Ruhlman answered my query about pastrami. Well, it was a response. He
forwarded my question to Brian Polcyn about dry cures vs brining the
beef before smoking it. Polcyn responded that a dry cure would work,
but that it would take longer. Polcyn also said "Montreal beef the
cousin to pastrami is sometimes dry cured in a few areas."

They appear to have stayed away from what is traditional.

Now I have to find out about Montreal beef.
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:

> Ruhlman answered my query about pastrami. Well, it was a response. He
> forwarded my question to Brian Polcyn about dry cures vs brining the
> beef before smoking it. Polcyn responded that a dry cure would work,
> but that it would take longer. Polcyn also said "Montreal beef the
> cousin to pastrami is sometimes dry cured in a few areas."
>
> They appear to have stayed away from what is traditional.
>
> Now I have to find out about Montreal beef.


Thanks for getting back to me, Mike. Perhaps it would be interesting to
compare the results side-by-side.

Victor

"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in
:

> Now I have to find out about Montreal beef.
>

Road Trip? Montreal Smoked Beef I think is the proper Name. I Think it is
availible in most large centers in Canada....very tasty in a sandwhich.

http://tinyurl.com/35j4ha for one recipe

--

The house of the burning beet-Alan

It'll be a sunny day in August, when the Moon will shine that night-
Elbonian Folklore

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:56:48 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:
>
>> Ruhlman answered my query about pastrami. Well, it was a response. He
>> forwarded my question to Brian Polcyn about dry cures vs brining the
>> beef before smoking it. Polcyn responded that a dry cure would work,
>> but that it would take longer. Polcyn also said "Montreal beef the
>> cousin to pastrami is sometimes dry cured in a few areas."
>>
>> They appear to have stayed away from what is traditional.
>>
>> Now I have to find out about Montreal beef.
>
>Thanks for getting back to me, Mike. Perhaps it would be interesting to
>compare the results side-by-side.
>
Indeed. This latest batch (from the Ruhlman/Polcyn book) was good,
but too salty, and the cure didn't make it to the center of the
brisket. There is a small, but significant, oval of uncured beef
inside the slabs o' meat. You can see it because it's not pink like
the cured parts.

I soaked some of the smoked meat in water overnight, and it's much
better after some of the salt cure has leached out of it. Maybe I
measured wrong this time around. Or maybe the chunk of meat wasn't
big enough for the amount of cure. That would explain the saltiness,
anyway. The uncured part, can only mean that it wasn't left in the
cure lone enough, which is a different matter.

This charcuterie topic is hugely complex, and I'm only here to dabble
in it, alas. And in the mix is the fact that I changed smokers
between batches. We have a lot of variables to track here.

Imagine the poor sods who first figured it out. It must have been a
nightmare.
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:03:00 GMT, hahabogus > wrote:

>"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in
:
>
>> Now I have to find out about Montreal beef.
>>
>
>Road Trip? Montreal Smoked Beef I think is the proper Name. I Think it is
>availible in most large centers in Canada....very tasty in a sandwhich.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/35j4ha for one recipe

Thanks Alan. My culinary world just grew bigger because of this info.
And I'm left to wonder about its effect on the development of Texas
barbecue via the Acadian Diaspora to the coast of the Gulf of Mexico
after "what went down on the plains of Abraham" -- as the song goes.

Maybe I should run up to Montreal sometime soon to get a sandwich.

Road trip!
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in
:

> On Sun, 15 Jul 2007 22:03:00 GMT, hahabogus > wrote:
>
>>"modom (palindrome guy)" > wrote in
m:
>>
>>> Now I have to find out about Montreal beef.
>>>
>>
>>Road Trip? Montreal Smoked Beef I think is the proper Name. I Think it
>>is availible in most large centers in Canada....very tasty in a
>>sandwhich.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/35j4ha for one recipe
>
> Thanks Alan. My culinary world just grew bigger because of this info.
> And I'm left to wonder about its effect on the development of Texas
> barbecue via the Acadian Diaspora to the coast of the Gulf of Mexico
> after "what went down on the plains of Abraham" -- as the song goes.

War of 1812? Where Canadians burned the white house (and I don't mean the
rib joint)?

> Maybe I should run up to Montreal sometime soon to get a sandwich.
>
> Road trip!
> --
>
> modom
>

I erred (yes again) its Montreal Smoked Meat... but made with beef. I can
get it here and you could probably get it in major City in Canada. It is a
Jewish invention and Winnipeg has a lot of Jews...not a bad thing when
talking food or anything else. But I'd try Montreal because of the other
foods...like their bagels, rye breads. Not that the rye bread here is bad
even Harry D praised it. And deli meats are best served on rye bread in my
world. A nice rye with a crust so hard you need a hacksaw to cut it.

--

The house of the burning beet-Alan

It'll be a sunny day in August, when the Moon will shine that night-
Elbonian Folklore

modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:

> Indeed. This latest batch (from the Ruhlman/Polcyn book) was good,
> but too salty, and the cure didn't make it to the center of the
> brisket. There is a small, but significant, oval of uncured beef
> inside the slabs o' meat. You can see it because it's not pink like
> the cured parts.

What is the texture like? Firm or fall-apart? Pastrami from Zabar's
had an almost fall-apart texture and this is often true of the Turkish
pastirma. Armenian basturma is always firm and often chewy, and has a
garlicky taste.

Victor

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:54:31 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:
>
>> Indeed. This latest batch (from the Ruhlman/Polcyn book) was good,
>> but too salty, and the cure didn't make it to the center of the
>> brisket. There is a small, but significant, oval of uncured beef
>> inside the slabs o' meat. You can see it because it's not pink like
>> the cured parts.
>
>What is the texture like? Firm or fall-apart? Pastrami from Zabar's
>had an almost fall-apart texture and this is often true of the Turkish
>pastirma. Armenian basturma is always firm and often chewy, and has a
>garlicky taste.
>
>Victor

Now you two are getting me interested in making some pastrami. I just
ordered curing salts from www.sausagemaker.com. I have the
Charcuterie book, and while bacon is first on my list to make from
that book, pastrami is sounding very good as well.
That and pancetta, if I can find a decent place to cure it. NM is not
exactly humid..and all I have is a fridge.

Christine

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:54:31 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:
>
>> Indeed. This latest batch (from the Ruhlman/Polcyn book) was good,
>> but too salty, and the cure didn't make it to the center of the
>> brisket. There is a small, but significant, oval of uncured beef
>> inside the slabs o' meat. You can see it because it's not pink like
>> the cured parts.
>
>What is the texture like? Firm or fall-apart? Pastrami from Zabar's
>had an almost fall-apart texture and this is often true of the Turkish
>pastirma. Armenian basturma is always firm and often chewy, and has a
>garlicky taste.
>
Initially this batch was firm, but I wrapped it in foil and roasted it
in a low oven for about 90 minutes to get it more tender. That wasn't
part of the recipe, but I mostly used the recipe for the proportions
of sugar, spices, salt and sodium nitrite in the cure. After that, I
had at it with the smoker. I know about smoking meat pretty much. The
recipe calls for roasting the pastrami in a water bath before carving.
The texture of my pastrami now is more like somewhat underdone Texas
barbecue beef. It's too firm to be right in the barbecue department,
but that makes slicing it thinly easier.

The flavor is improved since I soaked it in water overnight to remove
some of the saltiness. I soaked it before the second roasting. I
have a chunk of it I'm planning on taking to Baton Rouge near the end
of the month when D, my sister and I do the first test of the Great
Remoulade Tour. The pastrami's not for consumption with remoulade, of
course. It's for my parents to taste.
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:01:21 -0600, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:54:31 +0200, (Victor Sack)
>wrote:
>
>>modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. This latest batch (from the Ruhlman/Polcyn book) was good,
>>> but too salty, and the cure didn't make it to the center of the
>>> brisket. There is a small, but significant, oval of uncured beef
>>> inside the slabs o' meat. You can see it because it's not pink like
>>> the cured parts.
>>
>>What is the texture like? Firm or fall-apart? Pastrami from Zabar's
>>had an almost fall-apart texture and this is often true of the Turkish
>>pastirma. Armenian basturma is always firm and often chewy, and has a
>>garlicky taste.
>>
>>Victor
>
>Now you two are getting me interested in making some pastrami. I just
>ordered curing salts from www.sausagemaker.com. I have the
>Charcuterie book, and while bacon is first on my list to make from
>that book, pastrami is sounding very good as well.
>That and pancetta, if I can find a decent place to cure it. NM is not
>exactly humid..and all I have is a fridge.
>
>Christine

I want to make prosciutto. I think I have a line on some pastured pig
meat. Now all I need is a place to keep it at 60F for 5-6 months. I'm
working on that.
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Christine Dabney > wrote:

> Now you two are getting me interested in making some pastrami. I just
> ordered curing salts from www.sausagemaker.com. I have the
> Charcuterie book, and while bacon is first on my list to make from
> that book, pastrami is sounding very good as well.

I've never liked pastrami much, but Armenian basturma can be supreme.

> That and pancetta, if I can find a decent place to cure it. NM is not
> exactly humid..and all I have is a fridge.

Mmm... pancetta. What I like even better is guanciale. Here is a
recipe by Mario Batali, from
<http://www.babbonyc.com/in-guanciale.html>. Also see a very good
illustrated blog entry at
<http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/how_to/the_art_of_the_cure.php>.

Victor

GUANCIALE
While most pork bacon products are taken from the belly of a pig,
Guanciale is made by drying the meat from a hog's jowls. Though the
resulting meat is leaner than traditional pork pieces, it has a
noticeably richer flavor. It is this richness, combined with a delicate
porkiness, that more than merits the meat's three-week drying period.
Making guanciale may require a little more planning than simply buying
good-quality bacon or pancetta, but its abundance of flavor
distinguishes guanciale from the rest, making every dish that much more
succulent. At Babbo, we use our homemade guanciale all over the place,
but nowhere is its fullness of flavor and porky richness more celebrated
than in our bucatini all'amatriciana.

Makes 2 pounds
1/2 cup sugar
1/2 cup kosher salt
10 to 15 whole black peppercorns
4 sprigs of fresh thyme leaves
2 pounds hog jowls

1. In a medium bowl, combine the sugar, salt, peppercorns and thyme.
Coat the hog jowls with the mixture, rubbing gently. Place the jowls in
a nonreactive casserole, cover, and refrigerate for 5 to 7 days.
2. Remove the jowls from the casserole and tie a piece of butcher's
twine around the middle of each. Hang the jowls in a dry cool place (it
should not be warmer than 60°F.) for at least 3 weeks. They should be
firm and dry, with a slight give. Slice and use like bacon or pancetta.

modom (palindrome guy) > wrote:

> Initially this batch was firm, but I wrapped it in foil and roasted it
> in a low oven for about 90 minutes to get it more tender. That wasn't
> part of the recipe, but I mostly used the recipe for the proportions
> of sugar, spices, salt and sodium nitrite in the cure. After that, I
> had at it with the smoker. I know about smoking meat pretty much. The
> recipe calls for roasting the pastrami in a water bath before carving.
> The texture of my pastrami now is more like somewhat underdone Texas
> barbecue beef. It's too firm to be right in the barbecue department,
> but that makes slicing it thinly easier.

Sounds interesting. Are you happy with the taste?

Victor

Victor Sack wrote:

> GUANCIALE
> While most pork bacon products are taken from the belly of a pig,
> Guanciale is made by drying the meat from a hog's jowls. Though the
> resulting meat is leaner than traditional pork pieces, it has a
> noticeably richer flavor.

My guanciale is certainly not leaner than my pancetta. It's much
fattier than any natural piece of pork, too. I always thought that that
was its reason for being, to flavor the oil I was sautéing the sofritto.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:04:25 -0500, "modom (palindrome guy)"
> wrote:


>The flavor is improved since I soaked it in water overnight to remove
>some of the saltiness. I soaked it before the second roasting. I
>have a chunk of it I'm planning on taking to Baton Rouge near the end
>of the month when D, my sister and I do the first test of the Great
>Remoulade Tour. The pastrami's not for consumption with remoulade, of
>course. It's for my parents to taste.
>--
>
>modom

you could make a *******ized reuben, with remoulade in place of
thousand island dressing.

your pal,
blake

Giusi > wrote:

> My guanciale is certainly not leaner than my pancetta. It's much
> fattier than any natural piece of pork, too. I always thought that that
> was its reason for being, to flavor the oil I was sautéing the sofritto.

You ought to see the many variants of Speck here in Germany. Some are
almost pure fat. Ukrainian/Russian salo is also pure fat. The
guanciale I get here (have to order it online), both the "normal" and
the spiced version, contains quite a bit of meat.

Victor

Victor Sack wrote:
> Giusi > wrote:
>
>> My guanciale is certainly not leaner than my pancetta. It's much
>> fattier than any natural piece of pork, too. I always thought that that
>> was its reason for being, to flavor the oil I was sautéing the sofritto.
>
> You ought to see the many variants of Speck here in Germany. Some are
> almost pure fat. Ukrainian/Russian salo is also pure fat. The
> guanciale I get here (have to order it online), both the "normal" and
> the spiced version, contains quite a bit of meat.
>
> Victor

http://www.flickr.com/photos/decobab...7594521784850/

That is a link to a photo of mine, which was hand cured by Alberta, who
teaches with me. They rear the best pork I have had since I was a kid,
but I admit that my mum had no idea of guanciale or pancetta.

The speck I buy here is very lean indeed.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Giusi > wrote:

> Victor Sack wrote:
> > Giusi > wrote:
> >
> > You ought to see the many variants of Speck here in Germany. Some are
> > almost pure fat. Ukrainian/Russian salo is also pure fat. The
> > guanciale I get here (have to order it online), both the "normal" and
> > the spiced version, contains quite a bit of meat.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/decobab...7594521784850/
>
> That is a link to a photo of mine, which was hand cured by Alberta, who
> teaches with me. They rear the best pork I have had since I was a kid,
> but I admit that my mum had no idea of guanciale or pancetta.

The guanciale I get here has a bit less fat and more meat, but it is
very good, all the same.

> The speck I buy here is very lean indeed.

That is because "speck" in Italy means a different thing, namely
basically just one variety produced more or less uniformly in South
Tyrol/Alto Adige. Look for "lardo" instead. Try lardo di Arnad or
lardo di Colonnata.

Victor

Giusi > wrote:

> Try and stop me! Once a year I have crostini with lardo di colonnata.
> I've had visiting friends go white at the idea when it arrives at table,
> and the name is truly unfortunate for English speakers. But what
> heavenly stuff!

If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
terms). Pick makes a very nice one. Here is a pictu
<http://www.pick.hu/en/download_image.php?path=../media/picture/termektar_cmyk/en_de/&filename=paprika_fat.jpg>.

Victor

On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:45:25 GMT, blake murphy >
wrote:

>you could make a *******ized reuben, with remoulade in place of
>thousand island dressing.
>
You are a genius. Remoulade reubens will rule.
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 23:48:14 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:


>Sounds interesting. Are you happy with the taste?
>
This time it isn't as good as the first time. I think that has to do
with changing smokers between batches. Also the first batch I used
grass-fed beef, but the second time it was just store-bought.
Generally, I'm happy with it, though.
--

modom

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Victor Sack wrote:
> Giusi > wrote:

>> The speck I buy here is very lean indeed.
>
> That is because "speck" in Italy means a different thing, namely
> basically just one variety produced more or less uniformly in South
> Tyrol/Alto Adige. Look for "lardo" instead. Try lardo di Arnad or
> lardo di Colonnata.
>
> Victor

Try and stop me! Once a year I have crostini with lardo di colonnata.
I've had visiting friends go white at the idea when it arrives at table,
and the name is truly unfortunate for English speakers. But what
heavenly stuff!

Speck here just seems to be a smoked version of prosciutto.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 18:22:22 -0500, "modom (palindrome guy)"
> wrote:

>On Wed, 18 Jul 2007 17:45:25 GMT, blake murphy >
>wrote:
>
>>you could make a *******ized reuben, with remoulade in place of
>>thousand island dressing.
>>
>You are a genius. Remoulade reubens will rule.
>--
>
>modom

i'd withhold the 'genius' until you taste it. it sounds plausible,
though.

your pal,
blake

Victor Sack > wrote:
>If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>terms).

Salt pork?

--Blair

Blair P. Houghton wrote:
> Victor Sack > wrote:
>> If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>> terms).
>
> Salt pork?
>
> --Blair
No way!

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Giusi" > wrote in message
.. .
> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>> Victor Sack > wrote:
>>> If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>> terms).
>>
>> Salt pork?
>>
>> --Blair
> No way!

When I saw this header, I thought someone was calling names.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 04:26:37 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

>Victor Sack > wrote:
>>If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>terms).
>
>Salt pork?

Lardo looks a bit smoother than salt pork (w/o the meat streak) and
lard, but comes from a different location in the animal.

A couple of years ago I trekked over to Mario Batali's Otto to try the
lardo pizza. It was alright but that's probably enough lardo for my
lifetime.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

"Curly Sue" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 04:26:37 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>>Victor Sack > wrote:
>>>If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>>terms).
>>
>>Salt pork?
>
> Lardo looks a bit smoother than salt pork (w/o the meat streak) and
> lard, but comes from a different location in the animal.
>
> A couple of years ago I trekked over to Mario Batali's Otto to try the
> lardo pizza. It was alright but that's probably enough lardo for my
> lifetime.
I agree . Pizza with lardo it's a bomb of calories! We should eat a simple
pizza Margherita. But we always eat the stranger pizzas they could invent:
with the impossible and unhealthy ingredients. I wonder how could be a lardo
pizza. I wonder if there is on it only lardo or also other things, such as:
mozzarella, fontina, or other cheese. In this case it would be good
(perhaps) but a little fat for my taste. But on the contrary, a pizza with
the only lard on it would be untasty IMO.

--
Kisses
Pandora

cybercat wrote:
>
> "Giusi" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>> Victor Sack > wrote:
>>>> If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>>> terms).
>>>
>>> Salt pork?
>>>
>>> --Blair
>> No way!
>
> When I saw this header, I thought someone was calling names.

Might also be what Starsky and Hutch got renamed in some foreign market
reruns.


--
Blinky RLU 297263
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html

Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

> Victor Sack > wrote:
> >If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
> >terms).
>
> Salt pork?

Different thing. Salt pork is made with pork belly. Lard is almost
pure fat from the back. The method of preparation and the taste
sensation is very different. Here is how lardo di Colonnata is made.
It is, in a sense, a by-product of extraction of marble from the
quarries of Carrara. Marble tubs/troughs are rubbed with garlic, then
layered with fat, each layer covered with sea salt, freshly-ground black
pepper, rosemary, salt, juniper berries, and other aromatic herbs. A
small slab of bacon is included in the top layer of salt, to help start
the pickling process. Traditionally, the tubs were topped with marble
slabs, but now wooden lids are often used instead. The pickling process
lasts a minimum of six months. The marble is porous, letting in the
air, and contains calcium carbonate which plays a part in the curing
process, creating a weak alkalic environment which prevents the
development of the soap-like off-taste on the surface of the fat.

Victor

Curly Sue wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2007 04:26:37 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>> Victor Sack > wrote:
>>> If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>> terms).
>> Salt pork?
>
> Lardo looks a bit smoother than salt pork (w/o the meat streak) and
> lard, but comes from a different location in the animal.
>
> A couple of years ago I trekked over to Mario Batali's Otto to try the
> lardo pizza. It was alright but that's probably enough lardo for my
> lifetime.
>
> Sue(tm)

I wouldn't actually cook it. I like to make basic grilled bread and lay
the thinnest slice over it. That's about as much heat as it ought to get.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Blinky the Shark wrote:
> cybercat wrote:
>> "Giusi" > wrote in message
>> .. .
>>> Blair P. Houghton wrote:
>>>> Victor Sack > wrote:
>>>>> If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>>>> terms).
>>>> Salt pork?
>>>>
>>>> --Blair
>>> No way!
>> When I saw this header, I thought someone was calling names.
>
> Might also be what Starsky and Hutch got renamed in some foreign market
> reruns.
>
>
You sneer, but they are still on in Italy. I say "Old TV shows never
die, they just get dubbed and play on in Italy."

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Victor Sack wrote:
> Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>> Victor Sack > wrote:
>>> If you can find it, also try Hungarian paprika speck (lardo, in Italian
>>> terms).
>> Salt pork?
>
> Different thing. Salt pork is made with pork belly. Lard is almost
> pure fat from the back. The method of preparation and the taste
> sensation is very different. Here is how lardo di Colonnata is made.
> It is, in a sense, a by-product of extraction of marble from the
> quarries of Carrara. Marble tubs/troughs are rubbed with garlic, then
> layered with fat, each layer covered with sea salt, freshly-ground black
> pepper, rosemary, salt, juniper berries, and other aromatic herbs. A
> small slab of bacon is included in the top layer of salt, to help start
> the pickling process. Traditionally, the tubs were topped with marble
> slabs, but now wooden lids are often used instead. The pickling process
> lasts a minimum of six months. The marble is porous, letting in the
> air, and contains calcium carbonate which plays a part in the curing
> process, creating a weak alkalic environment which prevents the
> development of the soap-like off-taste on the surface of the fat.
>
> Victor
Frankly, Victor, although accurate as usual, this doesn't make it sound
really delicious! Which it is.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Giusi > wrote:

> Frankly, Victor, although accurate as usual, this doesn't make it sound
> really delicious! Which it is.

First make 'em taste it, then tell 'em what it is!

Victor

In article >,
says...
> Giusi > wrote:
>
> > Frankly, Victor, although accurate as usual, this doesn't make it sound
> > really delicious! Which it is.
>
> First make 'em taste it, then tell 'em what it is!
>
> Victor
>

Mmmmm.. to me speck tastes like very mellowed prosciutto.