On Jul 11, 10:04 am, Bobo Bonobo® > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 7:53 am, Dee Dee > wrote:
>
> > On Jul 10, 11:36 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
> > > Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>
> > >http://www.marke****ch.com/news/stor...rmer-chief-foo....
>
> > > or
>
> > >http://tinyurl.com/2amfgp
>
> > > nancy
>
> > Yes, but I wonder how many other people it will teach. Not one,
> > according to death penalty opponents; i.e., death penalty is not a
> > deterrent to anyone else.
>
> It doesn't deter crimes of passion, crimes of desperation, and I doubt
> it does much to deter organized crime killings, but you can bet your
> ass it'd deter white collar murder (see my "One Chinese import..."
> post)
>
>
>
> > Dee Dee
>
> --Bryan

"Kill one, scare 10,000"?
Dee Dee

On Jul 11, 10:08 am, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
>
>
>
>
>
> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
> > "Peter" > wrote in message
> >news:jQSki.27843$tB5.10552@edtnps90...
>
> > > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> "Phil Evans" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > >>>I believe its called premeditated murder if you plan it, so yes,
> > >>> under the present law there is a huge difference.
>
> > >>> Even so, I am not passing judgement on this one.
>
> > >> If you stop a killing, it *usually* will not be considered murder of any
> > >> kind, unless you're in one of the weird states.
>
> > > You are willing to let a loved one to be murdered in the name of your
> > > government because they prevented a murder of someone else and were
> > > charged by murder themselves?
>
> > WHAT?? :-)
>
> > Let's start over, so you understand where I'm coming from here. If someone
> > enters my home at 3:00 AM and my son is here, I will assume (correctly) that
> > they intend to harm us, and I will kill them instantly. There will be no
> > discussion, no warning, nothing. Just a simple process. When the cops are
> > done with their questions and paperwork, I will have an early breakfast and
> > continue as if nothing happened. Good ammo costs about 75 cents per round.
> > I'm a generous guy, and it would be rude not to share.
>
> > Now we can continue. What was your question?
>
> Interestingly enough, that is what is recommended. Intruders into your
> home to be shot on sight if you are SURE that it's a stranger that does
> not belong there.
>
> No warning.
>
> You do, of course, realize that unless you are one helluva good shot,
> there is no guarantee of a one shot kill.
>
> I have a shotgun loaded with buckshot, but still...
>
> I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
> the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
> for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
>
> <sigh>
> --
> Peace, Om
>
Yes, and don't forget forgiveness.
Dee Dee

"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
...
>
> Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
> prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out they
> were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose occupants were
> home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to find
> out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>
> I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>

Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no parole
than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in the
US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending on
the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is about
$250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average. The
cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved are
much higher due to the automatic appeal system.

Numbers for the Department of Prisons.

--

Joe Cilinceon

In article . com>,
Dee Dee > wrote:

> > I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
> > the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
> > for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
> >
> > <sigh>
> > --
> > Peace, Om
> >
> Yes, and don't forget forgiveness.
> Dee Dee

Be my guest... ;-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:01:20 -0400, "Nancy Young" >
wrote:

>
>"Dee Dee" > wrote
>
>> On Jul 10, 11:36 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>> Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>
>> Yes, but I wonder how many other people it will teach. Not one,
>> according to death penalty opponents; i.e., death penalty is not a
>> deterrent to anyone else.
>
>How does anyone know that? Maybe there are murders that
>didn't happen because someone was afraid of the death penalty.
>
>I'm just saying. I'm not an opponent or proponent. Just
>commenting on the idea anyone can make an unprovable statement
>like that.
>
There are no statistics for what *didn't* happen, only for what
happened. So, we'll never know for sure. I can tell you that *I*
don't live in fear and I don't own a lethal weapon.
--

History is a vast early warning system
Norman Cousins

On Jul 11, 1:16 pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article . com>,
> Dee Dee > wrote:
>
> > > I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
> > > the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
> > > for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
>
> > > <sigh>
> > > --
> > > Peace, Om
>
> > Yes, and don't forget forgiveness.
> > Dee Dee
>
> Be my guest... ;-)
> Peace, Om

God May Forgive You But I Won't
Artist(Band):Iris Dement

Chorus:
'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
They don't have to live with you and neither do I
You say that you're born again, well so am I
God may forgive you, but I won't
and I won't even try

I wondered if anyone knew this song, although it applies to a cheating
husband.
Dee Dee

"Dee Dee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jul 11, 1:16 pm, Omelet > wrote:
>> In article . com>,
>> Dee Dee > wrote:
>>
>> > > I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more
>> > > about
>> > > the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's
>> > > ok
>> > > for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
>>
>> > > <sigh>
>> > > --
>> > > Peace, Om
>>
>> > Yes, and don't forget forgiveness.
>> > Dee Dee
>>
>> Be my guest... ;-)
>> Peace, Om
>
> God May Forgive You But I Won't
> Artist(Band):Iris Dement
>
> Chorus:
> 'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
> Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
> They don't have to live with you and neither do I
> You say that you're born again, well so am I
> God may forgive you, but I won't
> and I won't even try
>
> I wondered if anyone knew this song, although it applies to a cheating
> husband.
> Dee Dee


Newt Gingrich! Born again, for a specific purpose, and just until the next
election.

On Jul 11, 12:50 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
> > prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out they
> > were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose occupants were
> > home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to find
> > out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>
> > I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>
> Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no parole
> than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in the
> US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending on
> the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is about
> $250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average. The
> cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved are
> much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>
> Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>
> --
>
> Joe Cilinceon

Maybe it depends on what state you are living.http://
www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf
North Carolina 2.16 million.
Dee Dee

"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote

> Nancy Young > wrote:
>>Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>
> BTW, they didn't execute him.
>
> They sentenced him to die, but the execution isn't
> scheduled to be carried out for two years, and by then it
> will probably be reduced to life imprisonment.

The article said they executed him Tuesday.

nancy

Dee Dee wrote:
>
> God May Forgive You But I Won't
> Artist(Band):Iris Dement
>
> Chorus:
> 'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
> Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
> They don't have to live with you and neither do I
> You say that you're born again, well so am I
> God may forgive you, but I won't
> and I won't even try
>
> I wondered if anyone knew this song, although it applies to a cheating
> husband.
> Dee Dee
>


Was this on the album she recorded with John Prine? What's it called,
In Spite of Ourselves?

Bob

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:08:47 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>
>> "Peter" > wrote in message
>> news:jQSki.27843$tB5.10552@edtnps90...
>> >
>> > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> "Phil Evans" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>>I believe its called premeditated murder if you plan it, so yes,
>> >>> under the present law there is a huge difference.
>> >>>
>> >>> Even so, I am not passing judgement on this one.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> If you stop a killing, it *usually* will not be considered murder of any
>> >> kind, unless you're in one of the weird states.
>> >
>> >
>> > You are willing to let a loved one to be murdered in the name of your
>> > government because they prevented a murder of someone else and were
>> > charged by murder themselves?
>> >
>>
>> WHAT?? :-)
>>
>> Let's start over, so you understand where I'm coming from here. If someone
>> enters my home at 3:00 AM and my son is here, I will assume (correctly) that
>> they intend to harm us, and I will kill them instantly. There will be no
>> discussion, no warning, nothing. Just a simple process. When the cops are
>> done with their questions and paperwork, I will have an early breakfast and
>> continue as if nothing happened. Good ammo costs about 75 cents per round.
>> I'm a generous guy, and it would be rude not to share.
>>
>> Now we can continue. What was your question?
>
>Interestingly enough, that is what is recommended. Intruders into your
>home to be shot on sight if you are SURE that it's a stranger that does
>not belong there.
>
>No warning.
>
>You do, of course, realize that unless you are one helluva good shot,
>there is no guarantee of a one shot kill.
>
>I have a shotgun loaded with buckshot, but still...
>
>I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
>the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
>for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
>
><sigh>

sure, why not be a killer, too? it's so fun and e-z.

what bothers me is the evident relish some people take in blowing some
theoretical intruder's head off. 'yeah! i'm a ****ing tough guy!
don't mess with me!' it just strikes me as childish.

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:43:50 GMT, "JoeSpareBedroom"
> wrote:

>"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...
>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>>> "zxcvbob" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>>>>> So, it's OK to kill them at the moment the crime is about to happen.
>>>>>>> But, after a jury trial, it's not? I'm confused. Does the value of
>>>>>>> the perp's life change with the passage of time?
>>>>>> Yes it does; I'm surprised you would have to ask. (You are purposely
>>>>>> ignoring the value of the lives of the victims)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>> Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying. Like most normal people,
>>>>> you'd be OK with killing someone at the moment when they're about to do
>>>>> something violent to a family member. But, after they've killed a
>>>>> family member, and been through a trial, you're NOT OK with killing
>>>>> them?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a matter of timing? Is that what you're saying?
>>>>
>>>> Killing the the murderer after-the-fact does not bring back the victims.
>>>> Killing him during-the-act does, so to speak. Stopping him without
>>>> killing him is even better, but the primary goal is just to stop him
>>>> (keep shooting until he is no longer a threat, then you stop shooting)
>>>>
>>>> IIRC, you claim to have a CCW license. You should have had this drilled
>>>> into you during your training.
>>>>
>>>> I used to be for the death penalty. If someone did murder a friend or
>>>> family member now, I think I would still be against executing them --
>>>> but if the state executed them anyway, I don't think I'd be very upset
>>>> about it. Or maybe I discover that I'm a hypocrite and I'll want to
>>>> pull the switch myself. I'd just as soon not find out either way.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess I look to bears for guidance. Once they've got you down, you're
>>> not a threat. But, they'll still remove your face or your guts, just to
>>> be sure.
>>
>>
>> If you're first shot is good enough, the rest is just academic.
>>
>> Bob
>
>I know I shouldn't, but I've been practicing this slick shot through the
>throat. Severs the spine and the bad guy gets really peaceful. Less of a
>mess than the chest, too, at least for a few minutes.
>

neatness counts!

your pal,
blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:08:47 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Peter" > wrote in message
>>> news:jQSki.27843$tB5.10552@edtnps90...
>>> >
>>> > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>> > ...
>>> >> "Phil Evans" > wrote in message
>>> >> ...
>>> >>>I believe its called premeditated murder if you plan it, so yes,
>>> >>> under the present law there is a huge difference.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Even so, I am not passing judgement on this one.
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >> If you stop a killing, it *usually* will not be considered murder of
>>> >> any
>>> >> kind, unless you're in one of the weird states.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > You are willing to let a loved one to be murdered in the name of your
>>> > government because they prevented a murder of someone else and were
>>> > charged by murder themselves?
>>> >
>>>
>>> WHAT?? :-)
>>>
>>> Let's start over, so you understand where I'm coming from here. If
>>> someone
>>> enters my home at 3:00 AM and my son is here, I will assume (correctly)
>>> that
>>> they intend to harm us, and I will kill them instantly. There will be no
>>> discussion, no warning, nothing. Just a simple process. When the cops
>>> are
>>> done with their questions and paperwork, I will have an early breakfast
>>> and
>>> continue as if nothing happened. Good ammo costs about 75 cents per
>>> round.
>>> I'm a generous guy, and it would be rude not to share.
>>>
>>> Now we can continue. What was your question?
>>
>>Interestingly enough, that is what is recommended. Intruders into your
>>home to be shot on sight if you are SURE that it's a stranger that does
>>not belong there.
>>
>>No warning.
>>
>>You do, of course, realize that unless you are one helluva good shot,
>>there is no guarantee of a one shot kill.
>>
>>I have a shotgun loaded with buckshot, but still...
>>
>>I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
>>the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
>>for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
>>
>><sigh>
>
> sure, why not be a killer, too? it's so fun and e-z.
>
> what bothers me is the evident relish some people take in blowing some
> theoretical intruder's head off. 'yeah! i'm a ****ing tough guy!
> don't mess with me!' it just strikes me as childish.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I don't relish the idea any more than I look forward to cleaning the toilet
or the BBQ grill. It's just something that needs to be done.

"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
...
> Peter wrote:
>
>
>> I'm not sure how killing a person solves a problem or makes a good
>> deterrent. It obviously does not work in China or the USA.
>>
>> As far as USA crime and death penalty is concerned, just look at other
>> western or civil countries, like Canada and various European
>> countries, compare crime statistics. I find it so ironic that the
>> USA questions Chinas human rights values.
>
> You mean like Canada having twice the rate of violent crime per 100,000
> people than America?
>

Dave, could you provide me with the source for this information?

"Dee Dee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jul 10, 11:36 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>> Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>>
>> http://www.marke****ch.com/news/stor...rmer-chief-foo...
>>
>> or
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/2amfgp
>>
>> nancy
>
> Yes, but I wonder how many other people it will teach. Not one,
> according to death penalty opponents; i.e., death penalty is not a
> deterrent to anyone else.
>
> Dee Dee


Thats just the way it is. Look how many people keep getting added to the
list. Obviously they knew they could be murdered by their government when
caught, but why didn't that stop them?

"Peter" > wrote in message
news:ahali.29822$Io4.8505@edtnps89...
>
> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> On Jul 10, 11:36 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>> Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>>>
>>> http://www.marke****ch.com/news/stor...rmer-chief-foo...
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/2amfgp
>>>
>>> nancy
>>
>> Yes, but I wonder how many other people it will teach. Not one,
>> according to death penalty opponents; i.e., death penalty is not a
>> deterrent to anyone else.
>>
>> Dee Dee
>
>
> Thats just the way it is. Look how many people keep getting added to the
> list. Obviously they knew they could be murdered by their government when
> caught, but why didn't that stop them?


Same reason we break the speed limit. We all gamble, some of us to a greater
extent than others.

On Jul 11, 3:05 pm, zxcvbob > wrote:
> Dee Dee wrote:
>
> > God May Forgive You But I Won't
> > Artist(Band):Iris Dement
>
> > Chorus:
> > 'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
> > Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
> > They don't have to live with you and neither do I
> > You say that you're born again, well so am I
> > God may forgive you, but I won't
> > and I won't even try
>
> > I wondered if anyone knew this song, although it applies to a cheating
> > husband.
> > Dee Dee
>
> Was this on the album she recorded with John Prine? What's it called,
> In Spite of Ourselves?
>
> Bob- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I don't know. But I know the song through DH's playing it for me. I
hope he's taking it to heart.;-))
Dee Dee

In article .com>,
Dee Dee > wrote:

> On Jul 11, 1:16 pm, Omelet > wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > Dee Dee > wrote:
> >
> > > > I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
> > > > the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
> > > > for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
> >
> > > > <sigh>
> > > > --
> > > > Peace, Om
> >
> > > Yes, and don't forget forgiveness.
> > > Dee Dee
> >
> > Be my guest... ;-)
> > Peace, Om
>
> God May Forgive You But I Won't
> Artist(Band):Iris Dement
>
> Chorus:
> 'cause God may forgive you, but I won't
> Yes, Jesus loves you, but I don't
> They don't have to live with you and neither do I
> You say that you're born again, well so am I
> God may forgive you, but I won't
> and I won't even try
>
> I wondered if anyone knew this song, although it applies to a cheating
> husband.
> Dee Dee

Cheating Husbands, Serial killers...

Same same? <eg>
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:50:58 -0400, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:

>
>Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no parole
>than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in the
>US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending on
>the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is about
>$250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average. The
>cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved are
>much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>
>Numbers for the Department of Prisons.

The SOVIETS would wait 1 > 2 weeks after the death sentence,
then dispatch the convict with a bullet to the back of the head.

Total cost.... about fifteen cents.

I guess you can make it as complicated as you want.

<rj>

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:08:47 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
> >
> >> "Peter" > wrote in message
> >> news:jQSki.27843$tB5.10552@edtnps90...
> >> >
> >> > "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >> "Phil Evans" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >>>I believe its called premeditated murder if you plan it, so yes,
> >> >>> under the present law there is a huge difference.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Even so, I am not passing judgement on this one.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> If you stop a killing, it *usually* will not be considered murder of
> >> >> any
> >> >> kind, unless you're in one of the weird states.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > You are willing to let a loved one to be murdered in the name of your
> >> > government because they prevented a murder of someone else and were
> >> > charged by murder themselves?
> >> >
> >>
> >> WHAT?? :-)
> >>
> >> Let's start over, so you understand where I'm coming from here. If someone
> >> enters my home at 3:00 AM and my son is here, I will assume (correctly)
> >> that
> >> they intend to harm us, and I will kill them instantly. There will be no
> >> discussion, no warning, nothing. Just a simple process. When the cops are
> >> done with their questions and paperwork, I will have an early breakfast
> >> and
> >> continue as if nothing happened. Good ammo costs about 75 cents per round.
> >> I'm a generous guy, and it would be rude not to share.
> >>
> >> Now we can continue. What was your question?
> >
> >Interestingly enough, that is what is recommended. Intruders into your
> >home to be shot on sight if you are SURE that it's a stranger that does
> >not belong there.
> >
> >No warning.
> >
> >You do, of course, realize that unless you are one helluva good shot,
> >there is no guarantee of a one shot kill.
> >
> >I have a shotgun loaded with buckshot, but still...
> >
> >I think the thing that bothers me is that many seem to worry more about
> >the rights of the criminal versus the rights of their victims. It's ok
> >for them to kill their victims, but we have to let them live?
> >
> ><sigh>
>
> sure, why not be a killer, too? it's so fun and e-z.
>
> what bothers me is the evident relish some people take in blowing some
> theoretical intruder's head off. 'yeah! i'm a ****ing tough guy!
> don't mess with me!' it just strikes me as childish.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Fear for the safety of one's family is generally the driving factor.

I'm not afraid of death. In fact, I don't really give much of a rats ass
about my own life. Truly. I'm not suicidal or anything, it's just not
something that really concerns me, but then, I believe in life after
death and reincarnation.

I'm far more afraid of loss...

Especially after having experienced it. (Not due to an intruder, but
still....)

Killing an intruder for me would be a rather nasty experience, but if
they were to threaten a family member, all bets are off.

Nothing Macho about it babe, nor would it be fun.
I'd probably need therapy, but that would not stop me.

The only reason I even bother with self-defense with my CHL is that I
have people and pets that depend on me for their care and income. Same
reason I have life insurance.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:

> > sure, why not be a killer, too? it's so fun and e-z.
> >
> > what bothers me is the evident relish some people take in blowing some
> > theoretical intruder's head off. 'yeah! i'm a ****ing tough guy!
> > don't mess with me!' it just strikes me as childish.
> >
> > your pal,
> > blake
>
> I don't relish the idea any more than I look forward to cleaning the toilet
> or the BBQ grill. It's just something that needs to be done.

Cleaning the toilet is a rather apt analogy. ;-)

Well done.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Peter wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Peter wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm not sure how killing a person solves a problem or makes a good
>>> deterrent. It obviously does not work in China or the USA.
>>>
>>> As far as USA crime and death penalty is concerned, just look at
>>> other western or civil countries, like Canada and various European
>>> countries, compare crime statistics. I find it so ironic that the
>>> USA questions Chinas human rights values.
>>
>> You mean like Canada having twice the rate of violent crime per
>> 100,000 people than America?
>>
>
> Dave, could you provide me with the source for this information?

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collectio...85-205-XIE.pdf

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"Dee Dee" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Jul 11, 12:50 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> > Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
>> > prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out they
>> > were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose occupants
>> > were
>> > home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to
>> > find
>> > out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>>
>> > I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>>
>> Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no
>> parole
>> than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in
>> the
>> US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending
>> on
>> the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is
>> about
>> $250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average.
>> The
>> cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved
>> are
>> much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>>
>> Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Joe Cilinceon
>
> Maybe it depends on what state you are living.http://
> www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf
> North Carolina 2.16 million.
> Dee Dee
>

It does what state one is in. I had a typo it is 2.5 million per execution
not 250 million, didn't hit the decimal point. Either way it takes 66 years
at 30K per year to equal 2 million. Average life span in prison is rarely
more than 30 years.

Either way it is cheaper to put them away and loose the key than kill them.

Joe

"Joe Cilinceon" > wrote in message
...
> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> On Jul 11, 12:50 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>>> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
>>> > prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out they
>>> > were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose occupants
>>> > were
>>> > home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to
>>> > find
>>> > out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>>>
>>> > I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>>>
>>> Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no
>>> parole
>>> than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in
>>> the
>>> US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending
>>> on
>>> the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is
>>> about
>>> $250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average.
>>> The
>>> cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved
>>> are
>>> much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>>>
>>> Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Joe Cilinceon
>>
>> Maybe it depends on what state you are living.http://
>> www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf
>> North Carolina 2.16 million.
>> Dee Dee
>>
>
> It does what state one is in. I had a typo it is 2.5 million per execution
> not 250 million, didn't hit the decimal point. Either way it takes 66
> years at 30K per year to equal 2 million. Average life span in prison is
> rarely more than 30 years.
>
> Either way it is cheaper to put them away and loose the key than kill
> them.
>
> Joe

I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to house
all these murderers.

"<RJ>" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:50:58 -0400, "Joe Cilinceon" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no parole
>>than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in
>>the
>>US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending on
>>the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is
>>about
>>$250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average.
>>The
>>cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved
>>are
>>much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>>
>>Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>
> The SOVIETS would wait 1 > 2 weeks after the death sentence,
> then dispatch the convict with a bullet to the back of the head.
>
> Total cost.... about fifteen cents.
>
> I guess you can make it as complicated as you want.
>
> <rj>

Yes that is true. In some countries they just simply cut off your head and
be done with it. However in the US due to our desire for innocent until
proven guilty, proving someone's guilt can be costly in both prosecution and
defense. It really boils down to what you want freedom or a police state
where being accused is the same as guilty.

Joe

>JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
...
>
> I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to house
> all these murderers.

Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live in a
country that loves its punishment.

Joe

"Joe Cilinceon" > wrote in message
...
> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to house
>> all these murderers.
>
> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live in
> a country that loves its punishment.
>
> Joe
>

That sounds a bit cynical. What do YOU think we should do with murders?

"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
...
> "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to
>>> house all these murderers.
>>
>> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live
>> in a country that loves its punishment.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>
> That sounds a bit cynical. What do YOU think we should do with murders?
>

Lock them up and through away the key, it is cheaper than executing them in
the US by far. Also very few people charged with murder get the death
sentence. Murderers are probably a small percentage of those serving prison
time in the US. Nothing cynical at all since I don't have a personal opinion
either way.

Joe

On Jul 11, 4:08 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 12:50 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> >> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> >> > Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
> >> > prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out they
> >> > were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose occupants
> >> > were
> >> > home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to
> >> > find
> >> > out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>
> >> > I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>
> >> Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no
> >> parole
> >> than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate in
> >> the
> >> US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500 depending
> >> on
> >> the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is
> >> about
> >> $250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national average.
> >> The
> >> cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees involved
> >> are
> >> much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>
> >> Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>
> >> --
>
> >> Joe Cilinceon
>
> > Maybe it depends on what state you are living.http://
> >www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf
> > North Carolina 2.16 million.
> > Dee Dee
>
> It does what state one is in. I had a typo it is 2.5 million per execution
> not 250 million, didn't hit the decimal point. Either way it takes 66 years
> at 30K per year to equal 2 million. Average life span in prison is rarely
> more than 30 years.
>
> Either way it is cheaper to put them away and loose the key than kill them.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Provided the key is not kept in the hands of the parole board.
Dee Dee

"Dee Dee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> On Jul 11, 4:08 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Jul 11, 12:50 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>> >> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>> >> > Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
>> >> > prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out
>> >> > they
>> >> > were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose
>> >> > occupants
>> >> > were
>> >> > home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to
>> >> > find
>> >> > out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>>
>> >> > I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>>
>> >> Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no
>> >> parole
>> >> than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate
>> >> in
>> >> the
>> >> US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500
>> >> depending
>> >> on
>> >> the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is
>> >> about
>> >> $250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national
>> >> average.
>> >> The
>> >> cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees
>> >> involved
>> >> are
>> >> much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>>
>> >> Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>>
>> >> --
>>
>> >> Joe Cilinceon
>>
>> > Maybe it depends on what state you are living.http://
>> >www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf
>> > North Carolina 2.16 million.
>> > Dee Dee
>>
>> It does what state one is in. I had a typo it is 2.5 million per
>> execution
>> not 250 million, didn't hit the decimal point. Either way it takes 66
>> years
>> at 30K per year to equal 2 million. Average life span in prison is rarely
>> more than 30 years.
>>
>> Either way it is cheaper to put them away and loose the key than kill
>> them.
>>
>> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Provided the key is not kept in the hands of the parole board.
> Dee Dee
>

If the sentencing states no parole then they shouldn't get one ever, or at
least till they are so old they physically couldn't commit another crime. I
have no problems with those rules at all. My only point is under our system,
which means serious money in appeal costs that are automatic, it isn't cost
effective to put a person to death. I also have a feeling that spending the
rest of ones life in prison is worse than death.

Joe

flitterbit wrote:
> Peter wrote:
>> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Peter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not sure how killing a person solves a problem or makes a good
>>>> deterrent. It obviously does not work in China or the USA.
>>>>
>>>> As far as USA crime and death penalty is concerned, just look at
>>>> other western or civil countries, like Canada and various European
>>>> countries, compare crime statistics. I find it so ironic that the
>>>> USA questions Chinas human rights values.
>>> You mean like Canada having twice the rate of violent crime per
>>> 100,000 people than America?
>>>
>>
>> Dave, could you provide me with the source for this information?
>>
>>
> His statement appears to be inaccurate, at least according to
> Statistics Canada:

Sorry, but my statement is accurate. There are four categories that are used
by both Canada and America which define violent crime:

Murder
Rape
Robbery
Aggravated Assault.

The stats for violent crime in 2003 (the last year compiled for Canada):

2003 American violent crime rate per 100,000 = 475.8

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...ime/index.html

2003 Canadian violent crime rate per 100,000 = 963

http://www.disastercenter.com:80/crime/uscrime.htm

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

On Jul 11, 4:23 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to house
> > all these murderers.
>
> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live in a
> country that loves its punishment.
>
> Joe

I've never noticed that this country loves punishment.
Dee Dee

On Jul 11, 5:38 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
>
> oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 4:08 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> >> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
>
> roups.com...
>
> >> > On Jul 11, 12:50 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
> >> >> "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>
> >> ...
>
> >> >> > Somewhat related: An author whose name I forget did interviews with
> >> >> > prisoners to get their views on homeowners being armed. Turns out
> >> >> > they
> >> >> > were quite fearful of mistakenly burglarizing a house whose
> >> >> > occupants
> >> >> > were
> >> >> > home at the time. Perhaps someone has also interviewed criminals to
> >> >> > find
> >> >> > out whether the death penalty mattered to them.
>
> >> >> > I still don't believe it, though. Seems statistically "loose".
>
> >> >> Economically it is cheaper to put a person in jail for life with no
> >> >> parole
> >> >> than put them to death. The average annual operating cost per inmate
> >> >> in
> >> >> the
> >> >> US is $22650. It can be as high as $30000 to as low as $14500
> >> >> depending
> >> >> on
> >> >> the state. The average cost to put a person to death in California is
> >> >> about
> >> >> $250 Million per execution which is pretty close to a national
> >> >> average.
> >> >> The
> >> >> cost to house the prisoner is about the same but the legal fees
> >> >> involved
> >> >> are
> >> >> much higher due to the automatic appeal system.
>
> >> >> Numbers for the Department of Prisons.
>
> >> >> --
>
> >> >> Joe Cilinceon
>
> >> > Maybe it depends on what state you are living.http://
> >> >www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/COcosttestimony.pdf
> >> > North Carolina 2.16 million.
> >> > Dee Dee
>
> >> It does what state one is in. I had a typo it is 2.5 million per
> >> execution
> >> not 250 million, didn't hit the decimal point. Either way it takes 66
> >> years
> >> at 30K per year to equal 2 million. Average life span in prison is rarely
> >> more than 30 years.
>
> >> Either way it is cheaper to put them away and loose the key than kill
> >> them.
>
> >> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Provided the key is not kept in the hands of the parole board.
> > Dee Dee
I also have a feeling that spending the
> rest of ones life in prison is worse than death.
>
> Joe- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I pray one never has to experience that feeling.

I have known a few people who have been seriously ill and have said
in the past that they would rather die than go thru this-and-that
treatment. Then actually it does happen -- guess what! The tables
have turned.
One never knows.
Dee Dee

Peter wrote:
> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Peter wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I'm not sure how killing a person solves a problem or makes a good
>>> deterrent. It obviously does not work in China or the USA.
>>>
>>> As far as USA crime and death penalty is concerned, just look at other
>>> western or civil countries, like Canada and various European
>>> countries, compare crime statistics. I find it so ironic that the
>>> USA questions Chinas human rights values.
>> You mean like Canada having twice the rate of violent crime per 100,000
>> people than America?
>>
>
> Dave, could you provide me with the source for this information?
>
>
His statement appears to be inaccurate, at least according to Statistics
Canada:

http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepu...85-002-XIE.pdf

<begin excerpt>

Highlights

• A comparison of police-reported crime rates between Canada and the
United States for 2000 shows that the U.S. has much higher rates of
violent crime, while Canada generally has higher rates of property
crime. Despite differences in rates, trends in crime between the two
countries have been quite similar over the past twenty years.

• In Canada, there were 542 homicides in 2000 resulting in a national
rate of 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. By comparison, there were
15,517 homicides in the U.S., resulting in a rate (5.5) three times
higher than Canada’s.

• Both countries have seen a decline in the number of homicides during
the past decade, particularly in the U.S. Twenty years ago, the American
homicide rate was about four times that of Canada.

• Similarly, the aggravated assault rate in the U.S. was more than
double the Canadian rate in 2000. The U.S. also showed a higher rate of
robbery (65% higher) than Canada. About 41% of robberies in the U.S.
involved a firearm, compared to 16% in Canada.

• Canada reported higher rates for three of the four comparable property
offences. There were about 30% more break-ins and motor vehicle thefts
per capita in Canada than the U.S. in 2000. While Canada has had a
higher rate of break-ins since the early 1980s, the motor vehicle theft
rate has only surpassed the American rate over the last five years. The
arson rate in Canada was 40% higher than in the U.S., while the U.S.
reported 11% more thefts per capita than Canada.

• In examining arrest/charge data, the U.S. had much higher rates for
drug offences, impaired driving and prostitution.

• The report also compares crime rates among the nine largest
metropolitan areas in each country. With the exception of Boston, the
remaining eight large American metropolitan areas had homicide
rates much higher than any of the nine largest Canadian metropolitan
areas. Conversely, Vancouver and Winnipeg reported higher rates of
break-ins and motor vehicle thefts than any of the nine
American metropolitan areas.

<end excerpt>

"Dee Dee" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> On Jul 11, 4:23 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> > I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to
>> > house
>> > all these murderers.
>>
>> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live
>> in a
>> country that loves its punishment.
>>
>> Joe
>
> I've never noticed that this country loves punishment.
> Dee Dee
>

We have more people in prison per capita than any nation on the planet. Most
people serving prison terms are in for non violent crimes, drugs being the
highest number. Now this also includes you local jails and stockades for
short term offenders.

Joe

"Joe Cilinceon" > wrote in message
...
> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> On Jul 11, 4:23 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>>> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>> > I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to
>>> > house
>>> > all these murderers.
>>>
>>> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live
>>> in a
>>> country that loves its punishment.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>
>> I've never noticed that this country loves punishment.
>> Dee Dee
>>
>
> We have more people in prison per capita than any nation on the planet.
> Most people serving prison terms are in for non violent crimes, drugs
> being the highest number. Now this also includes you local jails and
> stockades for short term offenders.
>
> Joe
>

Good luck with the drug offenders. Until cops and pushers are disconnected
from the financial benefits of drugs being illegal, the problem will
continue. Cash is more addictive than some of the drugs.

"Joe Cilinceon" > wrote in message
...
> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> On Jul 11, 4:23 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>>> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>> > I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to
>>> > house
>>> > all these murderers.
>>>
>>> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live
>>> in a
>>> country that loves its punishment.
>>>
>>> Joe
>>
>> I've never noticed that this country loves punishment.
>> Dee Dee
>>
>
> We have more people in prison per capita than any nation on the planet.
> Most people serving prison terms are in for non violent crimes, drugs
> being the highest number. Now this also includes you local jails and
> stockades for short term offenders.


Which doesn't demonstrate that America loves to punish, it demonstrates that
criminals are punished.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

"JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
...
> "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
>> ps.com...
>>> On Jul 11, 4:23 pm, "Joe Cilinceon" > wrote:
>>>> >JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> > I wonder if the figures account for having to build more prisons to
>>>> > house
>>>> > all these murderers.
>>>>
>>>> Oh they would build the prisons regardless of how many murders. We live
>>>> in a
>>>> country that loves its punishment.
>>>>
>>>> Joe
>>>
>>> I've never noticed that this country loves punishment.
>>> Dee Dee
>>>
>>
>> We have more people in prison per capita than any nation on the planet.
>> Most people serving prison terms are in for non violent crimes, drugs
>> being the highest number. Now this also includes you local jails and
>> stockades for short term offenders.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>
> Good luck with the drug offenders. Until cops and pushers are disconnected
> from the financial benefits of drugs being illegal, the problem will
> continue. Cash is more addictive than some of the drugs.
>

Yes I do agree with that assessment, just a different kind of probation and
remember what that gave us last time with alcohol. Just understand that what
I've said is based solely on what I have read and seen reported. It doesn't
necessarily reflect my opinions on crime and punishment. Though I tend to
believed in live and let live to a point, I do have a point where all bets
are off.

Joe

On Jul 11, 10:29 am, Dee Dee > wrote:
> On Jul 11, 10:04 am, Bobo Bonobo® > wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jul 11, 7:53 am, Dee Dee > wrote:
>
> > > On Jul 10, 11:36 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
> > > > Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>
> > > >http://www.marke****ch.com/news/stor...rmer-chief-foo...
>
> > > > or
>
> > > >http://tinyurl.com/2amfgp
>
> > > > nancy
>
> > > Yes, but I wonder how many other people it will teach. Not one,
> > > according to death penalty opponents; i.e., death penalty is not a
> > > deterrent to anyone else.
>
> > It doesn't deter crimes of passion, crimes of desperation, and I doubt
> > it does much to deter organized crime killings, but you can bet your
> > ass it'd deter white collar murder (see my "One Chinese import..."
> > post)
>
> > > Dee Dee
>
> > --Bryan
>
> "Kill one, scare 10,000"?

If capitalists were as afraid of losing their lives as working people
are of losing their jobs or health insurance, the First World would be
a better place for most people.

> Dee Dee

--Bryan

Bobo Bonobo® wrote:
> On Jul 11, 10:29 am, Dee Dee > wrote:
>> On Jul 11, 10:04 am, Bobo Bonobo® > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Jul 11, 7:53 am, Dee Dee > wrote:
>>
>>>> On Jul 10, 11:36 am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>>>> Yikes. Guess that'll teach him.
>>
>>>>> http://www.marke****ch.com/news/stor...rmer-chief-foo...
>>
>>>>> or
>>
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/2amfgp
>>
>>>>> nancy
>>
>>>> Yes, but I wonder how many other people it will teach. Not one,
>>>> according to death penalty opponents; i.e., death penalty is not a
>>>> deterrent to anyone else.
>>
>>> It doesn't deter crimes of passion, crimes of desperation, and I
>>> doubt it does much to deter organized crime killings, but you can
>>> bet your ass it'd deter white collar murder (see my "One Chinese
>>> import..." post)
>>
>>>> Dee Dee
>>
>>> --Bryan
>>
>> "Kill one, scare 10,000"?
>
> If capitalists were as afraid of losing their lives as working people
> are of losing their jobs or health insurance, the First World would be
> a better place for most people.

So, working people are never capitalists?
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com