I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
guesses from others. in my mind, it could be

__not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
pan, an hour or more later)
__wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
__fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.

thoughts?

"baltimoreben" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>

Use a shorter pan?

On Aug 26, 11:33 am, " BOB" > wrote:
> "baltimoreben" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
> >I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> > occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> > unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> > pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> > problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> > guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>
> Use a shorter pan?

now that's the kind of constructive suggestion is was looking for
(not). sorry, been using the same pans forever, that's not the
answer. it's something to do with the rise it's (not) getting in the
second rise or in the oven that i want to remedy, not how it looks at
the end of the process. as it is now the taste is fine, it's cooked
through nicely, it's just squat and makes for awfully small sandwiches

baltimoreben > wrote in news:1188148476.456590.28560
@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 26, 11:33 am, " BOB" > wrote:
>> "baltimoreben" > wrote in message
>>
>> ups.com...
>>
>> >I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
>> > occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
>> > unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
>> > pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
>> > problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for
educated
>> > guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>>
>> Use a shorter pan?
>
> now that's the kind of constructive suggestion is was looking for
> (not). sorry, been using the same pans forever, that's not the
> answer. it's something to do with the rise it's (not) getting in the
> second rise or in the oven that i want to remedy, not how it looks at
> the end of the process. as it is now the taste is fine, it's cooked
> through nicely, it's just squat and makes for awfully small sandwiches
>
>

Have you kneaded the bread enough? Allowing most of the co2 from the
yeast to be trapped and causing the bread to rise. A simple test is the
window pane method...you strech out a piece (just a pinch or so) of
dough...if kneaded enough it should stretch enough so that you can see
light through it...translucent not transparent. Before it breaks. Is your
flour too old or of a correct protein or hardness?

--

The house of the burning beet-Alan

It'll be a sunny day in August, when the Moon will shine that night-
Elbonian Folklore

"baltimoreben" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>
> __not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
> bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
> in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
> pan, an hour or more later)
> __wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
> __fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
> loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
> oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.
>
> thoughts?

Start with a higher heat -- at least 400 for 10 minutes to give a quick rise
in the oven, then turn it down to 375 to finish it off.
Dee Dee

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:30:52 -0700, baltimoreben
> wrote:

>thoughts?

Fresh ingredients..including the yeast...the most important.

"baltimoreben" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>
> __not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
> bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
> in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
> pan, an hour or more later)
> __wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
> __fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
> loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
> oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.
>
> thoughts?


First -

Your oven is way too cool. Try 425F. When you toss in 2 large cold loaves
your temperature is going to drop. This will not give you the lofting you
expect. Preheat the oven to 425 for 30 minutes. This way you won't get
nearly such a cooling effect.

Next -

Dry milk is no good. Use fresh milk.

Not enough kneading to build up gluten. Without gluten the dough won't form
those air chambers which make for lighter bread.

Old yeast. Use as fresh as you can get.

What kind of flour are you using?

Proof the yeast for 30 minutes, I use a dash of sugar and then sprinkle a
teaspoon of flour on top. It should be swampy and stinky before beginning
to mount flour

What do you use for sweetener? Seems like an awful lot to me for white
bread. I use arouind 1 tablespoon total.

Contrary to popular belief, I like to do the first rise in a cool area. I
like a slow rise because I think I get better texture. The second rise is
in a warm area. Be sure to use a very slightly, and I mean slightly, damp
towel to cover the bread as it rises in the pans. You do not want a dry
crust to form at this stage.

Do you slit the top of your loaves? Bakers the world around cut a 1/2 inch
deep slash into the loaves. Be artsy as you like. I usually make 3 slashes
diagonally.

Paul

On Sun, 26 Aug 2007 08:30:52 -0700, baltimoreben
> wrote:

>I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
>occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
>unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
>pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
>problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
>guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>
>__not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
>bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
>in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
>pan, an hour or more later)
>__wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
>__fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
>loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
>oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.
>
>thoughts?


Too much rise on the first. It should double in size. Check at
alt.bread.recipes or rec.food.baking.

--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

On Aug 26, 2:04 pm, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:
> "baltimoreben" > wrote in message
>
> ups.com...
>
>
>
> > I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> > occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> > unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> > pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> > problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> > guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>
> > __not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
> > bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
> > in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
> > pan, an hour or more later)
> > __wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
> > __fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
> > loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
> > oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.
>
> > thoughts?
>
> First -
>
> Your oven is way too cool. Try 425F. When you toss in 2 large cold loaves
> your temperature is going to drop. This will not give you the lofting you
> expect. Preheat the oven to 425 for 30 minutes. This way you won't get
> nearly such a cooling effect.
>
> Next -
>
> Dry milk is no good. Use fresh milk.
>
> Not enough kneading to build up gluten. Without gluten the dough won't form
> those air chambers which make for lighter bread.
>
> Old yeast. Use as fresh as you can get.
>
> What kind of flour are you using?
>
> Proof the yeast for 30 minutes, I use a dash of sugar and then sprinkle a
> teaspoon of flour on top. It should be swampy and stinky before beginning
> to mount flour
>
> What do you use for sweetener? Seems like an awful lot to me for white
> bread. I use arouind 1 tablespoon total.
>
> Contrary to popular belief, I like to do the first rise in a cool area. I
> like a slow rise because I think I get better texture. The second rise is
> in a warm area. Be sure to use a very slightly, and I mean slightly, damp
> towel to cover the bread as it rises in the pans. You do not want a dry
> crust to form at this stage.
>
> Do you slit the top of your loaves? Bakers the world around cut a 1/2 inch
> deep slash into the loaves. Be artsy as you like. I usually make 3 slashes
> diagonally.
>
> Paul

now we're talking.

1. age of ingredients. certainly a very distinct possibility. my
yeast is always within date, but certainly some of the flours i use
may be too old. the white is always fresh, but when i add in a bit of
this and that, those may be sitting in the pantry too long.
2. i do slit. that's not the issue. i think i probably knead enough
too.
3. hotter oven. i was wondering about that the whole time. the kind
of thing doing this so infrequently has probably slipped my mind.
good suggestion.
4. the dry milk. my wife's idea. i never used to use it. happily
drop it.
5. too much first rise. hmm...never thought about that one. been
using the same bowl for 20 years, stopping it at about the same time
and having inconsistent results, so figured it had to be something
after that.
6. the sweetener. depends what's handy. first choice is honey,
white or light brown sugars otherwise. never had a problem with
quantity, and probably not what's impacting the texture/shape.

well, lots to think about here, including some things easy to address
right away, some things to play with once i get closer to where i want
things to be.

In article . com>,
baltimoreben > wrote:

> I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
>
> __not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
> bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
> in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
> pan, an hour or more later)
> __wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
> __fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
> loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
> oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.
>
> thoughts?

Lose the sweetener, for a start. It makes no difference to the rise and
will make your bread taste bad.

Miche

--
In the monastery office --
Before enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper
After enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper

"baltimoreben" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On Aug 26, 2:04 pm, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
> > "baltimoreben" > wrote in message
> >
> > ups.com...
> >
> >
> >
> > > I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
> > > occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
> > > unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
> > > pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
> > > problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
> > > guesses from others. in my mind, it could be
> >
> > > __not enough patience on the second rise (my ball fills my largest
> > > bowl for the first, i punch down and do a quick knead, shape and put
> > > in the pans, generally put in the oven when it rises to the top of the
> > > pan, an hour or more later)
> > > __wrong time/temp combination (i generally do 350 for around 40 mins)
> > > __fundamentally the wrong recipe -- i play, but generally i'm making 2
> > > loaves, start with 1 1/4c water, 4 tsp yeast, 1/4 c sweetener, 1/3 c
> > > oil, around 1/2c dry milk, 1 egg, 5 1/2 c flours, 1tsp salt.
> >
> > > thoughts?
> >
> > First -
> >
> > Your oven is way too cool. Try 425F. When you toss in 2 large cold
loaves
> > your temperature is going to drop. This will not give you the lofting
you
> > expect. Preheat the oven to 425 for 30 minutes. This way you won't get
> > nearly such a cooling effect.
> >
> > Next -
> >
> > Dry milk is no good. Use fresh milk.
> >
> > Not enough kneading to build up gluten. Without gluten the dough won't
form
> > those air chambers which make for lighter bread.
> >
> > Old yeast. Use as fresh as you can get.
> >
> > What kind of flour are you using?
> >
> > Proof the yeast for 30 minutes, I use a dash of sugar and then sprinkle
a
> > teaspoon of flour on top. It should be swampy and stinky before
beginning
> > to mount flour
> >
> > What do you use for sweetener? Seems like an awful lot to me for white
> > bread. I use arouind 1 tablespoon total.
> >
> > Contrary to popular belief, I like to do the first rise in a cool area.
I
> > like a slow rise because I think I get better texture. The second rise
is
> > in a warm area. Be sure to use a very slightly, and I mean slightly,
damp
> > towel to cover the bread as it rises in the pans. You do not want a dry
> > crust to form at this stage.
> >
> > Do you slit the top of your loaves? Bakers the world around cut a 1/2
inch
> > deep slash into the loaves. Be artsy as you like. I usually make 3
slashes
> > diagonally.
> >
> > Paul
>
> now we're talking.
>
> 1. age of ingredients. certainly a very distinct possibility. my
> yeast is always within date, but certainly some of the flours i use
> may be too old. the white is always fresh, but when i add in a bit of
> this and that, those may be sitting in the pantry too long.
> 2. i do slit. that's not the issue. i think i probably knead enough
> too.

Try the window test another poster suggested. Gluten allows the bread to
stretch out. You've kneaded enough when you have enough gluten. Usually 15
minutes or until your arms fall off, whichever happens first.

> 3. hotter oven. i was wondering about that the whole time. the kind
> of thing doing this so infrequently has probably slipped my mind.
> good suggestion.

Some people cook on a stone regardless of whether or not they use pans.
Heat is the secret. Constant, steady and high heat.

> 4. the dry milk. my wife's idea. i never used to use it. happily
> drop it.

That will bring your liquids to 2 cups. You'll need more like 7 cups of
flour but this will give you much bigger loaves, too. Remember, you never
measure flour, you add as much as is needed. It varies depending on the
flour, moisture content etc.

> 5. too much first rise. hmm...never thought about that one. been
> using the same bowl for 20 years, stopping it at about the same time
> and having inconsistent results, so figured it had to be something
> after that.

Possibly not a problem then.

> 6. the sweetener. depends what's handy. first choice is honey,
> white or light brown sugars otherwise. never had a problem with
> quantity, and probably not what's impacting the texture/shape.

I seem to recall bread yeasts do not like honey. Can't be sure, so look it
up. Remember they are eating sugars and starches in your bread while it
develops. Feed them what they want.

> well, lots to think about here, including some things easy to address
> right away, some things to play with once i get closer to where i want
> things to be.

I'm betting on gluten and heat as your problems.

Paul
>

baltimoreben wrote:
>>
>>> I used to bake all my bread, now only have time to do so on rare
>>> occasion. unfortunately, as often as not i have the same
>>> unsatisfactory result -- loaves that don't even reach the top of the
>>> pan when they come out of the oven. wondering what might be the
>>> problem, not enough time for experimentation, so looking for educated
>>> guesses from others.


Is your yeast fairly fresh?

Is the place you are keeping the dough fairly warm?

Are you giving the second rise enough time?

Are you letting the first rise go too long so the yeast has done its
thing and has nothing left to give before you punch it down?

Is your oven preheated enough to provide "oven spring" when you begin
baking?



gloria p

"baltimoreben" > wrote in message

I have been reading your posts with interest. I hope you won't be
offended, but you seem to have an awful lot of stuff going into your bread

Might I suggest you learn to make a lean loaf first, to see how it behaves
before you start with the fancy stuff.

All you need is flour, yeast, salt, water!

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
> "baltimoreben" > wrote in message
>
> I have been reading your posts with interest. I hope you won't be
> offended, but you seem to have an awful lot of stuff going into your bread
>
> Might I suggest you learn to make a lean loaf first, to see how it
> behaves before you start with the fancy stuff.
>
> All you need is flour, yeast, salt, water!
RIGHT! That's the best reminder, many people do not realize this. It's my
favorite kind.

No matter whether I use additives, such as butter, or oil; or sugar of any
nature, I have this formula I repeat to myself when I make bread: '1:
liquid, 2: dry, 3: yeast.' or I'll darned well forget the yeast.

Dee Dee