On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
> America's Day Of
> Reckoning Is At Hand
> By Paul Craig Roberts
> 11-27-7
>
> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
> message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we have
> known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him. These
> two writers of different political persuasions arrive at America's
> demise from different directions.
>
> Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
> apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the Bush
> administration and committed American blood, energy, and money to
> aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East, while
> permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by immigrants and
> exporting the jobs that had made the US an opportunity society. War
> and offshoring have taken a savage economic toll while open borders
> and diversity have created social and political division.
>
> In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot,
> Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of freedoms.
> She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to close open
> societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial law is only a
> declaration away.
>
> The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
> military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the "war
> on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
> legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>
> Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
> and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both US
> citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due process, and
> access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush legislation
> establishing military tribunals, the procedures of which permit people
> to be condemned to death on the basis of secret evidence, hearsay, and
> confessions extracted by torture. Nothing of the like has ever been
> seen before in the US.
>
> The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
> actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that the
> Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration actually
> possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime might have
> succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution. Conviction of the
> detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a "fascist expansion."
> Following the exercise of its new powers, the regime could have
> broadened the definition of terrorist to include the regime's critics,
> thus pulling citizens in general into tribunals devoid of civil
> liberty protections.
>
> It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11 attack,
> whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive toward tyranny
> has been blunted, because the vast majority of detainees turned out to
> be hapless individuals sold into American captivity by warlords
> responding to the bounty the US paid for "terrorists." Any unprotected
> individual was vulnerable to being captured by Afghan and Pakistani
> warlords and sold as a "terrorist." The Americans needed to show
> results, and the Bush regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the
> fear its propaganda had generated.
>
> In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would not
> have mattered as the judicial system produced the results demanded by
> the tyrants. However, the US military had not been sufficiently
> corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to succeed.
> Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham, were able to
> discern that the US government had no information on the detainees and
> used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the a priori
> determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy combatant.
> Military officers made these revelations known to real courts before
> the tribunal process could establish itself.
>
> CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
> Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
> Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had hundreds of
> dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another Bush
> administration lie.
>
> Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative agenda is
> low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have proven to be
> feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward war and tyranny. It
> remains to be seen whether the regime has sufficient credibility or
> audacity to initiate war with Iran or a false flag attack that would
> revive the fascist expansion of which Naomi Wolf warns.
>
> The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
> unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is deeply
> in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has lost 60 per
> cent of its value against other tradable currencies, and its reserve
> currency status, the basis of American power, is in doubt. The US has
> lost millions of middle class jobs which have been replaced with low
> paid domestic service jobs. Except for the very rich, Americans have
> experienced no gains in real income in the 21st century. As the
> ladders of upward mobility are dismantled and the middle class
> struggles and fails, America is left with a few rich and many poor.
> America's reputation and credibility are damaged perhaps beyond
> repair. Congress and the press have enabled the executive branch's
> disregard of the Constitution and civil liberty. The US is mired in
> two lost wars which are pushing Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan
> into deepening political crises.
>
> As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>
> Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
> Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution

America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
barely holding up the carcass
of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
EuroAmerican
Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
riots. Welcome them.

greg

http://www.vdare.com/ V-Dare

On Nov 29, 6:45 pm, greg3347 > wrote:
> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>
>
>
> > America's Day Of
> > Reckoning Is At Hand
> > By Paul Craig Roberts
> > 11-27-7
>
> >http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> > Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
> > message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we have
> > known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him. These
> > two writers of different political persuasions arrive at America's
> > demise from different directions.
>
> > Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
> > apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the Bush
> > administration and committed American blood, energy, and money to
> > aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East, while
> > permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by immigrants and
> > exporting the jobs that had made the US an opportunity society. War
> > and offshoring have taken a savage economic toll while open borders
> > and diversity have created social and political division.
>
> > In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot,
> > Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of freedoms.
> > She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to close open
> > societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial law is only a
> > declaration away.
>
> > The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
> > military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the "war
> > on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
> > legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>
> > Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
> > and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both US
> > citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due process, and
> > access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush legislation
> > establishing military tribunals, the procedures of which permit people
> > to be condemned to death on the basis of secret evidence, hearsay, and
> > confessions extracted by torture. Nothing of the like has ever been
> > seen before in the US.
>
> > The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
> > actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that the
> > Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration actually
> > possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime might have
> > succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution. Conviction of the
> > detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a "fascist expansion."
> > Following the exercise of its new powers, the regime could have
> > broadened the definition of terrorist to include the regime's critics,
> > thus pulling citizens in general into tribunals devoid of civil
> > liberty protections.
>
> > It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11 attack,
> > whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive toward tyranny
> > has been blunted, because the vast majority of detainees turned out to
> > be hapless individuals sold into American captivity by warlords
> > responding to the bounty the US paid for "terrorists." Any unprotected
> > individual was vulnerable to being captured by Afghan and Pakistani
> > warlords and sold as a "terrorist." The Americans needed to show
> > results, and the Bush regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the
> > fear its propaganda had generated.
>
> > In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would not
> > have mattered as the judicial system produced the results demanded by
> > the tyrants. However, the US military had not been sufficiently
> > corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to succeed.
> > Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham, were able to
> > discern that the US government had no information on the detainees and
> > used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the a priori
> > determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy combatant.
> > Military officers made these revelations known to real courts before
> > the tribunal process could establish itself.
>
> > CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
> > Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
> > Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had hundreds of
> > dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another Bush
> > administration lie.
>
> > Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative agenda is
> > low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have proven to be
> > feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward war and tyranny. It
> > remains to be seen whether the regime has sufficient credibility or
> > audacity to initiate war with Iran or a false flag attack that would
> > revive the fascist expansion of which Naomi Wolf warns.
>
> > The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
> > unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is deeply
> > in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has lost 60 per
> > cent of its value against other tradable currencies, and its reserve
> > currency status, the basis of American power, is in doubt. The US has
> > lost millions of middle class jobs which have been replaced with low
> > paid domestic service jobs. Except for the very rich, Americans have
> > experienced no gains in real income in the 21st century. As the
> > ladders of upward mobility are dismantled and the middle class
> > struggles and fails, America is left with a few rich and many poor.
> > America's reputation and credibility are damaged perhaps beyond
> > repair. Congress and the press have enabled the executive branch's
> > disregard of the Constitution and civil liberty. The US is mired in
> > two lost wars which are pushing Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan
> > into deepening political crises.
>
> > As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>
> > Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
> > Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution
>
> America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
> barely holding up the carcass
> of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
> EuroAmerican
> Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
> riots. Welcome them.
>
> greg
>
> http://www.vdare.com/ V-Dare

the dow would still be over valued at 8,500. 3000-5000, maybe. but, a
poor economy with no intervention for the true creators of wealth,
with no way for those creators to innovate competing with serfs, and
those innovators will put money to better use, instead money is thrown
at rent seekers, this may well feed on itself, and the dow at 5000 may
look high.

"greg3347" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>> America's Day Of
>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>> 11-27-7
>>
>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>>
[snip]
This one way to look at it ...
It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is Europe,
China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed greately in
the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay the same?
I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in people's
inability to fully recognize that fact.
e.

On Nov 29, 4:54 pm, wrote:
> On Nov 29, 6:45 pm, greg3347 > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>
> > > America's Day Of
> > > Reckoning Is At Hand
> > > By Paul Craig Roberts
> > > 11-27-7
>
> > >http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> > > Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
> > > message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we have
> > > known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him. These
> > > two writers of different political persuasions arrive at America's
> > > demise from different directions.
>
> > > Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
> > > apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the Bush
> > > administration and committed American blood, energy, and money to
> > > aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East, while
> > > permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by immigrants and
> > > exporting the jobs that had made the US an opportunity society. War
> > > and offshoring have taken a savage economic toll while open borders
> > > and diversity have created social and political division.
>
> > > In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot,
> > > Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of freedoms.
> > > She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to close open
> > > societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial law is only a
> > > declaration away.
>
> > > The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
> > > military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the "war
> > > on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
> > > legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>
> > > Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
> > > and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both US
> > > citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due process, and
> > > access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush legislation
> > > establishing military tribunals, the procedures of which permit people
> > > to be condemned to death on the basis of secret evidence, hearsay, and
> > > confessions extracted by torture. Nothing of the like has ever been
> > > seen before in the US.
>
> > > The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
> > > actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that the
> > > Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration actually
> > > possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime might have
> > > succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution. Conviction of the
> > > detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a "fascist expansion."
> > > Following the exercise of its new powers, the regime could have
> > > broadened the definition of terrorist to include the regime's critics,
> > > thus pulling citizens in general into tribunals devoid of civil
> > > liberty protections.
>
> > > It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11 attack,
> > > whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive toward tyranny
> > > has been blunted, because the vast majority of detainees turned out to
> > > be hapless individuals sold into American captivity by warlords
> > > responding to the bounty the US paid for "terrorists." Any unprotected
> > > individual was vulnerable to being captured by Afghan and Pakistani
> > > warlords and sold as a "terrorist." The Americans needed to show
> > > results, and the Bush regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the
> > > fear its propaganda had generated.
>
> > > In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would not
> > > have mattered as the judicial system produced the results demanded by
> > > the tyrants. However, the US military had not been sufficiently
> > > corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to succeed.
> > > Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham, were able to
> > > discern that the US government had no information on the detainees and
> > > used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the a priori
> > > determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy combatant.
> > > Military officers made these revelations known to real courts before
> > > the tribunal process could establish itself.
>
> > > CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
> > > Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
> > > Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had hundreds of
> > > dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another Bush
> > > administration lie.
>
> > > Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative agenda is
> > > low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have proven to be
> > > feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward war and tyranny. It
> > > remains to be seen whether the regime has sufficient credibility or
> > > audacity to initiate war with Iran or a false flag attack that would
> > > revive the fascist expansion of which Naomi Wolf warns.
>
> > > The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
> > > unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is deeply
> > > in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has lost 60 per
> > > cent of its value against other tradable currencies, and its reserve
> > > currency status, the basis of American power, is in doubt. The US has
> > > lost millions of middle class jobs which have been replaced with low
> > > paid domestic service jobs. Except for the very rich, Americans have
> > > experienced no gains in real income in the 21st century. As the
> > > ladders of upward mobility are dismantled and the middle class
> > > struggles and fails, America is left with a few rich and many poor.
> > > America's reputation and credibility are damaged perhaps beyond
> > > repair. Congress and the press have enabled the executive branch's
> > > disregard of the Constitution and civil liberty. The US is mired in
> > > two lost wars which are pushing Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan
> > > into deepening political crises.
>
> > > As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>
> > > Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
> > > Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution
>
> > America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
> > barely holding up the carcass
> > of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
> > EuroAmerican
> > Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
> > riots. Welcome them.
>
> > greg
>
> >http://www.vdare.com/V-Dare
>
> the dow would still be over valued at 8,500. 3000-5000, maybe. but, a
> poor economy with no intervention for the true creators of wealth,
> with no way for those creators to innovate competing with serfs, and
> those innovators will put money to better use, instead money is thrown
> at rent seekers, this may well feed on itself, and the dow at 5000 may
> look high.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

thats about right imo.

the rentier class does not value the wealth production class, they use
it,, when its used up then the entire mess collapses, with no
recourse.. and our newy risen serf level compettion insures that
wages will stay so low as to preclude re emergence of a high end
consumer economy... the kind that kept rentiers rich.

accordingly we see the results in other nations. entrprise fades,
and without a rich USA to sell into, those economies suffer also...
corporations by their nature provide a race to the bottom...the top
tenth of 1% win, the bottom 99% lay awake nights figuring out how to
kill them... and they always do,


Phil Scott






Phil scott

phil scott > wrote:
> On Nov 29, 4:54 pm, wrote:
>> On Nov 29, 6:45 pm, greg3347 > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>>
>>>> America's Day Of
>>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>>>> 11-27-7
>>
>>>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>>
>>>> Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
>>>> message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we
>>>> have known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him.
>>>> These two writers of different political persuasions arrive at
>>>> America's demise from different directions.
>>
>>>> Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
>>>> apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the
>>>> Bush administration and committed American blood, energy, and
>>>> money to aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East,
>>>> while permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by
>>>> immigrants and exporting the jobs that had made the US an
>>>> opportunity society. War and offshoring have taken a savage
>>>> economic toll while open borders and diversity have created social
>>>> and political division.
>>
>>>> In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young
>>>> Patriot, Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of
>>>> freedoms. She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to
>>>> close open societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial
>>>> law is only a declaration away.
>>
>>>> The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
>>>> military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the
>>>> "war on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
>>>> legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>>
>>>> Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
>>>> and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both
>>>> US citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due
>>>> process, and access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush
>>>> legislation establishing military tribunals, the procedures of
>>>> which permit people to be condemned to death on the basis of
>>>> secret evidence, hearsay, and confessions extracted by torture.
>>>> Nothing of the like has ever been seen before in the US.
>>
>>>> The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
>>>> actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that
>>>> the Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration
>>>> actually possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime
>>>> might have succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution.
>>>> Conviction of the detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a
>>>> "fascist expansion." Following the exercise of its new powers, the
>>>> regime could have broadened the definition of terrorist to include
>>>> the regime's critics, thus pulling citizens in general into
>>>> tribunals devoid of civil liberty protections.
>>
>>>> It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11
>>>> attack, whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive
>>>> toward tyranny has been blunted, because the vast majority of
>>>> detainees turned out to be hapless individuals sold into American
>>>> captivity by warlords responding to the bounty the US paid for
>>>> "terrorists." Any unprotected individual was vulnerable to being
>>>> captured by Afghan and Pakistani warlords and sold as a
>>>> "terrorist." The Americans needed to show results, and the Bush
>>>> regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the fear its
>>>> propaganda had generated.
>>
>>>> In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would
>>>> not have mattered as the judicial system produced the results
>>>> demanded by the tyrants. However, the US military had not been
>>>> sufficiently corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to
>>>> succeed. Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham,
>>>> were able to discern that the US government had no information on
>>>> the detainees and used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the
>>>> a priori determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy
>>>> combatant. Military officers made these revelations known to real
>>>> courts before the tribunal process could establish itself.
>>
>>>> CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
>>>> Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
>>>> Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had
>>>> hundreds of dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another
>>>> Bush administration lie.
>>
>>>> Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative
>>>> agenda is low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have
>>>> proven to be feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward
>>>> war and tyranny. It remains to be seen whether the regime has
>>>> sufficient credibility or audacity to initiate war with Iran or a
>>>> false flag attack that would revive the fascist expansion of which
>>>> Naomi Wolf warns.
>>
>>>> The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
>>>> unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is
>>>> deeply in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has
>>>> lost 60 per cent of its value against other tradable currencies,
>>>> and its reserve currency status, the basis of American power, is
>>>> in doubt. The US has lost millions of middle class jobs which have
>>>> been replaced with low paid domestic service jobs. Except for the
>>>> very rich, Americans have experienced no gains in real income in
>>>> the 21st century. As the ladders of upward mobility are dismantled
>>>> and the middle class struggles and fails, America is left with a
>>>> few rich and many poor. America's reputation and credibility are
>>>> damaged perhaps beyond repair. Congress and the press have enabled
>>>> the executive branch's disregard of the Constitution and civil
>>>> liberty. The US is mired in two lost wars which are pushing
>>>> Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan into deepening political crises.
>>
>>>> As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>>
>>>> Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
>>>> Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution
>>
>>> America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
>>> barely holding up the carcass
>>> of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
>>> EuroAmerican
>>> Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
>>> riots. Welcome them.
>>
>>> greg
>>
>>> http://www.vdare.com/V-Dare
>>
>> the dow would still be over valued at 8,500. 3000-5000, maybe. but,
>> a poor economy with no intervention for the true creators of wealth,
>> with no way for those creators to innovate competing with serfs, and
>> those innovators will put money to better use, instead money is
>> thrown at rent seekers, this may well feed on itself, and the dow at
>> 5000 may look high.

> thats about right imo.

More fool you.

> the rentier class

No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

> does not value the wealth production class,

No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

> they use it,, when its used up then the entire mess collapses, with no recourse..

How odd that that has never actually happened,
except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

> and our newy risen serf level compettion

No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

> insures that wages will stay so low as to preclude
> re emergence of a high end consumer economy...

No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

> the kind that kept rentiers rich.

No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.

> accordingly we see the results in other nations. entrprise fades,
> and without a rich USA to sell into, those economies suffer also...

Have fun actually listing any of those.

> corporations by their nature provide a race to the bottom...

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> the top tenth of 1% win, the bottom 99% lay awake nights
> figuring out how to kill them... and they always do,

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed rabid fantasys.

"greg3347" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>> America's Day Of
>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>> 11-27-7
>>
>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm



Just one problem with Buchanan: He'd love to see American become a
theocracy. He's hinted at maybe sorta kinda not liking the idea in the past,
but he is not to be trusted. Religion and dogs should never leave your
property line, and should be kept indoors, nice & quiet.

> Just one problem with Buchanan: He'd love to see American become a
> theocracy. He's hinted at maybe sorta kinda not liking the idea in the past,
> but he is not to be trusted. Religion and dogs should never leave your
> property line, and should be kept indoors, nice & quiet.

So much for freedom of speech!

On Nov 30, 7:56 am, Larry Bud > wrote:
> > Just one problem with Buchanan: He'd love to see American become a
> > theocracy. He's hinted at maybe sorta kinda not liking the idea in the past,
> > but he is not to be trusted. Religion and dogs should never leave your
> > property line, and should be kept indoors, nice & quiet.
>
> So much for freedom of speech!

No practical definition of freedom of speech is complete without the
responsibility to know when not to speak.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Nov 30, 7:56 am, Larry Bud > wrote:
>>> Just one problem with Buchanan
>
> No practical definition of freedom of speech is complete without the
> responsibility to know when not to speak.
>
> Cindy Hamilton

Cindy, please don't encourage this cross-posted political stuff to
rec.food.cooking by replying including all the cross-postings. I'm as
guilty as the next person for going off topic but this has absolutely
*nothing* to do with rfc. Thanks in advance.

Jill

On Nov 29, 8:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
> "greg3347" > wrote in message
>
> ...> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
> >> America's Day Of
> >> Reckoning Is At Hand
> >> By Paul Craig Roberts
> >> 11-27-7
>
> >>http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> [snip]
> This one way to look at it ...
> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is Europe,
> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed greately in
> the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay the same?
> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in people's
> inability to fully recognize that fact.
> e.

there is a difference between those that understand what we have
allowed a feverish cult to do to us, and those who think this is a
super natural event.
putting a gun to ones head and pulling the trigger is something that
should be avoided. it is not natural, nor healthy.
natural change is another matter, we changed as the industrial
revolution has ebbed and flowed. sometimes for the better, sometimes
for the worse. but we always have bounced back.
this time its different. there are high priests who are sacrificing
whole sectors of our society on a alter with blood running red while
their is increasing chanting from the faithful that its working.
the high priests are chanting paradise is just around the corner, we
just need to sacrifice another future generation. if we could only get
america pure enough.
once they run out of sacrifices, what's next, burn rome?

On Nov 29, 6:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
> "greg3347" > wrote in message
>
> ...> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
> >> America's Day Of
> >> Reckoning Is At Hand
> >> By Paul Craig Roberts
> >> 11-27-7
>
> >>http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> [snip]
> This one way to look at it ...
> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is Europe,
> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed greately in
> the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay the same?
> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in people's
> inability to fully recognize that fact.
> e.


a russian economist, Kondratiev sometimes spelled with an f,
kondratief.. has written extensively on economic cycles...and more
importanly on national life cycles. nations live... then die. 260
years is a real close life span.. 5 generations. his anlaysis goes to
human nature drivers... we get lazy and corrupt at 5
generations...then collapse.

China is coming onto its next peak...that will last in the peak phase
for about 40 years...then fade. The US is headed into its first
collapse phase, after ending its peak about 10 years ago (we have been
living on borrowed money).... the collapse phase lasts a generation
at least, usually 2.. ramp up 1, and then another peak.


russia is still going through its collapse phase, with local
exceptions...it will rise again next generation most likely.


Phil Scott

On Nov 30, 12:49 am, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
> phil scott > wrote:
> > On Nov 29, 4:54 pm, wrote:
> >> On Nov 29, 6:45 pm, greg3347 > wrote:
>
> >>> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>
> >>>> America's Day Of
> >>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
> >>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
> >>>> 11-27-7
>
> >>>>http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> >>>> Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
> >>>> message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we
> >>>> have known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him.
> >>>> These two writers of different political persuasions arrive at
> >>>> America's demise from different directions.
>
> >>>> Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
> >>>> apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the
> >>>> Bush administration and committed American blood, energy, and
> >>>> money to aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East,
> >>>> while permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by
> >>>> immigrants and exporting the jobs that had made the US an
> >>>> opportunity society. War and offshoring have taken a savage
> >>>> economic toll while open borders and diversity have created social
> >>>> and political division.
>
> >>>> In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young
> >>>> Patriot, Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of
> >>>> freedoms. She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to
> >>>> close open societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial
> >>>> law is only a declaration away.
>
> >>>> The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
> >>>> military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the
> >>>> "war on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
> >>>> legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>
> >>>> Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
> >>>> and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both
> >>>> US citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due
> >>>> process, and access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush
> >>>> legislation establishing military tribunals, the procedures of
> >>>> which permit people to be condemned to death on the basis of
> >>>> secret evidence, hearsay, and confessions extracted by torture.
> >>>> Nothing of the like has ever been seen before in the US.
>
> >>>> The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
> >>>> actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that
> >>>> the Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration
> >>>> actually possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime
> >>>> might have succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution.
> >>>> Conviction of the detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a
> >>>> "fascist expansion." Following the exercise of its new powers, the
> >>>> regime could have broadened the definition of terrorist to include
> >>>> the regime's critics, thus pulling citizens in general into
> >>>> tribunals devoid of civil liberty protections.
>
> >>>> It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11
> >>>> attack, whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive
> >>>> toward tyranny has been blunted, because the vast majority of
> >>>> detainees turned out to be hapless individuals sold into American
> >>>> captivity by warlords responding to the bounty the US paid for
> >>>> "terrorists." Any unprotected individual was vulnerable to being
> >>>> captured by Afghan and Pakistani warlords and sold as a
> >>>> "terrorist." The Americans needed to show results, and the Bush
> >>>> regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the fear its
> >>>> propaganda had generated.
>
> >>>> In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would
> >>>> not have mattered as the judicial system produced the results
> >>>> demanded by the tyrants. However, the US military had not been
> >>>> sufficiently corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to
> >>>> succeed. Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham,
> >>>> were able to discern that the US government had no information on
> >>>> the detainees and used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the
> >>>> a priori determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy
> >>>> combatant. Military officers made these revelations known to real
> >>>> courts before the tribunal process could establish itself.
>
> >>>> CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
> >>>> Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
> >>>> Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had
> >>>> hundreds of dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another
> >>>> Bush administration lie.
>
> >>>> Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative
> >>>> agenda is low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have
> >>>> proven to be feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward
> >>>> war and tyranny. It remains to be seen whether the regime has
> >>>> sufficient credibility or audacity to initiate war with Iran or a
> >>>> false flag attack that would revive the fascist expansion of which
> >>>> Naomi Wolf warns.
>
> >>>> The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
> >>>> unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is
> >>>> deeply in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has
> >>>> lost 60 per cent of its value against other tradable currencies,
> >>>> and its reserve currency status, the basis of American power, is
> >>>> in doubt. The US has lost millions of middle class jobs which have
> >>>> been replaced with low paid domestic service jobs. Except for the
> >>>> very rich, Americans have experienced no gains in real income in
> >>>> the 21st century. As the ladders of upward mobility are dismantled
> >>>> and the middle class struggles and fails, America is left with a
> >>>> few rich and many poor. America's reputation and credibility are
> >>>> damaged perhaps beyond repair. Congress and the press have enabled
> >>>> the executive branch's disregard of the Constitution and civil
> >>>> liberty. The US is mired in two lost wars which are pushing
> >>>> Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan into deepening political crises.
>
> >>>> As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>
> >>>> Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
> >>>> Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution
>
> >>> America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
> >>> barely holding up the carcass
> >>> of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
> >>> EuroAmerican
> >>> Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
> >>> riots. Welcome them.
>
> >>> greg
>
> >>>http://www.vdare.com/V-Dare
>
> >> the dow would still be over valued at 8,500. 3000-5000, maybe. but,
> >> a poor economy with no intervention for the true creators of wealth,
> >> with no way for those creators to innovate competing with serfs, and
> >> those innovators will put money to better use, instead money is
> >> thrown at rent seekers, this may well feed on itself, and the dow at
> >> 5000 may look high.
> > thats about right imo.
>
> More fool you.
>
> > the rentier class
>
> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>
> > does not value the wealth production class,
>
> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>
> > they use it,, when its used up then the entire mess collapses, with no recourse..
>
> How odd that that has never actually happened,
> except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>
> > and our newy risen serf level compettion
>
> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>
> > insures that wages will stay so low as to preclude
> > re emergence of a high end consumer economy...
>
> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>
> > the kind that kept rentiers rich.
>
> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>
> > accordingly we see the results in other nations. entrprise fades,
> > and without a rich USA to sell into, those economies suffer also...
>
> Have fun actually listing any of those.
>
> > corporations by their nature provide a race to the bottom...
>
> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.
>
> > the top tenth of 1% win, the bottom 99% lay awake nights
> > figuring out how to kill them... and they always do,
>
> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed rabid fantasys.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


drugs and trash jobs.. that was impressive

On Nov 30, 11:51 am, phil scott > wrote:
> On Nov 29, 6:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > "greg3347" > wrote in message
>
> ...> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
> > >> America's Day Of
> > >> Reckoning Is At Hand
> > >> By Paul Craig Roberts
> > >> 11-27-7
>
> > >>http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> > [snip]
> > This one way to look at it ...
> > It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is Europe,
> > China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed greately in
> > the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay the same?
> > I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in people's
> > inability to fully recognize that fact.
> > e.
>
> a russian economist, Kondratiev sometimes spelled with an f,
> kondratief.. has written extensively on economic cycles...and more
> importanly on national life cycles. nations live... then die. 260
> years is a real close life span.. 5 generations. his anlaysis goes to
> human nature drivers... we get lazy and corrupt at 5
> generations...then collapse.
>
> China is coming onto its next peak...that will last in the peak phase
> for about 40 years...then fade. The US is headed into its first
> collapse phase, after ending its peak about 10 years ago (we have been
> living on borrowed money).... the collapse phase lasts a generation
> at least, usually 2.. ramp up 1, and then another peak.
>
> russia is still going through its collapse phase, with local
> exceptions...it will rise again next generation most likely.

That all sounds pretty reasonable.
>
> Phil Scott

--Bryan http://www.TheBonobos.com/thesongs.html

phil scott > wrote:
> On Nov 30, 12:49 am, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>> phil scott > wrote:
>>> On Nov 29, 4:54 pm, wrote:
>>>> On Nov 29, 6:45 pm, greg3347 > wrote:
>>
>>>>> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>>
>>>>>> America's Day Of
>>>>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>>>>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>>>>>> 11-27-7
>>
>>>>>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>>
>>>>>> Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but
>>>>>> the message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America,
>>>>>> as we have known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees
>>>>>> with him. These two writers of different political persuasions
>>>>>> arrive at America's demise from different directions.
>>
>>>>>> Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn
>>>>>> America apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda
>>>>>> captured the Bush administration and committed American blood,
>>>>>> energy, and money to aggression against Muslim countries in the
>>>>>> Middle East, while permitting America's domestic borders to be
>>>>>> overrun by immigrants and exporting the jobs that had made the
>>>>>> US an opportunity society. War and offshoring have taken a savage
>>>>>> economic toll while open borders and diversity have created
>>>>>> social and political division.
>>
>>>>>> In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young
>>>>>> Patriot, Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion
>>>>>> of freedoms. She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used
>>>>>> to close open societies are currently being taken in the US.
>>>>>> Martial law is only a declaration away.
>>
>>>>>> The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
>>>>>> military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the
>>>>>> "war on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
>>>>>> legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>>
>>>>>> Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be
>>>>>> arrested and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated
>>>>>> accusation. Both US citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas
>>>>>> corpus, due process, and access to attorneys and courts.
>>>>>> Congress gave Bush legislation establishing military tribunals,
>>>>>> the procedures of which permit people to be condemned to death
>>>>>> on the basis of secret evidence, hearsay, and confessions
>>>>>> extracted by torture. Nothing of the like has ever been seen
>>>>>> before in the US.
>>
>>>>>> The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees
>>>>>> had actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants
>>>>>> that the Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration
>>>>>> actually possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush
>>>>>> regime might have succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution.
>>>>>> Conviction of the detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a
>>>>>> "fascist expansion." Following the exercise of its new powers,
>>>>>> the regime could have broadened the definition of terrorist to
>>>>>> include the regime's critics, thus pulling citizens in general
>>>>>> into tribunals devoid of civil liberty protections.
>>
>>>>>> It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11
>>>>>> attack, whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive
>>>>>> toward tyranny has been blunted, because the vast majority of
>>>>>> detainees turned out to be hapless individuals sold into American
>>>>>> captivity by warlords responding to the bounty the US paid for
>>>>>> "terrorists." Any unprotected individual was vulnerable to being
>>>>>> captured by Afghan and Pakistani warlords and sold as a
>>>>>> "terrorist." The Americans needed to show results, and the Bush
>>>>>> regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the fear its
>>>>>> propaganda had generated.
>>
>>>>>> In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence
>>>>>> would not have mattered as the judicial system produced the
>>>>>> results demanded by the tyrants. However, the US military had
>>>>>> not been sufficiently corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo
>>>>>> agenda to succeed. Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen
>>>>>> Abraham, were able to discern that the US government had no
>>>>>> information on the detainees and used interrogations in order to
>>>>>> rubber stamp the a priori determination that a detainee was a
>>>>>> terrorist or enemy combatant. Military officers made these
>>>>>> revelations known to real courts before the tribunal process
>>>>>> could establish itself.
>>
>>>>>> CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book,
>>>>>> The Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in
>>>>>> America's Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it
>>>>>> had hundreds of dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just
>>>>>> another Bush administration lie.
>>
>>>>>> Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative
>>>>>> agenda is low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have
>>>>>> proven to be feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward
>>>>>> war and tyranny. It remains to be seen whether the regime has
>>>>>> sufficient credibility or audacity to initiate war with Iran or a
>>>>>> false flag attack that would revive the fascist expansion of
>>>>>> which Naomi Wolf warns.
>>
>>>>>> The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
>>>>>> unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is
>>>>>> deeply in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has
>>>>>> lost 60 per cent of its value against other tradable currencies,
>>>>>> and its reserve currency status, the basis of American power, is
>>>>>> in doubt. The US has lost millions of middle class jobs which
>>>>>> have been replaced with low paid domestic service jobs. Except
>>>>>> for the very rich, Americans have experienced no gains in real
>>>>>> income in the 21st century. As the ladders of upward mobility
>>>>>> are dismantled and the middle class struggles and fails, America
>>>>>> is left with a few rich and many poor. America's reputation and
>>>>>> credibility are damaged perhaps beyond repair. Congress and the
>>>>>> press have enabled the executive branch's disregard of the
>>>>>> Constitution and civil liberty. The US is mired in two lost wars
>>>>>> which are pushing Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan into
>>>>>> deepening political crises.
>>
>>>>>> As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>>
>>>>>> Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
>>>>>> Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution
>>
>>>>> America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
>>>>> barely holding up the carcass
>>>>> of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
>>>>> EuroAmerican
>>>>> Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
>>>>> riots. Welcome them.
>>
>>>>> greg
>>
>>>>> http://www.vdare.com/V-Dare
>>
>>>> the dow would still be over valued at 8,500. 3000-5000, maybe.
>>>> but, a poor economy with no intervention for the true creators of
>>>> wealth, with no way for those creators to innovate competing with
>>>> serfs, and those innovators will put money to better use, instead
>>>> money is thrown at rent seekers, this may well feed on itself, and
>>>> the dow at 5000 may look high.
>>> thats about right imo.
>>
>> More fool you.
>>
>>> the rentier class
>>
>> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed
>> fantasyland.
>>
>>> does not value the wealth production class,
>>
>> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed
>> fantasyland.
>>
>>> they use it,, when its used up then the entire mess collapses, with
>>> no recourse..
>>
>> How odd that that has never actually happened,
>> except in your pathetic little drug crazed fantasyland.
>>
>>> and our newy risen serf level compettion
>>
>> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed
>> fantasyland.
>>
>>> insures that wages will stay so low as to preclude
>>> re emergence of a high end consumer economy...
>>
>> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed
>> fantasyland.
>>
>>> the kind that kept rentiers rich.
>>
>> No such animal except in your pathetic little drug crazed
>> fantasyland.
>>
>>> accordingly we see the results in other nations. entrprise fades,
>>> and without a rich USA to sell into, those economies suffer also...
>>
>> Have fun actually listing any of those.
>>
>>> corporations by their nature provide a race to the bottom...
>>
>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that
>> claim.
>>
>>> the top tenth of 1% win, the bottom 99% lay awake nights
>>> figuring out how to kill them... and they always do,
>>
>> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed rabid fantasys.-

> drugs and trash jobs.. that was impressive

Your pathetic response in spades, child.

wrote:
> On Nov 29, 8:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
>> "greg3347" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...>
>> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>>>> America's Day Of
>>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>>>> 11-27-7
>>
>>>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>>
>> [snip]
>> This one way to look at it ...
>> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is
>> Europe,
>> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed
>> greately in
>> the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay
>> the same?
>> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in
>> people's
>> inability to fully recognize that fact.
>> e.
>
> there is a difference between those that understand what we have
> allowed a feverish cult to do to us, and those who think this is a
> super natural event.
> putting a gun to ones head and pulling the trigger is something that
> should be avoided. it is not natural, nor healthy.
> natural change is another matter, we changed as the industrial
> revolution has ebbed and flowed. sometimes for the better, sometimes
> for the worse. but we always have bounced back.
> this time its different.

Nope, the same thing will happen, you watch.

> there are high priests who are sacrificing whole sectors
> of our society on a alter with blood running red while their
> is increasing chanting from the faithful that its working.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

With an unemployment rate of 4.x%, there is no catastrophe, fool.

> the high priests are chanting paradise is just around
> the corner, we just need to sacrifice another future
> generation. if we could only get america pure enough.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

> once they run out of sacrifices, what's next, burn rome?

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

On Nov 29, 7:45 pm, greg3347 > wrote:
> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > America's Day Of
> > Reckoning Is At Hand
> > By Paul Craig Roberts
> > 11-27-7
>
> >http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> > Pat Buchanan is too patriotic to come right out and say it, but the
> > message of his new book, Day of Reckoning, is that America, as we have
> > known her, is finished. Moreover, Naomi Wolf agrees with him. These
> > two writers of different political persuasions arrive at America's
> > demise from different directions.
>
> > Buchanan explains how hubris, ideology, and greed have torn America
> > apart. A neoconservative cabal with an alien agenda captured the Bush
> > administration and committed American blood, energy, and money to
> > aggression against Muslim countries in the Middle East, while
> > permitting America's domestic borders to be overrun by immigrants and
> > exporting the jobs that had made the US an opportunity society. War
> > and offshoring have taken a savage economic toll while open borders
> > and diversity have created social and political division.
>
> > In her new book, End of America: Letter of Warning to a Young Patriot,
> > Wolf explains America's demise in terms of the erosion of freedoms.
> > She writes that the 10 classic steps that are used to close open
> > societies are currently being taken in the US. Martial law is only a
> > declaration away.
>
> > The Bush administration responded to September 11 by initiating
> > military aggression in the Middle East and by using fear and the "war
> > on terror" to implement police state measures at home with
> > legislation, presidential directives, and executive orders
>
> > Overnight the US became a tyranny in which people could be arrested
> > and incarcerated on the basis of unsubstantiated accusation. Both US
> > citizens and non-citizens were denied habeas corpus, due process, and
> > access to attorneys and courts. Congress gave Bush legislation
> > establishing military tribunals, the procedures of which permit people
> > to be condemned to death on the basis of secret evidence, hearsay, and
> > confessions extracted by torture. Nothing of the like has ever been
> > seen before in the US.
>
> > The cancer might have metastasized if the Guantanamo detainees had
> > actually been the dangerous terrorists and enemy combatants that the
> > Bush regime declared them to be. Had the administration actually
> > possessed evidence against the detainees, the Bush regime might have
> > succeeded in dispensing with the Constitution. Conviction of the
> > detainees could have led to what Wolf calls a "fascist expansion."
> > Following the exercise of its new powers, the regime could have
> > broadened the definition of terrorist to include the regime's critics,
> > thus pulling citizens in general into tribunals devoid of civil
> > liberty protections.
>
> > It could still turn out this way in the event of another 9/11 attack,
> > whether real or orchestrated. But momentarily the drive toward tyranny
> > has been blunted, because the vast majority of detainees turned out to
> > be hapless individuals sold into American captivity by warlords
> > responding to the bounty the US paid for "terrorists." Any unprotected
> > individual was vulnerable to being captured by Afghan and Pakistani
> > warlords and sold as a "terrorist." The Americans needed to show
> > results, and the Bush regime needed "terrorists" in order to feed the
> > fear its propaganda had generated.
>
> > In Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, the absence of evidence would not
> > have mattered as the judicial system produced the results demanded by
> > the tyrants. However, the US military had not been sufficiently
> > corrupted for the Bush regime's Guantanamo agenda to succeed.
> > Honorable officers, such as Lt. Col. Stephen Abraham, were able to
> > discern that the US government had no information on the detainees and
> > used interrogations in order to rubber stamp the a priori
> > determination that a detainee was a terrorist or enemy combatant.
> > Military officers made these revelations known to real courts before
> > the tribunal process could establish itself.
>
> > CounterPunch writer Andy Worthington's recently published book, The
> > Guantanamo Files: The Stories of the 759 Detainees in America's
> > Illegal Prison, proves that the regime's claim that it had hundreds of
> > dangerous terrorists at Guantanamo was just another Bush
> > administration lie.
>
> > Currently, support for Bush, Cheney, and the neoconservative agenda is
> > low. However, Congress, the press, and elections have proven to be
> > feeble opponents of the Bush regime's drive toward war and tyranny. It
> > remains to be seen whether the regime has sufficient credibility or
> > audacity to initiate war with Iran or a false flag attack that would
> > revive the fascist expansion of which Naomi Wolf warns.
>
> > The Bush administration has been a catastrophe. Its failures are
> > unprecedented. Energy prices are at all time highs. The US is deeply
> > in debt and dependent on foreign creditors. The dollar has lost 60 per
> > cent of its value against other tradable currencies, and its reserve
> > currency status, the basis of American power, is in doubt. The US has
> > lost millions of middle class jobs which have been replaced with low
> > paid domestic service jobs. Except for the very rich, Americans have
> > experienced no gains in real income in the 21st century. As the
> > ladders of upward mobility are dismantled and the middle class
> > struggles and fails, America is left with a few rich and many poor.
> > America's reputation and credibility are damaged perhaps beyond
> > repair. Congress and the press have enabled the executive branch's
> > disregard of the Constitution and civil liberty. The US is mired in
> > two lost wars which are pushing Lebanon and nuclear-armed Pakistan
> > into deepening political crises.
>
> > As Buchanan concludes, "Our day of reckoning is at hand."
>
> > Paul Craig Roberts was Assistant Secretary of the Treasury in the
> > Reagan Administration. He is the author of Supply-Side Revolution
>
> America needs something catastrophic to remove the rotting pillars
> barely holding up the carcass
> of what was at one time, a nation. And out of the chaos our
> EuroAmerican
> Tribe will recreate a new nation. Dow at 8,500, gas 4.50 a gallon,
> riots. Welcome them.
>
> greg
>
> http://www.vdare.com/ V-Dare- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



we already have that it's called the government.. i thought they
were doing a good job rotting our pillars.

phil scott > wrote:
> On Nov 29, 6:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
>> "greg3347" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...>
>> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
>>>> America's Day Of
>>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>>>> 11-27-7
>>
>>>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>>
>> [snip]
>> This one way to look at it ...
>> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is
>> Europe,
>> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed
>> greately in
>> the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay
>> the same?
>> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in
>> people's
>> inability to fully recognize that fact.
>> e.
>
>
> a russian economist, Kondratiev sometimes spelled with an f,
> kondratief.. has written extensively on economic cycles...and more
> importanly on national life cycles. nations live... then die. 260
> years is a real close life span.. 5 generations. his anlaysis goes to
> human nature drivers... we get lazy and corrupt at 5
> generations...then collapse.

Bet that wont happen with the west, you watch.

> China is coming onto its next peak...that will last
> in the peak phase for about 40 years...then fade.

Pity about how long the US has lasted for already.

> The US is headed into its first collapse phase, after ending its peak
> about 10 years ago (we have been living on borrowed money)....

The same stupid claim was made in the Vietnam War era too.

How odd that we didnt see anything like any collapse phase as a result of that.

> the collapse phase lasts a generation at least,
> usually 2.. ramp up 1, and then another peak.

Pity that stupid 50 year claim is miles out with the US and western europe.

> russia is still going through its collapse phase, with local
> exceptions...it will rise again next generation most likely.

On Nov 30, 10:24 am, "Rod Speed" > wrote:


yer mind on drugs....good going bud.

actually the life cycle of a nation runs real close to a mere 260
years, and at its not all roses much of that way... so there are
predictions of doom that do not materialise before the 260 years
(approximately) is up..... at the 5th generation though, a nation ends
up with blighters and morons running loose...then goes into a very
very long collapse phase... England was a good example... it used to
ruile half of the free world.

no more though you see... as it is becoming overrun by those it used
to rule over in the middle east.. and a host of dopers domestically
with 4 word vocabularies. rod.... trolling or not... its just
stoooopid son.




Phil Scott

On Nov 30, 10:19 am, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
> wrote:
> > On Nov 29, 8:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
> >> "greg3347" > wrote in message
>
> ...>
> >> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
> >>>> America's Day Of
> >>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
> >>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
> >>>> 11-27-7
>
> >>>>http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> >> [snip]
> >> This one way to look at it ...
> >> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is
> >> Europe,
> >> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed
> >> greately in
> >> the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay
> >> the same?
> >> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in
> >> people's
> >> inability to fully recognize that fact.
> >> e.
>
> > there is a difference between those that understand what we have
> > allowed a feverish cult to do to us, and those who think this is a
> > super natural event.
> > putting a gun to ones head and pulling the trigger is something that
> > should be avoided. it is not natural, nor healthy.
> > natural change is another matter, we changed as the industrial
> > revolution has ebbed and flowed. sometimes for the better, sometimes
> > for the worse. but we always have bounced back.
> > this time its different.
>
> Nope, the same thing will happen, you watch.
>
> > there are high priests who are sacrificing whole sectors
> > of our society on a alter with blood running red while their
> > is increasing chanting from the faithful that its working.
>
> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.
>
> With an unemployment rate of 4.x%, there is no catastrophe, fool.

Your tone is obnoxious. Do you know how they figure the unemployment
rate? And this is when this administration isn't just lying and
I don't even know if they ever don't lie. Even trustworthy
administrations
fudge the figures. You know the old saying, "Figures don't lie but
liars
figure."

> > the high priests are chanting paradise is just around
> > the corner, we just need to sacrifice another future
> > generation. if we could only get america pure enough.
>
> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

Repitition is the sign of the chant.

> > once they run out of sacrifices, what's next, burn rome?
>
> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

Need I say more?

On Dec 1, 11:18 am, wrote:
> On Nov 30, 10:19 am, "Rod Speed" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > > On Nov 29, 8:59 pm, "Econotron" > wrote:
> > >> "greg3347" > wrote in message
>
> > ...>
> > >> On Nov 29, 12:42 pm, WakeUp Call > wrote:
> > >>>> America's Day Of
> > >>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
> > >>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
> > >>>> 11-27-7
>
> > >>>>http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm
>
> > >> [snip]
> > >> This one way to look at it ...
> > >> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is
> > >> Europe,
> > >> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed
> > >> greately in
> > >> the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay
> > >> the same?
> > >> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in
> > >> people's
> > >> inability to fully recognize that fact.
> > >> e.
>
> > > there is a difference between those that understand what we have
> > > allowed a feverish cult to do to us, and those who think this is a
> > > super natural event.
> > > putting a gun to ones head and pulling the trigger is something that
> > > should be avoided. it is not natural, nor healthy.
> > > natural change is another matter, we changed as the industrial
> > > revolution has ebbed and flowed. sometimes for the better, sometimes
> > > for the worse. but we always have bounced back.
> > > this time its different.
>
> > Nope, the same thing will happen, you watch.
>
> > > there are high priests who are sacrificing whole sectors
> > > of our society on a alter with blood running red while their
> > > is increasing chanting from the faithful that its working.
>
> > Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.
>
> > With an unemployment rate of 4.x%, there is no catastrophe, fool.
>
> Your tone is obnoxious. Do you know how they figure the unemployment
> rate? And this is when this administration isn't just lying and
> I don't even know if they ever don't lie. Even trustworthy
> administrations
> fudge the figures. You know the old saying, "Figures don't lie but
> liars
> figure."
>
> > > the high priests are chanting paradise is just around
> > > the corner, we just need to sacrifice another future
> > > generation. if we could only get america pure enough.
>
> > Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.
>
> Repitition is the sign of the chant.
>

hehehehe, that is a good one. i will remember that! answering someone
who is a obvious chanter takes fortitude. i bow to your intellectual
prowess.


> > > once they run out of sacrifices, what's next, burn rome?
>
> > Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.
>
> Need I say more?

nope.

wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> wrote
>>> Econotron > wrote
>>>> greg3347 > wrote
>>>> WakeUp Call > wrote

>>>>>> America's Day Of
>>>>>> Reckoning Is At Hand
>>>>>> By Paul Craig Roberts
>>>>>> 11-27-7

>>>>>> http://rense.com/general79/reck.htm

>>>> [snip]
>>>> This one way to look at it ...
>>>> It may well be that America "as we know it" is finished, but so is Europe,
>>>> China, Russia, and many other countries. The World has changed greately
>>>> in the last quarter of a century. Is it possible for America to stay the same?
>>>> I do not think so, and see the part of the current problems in people's
>>>> inability to fully recognize that fact.

>>> there is a difference between those that understand
>>> what we have allowed a feverish cult to do to us,
>>> and those who think this is a super natural event.

>>> putting a gun to ones head and pulling the trigger is something
>>> that should be avoided. it is not natural, nor healthy.

>>> natural change is another matter, we changed as the industrial
>>> revolution has ebbed and flowed. sometimes for the better,
>>> sometimes for the worse. but we always have bounced back.
>>> this time its different.

>> Nope, the same thing will happen, you watch.

>>> there are high priests who are sacrificing whole sectors
>>> of our society on a alter with blood running red while their
>>> is increasing chanting from the faithful that its working.

>> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

>> With an unemployment rate of 4.x%, there is no catastrophe, fool.

> Your tone is obnoxious.

Corse your isnt, eh hypocrite ?

> Do you know how they figure the unemployment rate?

Yep.
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cps_htgm.htm

> And this is when this administration isn't just lying and I don't even
> know if they ever don't lie. Even trustworthy administrations fudge
> the figures. You know the old saying, "Figures don't lie but liars figure."

Have fun explaining the fact that the standardised OECD
unemployment rate is only ever 0.1% or so different.

>>> the high priests are chanting paradise is just around
>>> the corner, we just need to sacrifice another future
>>> generation. if we could only get america pure enough.

>> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

> Repitition is the sign of the chant.

Your shit is the sign of a fool.

>>> once they run out of sacrifices, what's next, burn rome?

>> Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

> Need I say more?

Nope, there is only so much of your mindless hypocritical shit that anyone should have to put up with.

> JoeSpareBedroom wrote
>> greg3347 wrote
>>
>> America's Day Of Reckoning Is At Hand
>
> Just one problem with Buchanan: He'd love to see American become a
> theocracy. He's hinted at maybe sorta kinda not liking the idea in the past,
> but he is not to be trusted. Religion and dogs should never leave your
> property line, and should be kept indoors, nice & quiet.

Maybe, but that's no reason to toss the baby out with the bath
water.

Buchanan (and other commentators) makes many valid points
but you can't be everything to everyone and unfortunately, every
thing he says is automatically rejected by many people because
of a few stupid comments.

The Iraq War, uncontrolled mass migration, "outsourcing" jobs,
increased police powers, etc are simply not good for America
or the World.

The powers that be are tearing down Western civilization to make
a large quick profit instead of going for smaller profits over a much
longer term by bringing the rest of the world up to our level.

I agree with the OP; there will be no change until the shit hits the
fan and the sooner the better.

phil scott > wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote

<reams of your mindless shit any 2 year old could leave for dead flushed where it belongs>

> actually the life cycle of a nation runs real close to a mere 260 years,

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> and at its not all roses much of that way...

Only a fool would expect anything else. You qualify.

> so there are predictions of doom that do not materialise
> before the 260 years (approximately) is up.....

And plenty of examples where there never ever was any doom.....

> at the 5th generation though, a nation ends up with blighters and morons running loose...

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> then goes into a very very long collapse phase...

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

> England was a good example... it used to ruile half of the free world.

And there are plenty of examples of nothing like that.

> no more though you see...

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed hysterical fantasys.

> as it is becoming overrun by those it used to rule over in the middle east..

No it aint. Its actually been overrun with FAR more of the others it used to rule.

A tiny handful of western european countrys are actually that stupid ? Their problem.

> and a host of dopers domestically with 4 word vocabularies.

Like it or lump it. It was always like that.

> rod.... trolling or not... its just stoooopid son.

Then do the decent thing and set fire to yourself in 'protest' or sumfin, child.

wrote
> wrote
>> Rod Speed wrote

>>> With an unemployment rate of 4.x%, there is no catastrophe, fool.

>> Your tone is obnoxious. Do you know how they figure the unemployment
>> rate? And this is when this administration isn't just lying and I don't even
>> know if they ever don't lie. Even trustworthy administrations fudge the
>> figures. You know the old saying, "Figures don't lie but liars figure."

> Yep.

Nope.

> Look at job market participation rates

Doesnt prove a damned thing about the unemployment rate.

That should have been obvious in the past when so many
married women chose not to work. They werent unemployed
and there was nothing like any catastrophe involved either.

> instead of the bogus unemployment rate :

Your claims about these numbers are what is completely bogus.

> Series Id: LNS11300000
> Seasonal Adjusted
> Series title: (Seas) Labor Force Participation Rate
> Labor force status: Civilian labor force participation rate
> Type of data: Percent
> Age: 16 years and over

> Year Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
> 1997 67.0 66.9 67.1 67.1 67.1 67.1 67.2 67.2 67.1 67.1 67.2 67.2
> 1998 67.1 67.1 67.1 67.0 67.0 67.0 67.0 67.0 67.2 67.2 67.1 67.2
> 1999 67.2 67.2 67.0 67.1 67.1 67.1 67.1 67.0 67.0 67.0 67.1 67.1
> 2000 67.3 67.3 67.3 67.3 67.1 67.1 66.9 66.9 66.9 66.8 66.9 67.0
> 2001 67.2 67.1 67.2 66.9 66.7 66.7 66.8 66.5 66.8 66.7 66.7 66.7
> 2002 66.5 66.8 66.6 66.7 66.7 66.6 66.5 66.6 66.7 66.6 66.4 66.3
> 2003 66.4 66.4 66.3 66.4 66.4 66.5 66.2 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.2 66.0
> 2004 66.1 66.0 66.0 65.9 65.9 66.1 66.1 66.0 65.8 65.9 66.0 66.0
> 2005 65.8 65.9 65.8 66.0 66.1 66.0 66.1 66.2 66.2 66.1 66.1 66.0
> 2006 66.0 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.1 66.2 66.2 66.2 66.2 66.2 66.3 66.4
> 2007 66.3 66.2 66.2 66.0 66.0 66.1 66.1 65.8 66.0 65.9

Nothing even remotely resembling anything like any catastrophe.

**** all change from the highest to the lowest in fact.

> Every full percentage point is about 2.3 million people.

Doesnt mean they are unemployed tho.

> There are four million people not in the labor force

Yes.

> that want to be working

You dont know that from those numbers.

> and another 7.2 million unemployed.

And that in spades. And those numbers are **** all in a 300M population anyway.

Ed Stasiak > wrote
>> JoeSpareBedroom wrote
>>> greg3347 wrote

>>> America's Day Of Reckoning Is At Hand

>> Just one problem with Buchanan:

There's a hell of a lot more than just one problem.

>> He'd love to see American become a theocracy. He's hinted
>> at maybe sorta kinda not liking the idea in the past, but he is
>> not to be trusted. Religion and dogs should never leave your
>> property line, and should be kept indoors, nice & quiet.

> Maybe, but that's no reason to toss the baby out with the bath water.

There is no baby and no bath water.

> Buchanan (and other commentators) makes many valid points
> but you can't be everything to everyone and unfortunately, every
> thing he says is automatically rejected by many people because
> of a few stupid comments.

More than a few.

> The Iraq War, uncontrolled mass migration,

You clearly wouldnt know what real uncontrolled
mass migration was if it bit you on your lard arse.

> "outsourcing" jobs, increased police powers, etc
> are simply not good for America or the World.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

In spades with the world.

> The powers that be are tearing down Western civilization

Pigs arse they are.

> to make a large quick profit instead of going for smaller profits over
> a much longer term by bringing the rest of the world up to our level.

Another pig ignorant lie. Thats what outsourcing does, stupid.

> I agree with the OP; there will be no change until
> the shit hits the fan and the sooner the better.

And the shit aint gunna hit the fan, you watch.