In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> >We spend a LOT of money covering our asses.
> >
> >Right Goomba? I know you have seen this as much, if not more, than I
> >have.
> >
>
> the idea that malpractice judgments are responsible for high health
> care costs just isn't true. it's more republican propaganda for 'tort
> reform,' i.e., protection for corporations against having to pay for
> their misdeeds.

Blake Hon', I assure you that you are very mistaken.

I'm too tired right now to type out all the examples but suffice it to
say that you have not been there, seen that. It runs far, FAR deeper
than just lawyers fees when it comes to the "Cover your Ass" mentality
and the sheer waste of money and materials and over-regulation that that
entails costing even more.

It's as complicated at a spiderweb.

Or the internet.

You don't work there. I do. I see the complexity of the sheer waste that
goes on, and the NECESSITY of that waste due to legal issues.

It sux.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:57:39 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Becca > wrote:
> >
> >> > Now that you have some actual facts at your disposal, will you please
> >> > explain again why the US health care system is so great?
> >>
> >> The single payer system is different, so it frightens people.
> >>
> >> If the US put as much money in health care as we put into the military,
> >> we would have a healthier nation.
> >>
> >> Becca
> >
> >Oh gods... You WOULD go there! ;-)
> >If we put as much money into Education as we did the military, we'd have
> >the best educated kids in the world.
> >
> >Problem is, throwing money at a problem does not always fix it. :-(
> >We wish.
>
> no, but throwing money at insurance companies is not going to fix out
> health system, either. yet that's what we're doing now.
>
> there's a middleman in the u.s. that is not dedicated to providing
> health care, but rather dedicated to avoid paying benefits to the
> insured. that's most of the problem.
>
> your pal,
> blake

You wish.

It's a bigger, deeper and more complex problem than what you are
proposing.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> >People who have not experienced anything but the US system haven't a clue,
> >and that's partly because what they hear of other systems is very
> >controlled.
>
> your last paragraph nails it, guisi. added to the belief that america
> is necessarily 'the best' at whatever we do makes change very
> difficult.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Not all of us are that arrogant babe. ;-)
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"blake murphy" > ha scritto nel messaggio
news
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:13:26 +0200, "Giusi" >
> wrote:
>>People who have not experienced anything but the US system haven't a clue,
>>and that's partly because what they hear of other systems is very
>>controlled.
>
> your last paragraph nails it, guisi. added to the belief that america
> is necessarily 'the best' at whatever we do makes change very
> difficult.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I have plenty of experience there and now 7 years here. I can tell you that
for me this is by far the best.
When I have had a simple problem, they've gone the extra miles to be sure
I didn't have a more complicated one. My drugs are free, but I paid until I
qualified. The main drug I must take cost 7 years ago $60 a month. Here it
is less than euro 20. My co-pay for surgery was euro 16. Total. It was
necessary but not life threatening. I waited 2 weeks.
--
http://www.judithgreenwood.com

Omelet wrote:
>
> I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> have told me of such.

we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
emergency or trauma.

We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few years.
I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:34:58 +1200, Miche > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Goomba38 > wrote:
> >
> >> Peter A wrote:
> >>
> >> > Now that you have some actual facts at your disposal, will you please
> >> > explain again why the US health care system is so great?
> >> >
> >> Because I have a choice. I want what I want when I want it and that
> >> alone is worth something to me. I want to pick and choose my own
> >> doctors, not be assigned one or limited in seeing the specialists I
> >> might need. I have those choices now. I don't want to lose that.
> >
> >I have that.
>
> but, but...you have eeeviiiil socialized medicine! it can't be true!

Heheheh.

Miche (ebil)

--
In the monastery office --
Before enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper
After enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper

In article >, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> >
> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> > have told me of such.
>
> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
> emergency or trauma.

We only have long waiting lists for some things in New Zealand -- for
most things the waiting times are bearable if not actually non-existent.
Cancer patients do not wait months for treatment here.

Also, I can choose my own GP. If I need a specialist referral I'll get
assigned a specialist but if they're not a good fit for me, I can ask to
see someone else. (This has actually happened to me, btw.)

Miche

--
In the monastery office --
Before enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper
After enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper

Miche wrote:
>
> In article >, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
> > Omelet wrote:
> > >
> > > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> > > have told me of such.
> >
> > we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
> > emergency or trauma.
>
> We only have long waiting lists for some things in New Zealand -- for
> most things the waiting times are bearable if not actually non-existent.
> Cancer patients do not wait months for treatment here.
>
> Also, I can choose my own GP. If I need a specialist referral I'll get
> assigned a specialist but if they're not a good fit for me, I can ask to
> see someone else. (This has actually happened to me, btw.)
>
> Miche


When I was on the NHS in London, I could nearly always get same-day
appointments with my doctor (who I *chose* when I registered). Not one
person I knew who needed 'serious' medical care ever had to wait any
longer than anyone in the US ever does and usually got it in less time.
OTOH my mother's US HMO made her wait *4 months* before they let her
have surgery for very early lung cancer. The specialist surgeon was
extremely angry that the system made her wait that long and I've heard
from other patients that they've had to wait as well. Fortunately she's
fine with no recurrence so far.

Even my 'high priority' next appointment with the opthalmologists here
(in US) is taking over three months; which means I'm *still* having to
put up with defective vision.

I don't know why Ophelia had to wait; that's never been my experience
with the NHS in London. Perhaps there are regional variations just like
in the US.

Arri London wrote:
>>
> I don't know why Ophelia had to wait; that's never been my experience
> with the NHS in London. Perhaps there are regional variations just
> like in the US.

I didn't wait Arri, I have private insurance. What I said was, that I would
have had to wait a long time if I wanted to go NHS

In fact a receptionist at my local Doc's surgery needs a new knee. She has
been waiting for years because they say it is not urgent. The poor woman
walks very badly and is in a lot of pain

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:57:39 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>Problem is, throwing money at a problem does not always fix it. :-(
>We wish.

Bill Cosby once said: "If I can throw money at a problem and fix it,
it's NOT a problem".


--

Ham and eggs.
A day's work for the chicken, a lifetime commitment for the pig.

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:14:25 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:43:34 -0400, Peter A >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >, Goomba38
>> says...
>> >> But the truth is is that not *everyone* there really "gets the service"
>> >> they want. There is rationing, and exclusions based on age and other
>> >> factors that we don't subscribe to but these are often not mentioned in
>> >> the argument for nationalized health care. There are limitations on
>> >> which doctors one can use or see. It is a different system, but not
>> >> necessarily a better one. They each have their points but no country has
>> >> managed to combine the best of each into one program.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >The US spends a lot more, per capita, on health care than any other
>> >country. The last stats I saw, a few years ago, had the US spending
>> >about 40% more per capita than Canada. When you compare waiting times
>> >and similar measures, you must take this into account. When the US
>> >system comes out as "superior" it's not necessarily because our free
>> >market health care is inherently better that the "socialized" systems of
>> >other countries - it's simply because we pour a lot more money into
>> >health care. If Canadians decided to spend 40% more on health care,
>> >their socialized system would likely be better than ours.
>>
>> and if you look at stats like infant mortality or life expectancy,
>> u.s. health care is not better than canada, britain or france.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
>Blake.
>
>It runs much deeper than that. The "cost per capita" is not the real
>problem. If only it were that easy.

no, but the fact that we spend more per capita for poorer results
means our system is not 'the best.' by a long shot.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:21:53 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:17:29 -0500, Omelet >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > Peter A > wrote:
>> >
>> >> In article >, Goomba38
>> >> @comcast.net says...
>> >> > But the truth is is that not *everyone* there really "gets the service"
>> >> > they want. There is rationing, and exclusions based on age and other
>> >> > factors that we don't subscribe to but these are often not mentioned in
>> >> > the argument for nationalized health care. There are limitations on
>> >> > which doctors one can use or see. It is a different system, but not
>> >> > necessarily a better one. They each have their points but no country has
>> >> > managed to combine the best of each into one program.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> The US spends a lot more, per capita, on health care than any other
>> >> country. The last stats I saw, a few years ago, had the US spending
>> >> about 40% more per capita than Canada. When you compare waiting times
>> >> and similar measures, you must take this into account. When the US
>> >> system comes out as "superior" it's not necessarily because our free
>> >> market health care is inherently better that the "socialized" systems of
>> >> other countries - it's simply because we pour a lot more money into
>> >> health care. If Canadians decided to spend 40% more on health care,
>> >> their socialized system would likely be better than ours.
>> >
>> >Being forced to wait 6 months for breast cancer surgery can be a death
>> >sentence.
>> >
>> >"Free" is not always better.
>>
>> please give examples of a country with a six-month waiting list for
>> breast cancer surgery. (other than the u.s. if you have no
>> insurance.)
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
>I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>have told me of such.
>
>And long waiting lists for needed surgeries in Canada.
>You also rarely get to pick your own doctor. You may not even have the
>same one twice in a row. (or so I have been told)
>
>I'm glad that you have had nothing but good experiences, but abuse of
>the health care system is occurring in some areas according to others
>(anecdotal complaints, sorry) so it's apparently not all coming up roses?
>
>I don't live there so I have no personal experience. Just several years
>on the web and lots of gripes.
>
>It's not all perfect here either but Charity Care exists. Actually,
>those that qualify for such are often luckier than those with middle
>class incomes. We get wiped out, they get cared for for free.
>
some form of universal health insurance would take care of that.

>Why do you think so many are bitching about the illegal alien thing?
>They don't pay into the system and get free health care as they have no
>way of paying, but we are not allowed to ignore them and let them die.
>
i would like to see stats on this. it sounds like another right-wing
talking points. free emergency-room care, maybe, but non-citizens, as
far as i know, are not qualified for medicare or medicaid. it is a
justification for anti-immigrant bias. don't forget that all those
people working with a fake social security number never collect
benefits.

your pal,
blake







>We that DO have a certain level of income and DO pay into the system are
>the ones that get hurt in, say, a terminal illness situation.
>
>Not everything is equitable.

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:47:24 +0100, "Ophelia" > wrote:

>Omelet wrote:
>>
>> I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>> have told me of such.
>
>we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
>emergency or trauma.
>
>We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few years.
>I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
>wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now
>
it's another right-wing myth that one will be forced to use government
services. if you have the money, you can bypass the system under
almost any universal care program.

your pal,
blake

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:23:44 +1200, Miche > wrote:

>In article >, "Ophelia" >
>wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>> >
>> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>> > have told me of such.
>>
>> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
>> emergency or trauma.
>
>We only have long waiting lists for some things in New Zealand -- for
>most things the waiting times are bearable if not actually non-existent.
>Cancer patients do not wait months for treatment here.
>
>Also, I can choose my own GP. If I need a specialist referral I'll get
>assigned a specialist but if they're not a good fit for me, I can ask to
>see someone else. (This has actually happened to me, btw.)
>
>Miche

uh-oh, more facts instead of tales from a friend of a friend. what
are you trying to do, muddy the discussion?

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:51:06 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> >We spend a LOT of money covering our asses.
>> >
>> >Right Goomba? I know you have seen this as much, if not more, than I
>> >have.
>> >
>>
>> the idea that malpractice judgments are responsible for high health
>> care costs just isn't true. it's more republican propaganda for 'tort
>> reform,' i.e., protection for corporations against having to pay for
>> their misdeeds.
>
>Blake Hon', I assure you that you are very mistaken.
>
>I'm too tired right now to type out all the examples but suffice it to
>say that you have not been there, seen that. It runs far, FAR deeper
>than just lawyers fees when it comes to the "Cover your Ass" mentality
>and the sheer waste of money and materials and over-regulation that that
>entails costing even more.
>
>It's as complicated at a spiderweb.
>
>Or the internet.
>
>You don't work there. I do. I see the complexity of the sheer waste that
>goes on, and the NECESSITY of that waste due to legal issues.
>
>It sux.

this is just another aspect of a system that's not really oriented to
delivering health care. if the insurance industry (both health
insurance and malpractice insurance) are to make a profit, somebody
pays. that money doesn't go to health care.

most doctors are no so inept that they have to cover their asses in
such a way. but if they don't, guess what - no insurance.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:51:57 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:57:39 -0500, Omelet >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > Becca > wrote:
>> >
>> >> > Now that you have some actual facts at your disposal, will you please
>> >> > explain again why the US health care system is so great?
>> >>
>> >> The single payer system is different, so it frightens people.
>> >>
>> >> If the US put as much money in health care as we put into the military,
>> >> we would have a healthier nation.
>> >>
>> >> Becca
>> >
>> >Oh gods... You WOULD go there! ;-)
>> >If we put as much money into Education as we did the military, we'd have
>> >the best educated kids in the world.
>> >
>> >Problem is, throwing money at a problem does not always fix it. :-(
>> >We wish.
>>
>> no, but throwing money at insurance companies is not going to fix out
>> health system, either. yet that's what we're doing now.
>>
>> there's a middleman in the u.s. that is not dedicated to providing
>> health care, but rather dedicated to avoid paying benefits to the
>> insured. that's most of the problem.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
>You wish.
>
>It's a bigger, deeper and more complex problem than what you are
>proposing.

maybe so, but almost all other industrialized countries are handling
it better. why stick with what we've got now? other than the fact
that the people making money now are pretty happy with it, and are
willing to spend some bucks to keep it that way, i see none. the
typical consumer of health care is not ecstatic about the whole thing.

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:52:43 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> >People who have not experienced anything but the US system haven't a clue,
>> >and that's partly because what they hear of other systems is very
>> >controlled.
>>
>> your last paragraph nails it, guisi. added to the belief that america
>> is necessarily 'the best' at whatever we do makes change very
>> difficult.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
>Not all of us are that arrogant babe. ;-)

maybe so, but the fact is that most other first world countries'
systems are better. this makes *me* arrogant?

your pal,
blake

On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:05:38 +0200, "Giusi" >
wrote:

>"blake murphy" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>news
>> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:13:26 +0200, "Giusi" >
>> wrote:
>>>People who have not experienced anything but the US system haven't a clue,
>>>and that's partly because what they hear of other systems is very
>>>controlled.
>>
>> your last paragraph nails it, guisi. added to the belief that america
>> is necessarily 'the best' at whatever we do makes change very
>> difficult.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
>I have plenty of experience there and now 7 years here. I can tell you that
>for me this is by far the best.
> When I have had a simple problem, they've gone the extra miles to be sure
>I didn't have a more complicated one. My drugs are free, but I paid until I
>qualified. The main drug I must take cost 7 years ago $60 a month. Here it
>is less than euro 20. My co-pay for surgery was euro 16. Total. It was
>necessary but not life threatening. I waited 2 weeks.

oh noes! more facts! where's rush limbaugh when you need him?

your pal,
blake

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:58:49 -0700, sf wrote:

>On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:57:39 -0500, Omelet >
>wrote:
>
>>Problem is, throwing money at a problem does not always fix it. :-(
>>We wish.
>
>Bill Cosby once said: "If I can throw money at a problem and fix it,
>it's NOT a problem".

right. so the obvious solution is to throw more money at the problem
than anyone else does even though it doesn't solve it.

your pal,
blake

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:47:24 +0100, "Ophelia" > wrote:
>
>>Omelet wrote:
>>>
>>> I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>>> have told me of such.
>>
>>we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
>>emergency or trauma.
>>
>>We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few
>>years.
>>I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
>>wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now
>>
> it's another right-wing myth that one will be forced to use government
> services. if you have the money, you can bypass the system under
> almost any universal care program.

Indeed!!!!

In article >, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> >
> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> > have told me of such.
>
> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
> emergency or trauma.
>
> We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few years.
> I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
> wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now

It's a bit frightening...

Before dad was old enough to qualify for SSI (Medicare A and B, age 65)
he had a very bad hernia. Being a veteran on total Government assistance
(not sure that medicare would have been much better), he had to wait 9
months for surgery to repair it.

In the meantime, he had to lie down on the bed a couple of times per day
at least to "adjust" his hernia when the pain got really bad.

He had to manipulate the area and tuck his intestines back into place
that were trying to come thru the abdominal wall.

Government health care is not all it's cracked up to be. The abuse of
the system floods it.

And I understand that the health care workers pay is so bad, there are
not enough of them to serve the needs of the public.

I'm just glad that his appendicitis attack in April of 2006 was treated
more expediently. He was 73 at the time.

There IS social health care in the US for some. Medicare and Medicaid.

We still are paying out the co-pay balance of around $4,000,00, but
that's do-able over time.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >, sf wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:57:39 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >Problem is, throwing money at a problem does not always fix it. :-(
> >We wish.
>
> Bill Cosby once said: "If I can throw money at a problem and fix it,
> it's NOT a problem".

I believe it.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>> >
>> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>> > have told me of such.
>>
>> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
>> emergency or trauma.
>>
>> We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few
>> years.
>> I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
>> wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now
>
> It's a bit frightening...
>
> Before dad was old enough to qualify for SSI (Medicare A and B, age 65)
> he had a very bad hernia. Being a veteran on total Government assistance
> (not sure that medicare would have been much better), he had to wait 9
> months for surgery to repair it.
>
> In the meantime, he had to lie down on the bed a couple of times per day
> at least to "adjust" his hernia when the pain got really bad.
>
> He had to manipulate the area and tuck his intestines back into place
> that were trying to come thru the abdominal wall.
>
> Government health care is not all it's cracked up to be. The abuse of
> the system floods it.
>
> And I understand that the health care workers pay is so bad, there are
> not enough of them to serve the needs of the public.
>
> I'm just glad that his appendicitis attack in April of 2006 was treated
> more expediently. He was 73 at the time.
>
> There IS social health care in the US for some. Medicare and Medicaid.
>
> We still are paying out the co-pay balance of around $4,000,00, but
> that's do-able over time.

Oh dear Seems it is not easy anywhere

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> >It runs much deeper than that. The "cost per capita" is not the real
> >problem. If only it were that easy.
>
> no, but the fact that we spend more per capita for poorer results
> means our system is not 'the best.' by a long shot.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I don't believe that _I_ ever said it was?
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> >It's not all perfect here either but Charity Care exists. Actually,
> >those that qualify for such are often luckier than those with middle
> >class incomes. We get wiped out, they get cared for for free.
> >
> some form of universal health insurance would take care of that.
>
> >Why do you think so many are bitching about the illegal alien thing?
> >They don't pay into the system and get free health care as they have no
> >way of paying, but we are not allowed to ignore them and let them die.
> >
> i would like to see stats on this. it sounds like another right-wing
> talking points. free emergency-room care, maybe, but non-citizens, as
> far as i know, are not qualified for medicare or medicaid. it is a
> justification for anti-immigrant bias. don't forget that all those
> people working with a fake social security number never collect
> benefits.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Don't make me go there Blake. (ok, hypocritical since I mentioned it, so
forget it!)

Let's just say I work there and see it every day...

Americans, as a general rule, don't leave women in labor in a ditch to
die.

No matter what their race.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 21:47:24 +0100, "Ophelia" > wrote:
>
> >Omelet wrote:
> >>
> >> I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> >> have told me of such.
> >
> >we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
> >emergency or trauma.
> >
> >We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few years.
> >I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
> >wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now
> >
> it's another right-wing myth that one will be forced to use government
> services. if you have the money, you can bypass the system under
> almost any universal care program.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I love that qualifier.

"If you have the money".

Thanks for that.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:23:44 +1200, Miche > wrote:
>
> >In article >, "Ophelia" >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Omelet wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> >> > have told me of such.
> >>
> >> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
> >> emergency or trauma.
> >
> >We only have long waiting lists for some things in New Zealand -- for
> >most things the waiting times are bearable if not actually non-existent.
> >Cancer patients do not wait months for treatment here.
> >
> >Also, I can choose my own GP. If I need a specialist referral I'll get
> >assigned a specialist but if they're not a good fit for me, I can ask to
> >see someone else. (This has actually happened to me, btw.)
> >
> >Miche
>
> uh-oh, more facts instead of tales from a friend of a friend. what
> are you trying to do, muddy the discussion?
>
> your pal,
> blake

Must be nice to be rich Blake.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> >> there's a middleman in the u.s. that is not dedicated to providing
> >> health care, but rather dedicated to avoid paying benefits to the
> >> insured. that's most of the problem.
> >>
> >> your pal,
> >> blake
> >
> >You wish.
> >
> >It's a bigger, deeper and more complex problem than what you are
> >proposing.
>
> maybe so, but almost all other industrialized countries are handling
> it better. why stick with what we've got now? other than the fact
> that the people making money now are pretty happy with it, and are
> willing to spend some bucks to keep it that way, i see none. the
> typical consumer of health care is not ecstatic about the whole thing.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Neither are the providers.

Our hospital just sold out to a larger organization due to the fact that
a smaller, private facility is no longer able to compete and still
provide good care to the community.

The operational money has to come from SOMEwhere!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

> > We still are paying out the co-pay balance of around $4,000,00, but
> > that's do-able over time.
>
> Oh dear Seems it is not easy anywhere

Nope!

But at least we can make payments and not have to go bankrupt.
And if you are paying to the providers, it's interest free.

And I still have my dad. :-)

The original bill was over 15K. Medicare A paid for most of it.

But only because his age made him eligible.

The problem is is that there were 4 bills originally. One for the
ambulance, one for the surgeon, one for the hospital and one for the
anesthesiologist.

Medicare A only paid for most of the hospital bill. He did not have part
B at the time that would have covered most of the other stuff. He did
not want to shell out the extra $80.00 per month that that would have
cost.

Men have immortality complexes until the end it seems. <sigh>
--
Peace, Om

Remove _'s to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

>>
> it's another right-wing myth that one will be forced to use government
> services. if you have the money, you can bypass the system under
> almost any universal care program.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Blake, if anyone disagrees with your politics, religion or whatever, you
don't seem to know how to listen to anyone. It's like throwing a dog a bone
and he growls without thinking, parroting the same ole growl.

I have stated this previously, and you don't care to listen. When one has
medicare, one HAS to have it and cannot bypass the system. I would rather
not ever have medicare -- I don't want it. I don't mind paying into it for
others, but I don't want it for myself. You are right, it isn't good enough
for me. I carry my own insurance, I want it, I pay for it. I have the
money to pay for it, and I do without other things because I want it. My
own insurance went up 300% last year. I kept it. I don't want to have to
go thru medicare paperwork before my insurance will take care of anything,
but I goddamned well HAVE TO.

IOW I have the money, and I cannot bypass the system. You don't have a clue
to what you are talking about.
Dee Dee

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>> Omelet wrote:
>> >
>> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>> > have told me of such.
>>
>> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
>> emergency or trauma.
>>
>> We pay for BUPA and I have made very good use of it over the past few
>> years.
>> I have had both knees replaced and implants into both eyes. If I had to
>> wait for the NHS I would be blind and in a wheelchair now
>
> It's a bit frightening...
>
> Before dad was old enough to qualify for SSI (Medicare A and B, age 65)
> he had a very bad hernia. Being a veteran on total Government assistance
> (not sure that medicare would have been much better), he had to wait 9
> months for surgery to repair it.
>
> In the meantime, he had to lie down on the bed a couple of times per day
> at least to "adjust" his hernia when the pain got really bad.
>
> He had to manipulate the area and tuck his intestines back into place
> that were trying to come thru the abdominal wall.
>
> Government health care is not all it's cracked up to be. The abuse of
> the system floods it.
>
> And I understand that the health care workers pay is so bad, there are
> not enough of them to serve the needs of the public.
>
> I'm just glad that his appendicitis attack in April of 2006 was treated
> more expediently. He was 73 at the time.
>
> There IS social health care in the US for some. Medicare and Medicaid.
>
> We still are paying out the co-pay balance of around $4,000,00, but
> that's do-able over time.
> --
> Peace, Om

DH's father has had hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of treatment
under the Veteran Administration from the best doctors at Yale. His care is
excellent. I'd say 150% it's so good. He has survived two cancers,
hernias, and you operations, rehabs, etc. He is not in debt from all this.
He's living a decent life and we are thankful.
Dee Dee

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:21:53 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> blake murphy > wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:17:29 -0500, Omelet >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >In article >,
>>> > Peter A > wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> In article >, Goomba38
>>> >> @comcast.net says...
>>> >> > But the truth is is that not *everyone* there really "gets the
>>> >> > service"
>>> >> > they want. There is rationing, and exclusions based on age and
>>> >> > other
>>> >> > factors that we don't subscribe to but these are often not
>>> >> > mentioned in
>>> >> > the argument for nationalized health care. There are limitations on
>>> >> > which doctors one can use or see. It is a different system, but not
>>> >> > necessarily a better one. They each have their points but no
>>> >> > country has
>>> >> > managed to combine the best of each into one program.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >>
>>> >> The US spends a lot more, per capita, on health care than any other
>>> >> country. The last stats I saw, a few years ago, had the US spending
>>> >> about 40% more per capita than Canada. When you compare waiting times
>>> >> and similar measures, you must take this into account. When the US
>>> >> system comes out as "superior" it's not necessarily because our free
>>> >> market health care is inherently better that the "socialized" systems
>>> >> of
>>> >> other countries - it's simply because we pour a lot more money into
>>> >> health care. If Canadians decided to spend 40% more on health care,
>>> >> their socialized system would likely be better than ours.
>>> >
>>> >Being forced to wait 6 months for breast cancer surgery can be a death
>>> >sentence.
>>> >
>>> >"Free" is not always better.
>>>
>>> please give examples of a country with a six-month waiting list for
>>> breast cancer surgery. (other than the u.s. if you have no
>>> insurance.)
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>>
>>I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
>>have told me of such.
>>
>>And long waiting lists for needed surgeries in Canada.
>>You also rarely get to pick your own doctor. You may not even have the
>>same one twice in a row. (or so I have been told)
>>
>>I'm glad that you have had nothing but good experiences, but abuse of
>>the health care system is occurring in some areas according to others
>>(anecdotal complaints, sorry) so it's apparently not all coming up roses?
>>
>>I don't live there so I have no personal experience. Just several years
>>on the web and lots of gripes.
>>
>>It's not all perfect here either but Charity Care exists. Actually,
>>those that qualify for such are often luckier than those with middle
>>class incomes. We get wiped out, they get cared for for free.
>>
> some form of universal health insurance would take care of that.
>
>>Why do you think so many are bitching about the illegal alien thing?
>>They don't pay into the system and get free health care as they have no
>>way of paying, but we are not allowed to ignore them and let them die.
>>
> i would like to see stats on this. it sounds like another right-wing
> talking points. free emergency-room care, maybe, but non-citizens, as
> far as i know, are not qualified for medicare or medicaid. it is a
> justification for anti-immigrant bias. don't forget that all those
> people working with a fake social security number never collect
> benefits.
>
> your pal,
> blake
>

Is that you again, Blake fixated on your right-wing talking points
accusation. Not everyone is as right wing or radical left as you think they
are just because they have a different opinion than you. Why put everyone
in a box, has anyone accused you of having radical left talking points, I
think not.

The state of CT has sent out notices to its citizens this month to put fraud
alerts on their credit cards because of use of stolen laptops with social
security numbers and tax records.

Have you seen the latest news about government checking on social security
cards to see if they are duplicates, and the unions are suing the government
to keep the government from catching the duplicates.

DeeDee

Dee Dee wrote:
>> it's another right-wing myth that one will be forced to use
>> government services. if you have the money, you can bypass the
>> system under almost any universal care program.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> Blake, if anyone disagrees with your politics, religion or whatever,
> you don't seem to know how to listen to anyone. It's like throwing a
> dog a bone and he growls without thinking, parroting the same ole
> growl.
> I have stated this previously, and you don't care to listen. When one
> has medicare, one HAS to have it and cannot bypass the system. I
> would rather not ever have medicare -- I don't want it. I don't mind
> paying into it for others, but I don't want it for myself. You are
> right, it isn't good enough for me. I carry my own insurance, I want
> it, I pay for it. I have the money to pay for it, and I do without
> other things because I want it. My own insurance went up 300% last
> year. I kept it. I don't want to have to go thru medicare paperwork
> before my insurance will take care of anything, but I goddamned well
> HAVE TO.
> IOW I have the money, and I cannot bypass the system. You don't have
> a clue to what you are talking about.

I think I see what you are saying Dee Dee. *We* also must pay NHS
insurance. It is taken from our salaries. So, for people who work, NHS is
not free.

BUT, we elect to pay for private Insurance as well.

Incidentally, there is an organisation called The National Institute for
Clinical Excellence (NICE) which decides if the goverment will pay for
various medications. If they say no, then a person may be left to die

We often have people who have been denied medication that could save their
lives who take NICE to court to try to get the decision overturned. They
are not always successful. Remember, these can be those who have paid into
the NHS for most of their lives

"Ophelia" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...


>> IOW I have the money, and I cannot bypass the system. You don't have
>> a clue to what you are talking about.
>
> I think I see what you are saying Dee Dee. *We* also must pay NHS
> insurance. It is taken from our salaries. So, for people who work, NHS is
> not free.
>
> BUT, we elect to pay for private Insurance as well.
>
> Incidentally, there is an organisation called The National Institute for
> Clinical Excellence (NICE) which decides if the goverment will pay for
> various medications. If they say no, then a person may be left to die
>
> We often have people who have been denied medication that could save their
> lives who take NICE to court to try to get the decision overturned. They
> are not always successful. Remember, these can be those who have paid
> into the NHS for most of their lives

O, it is quite different here. People do sometimes have alternate
insurance, but most exist within the system, and most are fairly satisfied
with it. The big complaints I hear are in very large cities where the
system is stressed and in the south, where everything is more difficult.
The systems are regional, and ours in Umbria is very good. I've worked in
the hospital translating and providing macrobiotic food, so I'm not ignorant
of it. Special services are distributed around the country, so someone from
here may be sent to another area for certain long term treatments, and they
accommodate a family member as well as the patient in many cases. I have
few complaints.

--
http://www.judithgreenwood.com

Giusi wrote:
> "Ophelia" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> ...
>
>
>>> IOW I have the money, and I cannot bypass the system. You don't have
>>> a clue to what you are talking about.
>>
>> I think I see what you are saying Dee Dee. *We* also must pay NHS
>> insurance. It is taken from our salaries. So, for people who work,
>> NHS is not free.
>>
>> BUT, we elect to pay for private Insurance as well.
>>
>> Incidentally, there is an organisation called The National
>> Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) which decides if the
>> goverment will pay for various medications. If they say no, then a
>> person may be left to die We often have people who have been denied
>> medication that could save
>> their lives who take NICE to court to try to get the decision
>> overturned. They are not always successful. Remember, these can be
>> those who have paid into the NHS for most of their lives
>
> O, it is quite different here. People do sometimes have alternate
> insurance, but most exist within the system, and most are fairly
> satisfied with it. The big complaints I hear are in very large
> cities where the system is stressed and in the south, where
> everything is more difficult. The systems are regional, and ours in
> Umbria is very good. I've worked in the hospital translating and
> providing macrobiotic food, so I'm not ignorant of it. Special
> services are distributed around the country, so someone from here may
> be sent to another area for certain long term treatments, and they
> accommodate a family member as well as the patient in many cases. I
> have few complaints.

Sounds excellent!!!!!!! Oh I haven't mentioned MRSA and CD. Not many
hospitals *don't* have them. Many people go into hospital with something
small, catch one of these and die!!!!

and no, it is not unusual.

I went private for my knees. I contracted Staph. Aureous. I was ill for
months and had a hickman line to administer my own antibiotics. I was lucky
to be able to do that because it was a new system to allow people to go
home. Otherwise I would have been in hospital for months. When I had the
second knee done, David was in my room three times a day, wiping down
everything with antiseptic spray and wipes.

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:23:44 +1200, Miche > wrote:
>
> >In article >, "Ophelia" >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Omelet wrote:
> >> >
> >> > I have no specific quotes, but I have Internet friends in England that
> >> > have told me of such.
> >>
> >> we have very long waiting lists for the NHS. It is at its best for
> >> emergency or trauma.
> >
> >We only have long waiting lists for some things in New Zealand -- for
> >most things the waiting times are bearable if not actually non-existent.
> >Cancer patients do not wait months for treatment here.
> >
> >Also, I can choose my own GP. If I need a specialist referral I'll get
> >assigned a specialist but if they're not a good fit for me, I can ask to
> >see someone else. (This has actually happened to me, btw.)
>
> uh-oh, more facts instead of tales from a friend of a friend. what
> are you trying to do, muddy the discussion?

Sorry Blake, it won't happen again.

Miche

--
In the monastery office --
Before enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper
After enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper

In article >,
"Dee Dee" > wrote:

> >>
> > it's another right-wing myth that one will be forced to use government
> > services. if you have the money, you can bypass the system under
> > almost any universal care program.
> >
> > your pal,
> > blake
>
> Blake, if anyone disagrees with your politics, religion or whatever, you
> don't seem to know how to listen to anyone. It's like throwing a dog a bone
> and he growls without thinking, parroting the same ole growl.
>
> I have stated this previously, and you don't care to listen. When one has
> medicare, one HAS to have it and cannot bypass the system.

That's not true in NZ either -- everyone has access to the public
system, but private healthcare is available to those who can afford it
and want it.

Miche

--
In the monastery office --
Before enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper
After enlightenment: fetch mail, shuffle paper

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
> Sounds excellent!!!!!!! Oh I haven't mentioned MRSA and CD. Not many
> hospitals *don't* have them. Many people go into hospital with something
> small, catch one of these and die!!!!
>
> and no, it is not unusual.
>
> I went private for my knees. I contracted Staph. Aureous. I was ill for
> months and had a hickman line to administer my own antibiotics. I was
> lucky to be able to do that because it was a new system to allow people to
> go home. Otherwise I would have been in hospital for months. When I had
> the second knee done, David was in my room three times a day, wiping down
> everything with antiseptic spray and wipes.

DH was in the hospital 'for' a staph infection - a bite on his elbow that
got infected. His doctor was excellent. After two hours, I could see that
the nurses were very negligent; slopping IV all over the floor, giving shots
and letting them fall on the floor, disallowing him clean footsies, treating
him with disrespect. There was a couch-bed and shower in the room. The
doctor said I could stay there with him 24/7 until he was discharged. I went
home and got clothes and stayed for 3 days. I learned to do the IV for him
at home for 3 weeks afterwards.

This type of thing happens and has happened even worse in rehab to one of my
in-laws. It is really important that one has a person to watch over them.
When f-i-l was operated on and in rehab, we packed up and stayed in his home
to visit him each day during all visiting hours and stay with him at his
home for 2 weeks afterwards. Even though his health care is excellent, one
of us is with him at doctors' appointments and there are many -- this is a
long trip for DH, but we know how things can go wrong easily.

All the health care insurance in the world doesn't keep one being at the
risk of incompetents - or other things not even thought about.
Your David is wonderful.
Dee Dee

Dee Dee wrote:

> DH was in the hospital 'for' a staph infection - a bite on his elbow
> that got infected. His doctor was excellent. After two hours, I
> could see that the nurses were very negligent; slopping IV all over
> the floor, giving shots and letting them fall on the floor,
> disallowing him clean footsies, treating him with disrespect.

Well I can't say I was treated with disrespect but I was in a private
hospital and they don't dare!


There
> was a couch-bed and shower in the room. The doctor said I could stay
> there with him 24/7 until he was discharged. I went home and got
> clothes and stayed for 3 days. I learned to do the IV for him at
> home for 3 weeks afterwards.

Well done you!

> This type of thing happens and has happened even worse in rehab to
> one of my in-laws. It is really important that one has a person to
> watch over them. When f-i-l was operated on and in rehab, we packed
> up and stayed in his home to visit him each day during all visiting
> hours and stay with him at his home for 2 weeks afterwards. Even
> though his health care is excellent, one of us is with him at
> doctors' appointments and there are many -- this is a long trip for
> DH, but we know how things can go wrong easily.
> All the health care insurance in the world doesn't keep one being at
> the risk of incompetents - or other things not even thought about.
> Your David is wonderful.

Thank you Dee Dee, I think so)

On Sep 1, 8:32 pm, Shadowland > wrote:
> I'm going vegetarian !
>
> I don't feel good after eating meat anymore. I can't tell if it due
> to all the chemicals and what not
> in today's mass produced meats, or if it's because I'm entering
> middle age.
>
> I have a vague polluted feeling after eating meat.
>
> And just why do people need meat anyhow once their done growing ?

As I get older, I find I too have less desire for large quantities of
meat. Now I usually only have around 150 grams of meat a day and it is
usually chicken or pork, red meats seem to make me feel bloated.

Vegetables, that I have in large amounts now, too have their problems
in this day and age, and need to be washed and soaked to lower the
levels of chemicals that even organic vegetables pick up .

Though expensive I have also changed to organic eggs, that do taste
more like eggs. Due to cost and concerns about cholesterol though, I
only have around 3 eggs a week.

To change to an exclusively vegetarian diet, in one's more mature
years I would feel is a matter that needs to be discussed with a
knowledgeable person before hand.

Avoid coke, pop or any soft drinks at any cost , the chemicals will
preserve your body for all eternity before you have finished with it.