On Sep 4, 2:58?pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > (Dolores JUDD) wrote:
>
> > > Hello ,
> > > I would like to know what all the cooks think about the ceramic ranges
> > > compared to the coil type range. I also am confused as to what type of
> > > cookware to use.At this time I have a ciol type range, but soon will
> > > need a new range.
>
> > > Thank you Dee
>
> > I've a GE smooth top that I like a lot. I do home canning on it, too,
> > without problems.
>
> > Rec.food.equipment would be a good place to ask for more opinions.

Why would they know more about modern stoves?!?!?

> Mom canned on ours too with no problem. :-)

So what, any stove can boil water... there's no complex cooking
involved with canning... all you need is a decent timer and hot pads.

There's nothing modern about canning... my mom used to help her mom
can on a wood stove. Back then canning was pretty much a neccesity,
nowadays home canning is exclusively a hobby/pastime. You own that
gigantic expensive freezer, for you to can would be moronic.

Sheldon

"EZ" wrote:
>> Omelet wrote:
> > TEACH your kids and grandkids! Even a regular coil top enameled stove
> > can be damaged by dropped pans and stupidity
>
> That's why I replaced the enameled top with a stainless one. They might dent
> it, but they won't chip it!

Sheesh... buy something twice as expensive to drop pots on... your
head is dented! LOL

Sheldon

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
>> TEACH your kids and grandkids! Even a regular coil top enameled stove
> can be damaged by dropped pans and stupidity. <G>
> --
> Peace, Om


I can attest to having dropped dishes onto coils, having them break. I now
have a vent above the range, which will keep me from putting anything in a
cabinet above the range.

Dee Dee

Hi,

I'm an induction (ceramic) cook top owner and must say it's a thing of
beauty. Fast response, even-temperture and easy to clean (they sell
special cleaner for ceramic tops). It's as good as gas (for heat) with
no open flame issues. In addition, is run on very little energy,
although I couldn't justify the initial cost against energy
consumption; it's just too small to matter.

The draw-backs are the pots & pans you may need to replace and the
initial cost but if you have the money and love to cook....where else
would you put it? Smile.

I'm not a fan of cleaning around the coils so....well, I think you get
the picture.

Cheers,


On Sep 3, 9:58 pm, Omelet > wrote:
> In article >,
> (Dolores JUDD) wrote:
>
> > Hello ,
> > I would like to know what all the cooks think about the ceramic ranges
> > compared to the coil type range. I also am confused as to what type of
> > cookware to use.At this time I have a ciol type range, but soon will
> > need a new range.
>
> > Thank you Dee
>
> I adore mine.
> SO much easier to keep really clean!!!
>
> We spent the money on the double laminate and it's been well spent.
>
> I use any type of cookware on it except you are not supposed to use a
> round bottomed wok on it.
>
> I even use cast iron. I'm just careful. :-)
>
> Had mine now for about or 8 years.
> Still looks like this:
>
> 1998GlasstopStove1.jpghttp://i13.tinypic.com/4c95bhz.jpg
>
> Takes me about 5 minutes maybe to get it pretty depending on what got
> spilled or splattered. I use glass cleaner, scrub/wipe it off, take the
> razor scraper to get any hard deposits off, scrub a second time with
> glass cleaner, then use a little glass top stove polish on a paper towel
> to finish.
>
> As forcookingand heating, it takes slightly longer for the top to cool
> than a coil, but it's no big problem.
>
> It's also handy dandy as extra counter/prep space. :-)
> --
> Peace, Om
>
> Remove _ to validate e-mails.
>
> "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

Omelet wrote:
>
> I grew up with a gas stove and I do agree that they have their
> advantages when it comes to heat control, but I have this paranoia about
> a flammable liquid being pumped into my home. I specified all electric
> when I was looking for a house. ;-)

Ridiculous...far, FAR more houses are destoyed from fires due to
faulty electric wiring than gas explosions. Far more people are
electricuted by electric stoves than blown up by gas stoves. Actually
electricution by electric cook stoves at home is still pretty
common... gas stove explosions are very rare these days. With propane
a special valve is installed outside the structure that instantly
senses any extraordinary gas flow and immediately closes... very much
like a GFI. besides cooking I heat with propane, the propane company
automatically installs the special valve and they know how to set it
according to particular appliance useages.

Your electric stove has to rely on the ordinary breaker in your
distribution box, it won't open the circuit even if you roast to a
crisp.
At one time gas stoves weren't very safe but modern gas stoves have
many more safety features than electric stoves. Your fear of gas
cooking is a hold over from the olden days of stoves you needed to
light with a match and then with pilot lights, those no longer exist.

Now I don't believe that gas clothes dryers are very safe, if they
would come up with a better way to deal with clothes dryer lint I
would seriously consider switching to gas... but even though a gas
dryer costs about four times less to operate than electirc I'd have to
think about that because I only dry like two small loads a week, and
often less as I hang a lot of clothes outdoors to dry, and even in
winter I hang clothes in the basement... I typically only dry stuff
half way especially towels to fluff them up and finish by line
drying. I cook a lot more than I dry clothes.

Now oil home heating is more dangerous than gas and electric, but in a
different way, oil is very dirty and causes respiratory disease...
anyone who heats their home with oil pretty much may as well smoke
tobacco.... heating with kerosene, coal, and wood is just as bad...
anyone who claims otherwise wouldn't be recommending carbon monoxide
detectors, and in many municipalities it's the law... if there's
carbon monixide leakage into living spaces so is there all the other
products of combustion. Gas is not perfect but it's much cleaner
burning than oil, in fact there's another savings, gas furnaces need
no regular cleanings and tuneups

Sheldon

Omelet wrote:
> Sheldon > wrote:
> > With gas stoves that have pizeoelectric ignition you can still light
> > the top burners with a match when the electric goes off. With
> > electric stoves you're totally out of business. And just because
> > there is no natural gas available there is no reason you can't have
> > gas cooking with propane.
>
> Or wood...

Why bother with a stove at all, cook on the hearth, or better yet
outdoors over a campfire, you can impale wooly mammoth ribeye on a
pointy stick... I bet no one needs to teach Om Flintstone how to twirl
meat. hehe

Sheldon Rubble

In article > ,
"Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:

> <sf> wrote in message ...
> > On Mon, 03 Sep 2007 20:58:47 -0500, Omelet >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>I use any type of cookware on it except you are not supposed to use a
> >>round bottomed wok on it.
> >
> > Why? It seems like if you use a ring, it should be ok.
> >
>
> Aside from the fact it will not heat well with only a small contact point,
> you are putting a lot of pressure in one spot.

Yes.

It risks cracking the stove top.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article .com>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> On Sep 4, 11:30?am, Karen AKA Kajikit > wrote:
> > On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:44:00 -0400, (Dolores JUDD)
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Hello ,
> > >I would like to know what all the cooks think about the ceramic ranges
> > >compared to the coil type range. I also am confused as to what type of
> > >cookware to use.At this time I have a ciol type range, but soon will
> > >need a new range.
> >
> > Our landlord replaced our coil electric stove with a ceramic one... I
> > thought I'd hate it but they're much improved from a few decades ago!
> > (my aunt had one of the old glass ones, and it chipped, scratched, and
> > the paint wore off...) After six months I really like the ceramic
> > stove it's very easy to clean and I like that you can sit hot stuff
> > like oven trays on it without worrying about balancing them... the
> > only negative is how long the plates hold the heat. It takes about
> > half an hour to cool down all the way after you switch it off, so it's
> > not very safe around children (there's a little red light that says
> > 'I'm hot' but kids might not notice it.)
>
> Cats neither.
>
> With my gas stove the cast iron grates stay hot a good while too but
> I'm in the habit of either leaving the pot, it's lid, or placing an
> empty pot that I leave on the stove at all times.
>
> I'm not comfortable with any form of electric stove, not since my
> uncle's house burned to the ground because they were in the habit of
> using the stove top as sort of a catch all table. One evening after
> dinner the entire family left for a movie, someone must have forgot to
> turn off a burner and someone tossed a magazine on the stove just as
> they were leaving. They admitted to doing this previously but always
> when home, someone would see/smell the smoke and the smoke detector
> would go off.

Yeesh! I do use it as extra prep space, but NOT as a catch all!
That's ignorant, and sloppy!
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article .com>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> And the main reason your mom's machine lasted 25 years is because even
> though they didn't have all the high tech electronics back then
> everything else was built to last...

I can't argue with that point. ;-)
My Hobart 'frige is 31 years old now. Granted, I have had to replace the
compressor (2 years ago) but our big GE chest freezer is also that old
and has never (knocks on wood!) needed any repair at all.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
"Dee Dee" > wrote:

> "Omelet" > wrote in message
> news
> >> TEACH your kids and grandkids! Even a regular coil top enameled stove
> > can be damaged by dropped pans and stupidity. <G>
> > --
> > Peace, Om
>
>
> I can attest to having dropped dishes onto coils, having them break. I now
> have a vent above the range, which will keep me from putting anything in a
> cabinet above the range.
>
> Dee Dee

I have a vent and a cabinet. We just put seldom used pans (like the egg
poacher) in that cabinet.
--
Peace, Om

Remove _ to validate e-mails.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

In article . com>, Sheldon > wrote:
>Omelet wrote:
>> I grew up with a gas stove and I do agree that they have their
>> advantages when it comes to heat control, but I have this paranoia about
>> a flammable liquid being pumped into my home. I specified all electric
>> when I was looking for a house. ;-)
>
>Ridiculous...far, FAR more houses are destoyed from fires due to
>faulty electric wiring than gas explosions. Far more people are

Well, in the modern age just about every house has electricity
connected, but not all have gas.

>electricuted by electric stoves than blown up by gas stoves. Actually
>electricution by electric cook stoves at home is still pretty
>common... gas stove explosions are very rare these days. With propane
>a special valve is installed outside the structure that instantly
>senses any extraordinary gas flow and immediately closes... very much
>like a GFI. besides cooking I heat with propane, the propane company
>automatically installs the special valve and they know how to set it
>according to particular appliance useages.
[snip]

My main concern with gas is the open flame. It seems to me much more
likely to cause a fire in an accident with flammable materials (oil,
paper, curtains, ...) than a hot electric element.

Of course, a red hot element would go close to being like an open
flame, but for a significant proportion of cooking time you wouldn't
need that much heat, would you?

Though a hot element (not red hot) may eventually cause charring and a
subsequent fire, I would expect that to take quite a bit longer, thus
giving one time to recover the situation without too much damage.

Having said all that, I would be happy to be convinced otherwise
because I think 'cooking with gas' isn't just an empty phrase. So I
would be very happy to see data suggesting my caution is unnecessary!

Cheers, Phred.

--
LID

"Phred" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
> Though a hot element (not red hot) may eventually cause charring and a
> subsequent fire, I would expect that to take quite a bit longer, thus
> giving one time to recover the situation without too much damage.

A very hot electric element can look like it's cold. I have set things on
fire with them. I don't willingly cook on electric elements of any kind,
although I used one of those glass ones last Sunday. I don't cook by
nembers for a start. I like instant response. I like to SEE what
temperature I've got. I have a heavy duty, sealed burner gas cooktop with
an electric conventional/fan option oven. The grids are heavy cast iron,
which means I can shuffle, shake and otherwise manipulate pots and pans.
It's stainless steel, so it cleans up easily and I do not use any products
to clean it. The only thing I would change would be to have it bigger, but
the kitchen won't take a bigger cooker.

The glass cooker I used did mop up fast, but it still looked crappy until I
moistened it again and rubbed it with a towel. There was just too much
guess work using it. Not a hit.


--
http://www.judithgreenwood.com

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:03:07 -0500, Omelet >
wrote:

>In article .com>,
> Sheldon > wrote:
>
>> And the main reason your mom's machine lasted 25 years is because even
>> though they didn't have all the high tech electronics back then
>> everything else was built to last...
>
>I can't argue with that point. ;-)
>My Hobart 'frige is 31 years old now. Granted, I have had to replace the
>compressor (2 years ago) but our big GE chest freezer is also that old
>and has never (knocks on wood!) needed any repair at all.

Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.

Nathalie in Switzerland

"Nathalie Chiva" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:03:07 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>>In article .com>,
>> Sheldon > wrote:
>>
>>> And the main reason your mom's machine lasted 25 years is because even
>>> though they didn't have all the high tech electronics back then
>>> everything else was built to last...
>>
>>I can't argue with that point. ;-)
>>My Hobart 'frige is 31 years old now. Granted, I have had to replace the
>>compressor (2 years ago) but our big GE chest freezer is also that old
>>and has never (knocks on wood!) needed any repair at all.
>
> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland

Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased about
the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.

People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking on
just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
America --

Dee Dee

Dee Dee wrote:

>
> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased about
> the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>
> People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking on
> just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
> America --
>
> Dee Dee
>
>
I live in the US and there are lots of single occupant drivers of
trucks driven as a fashion statement wasting millions of gallons of
gasoline every day for which we compensate by grinding up corn to make
ethanol which has significantly increased the price of anything using
the corn such as poultry, milk etc. Anyone observing this could rightly
shake their head.

"Dee Dee" > wrote

> "Nathalie Chiva" > wrote

>> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
>> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
>> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
>> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.

> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
> about the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.

I don't know where Nathalie got that idea. As you say there are big
yellow stickers on all large appliances with the energy rating. I get
a rebate from my local utilities for picking high energy star rated
furnaces/air conditioners. In some years you get a credit on your taxes
for making energy efficient improvements to your home. Etc etc etc.

> People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking
> on just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
> America --

Unfortunately, that's true.

nancy

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:23:16 -0400, "Nancy Young" >
wrote:

>
>"Dee Dee" > wrote
>
>> "Nathalie Chiva" > wrote
>
>>> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
>>> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
>>> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
>>> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.
>
>> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
>> about the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>
>I don't know where Nathalie got that idea.

From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to Europeans cars,
from the widespread use of air conditioning (so cold that you often
have to wear a jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even when
it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.

Nathalie in Switzerland

"Nathalie Chiva" > wrote

> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:23:16 -0400, "Nancy Young" >
> wrote:

>>"Dee Dee" > wrote
>>
>>> "Nathalie Chiva" > wrote
>>
>>>> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
>>>> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
>>>> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
>>>> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.
>>
>>> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
>>> about the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>>
>>I don't know where Nathalie got that idea.
>
> From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to Europeans cars,
> from the widespread use of air conditioning (so cold that you often
> have to wear a jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even when
> it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.

Okay, even though I've driven a European car or two and they
use as much oil as any of my other cars, maybe you mean those
tiny cars. Regardless, I understand what you're saying, but I think
maybe you said this before? that our appliances are energy hogs.
That the US doesn't care about energy efficient appliances, and that's
not true.

Yes, I've been in places where the air conditioning is freezing cold,
but most of the time it's not that cold. Certainly not in my house.

I hope I didn't offend you, if I did I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

nancy

Peter A wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> Okay, even though I've driven a European car or two and they
>> use as much oil as any of my other cars, maybe you mean those
>> tiny cars. Regardless, I understand what you're saying, but I think
>> maybe you said this before? that our appliances are energy hogs.
>> That the US doesn't care about energy efficient appliances, and
>> that's not true.
>>
>> Yes, I've been in places where the air conditioning is freezing cold,
>> but most of the time it's not that cold. Certainly not in my house.
>>
>
> Per capita energy consumption, kg of oil equivalent, year 2003
>
> US: 7794
> Spain 3228
> United Kingdom 3918
> Germany 4203
> France 4518
> Italy 3127
> Belgium 5703
> Japan 4040
> Europe as a whole 3698
>
> Case closed.

Where did these stats come from Peter?

George wrote:

> Dee Dee wrote:
>
> >
> > Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
about
> > the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
> >
> > People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s
thinking on
> > just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
> > America --
> >
> > Dee Dee
> >
> >
> I live in the US and there are lots of single occupant drivers of
> trucks driven as a fashion statement wasting millions of gallons of
> gasoline every day for which we compensate by grinding up corn to make
> ethanol which has significantly increased the price of anything using
> the corn such as poultry, milk etc. Anyone observing this could rightly
> shake their head.


In the above statement you could substitute "Germany" for "US", and
"expensive Mercedes/Porsches/Audis..." for "trucks"...and in Germany there
is no or a very high speed limit donchyaknow...

Anyone observing this (in Germany) could rightly shake their head...

:-)

Did you know that many urban Chinese have abandoned bikes and are buying
shiny new cars, especially Buicks, Buicks are the best - selling "foreign"
brand in China. Oh those wasteful Chinese...!!!

--
Best
Greg

Ophelia wrote:

> Peter A wrote:
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >> Okay, even though I've driven a European car or two and they
> >> use as much oil as any of my other cars, maybe you mean those
> >> tiny cars. Regardless, I understand what you're saying, but I think
> >> maybe you said this before? that our appliances are energy hogs.
> >> That the US doesn't care about energy efficient appliances, and
> >> that's not true.
> >>
> >> Yes, I've been in places where the air conditioning is freezing cold,
> >> but most of the time it's not that cold. Certainly not in my house.
> >>
> >
> > Per capita energy consumption, kg of oil equivalent, year 2003
> >
> > US: 7794
> > Spain 3228
> > United Kingdom 3918
> > Germany 4203
> > France 4518
> > Italy 3127
> > Belgium 5703
> > Japan 4040
> > Europe as a whole 3698
> >
> > Case closed.
>
> Where did these stats come from Peter?


Don't mind Peter, he's just being belligerent...

:-)

Besides the raw data he presents, you have to factor in things like physical
size of the nation, transportation modes, population, per capita
income/output, climate etc...

Frex, air con is widely used in places like Texas, the US South, etc. Many
European locales don't have much of a need for air con ('though this is
changing). Buying an air con unit in the UK is a rather expensive
proposition. Here in the states you can pick up a simple window unit for
less than $100.00, if you could find something similar in the UK it would
cost many times that. Cheap air con is simply not a part of everyday life
in the UK. Here it is, it's cheap so people of course buy it...air con in
the US was once an expensive luxury, now most everybody can enjoy it to some
extent, even if they have a modest income.

We don't use more energy because one day we just woke up and said, "Hey,
let's waste energy!". We use the energy because in our particular situation
we *need* it...we aren't the biggest economy in the world for nothing, you
know.

:-)

--
Best
Greg

"George" > wrote in message
. ..
> Dee Dee wrote:
>
>>
>> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
>> about the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>>
>> People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking
>> on just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
>> America --
>>
>> Dee Dee
>>
>>
> I live in the US and there are lots of single occupant drivers of trucks
> driven as a fashion statement wasting millions of gallons of gasoline
> every day for which we compensate by grinding up corn to make ethanol
> which has significantly increased the price of anything using the corn
> such as poultry, milk etc. Anyone observing this could rightly shake their
> head.


That's a government decision. I didn't vote for it.

Yes, I rightly shake my head, too. But I try not to make a blanket
statement about all Russians, all Germans, etc. But it seems U.S. is fair
game for just about everyone to discuss with derision.

Dee Dee

"Nathalie Chiva" > wrote in message
>
> From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to Europeans cars,
> from the widespread use of air conditioning (so cold that you often
> have to wear a jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even when
> it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland

Nathalie you might like to know that perhaps things changed a wee bit this
summer. I usually carry a jacket just to go inside to a restaurant, but
this year, it has been carried in vain.

The "average" people here haven't the money to pay for extra heat, extra
air-conditioning and all those wasteful things you think is happening.

Most people here are average.
Dee Dee

Giusi wrote:
> The glass cooker I used did mop up fast, but it still looked crappy until I
> moistened it again and rubbed it with a towel. There was just too much
> guess work using it. Not a hit.


I move heaven and earth to avoid scratching my smooth top, yet I've
still managed to make small scratches caused by I don't know what. To
keep it looking good, it needs to be cleaned up immediately, even while
cooking is in progress. And with all precautions taken to prevent
scorching and burned on food, it still looks kinda crappy until its been
scrubbed and *polished* after use.

Sheldon mentioned that the top stays hot for a while, too hot for cats.
My vexation is that once polished up the cat leaves footprints on it.
They can't do that on a porcelain gas rangetop, now can they!

"Dee Dee" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nathalie Chiva" > wrote in
> message
>>
>> From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to Europeans cars,
>> from the widespread use of air conditioning (so cold that you often
>> have to wear a jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even when
>> it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.
>>
>> Nathalie in Switzerland
>
> Nathalie you might like to know that perhaps things changed a wee bit this
> summer. I usually carry a jacket just to go inside to a restaurant, but
> this year, it has been carried in vain.
>
> The "average" people here haven't the money to pay for extra heat, extra
> air-conditioning and all those wasteful things you think is happening.
>
> Most people here are average.
> Dee Dee
>
>
I made a mistake, showing my ignorance; this sentence is entirely wrong:
"Most' people here are average." That could not be the case. Average is
average; average can never represent 'most.'
Well, you know what I mean - hopefully.;-)

Dee Dee

Dee wrote on Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:42:26 -0400:


DD> "Dee Dee" > wrote in message
DD> ...
??>>
??>> "Nathalie Chiva"
??>> > wrote in
??>> message
??>>>
??>>> From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to
??>>> Europeans cars, from the widespread use of air
??>>> conditioning (so cold that you often have to wear a
??>>> jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even
??>>> when it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.
??>>>
??>>> Nathalie in Switzerland
??>>
??>> Nathalie you might like to know that perhaps things
??>> changed a wee bit this summer. I usually carry a jacket
??>> just to go inside to a restaurant, but this year, it has
??>> been carried in vain.
??>>
??>> The "average" people here haven't the money to pay for
??>> extra heat, extra air-conditioning and all those wasteful
??>> things you think is happening.
??>>
??>> Most people here are average.
??>> Dee Dee
??>>
DD> I made a mistake, showing my ignorance; this sentence is
DD> entirely wrong: "Most' people here are average." That
could not
DD> be the case. Average is average; average can never
DD> represent 'most.' Well, you know what I mean -
DD> hopefully.;-)

Didn't someone say that half the medical schools in the US are
below average? Not precisely true I guess unless one says "below
the median" but near enough!

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Gregory Morrow wrote:
> Ophelia wrote:
>
>> Peter A wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> says...
>>>> Okay, even though I've driven a European car or two and they
>>>> use as much oil as any of my other cars, maybe you mean those
>>>> tiny cars. Regardless, I understand what you're saying, but I
>>>> think maybe you said this before? that our appliances are energy
>>>> hogs. That the US doesn't care about energy efficient appliances,
>>>> and that's not true.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I've been in places where the air conditioning is freezing
>>>> cold, but most of the time it's not that cold. Certainly not in
>>>> my house.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Per capita energy consumption, kg of oil equivalent, year 2003
>>>
>>> US: 7794
>>> Spain 3228
>>> United Kingdom 3918
>>> Germany 4203
>>> France 4518
>>> Italy 3127
>>> Belgium 5703
>>> Japan 4040
>>> Europe as a whole 3698
>>>
>>> Case closed.
>>
>> Where did these stats come from Peter?
>
>
> Don't mind Peter, he's just being belligerent...

I don't mind, I am just interested in where the data came from. I am not
contesting it at all, I just prefer to go to the root of statistics

>
> :-)
>
> Besides the raw data he presents, you have to factor in things like
> physical size of the nation, transportation modes, population, per
> capita income/output, climate etc...
>
> Frex, air con is widely used in places like Texas, the US South, etc.
> Many European locales don't have much of a need for air con ('though
> this is changing). Buying an air con unit in the UK is a rather
> expensive proposition. Here in the states you can pick up a simple
> window unit for less than $100.00, if you could find something
> similar in the UK it would cost many times that. Cheap air con is
> simply not a part of everyday life in the UK. Here it is, it's cheap
> so people of course buy it...air con in the US was once an expensive
> luxury, now most everybody can enjoy it to some extent, even if they
> have a modest income.
>
> We don't use more energy because one day we just woke up and said,
> "Hey, let's waste energy!". We use the energy because in our
> particular situation we *need* it...we aren't the biggest economy in
> the world for nothing, you know.

Thanks Greg

On Sep 5, 10:44?am, Nathalie Chiva
> wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:23:16 -0400, "Nancy Young" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >"Dee Dee" > wrote
>
> >> "Nathalie Chiva" > wrote
>
> >>> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
> >>> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
> >>> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
> >>> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.
>
> >> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
> >> about the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>
> >I don't know where Nathalie got that idea.
>
> From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to Europeans cars,

Anticipated oil consumption is not actual consumption.. the ratings
given to motor vehicles is only the amount a vehicle will consume if
it's used... sticker values mean little to nothing. I know many folks
who have an SUV but clock many more miles on there compact, many even
as much as possible ride motor cycles.. I don't know of anyone who
whenever the conditions permit (mostly weather) will choose the S U V
over the H A W G.

> from the widespread use of air conditioning (so cold that you often
> have to wear a jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even when
> it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.

The vast majority of US households don't have central air, most have
no air condioners at all, and of those who do most are very frugal
regarding its use. My neighbor has no ac, they live in their basement
during heat waves, most rural areas the same. In the US it's mostly
businesses that have AC, but many bodies benefit simultaneously. The
same is true regarding heating, most residenses are very frugal, even
businesses keep the thermostats set rather low in winter. Better than
half my neighbors have no central heating system, they use wood
stoves.

Actually the main difference is that the European division of wealth
is far more one sided than in the US, not much different than many
third world countries... a far greater proportion in the US can afford
more luxuries.. we eat better too, MUCH better... because a MUCH
smaller proportion of our income is needed to feed ourselves. We work
harder and longer too... and so we deserve a larger share than you.

But I have to give yoose Euros extra points in on area, us wasteful
Americans sure use a heckova lot more soap and hot water bathing than
yoose. Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know, yoose save on TP too. Most of
yoose don't even have indoor plumbing, your lavatory is a hole in the
floor (with two tiles showing yoose dummies how to set yer feet to
squat), an indoor outhouse is what most of yoose use... and hafta wipe
yer crotch with crepe paper, streeeetch it out and use both sides!

Sheldon Beenthere

In article om>,
Sheldon > wrote:

> Omelet wrote:
> > Sheldon > wrote:
> > > With gas stoves that have pizeoelectric ignition you can still light
> > > the top burners with a match when the electric goes off. With
> > > electric stoves you're totally out of business. And just because
> > > there is no natural gas available there is no reason you can't have
> > > gas cooking with propane.
> >
> > Or wood...
>
> Why bother with a stove at all, cook on the hearth, or better yet
> outdoors over a campfire, you can impale wooly mammoth ribeye on a
> pointy stick... I bet no one needs to teach Om Flintstone how to twirl
> meat. hehe
>
> Sheldon Rubble

Point me the way oh Troglodyte mine...
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Sheldon wrote:
> But I have to give yoose Euros extra points in on area, us wasteful
> Americans sure use a heckova lot more soap and hot water bathing than
> yoose. Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know, yoose save on TP too. Most of
> yoose don't even have indoor plumbing, your lavatory is a hole in the
> floor (with two tiles showing yoose dummies how to set yer feet to
> squat), an indoor outhouse is what most of yoose use... and hafta wipe
> yer crotch with crepe paper, streeeetch it out and use both sides!

I don't know where you have been but it wasn't UK.

We shower twice a day and not only do we have lavatories but we have a
bidet too!!

I notice when you sneer at us you use very low languages. Perhaps this is
what defines you?

In article >,
Nathalie Chiva > wrote:

> On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:03:07 -0500, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >In article .com>,
> > Sheldon > wrote:
> >
> >> And the main reason your mom's machine lasted 25 years is because even
> >> though they didn't have all the high tech electronics back then
> >> everything else was built to last...
> >
> >I can't argue with that point. ;-)
> >My Hobart 'frige is 31 years old now. Granted, I have had to replace the
> >compressor (2 years ago) but our big GE chest freezer is also that old
> >and has never (knocks on wood!) needed any repair at all.
>
> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland

Has not seemed to make a significant increase in the Utility bill since
we installed it....
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"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch" -- Jack Nicholson

> People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking on
> just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
> America --

Accurate. <G>
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Peace, Om

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In article >,
George > wrote:

> Dee Dee wrote:
>
> >
> > Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
> > about
> > the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
> >
> > People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking
> > on
> > just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
> > America --
> >
> > Dee Dee
> >
> >
> I live in the US and there are lots of single occupant drivers of
> trucks driven as a fashion statement wasting millions of gallons of
> gasoline every day for which we compensate by grinding up corn to make
> ethanol which has significantly increased the price of anything using
> the corn such as poultry, milk etc. Anyone observing this could rightly
> shake their head.

One has to ask why the price of diesel is higher than Regular gas.
It's a cheap by-product to be burned by cheap engines.

Methinks someone is profiteering off of us, yet again.

And it drives up the price of food due to deliver costs.
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Omelet wrote:
> In article >,
> George > wrote:
>
>> Dee Dee wrote:
>>
>>> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
>>> about
>>> the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>>>
>>> People always are making blanket statements regarding the U.S.'s thinking
>>> on
>>> just about everything and offering their opinions about the pysche of
>>> America --
>>>
>>> Dee Dee
>>>
>>>
>> I live in the US and there are lots of single occupant drivers of
>> trucks driven as a fashion statement wasting millions of gallons of
>> gasoline every day for which we compensate by grinding up corn to make
>> ethanol which has significantly increased the price of anything using
>> the corn such as poultry, milk etc. Anyone observing this could rightly
>> shake their head.
>
> One has to ask why the price of diesel is higher than Regular gas.
> It's a cheap by-product to be burned by cheap engines.

Diesel engines are more expensive to produce than gasoline engines.
Diesel fuel is more expensive because there have been a number of staged
requirements that have gone into effect to reduce emissions mostly
related to the amount of sulfur in the fuel. It costs more to remove the
sulfur and since sulfur also performs other functions more expensive
additives need to be added to compensate.

>
> Methinks someone is profiteering off of us, yet again.
>
> And it drives up the price of food due to deliver costs.

Sheldon wrote:

>
> Sheldon Beenthere
>

But things have changed somewhat since WWII. It was a little bit rough
back then with the war and all...

George wrote on Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:08:38 -0400:

G> Omelet wrote:
??>> One has to ask why the price of diesel is higher than
??>> Regular gas. It's a cheap by-product to be burned by cheap
??>> engines.

G> Diesel engines are more expensive to produce than gasoline
G> engines. Diesel fuel is more expensive because there have
G> been a number of staged requirements that have gone into
G> effect to reduce emissions mostly related to the amount of
G> sulfur in the fuel. It costs more to remove the sulfur and
G> since sulfur also performs other functions more expensive
G> additives need to be added to compensate.

??>> Methinks someone is profiteering off of us, yet again.
??>>
??>> And it drives up the price of food due to deliver costs.

Diesel fuel was *less* expensive than regular gas at some places
in Rockville, MD last week! In some European countries it is
much less expensive because taxes on it are less than on regular
gas. I seem to remember that this was the case in Germany and
France tho' I only noticed it much on the one occasion where I
rented a diesel car. This was a medium-sized Citroen and it
performed quite adequately.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In article <z5BDi.1602$6T5.1494@trnddc06>,
"James Silverton" > wrote:

> Didn't someone say that half the medical schools in the US are
> below average? Not precisely true I guess unless one says "below
> the median" but near enough!
>
> James Silverton

But the graduates are still called "Dr.".!!!
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In article >,
Pennyaline > wrote:

> Giusi wrote:
> > The glass cooker I used did mop up fast, but it still looked crappy until I
> > moistened it again and rubbed it with a towel. There was just too much
> > guess work using it. Not a hit.
>
>
> I move heaven and earth to avoid scratching my smooth top, yet I've
> still managed to make small scratches caused by I don't know what. To
> keep it looking good, it needs to be cleaned up immediately, even while
> cooking is in progress. And with all precautions taken to prevent
> scorching and burned on food, it still looks kinda crappy until its been
> scrubbed and *polished* after use.
>
> Sheldon mentioned that the top stays hot for a while, too hot for cats.
> My vexation is that once polished up the cat leaves footprints on it.
> They can't do that on a porcelain gas rangetop, now can they!

I've posted pics of mine with no shame. Those are unedited.

What color did you get?
--
Peace, Om

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In article >,
George > wrote:

> > One has to ask why the price of diesel is higher than Regular gas.
> > It's a cheap by-product to be burned by cheap engines.
>
> Diesel engines are more expensive to produce than gasoline engines.
> Diesel fuel is more expensive because there have been a number of staged
> requirements that have gone into effect to reduce emissions mostly
> related to the amount of sulfur in the fuel. It costs more to remove the
> sulfur and since sulfur also performs other functions more expensive
> additives need to be added to compensate.

So then why are there so many of them for delivering goods?

That seems kinda stupid.
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On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:49:47 -0400, "Nancy Young" >
wrote:

>
>"Nathalie Chiva" > wrote
>
>> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:23:16 -0400, "Nancy Young" >
>> wrote:
>
>>>"Dee Dee" > wrote
>>>
>>>> "Nathalie Chiva" > wrote
>>>
>>>>> Sure, but isn't it a huge electricity consumer? Energy consumption is
>>>>> about the most significant difference between old refrigerators and
>>>>> new ones - new ones use a fraction of what the old ones use. And I
>>>>> know that in the US it's not deemed important, but that's a shame :-(.
>>>
>>>> Here in the US, there are notices on every product that I've purchased
>>>> about the energy consumption. It's always been a consideration to me.
>>>
>>>I don't know where Nathalie got that idea.
>>
>> From the amount of oil that US cars use compared to Europeans cars,
>> from the widespread use of air conditioning (so cold that you often
>> have to wear a jacket even if it's scalding hot outside...), even when
>> it's not necessary, and all that sort of thing.
>
>Okay, even though I've driven a European car or two and they
>use as much oil as any of my other cars, maybe you mean those
>tiny cars. Regardless, I understand what you're saying, but I think
>maybe you said this before? that our appliances are energy hogs.
>That the US doesn't care about energy efficient appliances, and that's
>not true.

OK, but "tiny" cars are pretty much half of all the cars here... and I
know that in the US some states are very forward and promote
economizing energy (California comes to mind), but you also have Bush
and his promises that petrol prices will never go up (and they're half
what we pay here...)

>Yes, I've been in places where the air conditioning is freezing cold,
>but most of the time it's not that cold. Certainly not in my house.

But you do have air conditioning in your house. I've been to Spain and
to Italy (where it can be really hot in summer, Swizterland doesn't
count ;-)) and there's no air conditioning in flats and private
houses.

>I hope I didn't offend you, if I did I'm sorry, I didn't mean to.

Oh no you didn't, I love debating :-)

Nathalie in Switzerland