally aware that
>> it is not customary there. He wasn't really a jerk. He was very
>> pleasant. His attitude was that if you want to throw money at him go
>> ahead, but don't expect to be respected for it.
>
> Considering the tipping customs vary in so many countries how is anyone
> supposed to keep up?!>
> Jill


How? Jill - are you becoming a Republican? The solution is a newfangled
invention called a book. There are plenty of books for travellers, about the
customs in other countries. When in doubt, ask airline attendants or hotel
staff.

In article >,
says...
> We've been over this topic a million times but what the heck. I also don't
> agree with the pay the server next to nothing and leave it up to the patron
> to make up the difference. All too often it doesn't happen. Yet the server
> is required by law to report tips as a percentage of total sales, whether
> they made that much money in tips or not.
>

For the 900th friggin time, this is FALSE!!! Look at the IRS
regulations, I did.

--
Peter Aitken

jmcquown wrote:

> Considering the tipping customs vary in so many countries how is anyone
> supposed to keep up?! I can't recall who it was earlier in the thread
> (Lia?) said tipping a small gratuity is expected in Italy even though the
> menu price includes service, or something like that.


Nah, wasn't me. I'd love to be someone who had traveled in Italy such
that I could comment on their tipping customs, but I'm not.



So if I'm travelling
> and I go from France to Italy to Hungary, for example, I'm supposed to have
> something akin to Cliff's Notes handy to tell me what to do whenever I cross
> a border? Just curious. Most people I know who have visited Europe aren't
> just going to one country.


Of all the customs to get used to when traveling, how much to tip
doesn't sound like the most difficult. That information is readily
available in travel guides, or from asking the first person you meet.
More difficult are matters of safety, getting medical care, replacing
medications, approaching strangers or members of the opposite sex,
language, etc.


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> jmcquown wrote:
>
>> Considering the tipping customs vary in so many countries how is anyone
>> supposed to keep up?! I can't recall who it was earlier in the thread
>> (Lia?) said tipping a small gratuity is expected in Italy even though the
>> menu price includes service, or something like that.
>
>
> Nah, wasn't me. I'd love to be someone who had traveled in Italy such
> that I could comment on their tipping customs, but I'm not.
>
>
>
> So if I'm travelling
>> and I go from France to Italy to Hungary, for example, I'm supposed to
>> have
>> something akin to Cliff's Notes handy to tell me what to do whenever I
>> cross
>> a border? Just curious. Most people I know who have visited Europe
>> aren't
>> just going to one country.
>
>
> Of all the customs to get used to when traveling, how much to tip doesn't
> sound like the most difficult. That information is readily available in
> travel guides, or from asking the first person you meet. More difficult
> are matters of safety, getting medical care, replacing medications,
> approaching strangers or members of the opposite sex, language, etc.
>
>
> --Lia
>

Here's an interesting pitfall: The mother of a Puerto Rican friend told me
there were two ways to say "Take the bus" in Spanish. Both were OK in Puerto
Rico. But, in Argentina (or it might've been Venezuela), one of the two ways
is also slang for "Have sex with a child". I will definitely call her for a
refresher course if I ever travel to South America.