http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/

"Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/


"Authorities said the video showed workers kicking, shocking and otherwise
abusing "downer" animals that were apparently too sick or injured to walk
into the slaughterhouse. Some animals had water forced down their throats,
San Bernardino County prosecutor Michael Ramos said."


Future Blackwater employees.

"Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/

I agree--pretty disturbing.

I still can't eat beef after watching the movie Fast Food Nation last week.

Mary

"Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
...
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/

Did you notice that they are Holstein dairy cattle? Yep, that's what happens
to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
hamburger and lunchmeat.
:-(

In article >, Lou Decruss
> wrote:

> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/

I saw something as disturbing as this on Drudge Report a few weeks ago.
It was a national big-box pet store that had pets neutered without
anesthesia (video shot by an employee - apparently someone with a
conscience).

We'll likely see more and more of these kinds of practices as time goes
on and we take a cut in out standard of living. What cost cutting
measures in the way of animal abuse do you suppose take place when
people complain to stores about having to pay so much more now for
groceries? Cost cutting in animal-related businesses always hits
animals first and hardest.

Can anyone today imagine the animal abuse that existed before
motorized/mechanized industry? Horses... well, use your imagination,
you see how people treat their pets sometimes and wonder just how
inured to suffering folks were who depended on animal power to make a
profit? How humane were the workers and owners at rendering plants and
feed lots (hint: read Upton Sinclair - The Jungle)?

I remember a neighbor who had a donkey for his young girls to ride. In
the winter, in the cold rain and sometimes snow and ice, with no cover
not even a tree, that animal used to bray through the night for help.
Asked about it, the guy said, "It'll toughen him up."

Animal control and said they could do nothing because the county had
cut their contract back to include only the removal of dead animals
from roads. I called the sheriff and they said that they aren't doing
animal complaints because there have so much business to attend to in
their own cost-cutting environment. I was told they aren't rolling
expensive equipment, highly trained (college educated police academy
trained) personnel on animal complaints. After asking, "what if I went
over there and took care of the problem myself?" Ten minutes later I
had two deputies on my doorstep with hands on pistols to ask me what I
meant (but they still wouldn't go next door to ask the guy about his
animal).

I'd guess that we'll have to get used to animal cruelty because it's so
low on the horizon of so many people and agencies when cost becomes a
factor, which it is and will increasingly become so in the future, I'm
sorry to have to predict.
I saw something as disturbing as this on Drudge Report a few weeks ago.
It was a national big-box pet store that had pets neutered without
anesthesia (video shot by an employee - apparently someone with a
conscience).

We'll likely see more and more of these kinds of practices as time goes
on and we take a cut in out standard of living. What cost cutting
measures in the way of animal abuse do you suppose take place when
people complain to stores about having to pay so much more now for
groceries? Cost cutting in animal-related businesses always hits
animals first and hardest.

Can anyone today imagine the animal abuse that existed before
motorized/mechanixed industry? Horses... well, use your imagination,
you see how people treat their pets sometimes and wonder just how
inured to suffering folks were who depended on animal power to make a
profit? How humane were the workers and owners at rendering plants and
feed lots (hint: read Upton Sinclair - The Jungle)?

I remember a neighbor who had a donkey for his young girls to ride. In
the winter, in the cold rain and sometimes snow and ice, with no cover
not even a tree, that animal used to bray through the night for help.
Asked about it, the guy said, "It'll toughen him up."

Animal control and said they could do nothing because the county had
cut their contract back to include only the removal of dead animals
from roads. I called the sheriff and they said that they aren't doing
animal complaints because there have so much business to attend to in
their own cost-cutting environment. I was told they aren't rolling
expensive equipment, highly trained (college educated police academy
trained) personnel on animal complaints. After asking, "what if I went
over there and took care of the problem myself?" Ten minutes later I
had two deputies on my doorstep with hands on pistols to ask me what I
meant (but they still wouldn't go next door to ask the guy about his
animal).

I'd guess that we'll have to get used to animal cruelty because it's so
low on the horizon of so many people and agencies when cost becomes a
factor, which it is and will increasingly become so in the future, I'm
sorry to have to predict.



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



In article >, Sqwertz
> wrote:

> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:53:55 GMT, JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>
> > "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
> >
> > "Authorities said the video showed workers kicking, shocking and otherwise
> > abusing "downer" animals that were apparently too sick or injured to walk
> > into the slaughterhouse. Some animals had water forced down their throats,
> > San Bernardino County prosecutor Michael Ramos said."
> >
> > Future Blackwater employees.
>
> That video was seen by the Feds 3 weeks ago, yet it took them
> another 2-3 weeks to ask for a recall. This is their usual MO.
> (Assuming this is the video I think it is - I didn't click the
> link).
>
> -sw

On Feb 18, 11:28*am, "deja.blues" > wrote:
> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> >http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>
> Did you notice that they are Holstein dairy cattle? Yep, that's what happens
> to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> hamburger and lunchmeat.
> :-(


The media shots of the abuse on these animals was enough to send me
down to a little Hindu vegetarian restaurant for lunch today.

Alas, I forgot it was Monday, and they aren't open today! I came back
home, and made a salad instead!

Seriously though - there is much to be concerned about! It appears
the USDA isn't doing it's job of protecting the public! I realize
there's a lot of beef that gets slaughtered and sent to market, and
they can't be everywhere at once!

But it's enough to give us all cause for concern!

Myrl Jeffcoat

"deja.blues" wrote:
>
> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>
> Did you notice that they are Holstein dairy cattle? Yep, that's what happens
> to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> hamburger and lunchmeat.
> :-(

Did you think they just got turned loose on the open range or something?
Same with the chickens, no more eggs = no more chicken. If it's not
producing food, it becomes food.

In article
>,
Myrl Jeffcoat > wrote:

> Seriously though - there is much to be concerned about! It appears
> the USDA isn't doing it's job of protecting the public! I realize
> there's a lot of beef that gets slaughtered and sent to market, and
> they can't be everywhere at once!
>
> But it's enough to give us all cause for concern!
>
> Myrl Jeffcoat

Most agencies are serving industry now since Frank Burns... er, sorry,
I meant George Bush, and his band of neocons and supporters from the
other party took over Congress and the White House. Well, they were
serving industry before, but not to the extent they are now. Find me
an agency that doesn't have an industry hack at the helm, or at least
someone who has risen to his or her level of incompetence. News
stories abound where these people just flat out lie to Congress or
suddenly have a significant failing of memory whenever shocking news
comes out about them or their practices.

Personally, I think we've lost this government (except that law
enforcement seems to be in a golden age) and I don't see any change on
the horizon with any of the candidates. Ron Paul has the best answer
(if you're willing and prepared to weather a depression) - dismantle
the regulatory agencies. At least then, after another president comes
into power, we'd have an opportunity to rebuild the regulatory agencies
with mandates to serve the public interest and not be so swayed by
industry influence. I think we'll have the depression, Ron Paul or no.
At least he'll bring it on and we can get on with the business of
recovery.

All of this regulatory malfeasance toward us and misfeasance done in
cahoots with industry is sure to affect our food supply. One of my
issues is the hybridization of trees, which means they are suited (say,
in terms of pests and diseases) for specific climatic conditions. With
changing conditions, whole forests are open to destruction. The same
goes for food crops. Is this going to be a bad year in the northern
hemisphere, or will it be next year, or will it go on and on? China is
predicting crop failures due to the hard winter and drought. Our own
midwest is heavily dependent on corporate farms that use specialized
fertilizers and hybridized plants. Is anyone else hearing rumors of
famine? Famine probably won't happen here, but people will go hungry
because they can't afford eggs at $5/doz., bread at $5/loaf, chicken at
$5/lb., and beef at... the sky is the limit.

I'm tellin' yuh, I'm going to need those social security checks when
they arrive this year. But I have no illusions about prices expanding
to consume that increase in my retirement income (which is a variation
of Parkinson's Law). The only question is how soon will it happen?

In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
"deja.blues" > wrote:

> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>
> Did you notice that they are Holstein dairy cattle? Yep, that's what happens
> to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> hamburger and lunchmeat.
> :-(

How is that any different from the way things were before factory
farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
retirement? Nope, she became dinner.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

In article >, Miche
> wrote:

> In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> "deja.blues" > wrote:
>
> > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> > :-(
>
> How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> retirement? Nope, she became dinner.

Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
both of us, but to take up the point...

It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
which the turning-into takes place. I think it's quite different for a
farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
extreme trauma.

Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
of their lives. I'll bet if they could say so, they'd say they're glad
to die but please don't make me suffer it.

Shame on humanity because humanity is conspicuously absent in this
regard. The Germans and Japanese of WW-II have nothing on us when it
comes to prisoner and death camps. Is it any different if it's people
or animals in them? because it's the business of suffering either way.

In article <180220081407375086%ouchimbleeding@ouchimbleeding. com>,
dull knife > wrote:

> In article >, Miche
> > wrote:
>
> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
> >
> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> > > :-(
> >
> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
>
> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> both of us, but to take up the point...
>
> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
> which the turning-into takes place.

Oh, I know _that_. I was just amused by the idea that people might have
thought that "obsolete" dairy cows _didn't_ get turned into dinner.

> I think it's quite different for a
> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
> extreme trauma.
>
> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
> of their lives. I'll bet if they could say so, they'd say they're glad
> to die but please don't make me suffer it.

Not in New Zealand they dont. Beef cattle here are free-range and
grass-fed.

There may be a commercial grain feedlot or two here but if there is, I
don't know where.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

dull knife wrote:
> In article >, Miche
> > wrote:
>
>> In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
>> "deja.blues" > wrote:
>>
>>> to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
>>> hamburger and lunchmeat.
>>> :-(
>> How is that any different from the way things were before factory
>> farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
>> retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
>
> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> both of us, but to take up the point...
>
Well, you seem intent on making it all some political plot rather than
just inhumane business practices. It ain't new, I'm sure!
My grandmother used to think leftovers (to include jello!) was
appropriate pet food. Now we don't.

Pete C. wrote:

> "deja.blues" wrote:
>>
>> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>>
>> Did you notice that they are Holstein dairy cattle? Yep, that's what happens
>> to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
>> hamburger and lunchmeat.
>> :-(
>
> Did you think they just got turned loose on the open range or something?

They don't get put out to stud? No, wait...that's not right.


--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

MareCat wrote:

> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>
> I agree--pretty disturbing.
>
> I still can't eat beef after watching the movie Fast Food Nation last week.

It's best to be selective......about what you watch.


--
Blinky
Killing all posts from Google Groups
The Usenet Improvement Project: http://improve-usenet.org
Blinky: http://blinkynet.net

dull knife wrote:
>
> In article >, Miche
> > wrote:
>
> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
> >
> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> > > :-(
> >
> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
>
> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> both of us, but to take up the point...
>
> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
> which the turning-into takes place. I think it's quite different for a
> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
> extreme trauma.
>
> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
> of their lives.

Given that they are only around 12-13 months before they become burgers,
it's not exactly years of suffering.

"Pete C." > wrote in message
...
> dull knife wrote:
>>
>> In article >, Miche
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
>> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
>> >
>> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned
>> > > into
>> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
>> > > :-(
>> >
>> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
>> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
>> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
>>
>> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
>> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
>> both of us, but to take up the point...
>>
>> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
>> which the turning-into takes place. I think it's quite different for a
>> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
>> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
>> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
>> extreme trauma.
>>
>> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
>> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
>> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
>> of their lives.
>
> Given that they are only around 12-13 months before they become burgers,
> it's not exactly years of suffering.


Defective argument alert! That's like saying "This war's not so bad. A lot
more soldiers died in WWII."

"Blinky the Shark" > wrote in message
news
> MareCat wrote:
>
>> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>>
>> I agree--pretty disturbing.
>>
>> I still can't eat beef after watching the movie Fast Food Nation last
>> week.
>
> It's best to be selective......about what you watch.

I'm starting to get that idea--ignorance really IS bliss.

Mary

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in message
> ...
> > dull knife wrote:
> >>
> >> In article >, Miche
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> >> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned
> >> > > into
> >> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> >> > > :-(
> >> >
> >> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> >> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> >> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
> >>
> >> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> >> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> >> both of us, but to take up the point...
> >>
> >> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
> >> which the turning-into takes place. I think it's quite different for a
> >> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
> >> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
> >> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
> >> extreme trauma.
> >>
> >> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
> >> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
> >> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
> >> of their lives.
> >
> > Given that they are only around 12-13 months before they become burgers,
> > it's not exactly years of suffering.
>
> Defective argument alert! That's like saying "This war's not so bad. A lot
> more soldiers died in WWII."

That wasn't the point...

Myrl Jeffcoat > wrote in

oups.com:

> Seriously though - there is much to be concerned about! It
> appears the USDA isn't doing it's job of protecting the
> public! I realize there's a lot of beef that gets
> slaughtered and sent to market, and they can't be
> everywhere at once!

the head of the USDA is a cattleman buddy of Bush's. what do
you expect?
also Bush has cut the budget for slaughter house inspections
by almost half & cut the number of inspectors. he thinks other
things are more important.
lee

--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

In article >, Goomba38
> wrote:

> Well, you seem intent on making it all some political plot rather than
> just inhumane business practices.

It's going to be harder in the specific case of a specific offender
committing a specific offense, which is a court action they will dare
you to make so they can pile the $1000/hr. lawyers on you and forever
enjoy immunity from prosecution when the neocon Supreme Court rules in
their favor when they claim, "There's no concrete evidence that...
(whatever whatever you claim is harmful)"

It's easier to make the case that massive regulatory failure on all
fronts _is_ a kind of political plot, no matter how hard the agencies,
corporations and the administration with Congressional support try to
convince us that they need to cut budgets and let industries
self-regulate is in our best interests. The bad guys win in the end
because the corporate media will promote a version of their case that
defuses any organized opposition.

The trend is clear from well-known failures at all of the regulatory
agencies. Just the cutbacks on meat inspections are a notable failure
for consumers. The cutbacks to budgets and accommodations to industry
that have taken place _are_ a concerted effort to let companies have
their way with us. In those terms, it's a political plot.

And so the meat-industry spin begins...

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080218/slaug...buse.html?.v=8

Beef Industry Responds to Secret Video
Monday February 18, 9:41 pm ET
By Ivan Moreno, Associated Press Writer
Cattle Industry Denounces Mistreatment of Sick Animals; Says Nearly All
US Cattle Treated Well

DENVER (AP) -- Despite a secretly taped video showing workers at a
Southern California slaughterhouse abusing sick or crippled animals,
nearly all cattle bound for American dinner tables are treated
humanely, a cattle industry spokesman said Monday... etc., etc., etc.,
blah, blah, blah!

"Sqwertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:24:04 -0500, MareCat wrote:
>
>> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>>
>> I agree--pretty disturbing.
>>
>> I still can't eat beef after watching the movie Fast Food Nation last
>> week.
>
> The movie was a huge dud. Read the book.

How is the book different from the movie?

Mary

"Miche" > wrote in message
...
> In article <180220081407375086%ouchimbleeding@ouchimbleeding. com>,
> dull knife > wrote:
>
>> In article >, Miche
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
>> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
>> >
>> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned
>> > > into
>> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
>> > > :-(
>> >
>> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
>> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
>> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
>>
>> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
>> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
>> both of us, but to take up the point...
>>
>> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
>> which the turning-into takes place.
>
> Oh, I know _that_. I was just amused by the idea that people might have
> thought that "obsolete" dairy cows _didn't_ get turned into dinner.

I know this to be true, but the average milk-swilling consumer doesn't.

"Pete C." > wrote in message
...
> dull knife wrote:
>>
>> In article >, Miche
>> > wrote:
>>
>> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
>> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
>> >
>> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned
>> > > into
>> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
>> > > :-(
>> >
>> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
>> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
>> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
>>
>> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
>> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
>> both of us, but to take up the point...
>>
>> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
>> which the turning-into takes place. I think it's quite different for a
>> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
>> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
>> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
>> extreme trauma.
>>
>> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
>> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
>> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
>> of their lives.
>
> Given that they are only around 12-13 months before they become burgers,
> it's not exactly years of suffering.

Dairy cows can live to be 15 or so, but are usually taken off the line and
sent to slaughter at age 4.

"deja.blues" wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in message
> ...
> > dull knife wrote:
> >>
> >> In article >, Miche
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> >> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned
> >> > > into
> >> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> >> > > :-(
> >> >
> >> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> >> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> >> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
> >>
> >> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> >> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> >> both of us, but to take up the point...
> >>
> >> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
> >> which the turning-into takes place. I think it's quite different for a
> >> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
> >> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. The latter is rarely an experience
> >> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
> >> extreme trauma.
> >>
> >> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. The animals are
> >> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
> >> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
> >> of their lives.
> >
> > Given that they are only around 12-13 months before they become burgers,
> > it's not exactly years of suffering.
>
> Dairy cows can live to be 15 or so, but are usually taken off the line and
> sent to slaughter at age 4.

Yes, but the reference to the bad feed and whatnot relates to the meat
only animals that make it to their first birthday at best. Dairy cows
get very different feed and living conditions.

"deja.blues" wrote:
>
> "Miche" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article <180220081407375086%ouchimbleeding@ouchimbleeding. com>,
> > dull knife > wrote:
> >
> >> In article >, Miche
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> >> > "deja.blues" > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned
> >> > > into
> >> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> >> > > :-(
> >> >
> >> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> >> > farming? Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> >> > retirement? Nope, she became dinner.
> >>
> >> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> >> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> >> both of us, but to take up the point...
> >>
> >> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. It's the way in
> >> which the turning-into takes place.
> >
> > Oh, I know _that_. I was just amused by the idea that people might have
> > thought that "obsolete" dairy cows _didn't_ get turned into dinner.
>
> I know this to be true, but the average milk-swilling consumer doesn't.

That is is big problem overall, not just with animal derived foods, but
pretty much all foods. Far too many people have no understanding at all
or appreciation of where their food comes from.

Pete C. wrote:

> That is is big problem overall, not just with animal derived foods, but
> pretty much all foods. Far too many people have no understanding at all
> or appreciation of where their food comes from.

While that is pretty true, I also know that I'm going to eat something
if I want it anyway. Veal for example? Humane treatment would be ideal.

What is that saying? "I didn't get to the top of the food chain to be a
vegetarian" LOL

I work with a couple of nurses who own really, REALLY show expensive
horses. (one was 40k!!) and they've gone vegan because of what they
learned reading "Fast Food Nation" and in protest over how race horses
are bred. Hmmmmm. ok? <shrug>

Goomba38 wrote:
>
> Pete C. wrote:
>
> > That is is big problem overall, not just with animal derived foods, but
> > pretty much all foods. Far too many people have no understanding at all
> > or appreciation of where their food comes from.
>
> While that is pretty true, I also know that I'm going to eat something
> if I want it anyway. Veal for example? Humane treatment would be ideal.

"humane treatment" is a bit hard to define when the veal's life span is
a few months.

>
> What is that saying? "I didn't get to the top of the food chain to be a
> vegetarian" LOL

Vegetarians don't even qualify as human since humans are omnivores.

>
> I work with a couple of nurses who own really, REALLY show expensive
> horses. (one was 40k!!) and they've gone vegan because of what they
> learned reading "Fast Food Nation" and in protest over how race horses
> are bred. Hmmmmm. ok? <shrug>

Yea, typical more money than brains types who lack the critical thinking
skills to actually evaluate what they read and separate the fact from
the fiction. I hear horses are pretty tasty...

"Pete C." > wrote in
:

> Goomba38 wrote:
>>
>> Pete C. wrote:
>>
>> > That is is big problem overall, not just with animal
>> > derived foods, but pretty much all foods. Far too many
>> > people have no understanding at all or appreciation of
>> > where their food comes from.
>>
>> While that is pretty true, I also know that I'm going to
>> eat something if I want it anyway. Veal for example?
>> Humane treatment would be ideal.
>
> "humane treatment" is a bit hard to define when the veal's
> life span is a few months.

not really. keeping veal calves in groups of 3 or 4 in big box
stalls rather than individually in tiny crates is one way.
another is to keep the veal calves on the cow, but that is
only likely in small farm operations where the milk is not
primary. milk fed veal is much tastier than milk replacer fed
veal, too. oddly, those chemicals taint the flavor of the
meat...

>> What is that saying? "I didn't get to the top of the food
>> chain to be a vegetarian" LOL
>
> Vegetarians don't even qualify as human since humans are
> omnivores.

it's good to have choices, isn't it?
what really annoys me is humans that try to force their
dietary lifestyle choices on innocent pets. dogs & cats are
obligate omnivores. a cat forced to eat a vegetarian (or
worse, vegan) diet will be blind by one year old & likely die
by 2 years. dogs are a little more adaptable, but they are not
meant to be vegetarian.

>> I work with a couple of nurses who own really, REALLY show
>> expensive horses. (one was 40k!!) and they've gone vegan
>> because of what they learned reading "Fast Food Nation"
>> and in protest over how race horses are bred. Hmmmmm. ok?
>> <shrug>
>
> Yea, typical more money than brains types who lack the
> critical thinking skills to actually evaluate what they
> read and separate the fact from the fiction. I hear horses
> are pretty tasty...

they are, but in the US horses are "pets" & it's illegal to
eat them. considering the vast overbreeding of horses for PMU,
show horses & race horses, that's really a vast waste of
resources. i once mentioned thinking of making llama burgers
from my dumb-as-a-rock former stud and you'd have thought i
was some kind of monster that eats babies from the outcry!
it's an animal guys! if it's useless for it's purpose, it
might as well be food at least. fortunately for Russian he has
nice fiber, so he just got neutered instead of being invited
to dinner.

lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

enigma wrote:
>
> "Pete C." > wrote in
> :
>
> > Goomba38 wrote:
> >>
> >> Pete C. wrote:
> >>
> >> > That is is big problem overall, not just with animal
> >> > derived foods, but pretty much all foods. Far too many
> >> > people have no understanding at all or appreciation of
> >> > where their food comes from.
> >>
> >> While that is pretty true, I also know that I'm going to
> >> eat something if I want it anyway. Veal for example?
> >> Humane treatment would be ideal.
> >
> > "humane treatment" is a bit hard to define when the veal's
> > life span is a few months.
>
> not really. keeping veal calves in groups of 3 or 4 in big box
> stalls rather than individually in tiny crates is one way.
> another is to keep the veal calves on the cow, but that is
> only likely in small farm operations where the milk is not
> primary. milk fed veal is much tastier than milk replacer fed
> veal, too. oddly, those chemicals taint the flavor of the
> meat...

All the ones I've seen have been semi free range grazing on grass around
their individual oversized "dog houses".

>
> >> What is that saying? "I didn't get to the top of the food
> >> chain to be a vegetarian" LOL
> >
> > Vegetarians don't even qualify as human since humans are
> > omnivores.
>
> it's good to have choices, isn't it?
> what really annoys me is humans that try to force their
> dietary lifestyle choices on innocent pets. dogs & cats are
> obligate omnivores. a cat forced to eat a vegetarian (or
> worse, vegan) diet will be blind by one year old & likely die
> by 2 years. dogs are a little more adaptable, but they are not
> meant to be vegetarian.

Yes, at that point not only is the vegetarian / vegan not human, they
are actively abusing the very animals they profess to be so concerned
about the welfare of.

>
> >> I work with a couple of nurses who own really, REALLY show
> >> expensive horses. (one was 40k!!) and they've gone vegan
> >> because of what they learned reading "Fast Food Nation"
> >> and in protest over how race horses are bred. Hmmmmm. ok?
> >> <shrug>
> >
> > Yea, typical more money than brains types who lack the
> > critical thinking skills to actually evaluate what they
> > read and separate the fact from the fiction. I hear horses
> > are pretty tasty...
>
> they are, but in the US horses are "pets" & it's illegal to
> eat them. considering the vast overbreeding of horses for PMU,
> show horses & race horses, that's really a vast waste of
> resources. i once mentioned thinking of making llama burgers
> from my dumb-as-a-rock former stud and you'd have thought i
> was some kind of monster that eats babies from the outcry!
> it's an animal guys! if it's useless for it's purpose, it
> might as well be food at least. fortunately for Russian he has
> nice fiber, so he just got neutered instead of being invited
> to dinner.

Kill it and eat it is my motto. If you aren't going to eat it, you
probably shouldn't be killing it (unless it's attacking you or your
property) would be the logical extension of that motto.

In article >, enigma
> wrote:

> "Pete C." > wrote in
> :

> > read and separate the fact from the fiction. I hear horses
> > are pretty tasty...
>
> they are, but in the US horses are "pets" & it's illegal to
> eat them.

I hear the French eat horsemeat. That's enough right there to put me
off on it.

Do you know why the French like Swiss cheese? Because the holes give
them little places to hide.

Do you know why people live in the middle of France? I mean, right
smack in the middle of France? Because no matter which way they're
going, they're going out.

Oh, stop it! I love the French.

On Feb 18, 2:07*pm, dull knife >
wrote:
> In article >, Miche
>
> > wrote:
> > In article <f%kuj.6506$wG2.2695@trndny09>,
> > *"deja.blues" > wrote:
>
> > > to dear old Bossy when she can't give milk anymore. She gets turned into
> > > hamburger and lunchmeat.
> > > :-(
>
> > How is that any different from the way things were before factory
> > farming? *Do you think the house cow got to live out her days in happy
> > retirement? *Nope, she became dinner.
>
> Miche, don't get upset, now, but I'm going to ratchet this up a
> notch... not to pick on you because that could be a painful process for
> both of us, but to take up the point...
>
> It's not being turned into dinner that's the problem. *It's the way in
> which the turning-into takes place. *I think it's quite different for a
> farmer to turn "Old Bessie" into food versus having the same done at a
> corporate feedlot/slaughterhouse. *The latter is rarely an experience
> that anyone wants to witness or that any animal experiences without
> extreme trauma.
>
> Modern industrial meat production is extremely cruel. *The animals are
> fed daily with "stuff" that acidifies their digestive system so badly
> that many are ulcerated, have perforated organs, and live in agony all
> of their lives. *I'll bet if they could say so, they'd say they're glad
> to die but please don't make me suffer it. *
>
> Shame on humanity because humanity is conspicuously absent in this
> regard. *The Germans and Japanese of WW-II have nothing on us when it
> comes to prisoner and death camps. *Is it any different if it's people
> or animals in them? because it's the business of suffering either way.

I cannot drink milk after reading a report that basically said that
there is pus in milk. It's for baby cows, anyway...

> enigma wrote:

>>
>> they are, but in the US horses are "pets" & it's illegal to
>> eat them. considering the vast overbreeding of horses for PMU,
>> show horses & race horses, that's really a vast waste of
>> resources. i once mentioned thinking of making llama burgers
>> from my dumb-as-a-rock former stud and you'd have thought i
>> was some kind of monster that eats babies from the outcry!
>> it's an animal guys! if it's useless for it's purpose, it
>> might as well be food at least. fortunately for Russian he has
>> nice fiber, so he just got neutered instead of being invited
>> to dinner.

LOLOL

"Sqwertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 00:17:26 -0500, MareCat wrote:
>
>> "Sqwertz" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 14:24:04 -0500, MareCat wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Lou Decruss" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23212514/
>>>>
>>>> I agree--pretty disturbing.
>>>>
>>>> I still can't eat beef after watching the movie Fast Food Nation last
>>>> week.
>>>
>>> The movie was a huge dud. Read the book.
>>
>> How is the book different from the movie?
>
> It's non-fiction and full of real information. The movie was a
> superficial work of fiction in complete contrast to the book.
>
> I was surprised at the movie. I was expecting a documentary, not
> the plight of illegal Mexicans crossing the border to find work.

Me, too. With a name like Fast Food Nation, I was expecting something
similar to SuperSize Me.

At any rate, I found the movie to be quite disturbing (which is not
necessarily a bad thing). I'll have to check out the book.

Mary

In article >,
enigma > wrote:

> "Pete C." > wrote in
> :

> >> What is that saying? "I didn't get to the top of the food
> >> chain to be a vegetarian" LOL
> >
> > Vegetarians don't even qualify as human since humans are
> > omnivores.
>
> it's good to have choices, isn't it?
> what really annoys me is humans that try to force their
> dietary lifestyle choices on innocent pets. dogs & cats are
> obligate omnivores. a cat forced to eat a vegetarian (or
> worse, vegan) diet will be blind by one year old & likely die
> by 2 years. dogs are a little more adaptable, but they are not
> meant to be vegetarian.

A horror story (with a happy ending) about cats who were fed vegan cat
food:

http://tinyurl.com/2aof9v

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

In article <190220081009002453%ouchimbleeding@ouchimbleeding. com>,
dull knife > wrote:

> In article >, enigma
> > wrote:
>
> > "Pete C." > wrote in
> > :
>
> > > read and separate the fact from the fiction. I hear horses
> > > are pretty tasty...
> >
> > they are, but in the US horses are "pets" & it's illegal to
> > eat them.
>
> I hear the French eat horsemeat. That's enough right there to put me
> off on it.

So do the Dutch.

Miche

--
Electricians do it in three phases

Miche wrote:

>> I hear the French eat horsemeat. That's enough right there to put me
>> off on it.
>
> So do the Dutch.
>
> Miche
>

Yeah, I've heard of a few places that do. It doesn't bother me in the least.
Nor does the idea of Koreans eating dog. Why would we assume some
animals can be for eating and others not? They're all fair game if
someone wants to eat'em! Logistically though, I suspect an elephant
would be hard to prepare...?

Goomba38 wrote:
>
> Miche wrote:
>
> >> I hear the French eat horsemeat. That's enough right there to put me
> >> off on it.
> >
> > So do the Dutch.
> >
> > Miche
> >
>
> Yeah, I've heard of a few places that do. It doesn't bother me in the least.
> Nor does the idea of Koreans eating dog. Why would we assume some
> animals can be for eating and others not? They're all fair game if
> someone wants to eat'em!

It's all food.

> Logistically though, I suspect an elephant
> would be hard to prepare...?

That forklift they were moving the cows with would be handy for the
elephant roast...

Miche wrote on Wed, 20 Feb 2008 09:21:27 +1300:

??>> In article >,
??>> enigma > wrote:
??>>
??>>> "Pete C." > wrote in
??>>> :
??>>
??>>>> read and separate the fact from the fiction. I hear
??>>>> horses are pretty tasty...
??>>>
??>>> they are, but in the US horses are "pets" & it's illegal
??>>> to eat them.
??>>
??>> I hear the French eat horsemeat. That's enough right
??>> there to put me off on it.

M> So do the Dutch.

I haven't knowingly eaten horse but I think if we can eat the
more intelligent pig we shouldn't worry. Pigs can be pets too,
especially Pot-bellied Pigs, but I don't think there any laws
about eating them. I remember a very friendly one in Lahaina,
Maui.



James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:48:07 GMT, "Pete C." >
wrote:

>That forklift they were moving the cows with would be handy for the
>elephant roast...

LOLOL..

Lou