On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 18:09:18 GMT, Janet Baraclough
> wrote:

>The message >
>from "jmcquown" > contains these words:
>
>> Sheldon wrote:
>> > On Dec 8, 6:34?pm, "jmcquown" > wrote:
>
>> > You're really losing it... that was a compliment, I took your side,
>> > you idiot! LOL Jill, I do believe you suffer from clinical paranoia.
>> >
>> > Sheldon
>
>> DUH, Sheldon. I knew you took my side. I was agreeing with you agreeing
>> with me. Hello??
>
> :-) Romance is in the air.
>
> Get married why don't you. We will all dib in to send you both on a
>very long honeymoon to a lovely desert island.
>
> Janet

with no 'net access?

your pal,
blake

On Mon, 10 Dec 2007 01:31:01 -0600, Charlene Charette
> wrote:

>rosie wrote:
>> On Dec 9, 1:06?pm, Janet Baraclough >
>> wrote:
>>> The message
>>> >
>>> from rosie > contains these words:
>>>
>>>> Most homes today are built with either granite or
>>>> some sort of corian type material.
>>> ? ?Really? ?Which planet are you posting from?
>>>
>>> ? ? Janet.
>>
>> I am posting from Texas, and I cannot say that I am in love with this
>> place, but have done a LOT of looking at homes in the last 6 months or
>> so and most of the homes have either corian, or some corian look
>> alike, or granite counters, with the most being granite, I am not
>> speaking of million dollar homes either.
>>
>> Rosie
>
>I'll second that. We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
>never be able to re-sell.
>
>--Charlene

they say everything's harder in texas.

your pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:

> well, i'd agree it would be silly to go from granite to formica.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I just can't get my head around the idea of using poured concrete for
counters. What a mess that'll be if ever you want to redo, huh?

"Goomba38" > ha scritto nel messaggio
. ..
> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> well, i'd agree it would be silly to go from granite to formica.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> I just can't get my head around the idea of using poured concrete for
> counters. What a mess that'll be if ever you want to redo, huh?

I have never seen them poured in place. They come in just as other counters
come in and get installed. I'm sure it's possible to do it the other way,
but sort of silly. It's messy work.

--
http://www.judithgreenwood.com

On Dec 10, 10:30�am, Goomba38 > wrote:
> blake murphy wrote:
> > well, i'd agree it would be silly to go from granite to formica.
>
> > your pal,
> > blake
>
> I just can't get my head around the idea of using poured concrete for
> counters. What a mess that'll be if ever you want to redo, huh?

Actually concrete counters look better than you would think they
would, also concrete floors are very big, we have come full circle
haven't we ?
Rosie

On Dec 10, 3:40Â*pm, Janet Baraclough >
wrote:
> The message >
> from Charlene Charette > contains these words:
>
>
>
>
>
> > rosie wrote:
> > > On Dec 9, 1:06�pm, Janet Baraclough >
> > > wrote:
> > >> The message
> > >> >
> > >> from rosie > contains these words:
>
> > >>> Most homes today are built with either granite or
> > >>> some sort of corian type material.
> > >> � �Really? �Which planet are you posting from?
>
> > >> � � Janet.
>
> > > I am posting from Texas, and I cannot say that I am in love with this
> > > place, but have done a LOT of looking at homes in the last 6 months or
> > > so and most of the homes have either corian, or some corian look
> > > alike, or granite counters, with the most being granite, I am not
> > > speaking of million dollar homes either.
>
> > > Rosie
> > I'll second that. Â*We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
> > never be able to re-sell.
>
> Â* Â*That doesn't say much for the rest of the house.
>
> Â* Â*I think you will find, that Â*"most homes built today" Â*outside Texas,
> do not slavishly ape Texas (hard as that may be, for Texans to imagine).
>
> Â* Â*Janet.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well, in spite of the slightly nasty comment I have probably seen
more homes built outside of texas than you have. Most of them today do
not have formica counters. I have not made an in depth study of this,
but I feel I am pretty much on the mark.

There are many different surfaces, granite is common, corian and
stone like counters are common. I have not seen a new home built with
out one of these counters in the kitchen is several years.

I am living in texas, I am not a Texan, but I do not imagine that
people slavishly ape Texas. You probably watch way to much tv.
Rosie

Giusi wrote:
> "Goomba38" > ha scritto nel messaggio
> . ..
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>
>>> well, i'd agree it would be silly to go from granite to formica.
>>>
>>> your pal,
>>> blake
>> I just can't get my head around the idea of using poured concrete for
>> counters. What a mess that'll be if ever you want to redo, huh?
>
> I have never seen them poured in place. They come in just as other counters
> come in and get installed. I'm sure it's possible to do it the other way,
> but sort of silly. It's messy work.
>
I've seen or read about it. One builds little frames just as if pouring
a sidewalk.
How in the world would you get rid of it if you wanted to change it, I
wonder?

Janet Baraclough wrote:

>> I'll second that. We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
>> never be able to re-sell.
>
> That doesn't say much for the rest of the house.
>
> I think you will find, that "most homes built today" outside Texas,
> do not slavishly ape Texas (hard as that may be, for Texans to imagine).
>
> Janet.

Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.

Goomba38 wrote:
>
> I've seen or read about it. One builds little frames
> just as if pouring a sidewalk.
> How in the world would you get rid of it
> if you wanted to change it, I wonder?

When I was a teenager, I removed a concrete fishpond
for my mom. Took all summer. You use a sledgehammer
to break up the concrete into manageable pieces.
It was a great relief to get to the last piece.

Goomba38 > wrote:

:Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
:goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
:ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
:whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
:makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.

Decorating and home repair shows have the same relation to reality as
cooking shows do for most people.

"Goomba38" > ha scritto nel messaggio
. ..
> Giusi wrote:
>> "Goomba38" > ha scritto nel messaggio
>> . ..
>>> blake murphy wrote:
>>>
>>>> well, i'd agree it would be silly to go from granite to formica.
>>>>
>>>> your pal,
>>>> blake
>>> I just can't get my head around the idea of using poured concrete for
>>> counters. What a mess that'll be if ever you want to redo, huh?
>>
>> I have never seen them poured in place. They come in just as other
>> counters come in and get installed. I'm sure it's possible to do it the
>> other way, but sort of silly. It's messy work.
>>
> I've seen or read about it. One builds little frames just as if pouring a
> sidewalk.
> How in the world would you get rid of it if you wanted to change it, I
> wonder?

Presumably that's the DIY alternative. Nowadays they are a hot button for
pricey kitchens and there are specialty shops that provide them. I am meh
on it.

Mind you, I have not designed a kitchen for anyone else in six years.
Things could have changed again. But they're meant to be permanent, as if
anything is any more. I wouldn't DIY concrete, because if you made a
mistake it would be just as difficult to alter as if you just changed your
mind. Like if you wanted a larger cooker/range or decided you wanted
separate fridge and freezer. OTH, if I personally had to do it, I think
Formica would be just as hard to alter. I design better than I do.--
http://www.judithgreenwood.com

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:09:33 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
>>> I'll second that. We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
>>> never be able to re-sell.
>>
>> That doesn't say much for the rest of the house.
>>
>> I think you will find, that "most homes built today" outside Texas,
>> do not slavishly ape Texas (hard as that may be, for Texans to imagine).
>>
>> Janet.
>
>Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
>goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
>ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
>whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.

That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
with, and the current market. The kitchen in the house we sold 6
months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. We asked several different
realtors what we should do with the kitchen. They all said "nothing,
you'll lose every penny you put in it."

Lou

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 06:09:11 +0000 (UTC), David Scheidt
> wrote:

>Goomba38 > wrote:
>
>:Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
>:goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
>:ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
>:whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>:makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
>
>Decorating and home repair shows have the same relation to reality as
>cooking shows do for most people.

LOL. Isn't that the truth.

Lou

"David Scheidt" > wrote in message
...
> Goomba38 > wrote:
>
> :Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
> :goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
> :ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
> :whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
> :makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
>
> Decorating and home repair shows have the same relation to reality as
> cooking shows do for most people.


I tune in sometimes, but seldom, and I've never seen a makeover that would
resemble anything I've ever lived in. Besides I can't watch the fast moving
paint job camera work, moving furniture in and out of the house in 1000x
fast forward and people screaming. What hysterics!

Dee Dee

"Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:09:33 -0500, Goomba38 >
> wrote:
>
>>Janet Baraclough wrote:
>>
>>>> I'll second that. We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
>>>> never be able to re-sell.
>>>
>>> That doesn't say much for the rest of the house.
>>>
>>> I think you will find, that "most homes built today" outside Texas,
>>> do not slavishly ape Texas (hard as that may be, for Texans to imagine).
>>>
>>> Janet.
>>
>>Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
>>goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
>>ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
>>whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>>makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
>
> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
> with, and the current market. The kitchen in the house we sold 6
> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. We asked several different
> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. They all said "nothing,
> you'll lose every penny you put in it."
>
> Lou

Did you agree with the realtors after you sold it? Lots of times people
like to do their kitchen in their own style.

We redid minimally a kitchen in 1993, bought medium-end cabinets and
formica - it already had nice wood floors. DH did all the installation. It
did look better than previously. The persons who bought it loved it! The
kitchen was not good previously. Prices had gone up so much that we sold
the house for exactly double what he had bought it for 5 years previously.
I feel that we got that price in part because of the kitchen.

Dee Dee

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:09:33 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
>>> I'll second that. We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
>>> never be able to re-sell.
>>
>> That doesn't say much for the rest of the house.
>>
>> I think you will find, that "most homes built today" outside Texas,
>> do not slavishly ape Texas (hard as that may be, for Texans to imagine).
>>
>> Janet.
>
>Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
>goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
>ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
>whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.

there's the t.v. show i'd like to see:

'we've come to rip out your beautiful granite counters and put in
cruddy formica! and it won't cost you a cent...'

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:23:22 -0500, "Dee.Dee" >
wrote:

>We redid minimally a kitchen in 1993, bought medium-end cabinets and
>formica - it already had nice wood floors. DH did all the installation. It
>did look better than previously. The persons who bought it loved it! The
>kitchen was not good previously. Prices had gone up so much that we sold
>the house for exactly double what he had bought it for 5 years previously.
>I feel that we got that price in part because of the kitchen.
>
>Dee Dee

Hi Dee Dee,

Sounds much like what we did. The old kitchen had 1970's Formica and
crummy cabinets. We thought about Corian and granite but did not like
them so much that we were willing to pay the price---we have a LOT of
counterspace. So we bought a medium-dark Formica with integral
backsplash and round front edge---no seams to collect water and swell
and look ugly. It's been about five years and the countertops look
great!

To those who suggest that it would have been worthwhile to put in the
extra money....in this area of the country, real estate is not nearly
as pricey as it is elsewhere. (An investment that is trivial for a
$250K house becomes less trivial when the house is valued under
$90K...)

Best -- Terry

"Terry" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
.. (An investment that is trivial for a
> $250K house becomes less trivial when the house is valued under
> $90K...)
>
> Best -- Terry

What truth that is.

I got so sick of walking into people's prize homes with acres of bland beige
marble and runways of granite counters I thought I'd barf.
I spend a lot of time in the kitchen so it was worth the money for something
that gives me joy everyday. It's not that big, so why not? Granite is
cheaper than marble here. I don't know why. Formica is cheapest of all.
As to which is the greenwst choice, I just don't know. I think you have to
decide based on wear potential, budget and personal aesthetics. I doubt
Consumer Reports could alter my choice.--
http://www.judithgreenwood.com

Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
> with, and the current market. �The kitchen in the house we sold 6
> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. �We asked several different
> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. �They all said "nothing,
> you'll lose every penny you put in it." �

Exactly.

People don't buy a resale based on the owners decorating... no one
will pay a penny more based on counter material than they will for
wall treatments, flooring, lighting fixtures, etc... in fact it's not
the interior, 99pct of homes sell solely by curb appeal.. the price
range was already determined before the customer ever left the
realtor's office... you could have the taj mahal inside but if the
prospective buyer doesn't think the house looks attractive when they
first drive up it's already a done deal, they won't buy it at any
price, not even if you throw in a choice of new granite counters for
free. You will have a far better chance of getting a higher price by
spending $5,000 rejuvenating landscaping than spending $10,000 redoing
kitchen counters. I had expensive Brazilian Cherry hardwood floors
installed in my kitchen (real hardwood, not laminate), most people who
have seen it don't like it, they don't even like the idea of hardwood
floors for a kitchen, my kitchen floor is no asset to anyone but me,
but since I have no plans to ever move again I really don't care what
anyone thinks.... but had I planned to move in a few years I'd not
have done so dramatic an alteration can't take it with me and it's not
most people's taste. My dark hued wood floor could be a seller's
liability, so can someone's dark hued granite counters.... anytime you
decorate short term use light neutral colors, no one will appreciate
your navy bath tile (I actually had that done in a house, looked nice
in the showroom, don't do it). Just because you love the particular
granite you chose for your counters many will think your taste is
grotesque... your neighbors and friends won't tell you, least not to
your face. No prospective home buyer will make an offer based on your
counters, simply because they're your counters, you chose them and
they have special personal value to you but the new people didn't
choose them therefore they have no special value whatsoever to them,
they're just kitchen counters. If you like it buy it and enjoy it,
just don't expect your taste to appeal to others by transference.
Actually you'll get more real estate mileage from a $10 flat of
annuals planted by your front entry than you will from the priciest
granite counters.

The things that bring the best price for a house cost nothing; no
clutter, no schmutz, no stench, no pets, no people. Those who come to
look at a home to buy don't even look at your things (unless you tell
them the furnishings stay, and then they may think your stuff is crap
and lower their offer to cover having it hauled away). They spend
most of their time there (15 minutes tops) looking at the view from
all the windows (make sure your window glass is sparkling clean inside
and out) and checking out storage space (closets, basement, garage).
Ten minutes after they leave they won't remember anything about your
kitchen except perhaps that it was too dark, they won't connect it was
your dark counters, dark cabinets, poor lighting, and little
daylight... it will leave them with a negative feeling... few people
want a kithen with the atmosphere of a dingy barroom no matter how
much your counters cost. They'll spend their last few moments
checking out how your house looks from the curb and the general
appearance of the neighbor's homes, that's about all they'll
remember. People buy a house based on how it *feels*, not on
tangibles. People already know what they want in a home before they
begin looking; LOCATION, asking price, lot size, house style, number
of bedrooms/baths, formal dining room, garage capacity... no one buys
or turns down a house by kitchen counters, those can easily be
changed, you can't change LOCATION, how the house sets on the lot, or
how the rooms are laid out/how movement flows. People shopping in the
higher price ranges expect higher quality throughout, they don't
expect low end tires on a Lexus, they won't pay a cent more for
granite counters than they will for better quality windows, doors,
moldings, etc. But if you put expensive components into a house in a
neighborhood of lower grade housing be prepared to lose the total cost
of all your upgrades the same as putting Pirellis on a Yugo... if you
live in a doublewide trailer granite counters won't bring one cent
more than if you have plywood counters. If your home is in the $500K
range your granite counters won't mean a fly speck in the selling
price. It's all relative.

SHELDON

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 11:23:22 -0500, "Dee.Dee" >
wrote:

>
>"Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
.. .

>> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
>> with, and the current market. The kitchen in the house we sold 6
>> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. We asked several different
>> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. They all said "nothing,
>> you'll lose every penny you put in it."
>>
>> Lou

>Did you agree with the realtors after you sold it?

Absolutely.

> Lots of times people like to do their kitchen in their own style.

Yep.

>We redid minimally a kitchen in 1993, bought medium-end cabinets and
>formica - it already had nice wood floors. DH did all the installation. It
>did look better than previously. The persons who bought it loved it! The
>kitchen was not good previously. Prices had gone up so much that we sold
>the house for exactly double what he had bought it for 5 years previously.
>I feel that we got that price in part because of the kitchen.

Real Estate is in a "correction" period at the moment. That's why I
mentioned market, and neighborhood. We were already priced at the
high end of the neighborhood. The days of doubling your money in 5
years are over. There's just too many houses on the market now. We
paid 187 for it and got 250, and feel lucky we got that because we
didn't want to be there anymore. That was in 5 years also. Realtors
said a bathroom in the basement might improve the traffic looking at
the house, but the increase in the selling price wasn't even close to
the hassle and cost of tearing up the concrete. We're happy. Glad
your deal went so well.

Lou

mick murphy > wrote:
>
> there's the t.v. show i'd like to see:
>
> 'we've come to rip out your beautiful granite counters and put in
> cruddy formica! �and it won't cost you a cent...'

You want granite... have I got a deal for you...


---= MARTIN'S MORTUARY =---


Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. . . .


SHELDON

On Dec 11, 3:19�pm, Janet Baraclough >
wrote:
> The message >
> from Goomba38 > contains these words:
>
> > Janet Baraclough wrote:
> > >> I'll second that. �We're building in Texas and if I put in Formica, I'd
> > >> never be able to re-sell.
>
> > > � �That doesn't say much for the rest of the house.
>
> > > � �I think you will find, that �"most homes built today" �outside Texas,
> > > do not slavishly ape Texas (hard as that may be, for Texans to imagine).
>
> > > � �Janet.
> > Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
> > goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
> > ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
> > whatever.....?
>
> � �In this country, nobody regards those shows as representative of �how
> people actually live; they are almost invariably demonstrating �a cheap
> quick fix.
>
> �REAL business, such as kitchen showrooms, builders yards, DIY sheds
> etc, still sell a huge amount of plastic worktop, still fit it, and
> still have demo-kitchens made up with it. The vast majority of �builders
> putting up new housing developments,, install plastic worktop and ss
> sinks as standard.

Don't let anyone BS you, the vast majority of new housing in the US is
built with plastic laminate counters too, that's the standard...
anyone who want's something more costly pays extra for custom made...
it costs less to take the builder's standard and upgrade later on your
own, builders here take buyers to the cleaners with upgrades... it
costs less to do most fixture upgrades on your own, and you will have
more time to do research to find out what you really want then to
settle for what the builder can supply quickly through their
contacts. It costs less to let the builder add extra electricals and
plumbing while the house is being built, especially outdoor wiring and
plumbing, but not things like countertops, lighting fixtures,
flooring, and such... anything that can be added after the house is
finished without having to tear stuff apart will cost less doing your
own contracting later, you'll get a better job too. Builders take
advantage knowing thst most people having new construction also have
little patience, by the time they get to teh finishing they have zero
patience... and by then the builder knows you and your wallet better
than you do.

> >Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
> > makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
>
> � �Not necessarily. It depends on what you spend on the kitchen
> proportional to the value of �the building and similar ones nearby..
> Installing a luxury kitchen costing 100,000 into one small cheap house
> in a development of identical small cheap houses, �will not increase the
> �market value of that house by 200,000.
>
> � �Janet.

Used kitchens don't increase selling price regardless how much one
spends on upgrades... the best price one can hope for is the price
comparable houses in thast area sold for recently... you're selling
the entire house as a package, you're not selling the kitchen counters
separately... you have as much chance or recouping the money you spent
on granite counters after using them for a few years as you do with
your expensive shoes after wearing them for a few years... there is
nothing rare about granite (it is not a gemstone), granite counters
depreciate with use... when ten years later they go out of fashion
they're worth no more than patio blocks... and if you happen to
accidently drop a pot and crack the slab of granite it's then worth
less than plastic laminate with burn mark... Formica can get you a
brand new section from the same lot, can't do that with natural stone.

SHELDON

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 09:58:26 -0800 (PST), Sheldon >
wrote:

>Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
>> with, and the current market. ?The kitchen in the house we sold 6
>> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. ?We asked several different
>> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. ?They all said "nothing,
>> you'll lose every penny you put in it." ?
>
>Exactly.

>The things that bring the best price for a house cost nothing; no
>clutter, no schmutz, no stench, no pets, no people.
>SHELDON

Yup. We moved 50% of our stuff before we listed and I painted the
bedroom ceilings and walls white. I pulled the carpeting because we
discovered there was hardwood under it. After the 4 month contract
was up we pulled it off the market for 90 days so the MLS listing
would reset to zero. During that time I painted the rest of the
house. Everything was bright white. There wasn't one nail hole in the
entire house. There was minimal furniture and we had our bed and a
futon. We moved our bed into one of the smaller rooms and left the
master bedroom empty. The dog was only allowed in the house through
the basement door and had to stay in the mud room. I cooked outside
on the grill. The house was spotless. A few weeks before it was time
to put it back up I trimmed all the bushes and trees. We planted
flowers and manicured the lawn. The neighbors asked me if I was
putting in a putting green.

When we re-listed we had more showings in the first week than we had
the previous 4 months. During the two months not one single feedback
said anything about the kitchen. The clean bright interior was
mentioned all the time as well as the beautiful yard. If we had done
anything in the kitchen other than spend money and time on paint it
would have been very foolish.

If we had planned on staying there I'd tear that kitchen apart in a
heartbeat, but that was never the plan with that house.

Lou

Lou Decruss wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
> >Lou Decruss wrote:
>
> >> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
> >> with, and the current market. ?The kitchen in the house we sold 6
> >> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. ?We asked several different
> >> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. ?They all said "nothing,
> >> you'll lose every penny you put in it." ?
>
> >Exactly.
> >The things that bring the best price for a house cost nothing; no
> >clutter, no schmutz, no stench, no pets, no people. �
> >SHELDON
>
> Yup. �We moved 50% of our stuff before we listed and I painted the
> bedroom ceilings and walls white. �I pulled the carpeting because we
> discovered there was hardwood under it. �After the 4 month contract
> was up we pulled it off the market for 90 days so the MLS listing
> would reset to zero. �During that time I painted the rest of the
> house. Everything was bright white. �There wasn't one nail hole in the
> entire house. There was minimal furniture and we had our bed and a
> futon. �We moved our bed into one of the smaller rooms and left the
> master bedroom empty. �The dog was only allowed in the house through
> the basement door and had to stay in the mud room. �I cooked outside
> on the grill. �The house was spotless. �A few weeks before it was time
> to put it back up I trimmed all the bushes and trees. �We planted
> flowers and manicured the lawn. �The neighbors asked me if I was
> putting in a putting green. � � � �
>
> When we re-listed we had more showings in the first week than we had
> the previous 4 months. � During the two months not one single feedback
> said anything about the kitchen. �The clean bright interior was
> mentioned all the time as well as the beautiful yard. �If we had done
> anything in the kitchen other than spend money and time on paint it
> would have been very foolish.
>
> If we had planned on staying there I'd tear that kitchen apart in a
> heartbeat, but that was never the plan with that house. �
>
> Lou � �

When I first saw this house five years ago it was spotless,
scrupulously clean, but I could see the kitchen hadn't been upgraded
in many years, the electric stove was about 30 yers old, the fridge
the same and wasn't very large and was a bottom rung model with wire
shelves, the dishwasher was ancient (found out later it didn't work),
the double stainless steel sink was ancient, probably original (45
yrs). But the original cabinetry is first class, all hand made by one
of their uncles (Norwegian carpenter), all solid hardwood with a
veneer all from one sycamore tree off this property, same as all the
paneling and doors, in fact every stick of lumber in this house came
from trees on this property, all full dimension lumber (a 2" X 4"
actually measures 2" X 4") all properly kiln dried, not a lick of
plywood or particle board, all sheathing is lapstrake tongue and
groove, all the floors except for the kitchen were oak. A lot was old
and needed modernizing but the basic house is built like the
proverbial brick shit house... Norwegians sure know how to build
houses. The fellow who did all the hardwood flooring was retired but
his son took over, I had him put in the new kitchen floor, a perfect
job. Don't even think about installing a hardwood floor yourself...
this guy knows his stuff, and you can't rent a floor sander that can
begin to compete with his $100,000 laser guided monster.

I changed all the appliances and installed a new sink but my
countertops are daffodil yellow laminate, and I love them.

SHELDON

Lou Decruss wrote:

>> Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
>> goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
>> ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
>> whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>> makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
>
> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
> with, and the current market. The kitchen in the house we sold 6
> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. We asked several different
> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. They all said "nothing,
> you'll lose every penny you put in it."
>
> Lou

Odd and contrary to everything I read or see about home renovations.
Could it be for another reason such as overpricing the house above what
the neighborhood can stand?

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 16:43:39 -0800 (PST), Sheldon wrote:

> To me plastic laminate countertops make more sense, you can change
> your countertop five times and still not spend the cost of granite.
> With granite unless you are independantly wealthy you need to live
> with the same look your entire lifetime or move, and then you will not
> recoupe any more money for used granite counters as you will for used
> plastic laminate counters. And plastic laminate is no longer your
> mother's old Formica: http://formica.com/publish/site/na/us/en/index.html
>
> Sheldon

It makes more sense to you and since you have plastic laminate ..I approve.
I have seen the pictures of your counter tops and they are your mother's
old Formica. Your arguments about the need to change natural stone
counters on some regular frequency are about as valid as the need to change
brick or stone facades on some frequency. Natural stone is timeless. It
is obvious that your plastic has not been changed since birth. One could
argue that because you spent $$$$$$$ money on a HUMMER size/price tractor
for a relatively tiny piece of dirt is an IQ problem or that your Range
Rover is all about status and ain't working as a women magnet.. another IQ
problem.

Your experience marketing real estate is limited to how many sales? A
timely real estate sale is all about price and nothing else. If the price
is right a sale will occur.

A savvy owner/seller will know their market and understand what changes or
adjustments to the property should occur for a successful and timely sale.
If they don't they should consult a professional that does.

It sounds like you really want some different counters and would like to
afford granite or some other natural stone. If that is not the case or you
are *short* .. take a look at the link you posted. It is time for a
change!


JAY

On Tue, 11 Dec 2007 23:42:42 -0500, Goomba38 >
wrote:

>Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>>> Perhaps not but I can't think of any decorating or home repair show that
>>> goes out of their way to ever use Formica anymore? They all talk about
>>> ripping out substandard styled kitchen counters and getting granite or
>>> whatever.....? Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>>> makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
>>
>> That depends on the neighborhood, what the house looks like to begin
>> with, and the current market. The kitchen in the house we sold 6
>> months ago had a rather outdated kitchen. We asked several different
>> realtors what we should do with the kitchen. They all said "nothing,
>> you'll lose every penny you put in it."
>>
>> Lou
>
>Odd and contrary to everything I read or see about home renovations.
>Could it be for another reason such as overpricing the house above what
>the neighborhood can stand?

Exactly. This house was in a lower middle class neighborhood.
Upgraded counter tops might have helped the house sell faster, but
would have had no influence on the price.

lou

Lou Decruss wrote:
>

> >
> >Odd and contrary to everything I read or see about home renovations.
> >Could it be for another reason such as overpricing the house above what
> >the neighborhood can stand?
>
> Exactly. This house was in a lower middle class neighborhood.
> Upgraded counter tops might have helped the house sell faster, but
> would have had no influence on the price.

If a house has no kitchen, adding one would increase the value. The same
goes for bathrooms and additional facilities. Taking a shabby little
kitchen, expanding it and putting in a proper kitchen should add some
value, but as you say, upgrading a counter top when there already was one
is not going to add value. For that matter, people moving in may not even
like the countertop you put in.

On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 08:24:44 -0600, jay > wrote:


>It sounds like you really want some different counters and would like to
>afford granite or some other natural stone. If that is not the case or you
>are *short* .. take a look at the link you posted. It is time for a
>change!
>
>
>JAY

Shendon has made a few valid points on the resale value of
improvements, but his love for formica is ludicrous.

Lou

jay wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
> > To me plastic laminate countertops make more sense, you can change
> > your countertop five times and still not spend the cost of granite.
> > With granite unless you are independantly wealthy you need to live
> > with the same look your entire lifetime or move, and then you will not
> > recoupe any more money for used granite counters as you will for used
> > plastic laminate counters. �And plastic laminate is no longer your
> > mother's old Formica: �http://formica.com/publish/site/na/us/en/index.html
>
>
> It makes more sense to you and since you have plastic laminate ..I approve..
> I have seen the pictures of your counter tops and they are your mother's
> old Formica. �

We haven't seen your hovel, too embarrasssed, eh.

Your arguments about the need to change natural stone
> counters on some regular frequency are about as valid as the need to change
> brick or stone facades on some frequency. �Natural stone is timeless. �

That's my point, I don't want timeless... there's plenty of time for
timeless in the grave... life is way too short for timeless.

It
> is obvious that your plastic has not been changed since birth. �One could
> argue that because you spent $$$$$$$ money on a HUMMER size/price tractor
> for a relatively tiny piece of dirt is an IQ problem

You have no idea how much dirt I own or it's worth.


or that your Range
> Rover is all about status

My 1991 Lasndcruiser has nothing to do with status, it's old and dated
like many of my belongings... I bought it the first year it was
offered, there was no status attached to it then, in fact just the
opposite, it didn't cost much then either.


and ain't working as a women magnet.. another IQ
> problem.

I've had more than my fill of women, that's the last thing I need is
more women in my life... and real women ain't interested in symbolic
wealth... says something about the air headed sluts you persue.

> Your experience marketing real estate is limited to how many sales? �

A larger number than you can count on all your fingers and toes twice
over.

A
> timely real estate sale is all about price and nothing else. �If the price
> is right a sale will occur. �


Price is the least determining factor, that's why there are so many
foreclosures these days... most people over the last ten years have
purchased a house strictly on emotion... their eyes were bigger than
their wallets and their vision short sighted, and now they suffer the
consequences, screw em. Th emortgage brokers didn't consider houe
price, they only considered the borrowers ability to repay as loan,
strictly a gamble, they lost because they know zero about real estate,
the average loan officer is a wet behind the ears young snot who
doesn't own their own home either.

> A savvy owner/seller will know their market and understand what changes or
> adjustments to the property should occur for a successful and timely sale.
> If they don't they should consult a professional that does. �

Very few people working in real estate offices know anything about the
subject, most don't own their own home, never have, never will... the
typical RE sales associate is a single mother living from hand to
mouth... there can be a dozen sales reps relying totally on their one
broker to guide their every step, and very, very few RE brokers are
certified RE appraisers... RE appraisers don't sell real estate....
it's like new car sales people, very few actually own an automobile,
even the dealership owner typically doesn't own any automobile, the
bank owns all the cars on the lot and the one they drive is leased,
leased is rented, NOT owned... when tehe people you know seem to be
driving a new high end car every two years be well assured it's a
rental, leased is a rental. Very few people in the front of the auto
dealership know anything about vehicals, for that you need to speak to
service people in the back of the house... no different from a
restaurant. Keep one thing in mind always, if you're making payments
(on anything) you do NOT own it, it owns you! I own everything I
have... I have never paid a penny interest on a credit card my entire
life, I've never had a personal loan for an automoble or anything
else, all paid cash. I've collected scads of rent dollars on
properties the banks financed for me with your money LOL. But now I'm
retired, I don't owe anyone a cent and my cash assets draw far more
interest than I can possibly spend... every month I have money left
over, lots of it... thinking I can't afford granite counters is just
dumb (your assinine remarks simply indicate to me you're just
attempting to transfer your own poverty onto me), I can easily afford
an entire granite quarry.... would probably be a great investment
considering how many people with rocks in their heads have become
enamoured with the tombstone mentality well before their time.
Granite countertops are not so desirous as some seem to think It's a
fad for snobs, snobs always need to indulge themselves in a fad. Be
aware that the plastic laminate manufacturerers are doing very well, a
company like Formica is making more money than all the granite counter
companys put together. If I were to choose a different countertop
material I would choose stainless steel over granite, but than I'd
need to gut my entire kitchen and I like the warmth of all that fine
wood in my kitchen.

> It sounds like you really want some different counters and would like to
> afford granite or some other natural stone. �If that is not the case or you
> are *short* .. take a look at the link you posted. �It is time for a
> change!

If I wanted granite counters the price would be the last consideration
on my list, in fact price would not be a consideration. I don't like
the look of granite, it's austere and depressing, it reminds me of a
cemetary. I don't like stone/brick houses either, they look cold and
uninviting, like death... and stone/brick veneer is worthless, as you
say a "facade"/a sham, it's primarilly the choice of snobbish
pretentious guineas. I like my yellow house, or it would be no biggie
to change the color... my barn is yellow too, I have no intention of
painting it a different color... even my little rental house is
yellow, and its detached garage is yellow, those are staying yellow
too. I much prefer my happy yellow retro, in fact I like that yellow
so much that when I decide to change counters I'll most likely choose
a similar retro yellow again. My last house was different shades of
grey, its roof, its siding, its baths, its kitchen, even its stone
patio, all greys... harsh and dreary like granite... wtf was I
thinking. My kitchen only has 30 sq ft of counter space, regardless
what material I choose it wouldn't cost very much... for me that's
petty cash... I keep that kind of cash in my wallet at all times as
mad money. I own fountain pens where just one is worth more than an
entire granite counter job... and they make granite fountain pens but
I don't want one. If I don't have something it's only because I don't
want it. And anyway, not everything desirous is equated with dollars,
unless you're a snob. Don't pretend you know me, none of yoose do.


SHELDON

Janet Baraclough > wrote:

>from Goomba38 > contains these words:

>>Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
>> makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.

> Not necessarily. It depends on what you spend on the kitchen
>proportional to the value of the building and similar ones nearby.
>Installing a luxury kitchen costing 100,000 into one small cheap house
>in a development of identical small cheap houses, will not increase the
> market value of that house by 200,000.

I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.

The top of the list was adding an additional bathroom, which
doubles your money. Breakeven or a little better is adding
a room, or adding a garage.

The rationale, I think, is that kitchen preferences are
highly individual and what might seem valuable to the
person who specified the remodeling will not impress
the average buyer.

Steve
Steve

On Dec 12, 1:15�pm, (Steve Pope) wrote:
> Janet Baraclough > wrote:
>
> >from Goomba38 > contains these words:
> >>Supposedly almost every penny put into a good kitchen
> >> makeover will come back to you, perhaps 1.5 to 2 times so even.
> > Not necessarily. It depends on what you spend on the kitchen
> >proportional to the value of �the building and similar ones nearby.
> >Installing a luxury kitchen costing 100,000 into one small cheap house
> >in a development of identical small cheap houses, �will not increase the
> > market value of that house by 200,000.
>
> I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
> return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.
>
> The top of the list was adding an additional bathroom, which
> doubles your money. �Breakeven or a little better is adding
> a room, or adding a garage.
>
> The rationale, I think, is that kitchen preferences are
> highly individual and what might seem valuable to the
> person who specified the remodeling will not impress
> the average buyer.
>
> Steve
> Steve

This is true... you can add an entire master bedroom suite with
sumptuous bath for half the cost of a designer kitchen and five years
later get twice your investment back. Add a second kitchen of the
same caliber and the return five years later is likely to be a
negative number... the return would be better putting that money into
a four season den. You can never have too many bathrooms and
closets. Why do you think real estate ads say contains a mother-
daughter apt _but can easily be converted back_... few, very few have
any use for that second kitchen, they'd much rather reclaim that
space. The single most costly portion of a kitchen is in the
appliances, but used appliances are worth very little. A walk-in
pantry will always give more return than the fanciest granite counters
no matter how much time passes... you could have purchased the most
expensive granite offered but to anyone else coming later it has no
more value than the least expensive granite, used. There are many
upgrades that will give a house far more return than granite counter
tops... granite is just common rock afer all, the most common rock on
the planet.... most granite is used crushed as roadway bedding. You'd
get a much higher return putting the same money into granite for a
small rock garden and koi pond.

SHELDON

Steve Pope wrote:

> I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
> return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.
>

That is contrary to everything I've ever read or seen.
http://www.realtor.org/press_room/ne...value2005.html

The following is the reprint of the Consumer's Reports article that ran
recently. Pretty common sense but may be of interest to those who are
considering any of the following...

http://www.chathamjournal.com/weekly...pe-70731.shtml

Goomba38 > wrote:

>Steve Pope wrote:

>> I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
>> return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.

>That is contrary to everything I've ever read or seen.
>http://www.realtor.org/press_room/ne...value2005.html

Perhaps my information is old then; the above article says
in 2002 a kitchen remodel would return only $0.66 on the
dollar; but it's improved since then.

Thanks for the data.

Steve

On Dec 12, 2:26�pm, Goomba38 > wrote:
> Steve Pope wrote:
> > I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
> > return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.
>
> That is contrary to everything I've ever read or seen.http://www.realtor.org/press_room/ne...ostvsvalue2005....

Your article says you lose money on a kitchen remodel.

"Many homeowners who complete midrange bathroom remodels can expect to
make money; the cost on a national average for this project is
$10,499, and the return is $10,727, or 102.2 percent, compared with
87.5 percent in 2002. On average, major midrange kitchen remodels cost
$43,862 and return $39,920, or 91 percent of the costs to remodel."

Sheldon > wrote:

> Goomba writes

>> Steve Pope wrote:

>>> I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
>>> return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.

>> That is contrary to everything I've ever read or
>> seen.http://www.realtor.org/press_room/ne...ostvsvalue2005....

>Your article says you lose money on a kitchen remodel.

>"Many homeowners who complete midrange bathroom remodels can expect to
>make money; the cost on a national average for this project is
>$10,499, and the return is $10,727, or 102.2 percent, compared with
>87.5 percent in 2002. On average, major midrange kitchen remodels cost
>$43,862 and return $39,920, or 91 percent of the costs to remodel."

Right, the article basically says the return on a kitchen remodel
improved from negative 40% in 2002 to negative 10% in 2005.
But since 2005 was the middle of the boom, any sort of return
measured that year is inflated. The historical number and long-term
average is probably more like the negative 40% figure.

Steve

"Steve Pope" > wrote

> Goomba38 > wrote:
>
>>Steve Pope wrote:
>
>>> I have always heard that kitchen remodeling has the lowest
>>> return of any major upgrade, about $0.50 on the dollar.
>
>>That is contrary to everything I've ever read or seen.
>>http://www.realtor.org/press_room/ne...value2005.html
>
> Perhaps my information is old then; the above article says
> in 2002 a kitchen remodel would return only $0.66 on the
> dollar; but it's improved since then.

I hear realtors say that kitchens and bathrooms sell houses. I can
see that because those are costly remodels that home buyers might
not want to do. I think if you have a hell hole in place of a kitchen,
it might be worth putting some money into it if you want to sell above
fixer-upper prices.

nancy

Nancy Young > wrote:

>"Steve Pope" > wrote

>> Perhaps my information is old then; the above article says
>> in 2002 a kitchen remodel would return only $0.66 on the
>> dollar; but it's improved since then.

>I hear realtors say that kitchens and bathrooms sell houses. I can
>see that because those are costly remodels that home buyers might
>not want to do. I think if you have a hell hole in place of a kitchen,
>it might be worth putting some money into it if you want to sell above
>fixer-upper prices.

Sure, but I think the first $5000 spent on a kitchen buys
you more than the next $50,000. New sheet vinyl, paint/wallpaper,
and repair anything obviously broken.

We spent just $2000 fixing up our kitchen, but in retrospect
I should have hired a pro to do the wallpaper. I will never,
ever do wallpaper again. ;-)

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
>
> Right, the article basically says the return on a kitchen remodel
> improved from negative 40% in 2002 to negative 10% in 2005.
> But since 2005 was the middle of the boom, any sort of return
> measured that year is inflated. The historical number and
> long-term average is probably more like the negative 40% figure.

I should write an article explaining that defrosting
your refrigerator returns minus 10% of the value of
a typical person's labor, while cleaning the toilet
returns an astounding minus 40%. :-)