"Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
...
> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think the problem is that it rises too fast and I just need to use less
>> yeast and get my oven pre-heated before the dough rises too far. Does
>> anyone
>> have experience with this?
>
> Yes. In addition to the two adjustments you've listed (less yeast and
> solid oven heat), start with cold water. If you use instant yeast (the
> kind you mix with the flour rather than dissolving), you can start with
> icewater in the summer and 60 to 70 F water in the winter. This will help
> slow down the fermentation and give you a little more time for flavor to
> develop. However, without salt you are still going to have to keep an
> eagle eye on the dough so it doesn't get away from you.
>
> Work it on the young side. That is, if the fermentation gets to the point
> that the dough collapses when you slap it, you've waited too long and
> you're going to have awful bread. Instead, let it start to rise and get
> soft, but don't let it go so far. Remember, the dough is ready when it's
> ready, not when the clock says it's ready.
>
>
Hi,

Today, I tried less yeast, 1/2 tsp disolved in room temperature water, first
rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less yeast
makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the oven before it
rose fully, it still collapsed. The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I
put the loaf in to rise, and I put it in the oven (400 degrees) when the top
of the loaf just rose above the edge of the pan. Should I try more
flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg whites help? Less
oil? Any other suggestions?

I'm measuring the whole wheat flour by stirring it in the bag and then
sprinkling it into the measuring cup to get ~4 oz by weight per cup. This is
how I have read one should measure flour for white bread, is it the same for
whole wheat flour?

Would the fact that I am not adding sweetener (sugar/honey) as the original
recipe calls for be part of the problem?


Thanks

engv9q2ghqa wrote:
> "Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
> ...
>> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>>
>>> I think the problem is that it rises too fast and I just need to use less
>>> yeast and get my oven pre-heated before the dough rises too far. Does
>>> anyone
>>> have experience with this?
>> Yes. In addition to the two adjustments you've listed (less yeast and
>> solid oven heat), start with cold water. If you use instant yeast (the
>> kind you mix with the flour rather than dissolving), you can start with
>> icewater in the summer and 60 to 70 F water in the winter. This will help
>> slow down the fermentation and give you a little more time for flavor to
>> develop. However, without salt you are still going to have to keep an
>> eagle eye on the dough so it doesn't get away from you.
>>
>> Work it on the young side. That is, if the fermentation gets to the point
>> that the dough collapses when you slap it, you've waited too long and
>> you're going to have awful bread. Instead, let it start to rise and get
>> soft, but don't let it go so far. Remember, the dough is ready when it's
>> ready, not when the clock says it's ready.
>>
>>
> Hi,
>
> Today, I tried less yeast, 1/2 tsp disolved in room temperature water,

Is it winter where you are?

> first
> rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less yeast
> makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the oven before it
> rose fully, it still collapsed.

What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough is
too underdeveloped to support itself.


> The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I
> put the loaf in to rise, and I put it in the oven (400 degrees) when the top
> of the loaf just rose above the edge of the pan.

What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or
just go by height?


> Should I try more
> flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg whites help? Less
> oil? Any other suggestions?

Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.

>
> I'm measuring the whole wheat flour by stirring it in the bag and then
> sprinkling it into the measuring cup to get ~4 oz by weight per cup. This is
> how I have read one should measure flour for white bread, is it the same for
> whole wheat flour?

Yes, although it would be preferable to use a scale and weigh your
ingredients.

> Would the fact that I am not adding sweetener (sugar/honey) as the original
> recipe calls for be part of the problem?

Not significantly.

Dick Margulis > wrote in
:

> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>> "Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think the problem is that it rises too fast and I just need to
>>>> use less yeast and get my oven pre-heated before the dough rises
>>>> too far. Does anyone
>>>> have experience with this?
>>> Yes. In addition to the two adjustments you've listed (less yeast
>>> and solid oven heat), start with cold water. If you use instant
>>> yeast (the kind you mix with the flour rather than dissolving), you
>>> can start with icewater in the summer and 60 to 70 F water in the
>>> winter. This will help slow down the fermentation and give you a
>>> little more time for flavor to develop. However, without salt you
>>> are still going to have to keep an eagle eye on the dough so it
>>> doesn't get away from you.
>>>
>>> Work it on the young side. That is, if the fermentation gets to the
>>> point that the dough collapses when you slap it, you've waited too
>>> long and you're going to have awful bread. Instead, let it start to
>>> rise and get soft, but don't let it go so far. Remember, the dough
>>> is ready when it's ready, not when the clock says it's ready.
>>>
>>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Today, I tried less yeast, 1/2 tsp disolved in room temperature
>> water,
>
> Is it winter where you are?
>
>> first
>> rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less
>> yeast makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the
>> oven before it rose fully, it still collapsed.

************************************************** ******
Dick,

Could this dough have risen too long? The salt would have extended
rise, but he doesn't have any salt. I frequently let my doughs go 45
minutes with nornal salt and get good rise, oven spring, etc. I also
don't go much over 2 hours for a normal bread in fermentation.

It strikes me that the dough could be exhausted. A first rise of 2 1/2
hours follored by a one hour final rise could be enough to kill the
dough, espeically with no salt.

Barry

************************************************** ******
>
> What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
> machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough
> is too underdeveloped to support itself.
>
>
>> The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I
>> put the loaf in to rise, and I put it in the oven (400 degrees) when
>> the top of the loaf just rose above the edge of the pan.
>
> What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or
> just go by height?
>
>
>> Should I try more
>> flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg whites help?
>> Less oil? Any other suggestions?
>
> Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.
>
>>
>> I'm measuring the whole wheat flour by stirring it in the bag and
>> then sprinkling it into the measuring cup to get ~4 oz by weight per
>> cup. This is how I have read one should measure flour for white
>> bread, is it the same for whole wheat flour?
>
> Yes, although it would be preferable to use a scale and weigh your
> ingredients.
>
>> Would the fact that I am not adding sweetener (sugar/honey) as the
>> original recipe calls for be part of the problem?
>
> Not significantly.
>

Barry Harmon wrote:

>
> ************************************************** ******
> Dick,
>
> Could this dough have risen too long? The salt would have extended
> rise, but he doesn't have any salt. I frequently let my doughs go 45
> minutes with nornal salt and get good rise, oven spring, etc. I also
> don't go much over 2 hours for a normal bread in fermentation.
>
> It strikes me that the dough could be exhausted. A first rise of 2 1/2
> hours follored by a one hour final rise could be enough to kill the
> dough, espeically with no salt.
>
> Barry
>
> ************************************************** ******

Barry,

Of course it's exhausted. What I'm trying to get at is the reason. How
is he determining the length of the fermentation? That is, is he going
by touch or by sight? I've given some specific advice and asked some
specific questions, but so far I haven't seen answers to those
questions. These doughs normally come very quickly, but if he's not
kneading it enough in the first place and he's judging the fermentation
visually instead of by touch, we're a long way from solving his problem.

Feel free to jump in anytime, though, especially if you've got a page
with pictures that will help. (Nice job you're doing on the site, by the
way; it has really come a long way.)

Dick

"Barry Harmon" > wrote in message
6.158...
> Dick Margulis > wrote in
> :
>
>> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>> "Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
>>> ...
> ************************************************** ******
> Dick,
>
> Could this dough have risen too long? The salt would have extended
> rise, but he doesn't have any salt. I frequently let my doughs go 45
> minutes with nornal salt and get good rise, oven spring, etc. I also
> don't go much over 2 hours for a normal bread in fermentation.
>
> It strikes me that the dough could be exhausted. A first rise of 2 1/2
> hours follored by a one hour final rise could be enough to kill the
> dough, espeically with no salt.
>
> Barry
>

What is exhausted dough? Does exhaustion have to do with the gluten or the
yeast? The dough was rising well in the pan. I cut down on the amount of
yeast in the recipe because it was going very fast without salt.


Thanks

engv9q2ghqa wrote:
> "Barry Harmon" > wrote in message
> 6.158...
>> Dick Margulis > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>>> "Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>> ************************************************** ******
>> Dick,
>>
>> Could this dough have risen too long? The salt would have extended
>> rise, but he doesn't have any salt. I frequently let my doughs go 45
>> minutes with nornal salt and get good rise, oven spring, etc. I also
>> don't go much over 2 hours for a normal bread in fermentation.
>>
>> It strikes me that the dough could be exhausted. A first rise of 2 1/2
>> hours follored by a one hour final rise could be enough to kill the
>> dough, espeically with no salt.
>>
>> Barry
>>
>
> What is exhausted dough? Does exhaustion have to do with the gluten or the
> yeast? The dough was rising well in the pan. I cut down on the amount of
> yeast in the recipe because it was going very fast without salt.
>
>
> Thanks
>
>

Exhaustion has to do with fermentation products. The yeast dies in its
own waste, essentially. Salt tightens gluten and helps give structure to
the dough. Without it, you have weaker gluten at the same time you have
faster yeast metabolism. That's what I meant when I said you're working
against nature.

When I worked in a commercial bakery, we made a salt-free whole wheat
bread _occasionally_ (it was a product that went in the freezer and was
only made again when there was none left--we couldn't sell it fast
enough to offer it as fresh baked goods). It was always problematic--it
tended to be poorly colored (pale gray rather than warm brown), poorly
textured (uneven crumb, more open than we wanted it), and poorly shaped
(rough top, swaybacked, and mushroomed over the pan walls). Sometimes a
batch would collapse and we'd throw it out. We were not happy bakers
when we saw salt-free bread on the order sheet. We used all the tricks
I'm trying to tell you about, but it was still an iffy proposition every
time.

"Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
...
> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>> "Dick Margulis" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>>>>
......
>>>
>>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Today, I tried less yeast, 1/2 tsp disolved in room temperature water,
>
> Is it winter where you are?

It's summer. The amount of yeast is less than 1/4 of that called for in the
recipe (2 1/4 tsp) I was trying to slow down the yeast because it was going
too fast without salt. Yesterday I used 1 tsp disolved in 110 degree water
and it still went very fast.

>
>> first rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less
>> yeast makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the oven
>> before it rose fully, it still collapsed.
>
> What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
> machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough is
> too underdeveloped to support itself.


I kneaded 8 minutes by hand, as the original recipe called for, using the
fold push turn method.
I don't know how to describe the consistency of the dough - it was dough not
batter, it was pliable after resting and stiffer after kneading. As I
kneaded it, when I felt it was a bit sticky I would spread some flour on the
board or the dough.

How should I be assessing the consistency of 100% whole wheat dough? What
should I be looking for?
>
>
>> The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I put the loaf in to rise, and I
>> put it in the oven (400 degrees) when the top of the loaf just rose above
>> the edge of the pan.
>
> What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or just
> go by height?


For the first rise I used the dimple test, for the second rise I went by
height.


>
>
>> Should I try more flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg
>> whites help? Less oil? Any other suggestions?
>
> Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.

I'm trying to modify a recipe that includes sugar and salt to make a bread
without sugar and salt. From my perspective, I don't have a formula so I
think formula is worth giving some importance to.

If there are any existing recipies that use 100% whole wheat flour and no
sugar or salt to make a loaf of bread I'd love to know about them.

>
>>
>> I'm measuring the whole wheat flour by stirring it in the bag and then
>> sprinkling it into the measuring cup to get ~4 oz by weight per cup. This
>> is how I have read one should measure flour for white bread, is it the
>> same for whole wheat flour?
>
> Yes, although it would be preferable to use a scale and weigh your
> ingredients.

My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces. (~4.3 oz per cup) I don't
know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard weights to
check it with.


Thanks

engv9q2ghqa wrote:
>
> It's summer. The amount of yeast is less than 1/4 of that called for in the
> recipe (2 1/4 tsp) I was trying to slow down the yeast because it was going
> too fast without salt. Yesterday I used 1 tsp disolved in 110 degree water
> and it still went very fast.

Yeah, but what was the temp of the dough water? Recall that I suggested
you use COLD water, not room temp.

If you are using "active dry" yeast, you should mix it with a small
amount of 110 F water before starting to add flour, etc. But the larger
volume of water should be cold. If you are using "instant" yeast, you
can add the yeast, dry, to the flour and skip the 110 F water altogether.


>
>>> first rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less
>>> yeast makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the oven
>>> before it rose fully, it still collapsed.
>> What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
>> machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough is
>> too underdeveloped to support itself.
>
>
> I kneaded 8 minutes by hand, as the original recipe called for, using the
> fold push turn method.
> I don't know how to describe the consistency of the dough - it was dough not
> batter, it was pliable after resting and stiffer after kneading. As I
> kneaded it, when I felt it was a bit sticky I would spread some flour on the
> board or the dough.

It's okay, in general, for dough to be a little tacky/sticky. With hand
kneading, most people tend to add too much flour, which creates problems.


>
> How should I be assessing the consistency of 100% whole wheat dough? What
> should I be looking for?

Because of the bran, whole wheat flour absorbs a lot more water, over a
longer period, than white flour. So a dough that starts out feeling
comfortably pliable can end up too dry. That doesn't seem to be your
problem, though.

The dough should feel sort of springy, but it won't reach the level of
elasticity that a white dough can achieve. The main thing you can
actually measure is temperature. What is the temperature of the dough
when you're done kneading? (With hand kneading, this will be very close
to the same temperature it was when you started kneading, of course.)
For a short-cycle straight dough, salt-free, you want the dough to be
very close to 78 F--certainly not above 80 F. If it's a lot cooler, you
can get a longer fermentation (better flavor), but you have to watch it
like a hawk.


>>
>>> The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I put the loaf in to rise, and I
>>> put it in the oven (400 degrees) when the top of the loaf just rose above
>>> the edge of the pan.

>> What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or just
>> go by height?
>
>
> For the first rise I used the dimple test, for the second rise I went by
> height.
>

On the fermentation (first rise), did you take it on the young side as I
suggested or did you let it go to full fermentation?

Again, what was the weight of the dough in the pan?

Do you have smaller pans?

And, again, use the dimple test for the loaf, as suggested earlier, not
height in the pan.

The problem is that a salt-free dough is inherently weak and it ages
rapidly. So if you try for full height, it's guaranteed to collapse.


>
>>
>>> Should I try more flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg
>>> whites help? Less oil? Any other suggestions?
>> Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.
>
> I'm trying to modify a recipe that includes sugar and salt to make a bread
> without sugar and salt. From my perspective, I don't have a formula so I
> think formula is worth giving some importance to.
>
> If there are any existing recipies that use 100% whole wheat flour and no
> sugar or salt to make a loaf of bread I'd love to know about them.

I tend to like a sweeter whole wheat bread, so I don't have a formula
you would like. That's not to say others won't.

>
> My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces. (~4.3 oz per cup) I don't
> know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard weights to
> check it with.

That means you're doing an excellent job of fluffing the flour. For
whole wheat flour, that's a good weight.

Dick,

Carol Field has a recipe for Pane Toscano, Tuscan Saltless Bread, in her
book, "The Italian Baker." I've always had great success with her book
and her recipes work well for me.

Maybe he should try that recipe instead of tyring to modify an existing
recipe, at least for the first effort.

The recipe calls for 205 grams white flour, and 475 grams of whole
wheat, which I would view as whole wheat bread flour. (Whole Foods to
the rescue!) It uses a starter (poolish, 2/3 cup water to 175 grams
flour) and continues into the second day. First rise (fermentation) 1
hour, second rise 45 minutes to 75 minutes. AND, she posts it in
weights, too.

I'd be glad to post the recipe if it'll help. If you think it will be a
help, I'll make the bread and shoot some pictures.

As for the site, it had no place to go but up! <g> But thanks for the
compliment. You were a great help and inspiration, even if I did cuss
you under my breath while I was struggling with the first iteration of
CSS! <VBG>

I'm straightening out a lot of things, getting the blog going, and just
generally making things consistent among and between the sections. I've
got an 85% bread that I just posted, but I don't know how it will be
recieved. It's for a lot of dough. I had a lot of fun making it, and
plan to use it as an example of how to scale a recipe up and down, but I
don't know how many people will take one look at it and say "EEEEK!
It's alive! It's Attacking The Counter! Run Billy Bob!" I'm hoping The
King Of Glop will take a look at it and have a comment or two, both
because I value his knowledge and because his posts are good reading.

This is the first creative bread I've made in a while -- just too
difficult to be creative with bread in the summer. Pita's just about
enough.

Barry

> My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces. (~4.3 oz per cup) I don't
> know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard weights to
> check it with.
>
That seems a little light to me. I use 4.5 oz. for white flour per cup.
Others use a little more than that.
Since you think you have no accurate scale, why don't you just go for a
pound of flour, is that possible? And then go from there.
Dee Dee

"Dee Dee" > wrote in
:

>> My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces. (~4.3 oz per cup) I
>> don't know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard
>> weights to check it with.
>>
> That seems a little light to me. I use 4.5 oz. for white flour per
> cup. Others use a little more than that.
> Since you think you have no accurate scale, why don't you just go for
> a pound of flour, is that possible? And then go from there.
> Dee Dee
>
>
>
>

Well, one way to check the scale is to take a package of whatever,
something that weighs about 2 pounds. Weigh that. Then remove the item
from the package and weigh the packaging. Subtract the packaging weight
from the total weight. This should equal the stated net weight on the
package.

This won't be accurate to the grain, but it'll be close enough for bread
work.

Oh, and don't use liquid and expect this to work as written above. A quart
of water weighs about 33 3/8 ounces. Now that you know that little gem of
a figure, you could use a quart of soda, water, beer, vodka, etc. (I'd be
careful about milk, I don't know what milk weighs, what with the solids in
there and all.)

Barry

"engv9q2ghqa" > wrote in message
om...
>
> >
> My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces. (~4.3 oz per cup) I don't
> know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard weights to
> check it with.
>
I was faced with a similar problem when I found out that my digital scales
were not weighing accurately - it proved to be an uneven surface on part of
the counter top.
Sets of weights were expensive so I googled the Canadian Mint and found that
the Canadian dollar coin (the Looney) weighs 7 grams. Therefore, I
periodically check mine with pocket change.
Graham