Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.

In fact it's a phonetic word, evidently imported into English and without
traditional consistent spelling (data below), a situation not uncommon.
(Another example that arose on newsgroups is "recipe" and "receipt,"
pronounced differently today in NA English although "receipt" appears
interchangeably with "recipe" in older cookbooks. A scholar of 18th-century
English advises that they were the same word originally, just different
spellings.) Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
please, and they do.

As shown below, popular US cookbooks for 200 years normally spelled it
catsup. I seem to remember such spelling as common on tomato-catsup bottles
through about the 1960s, ketchup gradually displacing it (more phonetic, or
a British Invasion? Compare Mrs Beeton below). At the same time, catsups as
a wide class of savory condiments, from various vegetables, fruits, or
seafoods, and normally unsweetened, became eclipsed by commercial tomato
catsup, which also got sweeter. The Hesses in _The Taste of America_
(1977), who by the way spell it ketchup, note that it was widely homemade,
in various flavors, until recent times. They cite OED for the Amoy Chinese
word kétsiap, and say the Malay word kechap may also come from that source.
The Hesses wryly add that a modern US firm developed a bottled ketchup with
natural tomato flavor but it didn't sell, until the product was "slightly
scorched and a metallic component added to give it the taste of 'real'
ketchup." (A comment fairly representative of their book.)

What I found in popular, mostly US, published cookbooks:


Mary Randolph,* 1824 (edition of 1860): "Catsup"

Eliza Leslie, 1837 (edition 1851): "Catchup" (including "Tomata"
tchup.) -- A chapter with eight recipes. Three include wine, one beer.

Mrs Beeton (British, edition 1861): "Ketchup"

Fannie Farmer, 1927: "Catsup"

Morrison Wood (_With A Jug of Wine_), 1949: "Catsup"

Joy of Cooking, 1964: "Catsup"

Fannie Farmer, 1965: "Catsup" (five recipes)


Respectfully submitted -- Max

--
* "Mrs. Randolph freely, perhaps extravagantly, used wines and spirits in
her cooking." -- Janice Longone, The Wine and Food Library, 1993.
Introduction to the Dover reprint of the Mary Randolph book, one of the two
great "best-selling" US cookbooks of 19th century. The other was Eliza
Leslie's.

Max Hauser wrote:
> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.

I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
good enough. ;-D


--
Steve

Steve wrote on Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:10:52 -0400:

SC> Max Hauser wrote:
??>> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of
??>> an old condiment.

SC> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
SC> good enough. ;-D

I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me.
"Catchup", I don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it
supposed to be derived from a Chinese condiment transcribed as
"catsiap". There are more ketchups than tomato: mushroom ketchup
is available in England but I can't say that I like it. By the
way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but it might be an
interesting survey to find the brands that people like. I have
to admit that my favorite is Heinz or possibly DelMonte which
tastes almost identical as, believe it or not, so do some
grocery chain house brands.. Hunt's isn't bad but doesn't taste
quite the same to me.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Ketchup and its ironies have venerable history on this newsgroup. Here's an
example from 23 years ago (before net.cooks changed its name to
rec.food.cooking). As I mentioned in the original posting, for most of
ketchup's history in the US, it existed in many kinds besides tomato, was
often homemade, and had no added sugar.


In >, 29 January 1984,
rabbit!ark (Andrew Koenig, a familiar name on newsgroups in the 1980s)
wrote:

> Newsgroups: net.cooks,net.misc
>
> Subject: natural imitation ketchup (serious quote)
>
> Excerpt from 1984 Consumer Reports buying guide:
>
>
>"Today, sugar is a mandatory ingredient for a product called ketchup,
>catsup, or catchup, according to current Food and Drug Administration
>Standard of Identity. Tomatoes, vinegar, spices or flavoring (or both),
>onions or garlic (or both), and salt are also included in the standard.
>Salt can be omitted as long as the container is clearly labeled 'no salt
>added.' Without sugar, however, the product has to be called 'imitation'
>ketchup which leads some makers into interesting ironies.
>
>"For some reason, the FDA specifies sucrose, dextrose, glucose syrup, or
>corn syrup as the only appropriate sugars for ketchup. But certain ketchup
>makers choose instead to use honey or corn sweeteners, which some regard as
>more 'natural' sugars. Thus it is that, among the 18 brands we tested, two
>are strangely and wonderfully labeled 'natural imitation ketchup.' "
>
>
>Welcome to 1984.

"James Silverton" > wrote in message
news:se0Ai.4950$oh1.3365@trnddc04...
> Steve wrote on Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:10:52 -0400:
>
> SC> Max Hauser wrote:
> ??>> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of
> ??>> an old condiment.
>
> SC> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
> SC> good enough. ;-D
>
> I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me. "Catchup", I
> don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it supposed to be derived from a
> Chinese condiment transcribed as "catsiap". There are more ketchups than
> tomato: mushroom ketchup is available in England but I can't say that I
> like it. By the way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but it might
> be an interesting survey to find the brands that people like. I have to
> admit that my favorite is Heinz or possibly DelMonte which tastes almost
> identical as, believe it or not, so do some grocery chain house brands..
> Hunt's isn't bad but doesn't taste quite the same to me.
> James Silverton


I'd love to try some mushroom ketchup some day. We like the curry flavored
tomato catsup we were frequently served in Germany. I have a friend that
swears by a brand she buys home in Kansas City. Blairs, or Bishops, or
something. I detected a widgeon (scientific term) more cinnamon and sugar in
that one. Not bad.
Edrena

Max Hauser wrote:
> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
>
> In fact it's a phonetic word, evidently imported into English and without
> traditional consistent spelling (data below), a situation not uncommon.
> (Another example that arose on newsgroups is "recipe" and "receipt,"
> pronounced differently today in NA English although "receipt" appears
> interchangeably with "recipe" in older cookbooks. A scholar of 18th-century
> English advises that they were the same word originally, just different
> spellings.) Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
> please, and they do.

Some where i have a walnut catsup recipe, in a section of a book with
several variations, here's the entry from my dictionary

catsup |ˈke ch əp; ˈka ch əp; ˈkatsəp| noun variant spelling of ketchup
.. ketchup |ˈke ch əp| (also catsup pronounce. same or |ˈka ch əp;
ˈkatsəp|) noun a spicy sauce made chiefly from tomatoes and vinegar,
used as a condiment. ORIGIN late 17th cent.: perhaps from Chinese (
Cantonese dialect) k'Ä“ chap "tomato juice.
--
JL



>
> As shown below, popular US cookbooks for 200 years normally spelled it
> catsup. I seem to remember such spelling as common on tomato-catsup bottles
> through about the 1960s, ketchup gradually displacing it (more phonetic, or
> a British Invasion? Compare Mrs Beeton below). At the same time, catsups as
> a wide class of savory condiments, from various vegetables, fruits, or
> seafoods, and normally unsweetened, became eclipsed by commercial tomato
> catsup, which also got sweeter. The Hesses in _The Taste of America_
> (1977), who by the way spell it ketchup, note that it was widely homemade,
> in various flavors, until recent times. They cite OED for the Amoy Chinese
> word kétsiap, and say the Malay word kechap may also come from that source.
> The Hesses wryly add that a modern US firm developed a bottled ketchup with
> natural tomato flavor but it didn't sell, until the product was "slightly
> scorched and a metallic component added to give it the taste of 'real'
> ketchup." (A comment fairly representative of their book.)
>
> What I found in popular, mostly US, published cookbooks:
>
>
> Mary Randolph,* 1824 (edition of 1860): "Catsup"
>
> Eliza Leslie, 1837 (edition 1851): "Catchup" (including "Tomata"
> tchup.) -- A chapter with eight recipes. Three include wine, one beer.
>
> Mrs Beeton (British, edition 1861): "Ketchup"
>
> Fannie Farmer, 1927: "Catsup"
>
> Morrison Wood (_With A Jug of Wine_), 1949: "Catsup"
>
> Joy of Cooking, 1964: "Catsup"
>
> Fannie Farmer, 1965: "Catsup" (five recipes)
>
>
> Respectfully submitted -- Max
>

In article >,
Steve Calvin > wrote:

> Max Hauser wrote:
> > Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
>
> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
> good enough. ;-D

Yeah.

I spell it alternately depending on my mood.
Either Catsup or Ketchup.

My spell checker passes both of them!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Aug 25, 3:24 pm, "James Silverton" >
wrote:
> Steve wrote on Sat, 25 Aug 2007 16:10:52 -0400:
>
> SC> Max Hauser wrote:
> ??>> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of
> ??>> an old condiment.
>
> SC> I figure as long as it gets the thought across it's spelled
> SC> good enough. ;-D
>
> I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me.
> "Catchup", I don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it
> supposed to be derived from a Chinese condiment transcribed as
> "catsiap". There are more ketchups than tomato: mushroom ketchup
> is available in England but I can't say that I like it. By the
> way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but it might be an
> interesting survey to find the brands that people like. I have
> to admit that my favorite is Heinz or possibly DelMonte which
> tastes almost identical as, believe it or not, so do some
> grocery chain house brands.. Hunt's isn't bad but doesn't taste
> quite the same to me.

DelMonte does not taste like Heinz, though some store brands do.
Schnuck's is a perfect, or nearly perfect knock off.

Trout Fishing in America had a chapter titled, "Another Method of
Making Walnut Catsup."

Brautigan rocks.
>
> James Silverton
> Potomac, Maryland
>
--Bryan

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
> Max Hauser wrote:
> > Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
> > spellings.) *Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
> > please, and they do.
>
> Some where i have *a walnut catsup recipe,

Discussing woids... *somewhere* is ALWAYS one word... and it's aye,
"i" is not a word.

And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
final authority in ketchupdom.

Sheldon Red

On Aug 25, 7:34 pm, Bobo Bonobo® > wrote::10:52
> DelMonte does not taste like Heinz

I'll attest to that - a major debate broke out one evening when our
club had a fish fry and someone stormed the kitchen and yelled,
"What? No Heinz?" The poor gal who thoughtlessly picked up DelMonte
couldn't believe her ears. After all, it's was an eight dollar fish
fry, guys....

I once tried making my own - but the trouble wasn't worth it. Taste
was not to my liking and I decided other kitchen frugalities were
available.

I have vowed, tho, never to fall again for that big bargain size
bottle of Heinz for a buck and a half at Big Lots - it'll take me a
year to use it up, it won't even fit on the fridge door, and my frugal
bone won't let me toss it. When it gets down to about half the
amount, I may make a transfer to a Mason jar.

Hmm.. maybe jars of homemade barbecue sauce as Xmas gifts?

val

writes:
>Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
>> Max Hauser wrote:
>> > Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
>> > spellings.) Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
>> > please, and they do.
>>
>> Some where i have a walnut catsup recipe,
>
>Discussing woids... *somewhere* is ALWAYS one word... and it's aye,
>"i" is not a word.
>
>And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
>spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
>final authority in ketchupdom.
>
>Sheldon Red

Foitha discussion of woids ...shouldn't that be "final authority in
ketchupdumb"? :-D

blAndy

Andy wrote:
> Sheldon writes:
>
> >And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
> >spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
> >final authority in ketchupdom.
>
> shouldn't that be "final authority in ketchupdumb"? :-D


Huh... dumb... compared with your sorry cornholed ass Stan is Albert
Einstein.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cornhole

Sheldon

"val189" > wrote in message
ups.com...
..

I have vowed, tho, never to fall again for that big bargain size
bottle of Heinz for a buck and a half at Big Lots - it'll take me a
year to use it up, it won't even fit on the fridge door, and my frugal
bone won't let me toss it. When it gets down to about half the
amount, I may make a transfer to a Mason jar.

Hmm.. maybe jars of homemade barbecue sauce as Xmas gifts?

val

At my house it's pointless to buy Heinz in any other size than the giant
one, and there's only one person in this house that eats ketchup and it's
not me.

Ms P

"James Silverton" > wrote in
news:se0Ai.4950$oh1.3365@trnddc04:

>> I use "ketchup" but "catsup" does not bother or throw me.
> "Catchup", I don't think I've ever come across. Isn't it
> supposed to be derived from a Chinese condiment transcribed
> as "catsiap". There are more ketchups than tomato: mushroom
> ketchup is available in England but I can't say that I like
> it. By the way, I don't know anyone who makes their own but
> it might be an interesting survey to find the brands that
> people like.

i make my own catsup. i invariably end up using regular
tomatoes rather than paste varieties & it takes, oh, 20+ hours
to cook down to proper consistancy. i finally put a note on my
recipe to *use paste tomatoes!*
the original American catsups were commonly Concord grape
based. tomato based catsups were unheard of until the late
1800s when it was discovered that tomatoes were not just
ornamental, but actually edible.
yellow tomatoes make a rather brownish color catsup, due to
the spices. red is more appetizing in appearance.


> I have to admit that my favorite is Heinz or
> possibly DelMonte which tastes almost identical as, believe
> it or not, so do some grocery chain house brands.. Hunt's
> isn't bad but doesn't taste quite the same to me.

i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
lee

In article >,
enigma > wrote:

> i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
> Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
> amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
> lee

I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.

There are lots of recipes on line. :-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Aug 26, 10:33�am, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
>
> *enigma > wrote:
> > i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
> > Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
> > amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
> > lee
>
> I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
> avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.

Why... you plan on drinking the stuff. Maybe you should consider what
you're plopping it on instead, tons of greasy fried crap. Tomatoes
naturally contain substantial sugar, but folks over indulge with
ketchup primarilly for the salt fix... you shouldn't be having any
ketchup... try switching to vinegar instead. Heinz produces a nice
selection of vinegars.

http://www.heinzvinegar.com

Sheldon

In article . com>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> On Aug 26, 10:33￈�am, Omelet <omp > wrote:
> > In article >,
> >
> > Â*enigma > wrote:
> > > i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
> > > Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
> > > amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
> > > lee
> >
> > I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
> > avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.
>
> Why... you plan on drinking the stuff. Maybe you should consider what
> you're plopping it on instead, tons of greasy fried crap. Tomatoes
> naturally contain substantial sugar, but folks over indulge with
> ketchup primarilly for the salt fix... you shouldn't be having any
> ketchup... try switching to vinegar instead. Heinz produces a nice
> selection of vinegars.
>
> http://www.heinzvinegar.com
>
> Sheldon

I use Catsup in things like Deviled egg recipes and tuna salads.

I happen to really like tomatoes.
And they are high in anti-oxidants.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

On Aug 26, 11:31�am, Omelet > wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
>
>
>
>
> *Sheldon > wrote:
> > On Aug 26, 10:33ï¿ am, Omelet <omp > wrote:
> > > In article >,
>
> > > *enigma > wrote:
> > > > i haven't seen DelMonte in ages! when we bought catsup, it was
> > > > Heinz... but we're trying to eliminate HFCS from our diets.
> > > > amazing how much bought food contains HFCS.
> > > > lee
>
> > > I've been considering making my own Catsup using canned tomato paste to
> > > avoid the sugar content of commercial brands.
>
> > Why... you plan on drinking the stuff. *Maybe you should consider what
> > you're plopping it on instead, tons of greasy fried crap. *Tomatoes
> > naturally contain substantial sugar, but folks over indulge with
> > ketchup primarilly for the salt fix... you shouldn't be having any
> > ketchup... try switching to vinegar instead. *Heinz produces a nice
> > selection of vinegars.
>
> >http://www.heinzvinegar.com
>
> I use Catsup in things like Deviled egg recipes and tuna salads.

I can't imagine you put enough ketchup in deviled eggs to notice if it
were omitted... I would be very suspicious of peach hued egg yolk
anyway... and ketchup in tuna salad... BLECH!

> I happen to really like tomatoes.
> And they are high in anti-oxidants.

Well then, just eat fresh tomatoes (duh), they gotta contain more of
whatever is good and nothing bad. I seriously doubt there is much
tomato benefit from eating ketchup, just a lotta Heinz hype... ketchup
is a condiment, not an entree, not even an appetizer... you need to
rearrange your priorities, seriously. I don't think there is much of
the nutrition people eat tomatoes for in cooked tomatoes.... the fiber
is negated, the Vitamin C is destroyed, and any antioxidants are
seriously degraded... all you got is caramelized sugar and some
salt... cooked to death tomato is essentially junk food.

Right now I have a glut of tomatoes, can't eat them fast enough...
breakfast this morning was a two quart bowl filled with diced fresh
tomatoes, fresh picked parsley, a half a minced onion, juice of one
lime, and lots of fresh ground black pepper... no added salt, no fat,
no chemicals... I was too lazy to go to the garden for a cucumber.
Probably for dinner, with a can of sardines in tomato sauce (man can't
live by fiber alone, gots to have some quality protein).

Sheldon

val189 wrote:
>
> On Aug 25, 7:34 pm, Bobo Bonobo® > wrote::10:52
> > DelMonte does not taste like Heinz
>
> I'll attest to that - a major debate broke out one evening when our
> club had a fish fry and someone stormed the kitchen and yelled,
> "What? No Heinz?" The poor gal who thoughtlessly picked up DelMonte
> couldn't believe her ears. After all, it's was an eight dollar fish
> fry, guys....
>
> I once tried making my own - but the trouble wasn't worth it. Taste
> was not to my liking and I decided other kitchen frugalities were
> available.
>
> I have vowed, tho, never to fall again for that big bargain size
> bottle of Heinz for a buck and a half at Big Lots - it'll take me a
> year to use it up, it won't even fit on the fridge door, and my frugal
> bone won't let me toss it. When it gets down to about half the
> amount, I may make a transfer to a Mason jar.
>
> Hmm.. maybe jars of homemade barbecue sauce as Xmas gifts?
>
> val

Put some in a smaller jar or bottle into the fridge and put the rest of
the large bottle in the freezer. Keeps for ages that way.

On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:07:14 -0700, "Max Hauser"
> wrote:

>Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.
>
>In fact it's a phonetic word, evidently imported into English and without
>traditional consistent spelling (data below), a situation not uncommon.
>(Another example that arose on newsgroups is "recipe" and "receipt,"
>pronounced differently today in NA English although "receipt" appears
>interchangeably with "recipe" in older cookbooks. A scholar of 18th-century
>English advises that they were the same word originally, just different
>spellings.) Lacking consistent spelling, people can spell ketchup as they
>please, and they do.
>
>As shown below, popular US cookbooks for 200 years normally spelled it
>catsup. I seem to remember such spelling as common on tomato-catsup bottles
>through about the 1960s, ketchup gradually displacing it (more phonetic, or
>a British Invasion? Compare Mrs Beeton below). At the same time, catsups as
>a wide class of savory condiments, from various vegetables, fruits, or
>seafoods, and normally unsweetened, became eclipsed by commercial tomato
>catsup, which also got sweeter. The Hesses in _The Taste of America_
>(1977), who by the way spell it ketchup, note that it was widely homemade,
>in various flavors, until recent times. They cite OED for the Amoy Chinese
>word kétsiap, and say the Malay word kechap may also come from that source.
>The Hesses wryly add that a modern US firm developed a bottled ketchup with
>natural tomato flavor but it didn't sell, until the product was "slightly
>scorched and a metallic component added to give it the taste of 'real'
>ketchup." (A comment fairly representative of their book.)
>
>What I found in popular, mostly US, published cookbooks:
>
>
>Mary Randolph,* 1824 (edition of 1860): "Catsup"
>
>Eliza Leslie, 1837 (edition 1851): "Catchup" (including "Tomata"
>tchup.) -- A chapter with eight recipes. Three include wine, one beer.
>
>Mrs Beeton (British, edition 1861): "Ketchup"
>
>Fannie Farmer, 1927: "Catsup"
>
>Morrison Wood (_With A Jug of Wine_), 1949: "Catsup"
>
>Joy of Cooking, 1964: "Catsup"
>
>Fannie Farmer, 1965: "Catsup" (five recipes)
>
>
>Respectfully submitted -- Max

There is an Indonesian thick, sweet soy-based sauce called "Ketjap
Manis", no doubt another variation on this theme :-)

CJ

In article . com>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> >
> > I use Catsup in things like Deviled egg recipes and tuna salads.
>
> I can't imagine you put enough ketchup in deviled eggs to notice if it
> were omitted... I would be very suspicious of peach hued egg yolk
> anyway... and ketchup in tuna salad... BLECH!

Catsup was the original fish sauce.
Think Shrimp cocktail. It contains tomato.

Catsup goes VERY well with fish if you are in the mood for it.
I don't always use it in Tuna salad tho'. I will however often use fresh
minced tomato.

>
> > I happen to really like tomatoes.
> > And they are high in anti-oxidants.
>
> Well then, just eat fresh tomatoes (duh), they gotta contain more of
> whatever is good and nothing bad.

Look it up. Tomato paste is MUCH higher in Lycopenes than fresh tomato.

> I seriously doubt there is much
> tomato benefit from eating ketchup, just a lotta Heinz hype...

Commercial, perhaps.
Home made?

Think about it.


> ketchup
> is a condiment, not an entree, not even an appetizer... you need to
> rearrange your priorities, seriously. I don't think there is much of
> the nutrition people eat tomatoes for in cooked tomatoes.... the fiber
> is negated, the Vitamin C is destroyed, and any antioxidants are
> seriously degraded... all you got is caramelized sugar and some
> salt... cooked to death tomato is essentially junk food.

Not true.
Google for Lycopene content.
It's good for the eyes and that is what I am after.

>
> Right now I have a glut of tomatoes, can't eat them fast enough...

Gods.

I'd pay the postage if I thought they'd arrive fresh. :-(
I did not grow this year.

I just paid $2.69 per lb. for some local grown at the health food store
for 4 of them as I was craving REAL tomatoes so!

> breakfast this morning was a two quart bowl filled with diced fresh
> tomatoes, fresh picked parsley, a half a minced onion, juice of one
> lime, and lots of fresh ground black pepper... no added salt, no fat,
> no chemicals... I was too lazy to go to the garden for a cucumber.
> Probably for dinner, with a can of sardines in tomato sauce (man can't
> live by fiber alone, gots to have some quality protein).
>
> Sheldon

<sigh>

Will you marry me?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"Abe" in :
....
>>there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup
> is spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the
>>first and final authority in ketchupdom.
>>
>>Sheldon Red
> Quite right. Catsup is the generic name for the condiment, which can be
> tomato based or not. Ketchup is the Heinz brand name for a particular
> tomato based variant of catsup. Simple.
>
> Catchup is a non-starter.

You folks, if serious, might like to take a look at the sources I cited.
"Ketchup" was a familiar spelling by 1861 when Mrs Beeton (in what is
basically the national cookbook of England, from an era when the cooking
there was diverse and had a higher international reputation than later) gave
four recipes: "Mushroom ketchup," "Oyster ketchup," and "Walnut ketchup"
(two recipes). I'm reading this directly from the book

"Catchup" was the spelling of Eliza Leslie (in what's widely considered the
main US cookbook of the 19th century -- some experts consider it the best US
cookbook ever). I recommend the book; there's an inexpensive Dover reprint
under ISBN 0486406148, and it's also transcribed online now. That book has
recipes for "Lobster catchup," "Anchovy catchup," "Oyster catchup," "Walnut
catchup," "Mushroom catchup," "Tomata catchup," "Lemon catchup," and "Sea
catchup." The last is made from anchovies, shallots, mace, cloves, pepper,
ginger, mushrooms, and beer, cooked down and pureed. Leslie indicated that
this recipe "keeps well at sea, and may be carried into any part of the
world. A spoonful of it mixed in melted butter will make a fine fish
sauce."

There we see some of the nature and use of traditional ketchup recipes.

Despite ironic definitions of the product itself, USFDA writing quoted in my
earlier follow-up acknowledged ambiguous spelling, with catsup, catchup, and
ketchup interchangeable.

"enigma" in :>

[After describing making tomato catsup regularly]

> the original American catsups were commonly Concord grape based.

Do you have a source or reference for the originals being grape based? I'm
interested. As I've been posting here, by the early 1800s a variety of
catsup recipes were in use. Both Eliza Leslie and Mary Randolph's books
from that time (I'm looking at Randolph's book as I type this) gave recipes
for tomato catsup/catchup. (The 20th-century Fannie Farmer cookbooks that I
mentioned in the original posting have recipes for grape catsups, by the
way.)

> tomato based catsups were unheard of until the late 1800s when it was
> discovered that tomatoes were not just ornamental, but actually edible.

I believe you must mean "until the 1700s." That's the era the 1988
_Larousse Gastronomique_ gives for European recognition of tomato edibility.
That reference book mentions its import from Peru to Spain in the 1500s,
remaining an ornamental plant, presumed poisonous, until the 1700s. Adding
also that tomatoes are diuretic, laxative, and refreshing.

More colorful, and earlier, is the parallel history of the potato's rise to
respectability. An earlier edition of the same reference book describes
various oppositions to it. Including a 1630 ban on cultivating potatoes by
the Parliament of Besançon, "from fear of leprosy."

"l, not -l" > in :
>
> ...
> In Andrew Smith's book, Pure Ketchup ... the history of our second
> favorite condiment is documented, from it's origins in asia, to seamen
> carrying it from port to port, to ketchup on our fries. The origin seems
> to be with an asian sauce, "kecap" or "kê-tsiap", depending on where in
> asia.

Thanks for the tip about the book. From my quick check, it seems to've been
published about 1996. I wonder if it contains original research. Because
I've seen the details listed above, in popular print, from much earlier, and
in various places. (The Hesses' book that I quoted in the original posting
mentioned most of them, for instance, in the 1970s. It translated the
original Amoy Chinese "kétsiap" as "brine of pickled fish.")

(There's a market for new books, on popular subjects and maybe with a
different presentation, but covering well-traveled ground. So when absinthe
liquors became a fad a few years ago, several books rushed into print,
possibly capitalizing on the new popularity. Content-wise, they mostly had
nothing more than what was already in print for years in the existing
standard absinthe books, and some of them had less.)

> If I recall correctly, way back ... ketchup was often made from walnuts.

Walnut ketchup recipes have been fairly common in cookbooks (along with
mushroom and oyster) -- examples in recent follow-ups I posted. "Tomato
catsup" was something of a novelty for a long time and was always spelled
out, since "catsup" or "ketchup" didn't mainly mean the tomato type, until
recent decades.

Cheers -- Max

Omelet wrote:
> *Sheldon wrote:
>
> > Right now I have a glut of tomatoes, can't eat them fast enough...
>
> Gods.
>
> I'd pay the postage if I thought they'd arrive fresh. :-(
> I did not grow this year.
>
> > breakfast this morning was a two quart bowl filled with diced fresh
> > tomatoes, fresh picked parsley, a half a minced onion, juice of one
> > lime, and lots of fresh ground black pepper... no added salt, no fat,
> > no chemicals... I was too lazy to go to the garden for a cucumber.
> > Probably for dinner, with a can of sardines in tomato sauce (man > > > can't live by fiber alone, gots to have some quality protein).
>
> <sigh>
>
> Will you marry me?

Hmm, I guess this means not only do I have to plow your patch I have
to sow the seeds too. hehe

Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
than me. And this year my pepper crop is explosive, lots, and huge...
bell peppers are fantastically blocky, thick walled and heavy, and
jalapenos will be way more than I could use in ten years. Must be all
this hot weather that finally decended. But even in this heat still I
spent a good part of today string trimming. It's so hot that I have
to carry a terry towel to mop up the sweat (usual paper towels don't
do it), and I'm already on my 2nd gallon of ice water with limes.
Maybe I can get you to extract my juice... hehe

Sheldon

writes:
>Andy wrote:
>> Sheldon writes:
>>
>> >And there is no ambiguous North American spelling... ketchup is
>> >spelled "Heinz"[period] Stan will concur, and Stan is the first and
>> >final authority in ketchupdom.
>>
>> shouldn't that be "final authority in ketchupdumb"? :-D
>
>
>Huh... dumb... compared with your sorry cornholed ass Stan is Albert
>Einstein.
>
>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cornhole
>
>Sheldon


someone needs a hug!

{{{{{{{{{{SHELDON}}}}}}}}}}}

Max Hauser wrote:
> Question arose about ambiguous North American spelling of an old condiment.

Max,

I think that the ascendancy of the spelling "ketchup" is primarily a
result of Heinz having chosen it. Hunt's apparently sells both "catsup"
and "ketchup", depending on the market. There are those who think that
ketchup is genuine and variant spellings are somehow fake, on the model
of "cream" and "creme".

I got a bottle of Heinz organic ketchup recently because if has no corn
syrup, only cane sugar. It really does taste better. It came from
Canada, but the regular non-organic ketchup in Canadian stores also has
no corn syrup and tastes just as good. I think we can thank
Archer-Daniels-Midland for the need to travel to Canada or Mexico to get
decent ketchup or Coca-Cola.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

In article . com>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > *Sheldon wrote:
> >
> > > Right now I have a glut of tomatoes, can't eat them fast enough...
> >
> > Gods.
> >
> > I'd pay the postage if I thought they'd arrive fresh. :-(
> > I did not grow this year.
> >
> > > breakfast this morning was a two quart bowl filled with diced fresh
> > > tomatoes, fresh picked parsley, a half a minced onion, juice of one
> > > lime, and lots of fresh ground black pepper... no added salt, no fat,
> > > no chemicals... I was too lazy to go to the garden for a cucumber.
> > > Probably for dinner, with a can of sardines in tomato sauce (man > > >
> > > can't live by fiber alone, gots to have some quality protein).
> >
> > <sigh>
> >
> > Will you marry me?
>
> Hmm, I guess this means not only do I have to plow your patch I have
> to sow the seeds too. hehe

;-)

>
> Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
> than me. And this year my pepper crop is explosive, lots, and huge...
> bell peppers are fantastically blocky, thick walled and heavy, and
> jalapenos will be way more than I could use in ten years. Must be all
> this hot weather that finally decended. But even in this heat still I
> spent a good part of today string trimming. It's so hot that I have
> to carry a terry towel to mop up the sweat (usual paper towels don't
> do it), and I'm already on my 2nd gallon of ice water with limes.
> Maybe I can get you to extract my juice... hehe
>
> Sheldon

Cost of water.
Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water was about $150.00
per month to support just a small garden, plus the asparagus patch.

It's less expensive to hit the local farmers market.

I plan to experiment with container gardening, just have not gotten
around to it yet.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"Jerry Avins" > in
:
> ...
> I think that the ascendancy of the spelling "ketchup" is primarily a
> result of Heinz having chosen it. Hunt's apparently sells both "catsup"
> and "ketchup", depending on the market. There are those who think that
> ketchup is genuine and variant spellings are somehow fake, on the model of
> "cream" and "creme".


Of course popular late-20th-c. editions of even the two dominant
20th-century US cookbooks (Fannie Farmer and _The Joy of Cooking_) disagree
with those folks, as I mentioned. (They might want to look at a few
cookbooks I listed.)

Not to read too much into your example, Jerry. But it reminds me how usage
and writing experts go on about affected US spellings done for cynical
marketing purposes. ("Shoppe" for shop, specifically in the US -- where
"shoppe" is archaic -- it may be still common in England, I'm not sure).
"Creme," no accent, isn't a regular word in US, France, or I think England.
(Of course crème, with the grave accent, is a common French word, usefully
imported to English-speaking countries in names of specialty foods -- crème
fraîche, crème anglaise. English is always importing useful expressions.)

So if someone's willing to write "creme" in the US, they might equally spell
it kreme -- and what do you know, they do!

On Mon, 27 Aug 2007 01:04:30 +0800, wrote:

>On Sat, 25 Aug 2007 13:07:14 -0700, "Max Hauser"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>What I found in popular, mostly US, published cookbooks:
>>
>>
>>Mary Randolph,* 1824 (edition of 1860): "Catsup"
>>
>>Eliza Leslie, 1837 (edition 1851): "Catchup" (including "Tomata"
>>tchup.) -- A chapter with eight recipes. Three include wine, one beer.
>>
>>Mrs Beeton (British, edition 1861): "Ketchup"
>>
>>Fannie Farmer, 1927: "Catsup"
>>
>>Morrison Wood (_With A Jug of Wine_), 1949: "Catsup"
>>
>>Joy of Cooking, 1964: "Catsup"
>>
>>Fannie Farmer, 1965: "Catsup" (five recipes)
>>
>>
>>Respectfully submitted -- Max
>
>There is an Indonesian thick, sweet soy-based sauce called "Ketjap
>Manis", no doubt another variation on this theme :-)
>
>CJ

more commonly spelled 'kecap manis.' it's tasty, but it's not really
what you'd think of as a catsup, i.e., a boiled-own vegetable or nut.
think of a combination of soy sauce and molasses.

your pal,
blake

On Aug 27, 1:31 am, Omelet > wrote:
> In article . com>,
>
>
>
> Sheldon > wrote:
> > Omelet wrote:
> > > Sheldon wrote:
>
> > > > Right now I have a glut of tomatoes, can't eat them fast enough...
>
> > > Gods.
>
> > > I'd pay the postage if I thought they'd arrive fresh. :-(
> > > I did not grow this year.
>
> > > > breakfast this morning was a two quart bowl filled with diced fresh
> > > > tomatoes, fresh picked parsley, a half a minced onion, juice of one
> > > > lime, and lots of fresh ground black pepper... no added salt, no fat,
> > > > no chemicals... I was too lazy to go to the garden for a cucumber.
> > > > Probably for dinner, with a can of sardines in tomato sauce (man > > >
> > > > can't live by fiber alone, gots to have some quality protein).
>
> > > <sigh>
>
> > > Will you marry me?
>
> > Hmm, I guess this means not only do I have to plow your patch I have
> > to sow the seeds too. hehe
>
> ;-)
>
>
>
> > Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
> > than me. And this year my pepper crop is explosive, lots, and huge...
> > bell peppers are fantastically blocky, thick walled and heavy, and
> > jalapenos will be way more than I could use in ten years. Must be all
> > this hot weather that finally decended. But even in this heat still I
> > spent a good part of today string trimming. It's so hot that I have
> > to carry a terry towel to mop up the sweat (usual paper towels don't
> > do it), and I'm already on my 2nd gallon of ice water with limes.
> > Maybe I can get you to extract my juice... hehe
>
> > Sheldon
>
> Cost of water.
> Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water was about $150.00
> per month to support just a small garden, plus the asparagus patch.
>
> It's less expensive to hit the local farmers market.
>
> I plan to experiment with container gardening, just have not gotten
> around to it yet.
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Hi Omlet,
Have you seen this type of thing ? http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_tutorial.php
I have never used it but a colleage has been using something similar
for several years with great success.

John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Omelet wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
> > > Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
> > than me.
>
> Cost of water. Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water > was about $150.00 per month to support just a small garden, plus the asparagus patch.

People who choose to live in areas where drought is typical need to
have their own private well... even if only a shallow well for
watering crops, washing the car, and such high volume use where water
quality for mineral taste doesn't matter.

Sheldon

Omelet wrote:

...

> Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water was about $150.00
> per month to support just a small garden, plus the asparagus patch.
>
> It's less expensive to hit the local farmers market.
>
> I plan to experiment with container gardening, just have not gotten
> around to it yet.

Have you considered using gray water for your garden? The output of your
shower, dishwasher and clothes washer -- the last two are easy because
of their internal pumps -- is fine for vegetables. You could even catch
the water from your wash basin in a large jug that you empty periodically.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Max Hauser wrote:

> "Jerry Avins" > in
> :
>
>>...
>>I think that the ascendancy of the spelling "ketchup" is primarily a
>>result of Heinz having chosen it. Hunt's apparently sells both "catsup"
>>and "ketchup", depending on the market. There are those who think that
>>ketchup is genuine and variant spellings are somehow fake, on the model of
>>"cream" and "creme".
>
>
>
> Of course popular late-20th-c. editions of even the two dominant
> 20th-century US cookbooks (Fannie Farmer and _The Joy of Cooking_) disagree
> with those folks, as I mentioned. (They might want to look at a few
> cookbooks I listed.)
>
> Not to read too much into your example, Jerry. But it reminds me how usage
> and writing experts go on about affected US spellings done for cynical
> marketing purposes. ("Shoppe" for shop, specifically in the US -- where
> "shoppe" is archaic -- it may be still common in England, I'm not sure).
> "Creme," no accent, isn't a regular word in US, France, or I think England.
> (Of course crème, with the grave accent, is a common French word, usefully
> imported to English-speaking countries in names of specialty foods -- crème
> fraîche, crème anglaise. English is always importing useful expressions.)
>
> So if someone's willing to write "creme" in the US, they might equally spell
> it kreme -- and what do you know, they do!
>
>

Psst, Jerry...Krispy Kreme!

I had to look it up i just assumed it was crispy creme

http://www.krispykreme.com/
--
JL

Max Hauser wrote:
> "Jerry Avins" > in
> :
>> ...
>> I think that the ascendancy of the spelling "ketchup" is primarily a
>> result of Heinz having chosen it. Hunt's apparently sells both "catsup"
>> and "ketchup", depending on the market. There are those who think that
>> ketchup is genuine and variant spellings are somehow fake, on the model of
>> "cream" and "creme".
>
>
> Of course popular late-20th-c. editions of even the two dominant
> 20th-century US cookbooks (Fannie Farmer and _The Joy of Cooking_) disagree
> with those folks, as I mentioned. (They might want to look at a few
> cookbooks I listed.)
>
> Not to read too much into your example, Jerry. But it reminds me how usage
> and writing experts go on about affected US spellings done for cynical
> marketing purposes. ("Shoppe" for shop, specifically in the US -- where
> "shoppe" is archaic -- it may be still common in England, I'm not sure).
> "Creme," no accent, isn't a regular word in US, France, or I think England.
> (Of course cr�me, with the grave accent, is a common French word, usefully
> imported to English-speaking countries in names of specialty foods -- cr�me
> fra�che, cr�me anglaise. English is always importing useful expressions.)
>
> So if someone's willing to write "creme" in the US, they might equally spell
> it kreme -- and what do you know, they do!

It's not merely a matter of willingness. I can legally name any food
"Road Apple Creme" because creme has no meaning. There would have to be
real dairy cream in it if it were spelled "Road Apple Cream". It's like
"crispy". I can describe my Road Apple Creme as crispy with no nod to
reality, but if it's spreadable and I say it's crisp, the law will get
after me. Restaurateurs love "crispy". It's one of their favorite weasel
words. :-)

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Sheldon wrote:
> Omelet wrote:
>> Sheldon wrote:
>>>> Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
>>> than me.
>> Cost of water. Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water > was about $150.00 per month to support just a small garden, plus the asparagus patch.
>
> People who choose to live in areas where drought is typical need to
> have their own private well... even if only a shallow well for
> watering crops, washing the car, and such high volume use where water
> quality for mineral taste doesn't matter.

What is "shallow? My well in the Catskills, right next to a spring-fed
lake, went down 280 feet before hitting water.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

..)
>>
>> Not to read too much into your example, Jerry. But it reminds me how
>> usage and writing experts go on about affected US spellings done for
>> cynical marketing purposes. ("Shoppe" for shop, specifically in the
>> US -- where "shoppe" is archaic -- it may be still common in England,
>> I'm not sure). "Creme," no accent, isn't a regular word in US, France, or
>> I think England. (Of course cr?me, with the grave accent, is a common
>> French word, usefully imported to English-speaking countries in names of
>> specialty foods -- cr?me fra?che, cr?me anglaise.

English is always importing useful expressions.)

In Japan years ago, I saw a product that was very popular, a Cremora
substance. The name for it was "Creep."
I don't think the US will be importing that one :-))
Dee Dee

"Jerry Avins" > wrote in message
...
> Sheldon wrote:
>> Omelet wrote:
>>> Sheldon wrote:
>>>>> Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
>>>> than me.
>>> Cost of water. Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water >
>>> was about $150.00 per month to support just a small garden, plus the
>>> asparagus patch.
>>
>> People who choose to live in areas where drought is typical need to
>> have their own private well... even if only a shallow well for
>> watering crops, washing the car, and such high volume use where water
>> quality for mineral taste doesn't matter.
>
> What is "shallow? My well in the Catskills, right next to a spring-fed
> lake, went down 280 feet before hitting water.
>
> Jerry

Ours here -- 500'
Any deeper and we'll be in hell.
Dee Dee

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:


> Psst, Jerry...Krispy Kreme!

Yes. Imagine the brouhaha if they had written "crisp cream"!

...

My temper seems to be rather crispoid at the moment.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Dee Dee wrote:
> "Jerry Avins" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Sheldon wrote:
>>> Omelet wrote:
>>>> Sheldon wrote:
>>>>>> Why didn't you plant tomatoes, you have better tomato growing climate
>>>>> than me.
>>>> Cost of water. Last couple of summers I gardened, the cost of water >
>>>> was about $150.00 per month to support just a small garden, plus the
>>>> asparagus patch.
>>> People who choose to live in areas where drought is typical need to
>>> have their own private well... even if only a shallow well for
>>> watering crops, washing the car, and such high volume use where water
>>> quality for mineral taste doesn't matter.
>> What is "shallow? My well in the Catskills, right next to a spring-fed
>> lake, went down 280 feet before hitting water.
>>
>> Jerry
>
> Ours here -- 500'
> Any deeper and we'll be in hell.

Ouch! Well hell! :-)

Anyhow, I'm beginning to get the idea that Sheldon shoots from the hip.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯