"Andy" <q> wrote in message ...
> Janet Baraclough said...
>
>> The message >
>> from Andy <q> contains these words:
>>
>>> jmcquown said...
>>
>>> > Neither was your comment that being deaf is a benefit, Andy.
>>> >
>>> > Jill
>>
>>
>>> You're not correct.
>>
>>> If you can ASL from 200 feet away, how is that a disadvantage?
>>
>> If it's dark, or the person you want to address is round the corner,
>> facing the other way, not wearing their glasses, or reading the paper,
>> the disadvantage is obvious.
>>
>> Janet
>
>
> You don't know ASL do you?
>
> Andy

What difference does it make?! Knowing ASL doesn't make you some kind of
wunderkind. And it doesn't change the fact that deafness is classified as a
disability under the ADA.

Jill

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 16:55:12 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>People like that give a bad name to those with legitimat problems, and we all
>know people like that.

Unfortunately, yes.

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:04:10 -0500, "cybercat" >
wrote:

>
>"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> "jmcquown" > wrote:
>>
>>> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>> >
>>> > "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
>>> >>
>>> > I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates at
>>> > all. There are some who truly need to be parking in those spaces.
>>> > Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and the aunt
>>> > has a placard to park in those places. Yes, she is 'handicapped' but
>>> > it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. She's a huge fan of
>>> > yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
>>> >
>>> > You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign off on
>>> > the
>>> > application and evidently hers is over liberal on the reasons for
>>> > using
>>> > one. Unethical, IMO. She does not have a mobility problem.
>>
>>> I have to agree, Ed. True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't mean
>>> the
>>> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.
>>
>>
>> And here we see the true colors of the personalities that Nancy was
>> posting about. People are *jealous* of the handicapped? Would Jill be
>> happy if some thug broke her legs in so many places that it couldn't be
>> fixed, and she too could park in a handicapped spot? I would rather
>> walk a little farther than be handicapped.
>>
>> --
>
>This is just one of many characteristics I absolutely loathe about Jill.
>
I'm confused, first Dan and now you are jumping all over her... for
what? What did she say that was so horrible?


--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:29:34 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>The bikes around here are worse than the cars. It is a wonder that more of
>them don't get killed. They rarely stop for stop signs.

Here too. They also are very bad about equipping their bikes with
reflective devices and wearing reflective clothing after dark. I've
been surprised more than once by a dark bike with a rider dressed in
black (after dark) seemingly coming from nowhere on busy city streets.

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Feb 24, 10:34*am, "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
> <sf> wrote in messagenews:9s23s35h3rpmk3g08d15nsp696e25k4avr@4ax .com...
> > On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 06:15:14 GMT, "Julie Bove" >
> > wrote:
>
> >>I haven't tried
> >>to get a handicapped sticker because too many times I have seen people
> >>being
> >>harassed for parking in there when they don't appear to be handicapped.
>
> > I have *never* seen anyone harassed for parking in a handicapped spot
> > just because they didn't "look" like they needed it. *In fact, I've
> > never seen anyone harassed at all. *Is this yet another example of
> > what people who say "it's not my place to judge" do?
>
> I harassed someone once. She pulled into the handicapped spot in a big
> 4-door Oldsmobile, the perfect car for old folks. The handicapped tag was on
> the rear view mirror. The twenty-something bitch bounced out of the car
> wearing an aerobics outfit. If she was handicapped, it must've been above
> the neck. I made a comment. It had no effect.

Maybe she was deaf?

"Foobar" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 24, 10:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
> <sf> wrote in messagenews:9s23s35h3rpmk3g08d15nsp696e25k4avr@4ax .com...
> > On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 06:15:14 GMT, "Julie Bove" >
> > wrote:
>
> >>I haven't tried
> >>to get a handicapped sticker because too many times I have seen people
> >>being
> >>harassed for parking in there when they don't appear to be handicapped.
>
> > I have *never* seen anyone harassed for parking in a handicapped spot
> > just because they didn't "look" like they needed it. In fact, I've
> > never seen anyone harassed at all. Is this yet another example of
> > what people who say "it's not my place to judge" do?
>
> I harassed someone once. She pulled into the handicapped spot in a big
> 4-door Oldsmobile, the perfect car for old folks. The handicapped tag was
> on
> the rear view mirror. The twenty-something bitch bounced out of the car
> wearing an aerobics outfit. If she was handicapped, it must've been above
> the neck. I made a comment. It had no effect.

Maybe she was deaf?

================


Who knows? But, I'm sure she understood.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

>
> I harassed someone once. She pulled into the handicapped spot in a big
> 4-door Oldsmobile, the perfect car for old folks. The handicapped tag was on
> the rear view mirror. The twenty-something bitch bounced out of the car
> wearing an aerobics outfit. If she was handicapped, it must've been above
> the neck. I made a comment. It had no effect.

Just recently someone emailed my a video clip, I think maybe it was a clip from
a Jim Carey movie (Me, Myself and Irene?) where he is parked in front of a
convenience store and a luxury convertible flies into a handicapped space, the
driver hops out of the car and runs into the store. The Carey character trashes
the car, dumps garbage into the interier and smashes the windshield with the
trash can. Then he jumps up and dances on the hood. Then the driver
reappears.....escorting an old man with a walker.

In article >, sf wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:04:10 -0500, "cybercat" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >,
> >> "jmcquown" > wrote:
> >>
> >>> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
> >>> t...
> >>> >
> >>> > "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
> >>> >>
> >>> > I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates at
> >>> > all. There are some who truly need to be parking in those spaces.
> >>> > Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and the aunt
> >>> > has a placard to park in those places. Yes, she is 'handicapped' but
> >>> > it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. She's a huge fan of
> >>> > yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
> >>> >
> >>> > You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign off on
> >>> > the
> >>> > application and evidently hers is over liberal on the reasons for
> >>> > using
> >>> > one. Unethical, IMO. She does not have a mobility problem.
> >>
> >>> I have to agree, Ed. True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't mean
> >>> the
> >>> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.
> >>
> >>
> >> And here we see the true colors of the personalities that Nancy was
> >> posting about. People are *jealous* of the handicapped? Would Jill be
> >> happy if some thug broke her legs in so many places that it couldn't be
> >> fixed, and she too could park in a handicapped spot? I would rather
> >> walk a little farther than be handicapped.
> >>
> >> --
> >
> >This is just one of many characteristics I absolutely loathe about Jill.
> >
> I'm confused, first Dan and now you are jumping all over her... for
> what? What did she say that was so horrible?

It's not horrible, in fact, it seems to be too prevalent on this group.
It's partly the concept that somebody making a brief glance at someone
else in the distance, fully clothed, is better able to judge the level
of handicap than a doctor with a medical history, and doing a full exam,
closeup, in the office.

Mainly it's just the concept that if someone is able to walk at all,
then they don't deserve to have a "better" parking spot than everybody
else.

What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't look
sufficiently handicapped? How can somebody decide that deafness isn't a
handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On Feb 24, 3:42*pm, Mark Thorson > wrote:
> *They seem to
> take perverse pride in blocking my ability to make a
> right turn, even when all it would take would be to
> move a safe distance aside.

It's a bit of a "damned if you do" situation. If a bicyclist rides
down the center of the lane, they get honked at or worse, so they
mostly stick to the right. But at corners, car drivers expect them to
vaporize, hover, or slide sizeways to get out of their way. Just
relax - if they were in a car you wouldn't be able to make the turn
either.

> I can understand not stopping completely at a stop
> sign, because it takes a lot of energy to get going
> again. *I've been thinking about inventing some kind
> of spring-clutch-reverser system for storing the
> energy from braking, so that they could get a fast
> start from a stop.

It's been tried. There are probably 100 US Patents on such devices,
but they just aren't worthwhile. I push about 400 watts when
accellerating - that's over half a horsepower, and that would require
a very hefty spring.

The rule of thumb figure is that ever full stop on a bicycle requires
the equivalent energy of 100-200 metres of riding. The 16 potential
red lights on my commute can therefore add 20-40% to my
'distance.' (Me? I stop for them.)

"Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
...
> The message <uVowj.4594$O64.99@trndny03>
> from "Julie Bove" > contains these words:
>
>
>> "Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > The message <ROmwj.19145$6t3.14165@trndny07>
>> > from "Julie Bove" > contains these words:
>> >
>> >> At present I don't need the walker. And I would never put my purse in
>> >> some
>> >> spot on a walker. We live in a really bad area as far crimes go. We
>> >> were
>> >> already robbed once. No need to leave my purse somewhere where it can
>> >> be
>> >> easily grabbed.
>> >
>> > You're making heavy weather of stuff that faces every woman.
>> >
>> > Normal city street precaution here is to use a bag with a strong
>> > shoulder strap which you wear diagonally to deter snatchers. If you're
>> > in a really risky place wear it diagonally inside your jacket or wear a
>> > waist-belt purse under your jacket.
>
>> I have to carry too much stuff with me for a waist purse.
>
> Well, I distinguish between "stuff I really, really don't want to lose
> (keys, notes, plastic cards, passport if travelling)" and stuff that
> would be annoying to lose but not to cry for ( the usual female
> life-support system which lives in my bag). The high security stuff,
> needs only a tiny space.
>
>
> And a diagonal
>> shoulder strap doesn't help you at all. All they need is a knife to
>> cut the
>> strap, plus you are risking injury of being choked if they try to pull it
>> off of you. I generally don't wear a jacket. Our weather is mild enough
>> here that for most of the year we don't need it.
>
> Okay. So, when you go shopping, or anywhere, where do you carry your
> purse?

Over my shoulder.

<sf> wrote in message ...
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:29:34 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>>The bikes around here are worse than the cars. It is a wonder that more of
>>them don't get killed. They rarely stop for stop signs.
>
> Here too. They also are very bad about equipping their bikes with
> reflective devices and wearing reflective clothing after dark. I've
> been surprised more than once by a dark bike with a rider dressed in
> black (after dark) seemingly coming from nowhere on busy city streets.

The skateboarders are what get me. Dressed all in black and riding black
boards, they zoom out in front of me on a dark night. All I can hear is
their wheels. Almost hit three of them the other night. I swear they wait
there for a car to come and then shoot out in front to cross the street.
And not in a crosswalk!

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
>
>>
>> I harassed someone once. She pulled into the handicapped spot in a big
>> 4-door Oldsmobile, the perfect car for old folks. The handicapped tag was
>> on
>> the rear view mirror. The twenty-something bitch bounced out of the car
>> wearing an aerobics outfit. If she was handicapped, it must've been above
>> the neck. I made a comment. It had no effect.
>
> Just recently someone emailed my a video clip, I think maybe it was a clip
> from
> a Jim Carey movie (Me, Myself and Irene?) where he is parked in front of a
> convenience store and a luxury convertible flies into a handicapped space,
> the
> driver hops out of the car and runs into the store. The Carey character
> trashes
> the car, dumps garbage into the interier and smashes the windshield with
> the
> trash can. Then he jumps up and dances on the hood. Then the driver
> reappears.....escorting an old man with a walker.

Yep. That's another thing people don't think of. A person might have
dropped off a handicapped person then returned later to pick them up.

Dan Abel wrote:

>
> What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
> to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't look
> sufficiently handicapped?

I don't worry too much about those spaces because, from what I have seen, people
with handicapped parking permits in their vehicles abuse them as much as other
people. ASFAIC, there are a lot of cases where a handicapped person is driven to a
mall, plaze or downtown area and could be dropped off at the front door and the
car could then be parked in a regular spot. I usually did that when I drove my
mother. She had the permit and I could have used it to park in a handicapped spot.



> How can somebody decide that deafness isn't a
> handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?

In this province, deafness is not a condition for which a permit is issued.

The elegibility requirements are :
- Cannot walk without assistance of another person or a brace, cane, crutch, a
lower limb prosthetic device or similar assistive device or who requires the
assistance of a wheelchair.
- Suffers from lung disease to such an extent that forced expiratory volume in one
second is less than 1 litre.
- Portable oxygen is a medical necessity.
- Cardiovascular disease impairment classified as Class III or Class IV to
standards accepted by the American Heart Association or Class III or IV according
to the Canadian Cardiovascular Standard.
- Severely limited in the ability to walk due to an arthritic, neurological,
musculoskeletal or orthopaedic condition.
- Visual acuity is 20/200 or poorer in the better eye with or without corrective
lenses or whose greatest diameter of the field of vision in both eyes is 20
degrees or less.
- Condition(s) or functional impairment that severely limits his or her mobility.

Deafness in not listed.

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 19:06:19 GMT, "Edwin Pawlowski" >
wrote:

>
>"Andy" <q> wrote in message
>>
>> I'm not deaf but they're NOT handicapped! A fortunate feature, if you ask
>> me!!!
>>
>
>If you think it is a benefit, simply hammer a couple of nails in your ears
>and you too can reap the benefits of hearing loss. Report back when you do.
>

make 'em *long* nails.

your pal,
blake

Toronto wrote:

> It's a bit of a "damned if you do" situation. If a bicyclist rides
> down the center of the lane, they get honked at or worse, so they
> mostly stick to the right. But at corners, car drivers expect them to
> vaporize, hover, or slide sizeways to get out of their way. Just
> relax - if they were in a car you wouldn't be able to make the turn
> either.

As a bicyclist, you have to learn to assert yourself. Keep to the right,
but be out far enough that you don't end up inviting the motorist to
force you off the road. Staying out a little also gives you room to move
over for those who will inevitable fail to give you enough room. When
making a left turn, signal your intention to turn, look to make sure that
it is clear and move over to the left, just as you would in a car. For
those who are less daring, go straight though and then wait on the
opposite corner to go straight across with the light or when the way is
clear (if there are no lights|).





> It's been tried. There are probably 100 US Patents on such devices,
> but they just aren't worthwhile. I push about 400 watts when
> accellerating - that's over half a horsepower, and that would require
> a very hefty spring.

A hefty spring and a hefty mechaism to hold it. That is a lot of extra
weight to be hauling around all the rest of the time. I cycle for
exercise, and I have 21 gears on my bike, so I use them. It is no more
work to pedal up through the gears than it is to maintain a cruising
speed. It just takes a little longer.


> The rule of thumb figure is that ever full stop on a bicycle requires
> the equivalent energy of 100-200 metres of riding. The 16 potential
> red lights on my commute can therefore add 20-40% to my
> 'distance.' (Me? I stop for them.)

It is a lot safer to stop. When cars and bicyclists crash it is the
cyclist that gets hurt, not the car. You can end up in the hospital
without even denting the car.

"Julie Bove" > wrote in
news:Gw3wj.182$tH.163@trndny01:

>
> "James Silverton" > wrote in message
> news:uC1wj.20633$T8.2010@trnddc03...
>>I was just going into a supermarket today when I heard two cars
>> beeping. They were backing out simultaneously and just saw each
>> other in time to avoid a collision. That happens but the next
>> was weird since each seemed to consider that they had the right
>> of way and wouldn't yield or go back so they beeped at each
>> other for (really) two minutes until one started to make small
>> moves back and forward with assistance from a gathering crowd.
>> They beeped at each other after each move but finally there was
>> room to go. Appropriately, both parking spaces were handicapped
>> ones but I wonder if it was two cases of incipient Alzheimer's
>> and really rather sad.
>
> That is sad. A couple of months ago, I was backing out at the grocery
> store when another car started to back up and could have possibly hit
> me. I honked. They stopped, turned around looked at me and began to
> back up more. I honked again. They repeated the procedure. I laid on
> the horn. People turned around and looked. Car still continued to
> back up rather quickly. I had to rocket back into my parking space or
> I would have been hit. I couldn't believe it and neither could my
> daughter. Left me shaking because I had to move so quickly to avoid
> being hit.
>
>
>


You should have just got out and bitch-slapped the other driver.



--
Peter Lucas
Brisbane
Australia


Wars begin where you will...
but they do not end where you please.

Machiavelli

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 10:30:11 -0800, sf wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:23:05 GMT, blake murphy >
>wrote:
>
>>i've even heard a reverse story, when somebody with a wheelchair
>>parked in a 'normal' space. someone yelled 'you got spaces of your
>>own! leave these for regular people!'
>
>Unbelievable. Everyone has an opinion and many don't know how to keep
>it to themselves.

there ain't a whole lot of assistive devices out there for stupid
people.

your pal,
blake

> Who knows? But, I'm sure she understood.-

Meaning what? If she was deaf, the only way she understood is:

A. She read your lips
B. She read your body language
C. She read your sign language

Either way, if she was deaf, she has every right to that parking
space.

Most likely, she took the closest spot because she was lazy or in a
hurry. But if she was deaf or nearly so, you are out of line.




On Feb 25, 10:57*am, "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
> "Foobar" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Feb 24, 10:34 am, "JoeSpareBedroom" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > <sf> wrote in messagenews:9s23s35h3rpmk3g08d15nsp696e25k4avr@4ax .com...
> > > On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 06:15:14 GMT, "Julie Bove" >
> > > wrote:
>
> > >>I haven't tried
> > >>to get a handicapped sticker because too many times I have seen people
> > >>being
> > >>harassed for parking in there when they don't appear to be handicapped..
>
> > > I have *never* seen anyone harassed for parking in a handicapped spot
> > > just because they didn't "look" like they needed it. In fact, I've
> > > never seen anyone harassed at all. Is this yet another example of
> > > what people who say "it's not my place to judge" do?
>
> > I harassed someone once. She pulled into the handicapped spot in a big
> > 4-door Oldsmobile, the perfect car for old folks. The handicapped tag was
> > on
> > the rear view mirror. The twenty-something bitch bounced out of the car
> > wearing an aerobics outfit. If she was handicapped, it must've been above
> > the neck. I made a comment. It had no effect.
>
> Maybe she was deaf?
>
> ================
>
> Who knows? But, I'm sure she understood.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On Feb 24, 7:59*am, "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote:
> "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
>
> I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates at
> all. *There are some who truly need to be parking in those spaces.
> Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and the aunt
> has a placard to park in those places. *Yes, she is 'handicapped' but
> it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. *She's a huge fan of
> yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
>
> You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign off on the
> application and evidently hers is *over liberal on the reasons for using
> one. *Unethical, IMO. She does *not have a mobility problem.

While not a mobility problem (legs still work), it is a handicap.
Being too fat too walk to the store and needing a motorized shopping
cart may also be considered a mobility problem, but I don't see anyone
in the store preventing these people from buying a bunch of crap.
Blindness also isn't a mobility problem.

All depends on your outlook.

> I have to agree, Ed. True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't mean the
> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.

Being 60% deaf myself, and reading all of this crap, I will finally
get my handicap sticker. Go ahead and honk your horn, as I can't
hear it anyway.

On Feb 24, 8:55*am, "jmcquown" > wrote:
> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>
> t...
>
> > "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
>
> > I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates at
> > all. *There are some who truly need to be parking in those spaces.
> > Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and the aunt
> > has a placard to park in those places. *Yes, she is 'handicapped' but
> > it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. *She's a huge fan of
> > yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
>
> > You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign off on the
> > application and evidently hers is *over liberal on the reasons for using
> > one. *Unethical, IMO. She does *not have a mobility problem.
>
> I have to agree, Ed. *True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't mean the
> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.
>
> Jill

Foobar wrote:

> While not a mobility problem (legs still work), it is a handicap.
> Being too fat too walk to the store and needing a motorized shopping
> cart may also be considered a mobility problem, but I don't see anyone
> in the store preventing these people from buying a bunch of crap.
> Blindness also isn't a mobility problem.
>
> All depends on your outlook.

Heck, why not add depression to the list. The person might be too sad and
unmotivated to walk.

On Feb 25, 9:33*am, sf wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:29:34 -0500, Dave Smith
>
> > wrote:
> >The bikes around here are worse than the cars. It is a wonder that more of
> >them don't get killed. They rarely stop for stop signs.
>
> Here too. *They also are very bad about equipping their bikes with
> reflective devices and wearing reflective clothing after dark. *I've
> been surprised more than once by a dark bike with a rider dressed in
> black (after dark) seemingly coming from nowhere on busy city streets.

Tarring all cyclists with the same brush is a bit like saying all car
drivers are horn-pressing, coffee sipping, cell phone holding, left
turning, non-signaling jerks.

It's a wonder they don't kill more.

As to the two-wheeled crowd, some of us have refective jackets and
helmets, multi-watt LED headlights and taillights, reflective tape all
over, and *do* stop for traffic lights and stop signs. I'm not a
racer, I'm not a BMXer, and I'm sure as hell not a skateboarder. I
commute year-round by bicycle in a major city, and do my grocery and
other shopping by bike as well. Riding over 8,000 km per year tends to
hone your survival skills somewhat.

Toronto wrote:

>
> > >The bikes around here are worse than the cars. It is a wonder that more of
> > >them don't get killed. They rarely stop for stop signs.
> >
> > Here too. They also are very bad about equipping their bikes with
> > reflective devices and wearing reflective clothing after dark. I've
> > been surprised more than once by a dark bike with a rider dressed in
> > black (after dark) seemingly coming from nowhere on busy city streets.
>
> Tarring all cyclists with the same brush is a bit like saying all car
> drivers are horn-pressing, coffee sipping, cell phone holding, left
> turning, non-signaling jerks.

From what I have seen around here, it is not hard to tar them with the same brush
because an overwhelming majorty of them do it, not just the occasional cyclist.

> As to the two-wheeled crowd, some of us have refective jackets and
> helmets, multi-watt LED headlights and taillights, reflective tape all
> over, and *do* stop for traffic lights and stop signs. I'm not a
> racer, I'm not a BMXer, and I'm sure as hell not a skateboarder. I
> commute year-round by bicycle in a major city, and do my grocery and
> other shopping by bike as well. Riding over 8,000 km per year tends to
> hone your survival skills somewhat.

I am a cyclist too. I don't cycle as far as you do, but I average about 15 km per
day in the warm weather. I realize there are two sides to the story. I ride
defensively because I know I will be the one who ends up hurt or killed, but I
have to wonder about most of the other cyclists I see out there who act as if the
rules of the road do not apply to them.

"Janet Baraclough" > wrote in message
...
> The message <T6Cwj.183$o23.52@trndny09>
> from "Julie Bove" > contains these words:
>
>
>> Yep. That's another thing people don't think of. A person might have
>> dropped off a handicapped person then returned later to pick them up.
>
> Here, if someone is so disabled that they always need a driver for
> their car, they can still get a disabled sticker for it so that it can
> be parked to suit the disabled passenger.

But what I mean is, when some people see the able bodied person walking from
the car with no handicapped person in sight, they will yell at him or her.
It's not right.

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, sf wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 23:04:10 -0500, "cybercat" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> In article >,
>> >> "jmcquown" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>> >>> t...
>> >>> >
>> >>> > "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
>> >>> >>
>> >>> > I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates at
>> >>> > all. There are some who truly need to be parking in those spaces.
>> >>> > Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and the
>> >>> > aunt
>> >>> > has a placard to park in those places. Yes, she is 'handicapped'
>> >>> > but
>> >>> > it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. She's a huge fan of
>> >>> > yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign off
>> >>> > on
>> >>> > the
>> >>> > application and evidently hers is over liberal on the reasons for
>> >>> > using
>> >>> > one. Unethical, IMO. She does not have a mobility problem.
>> >>
>> >>> I have to agree, Ed. True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't
>> >>> mean
>> >>> the
>> >>> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> And here we see the true colors of the personalities that Nancy was
>> >> posting about. People are *jealous* of the handicapped? Would Jill
>> >> be
>> >> happy if some thug broke her legs in so many places that it couldn't
>> >> be
>> >> fixed, and she too could park in a handicapped spot? I would rather
>> >> walk a little farther than be handicapped.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >
>> >This is just one of many characteristics I absolutely loathe about Jill.
>> >
>> I'm confused, first Dan and now you are jumping all over her... for
>> what? What did she say that was so horrible?
>
> It's not horrible, in fact, it seems to be too prevalent on this group.
> It's partly the concept that somebody making a brief glance at someone
> else in the distance, fully clothed, is better able to judge the level
> of handicap than a doctor with a medical history, and doing a full exam,
> closeup, in the office.
>
> Mainly it's just the concept that if someone is able to walk at all,
> then they don't deserve to have a "better" parking spot than everybody
> else.
>
> What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
> to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't look
> sufficiently handicapped? How can somebody decide that deafness isn't a
> handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?
>
> --
> Dan Abel
> Petaluma, California USA

I have *never* yelled at anyone about parking in a handicapped spot! I have
never parked in a handicapped spot with the excuse I was just going to be a
minute, either.

I don't know why you seem to have drawn the conclusion that I am "jealous"
about not being able to park right next to a shop door. I am *thrilled* to
pieces that I can walk. I prefer to walk. My point (and Ed's point) was
being deaf in and of itself doesn't create the need to park closer to the
door.

Jill

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>
> I don't worry too much about those spaces because, from what I have seen,
> people
> with handicapped parking permits in their vehicles abuse them as much as
> other
> people. ASFAIC, there are a lot of cases where a handicapped person is
> driven to a
> mall, plaze or downtown area and could be dropped off at the front door
> and the
> car could then be parked in a regular spot. I usually did that when I
> drove my
> mother. She had the permit and I could have used it to park in a
> handicapped spot.

My MIL qualified also, but we never got her one. Just as easy to drop her at
the door. If I took her to the casino, I'd push her in the wheelchair so it
was not a big deal.

Off on another tangent that is an irksome deed, the driver that parks in the
fire zone while waiting for someone in the store. That can cause traffic
problems, but I saw one guy get fixed up real good. He was sitting is his
big assed SUV and someone intentionally left their shopping cart right in
front of him. The guy kind of smirked. A few minutes later, he just backed
up so he could pull away. What he did not see though was that someone else
left a cart in back of him too. He really looked ****ed at that. I could
not see how much damage there was from my vantage point but I though it
funny.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:14:48 -0800, Dan Abel > wrote:

>Mainly it's just the concept that if someone is able to walk at all,
>then they don't deserve to have a "better" parking spot than everybody
>else.

The handicapped spaces in front of a store are usually limited to just
one or two spots, so I can see where a healthy deaf person would opt
not use it so that someone else could. I also understand the safety
issue of not being able to hear oncoming traffic and that it could be
a danger to a deaf person.
>
>What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
>to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't look
>sufficiently handicapped? How can somebody decide that deafness isn't a
>handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?

Jill wasn't making that call. She said deafness is an ADA issue and
they have a right to the placard. I thought she showed common sense
as would any deaf person. It's their call, but she put it into words.
For instance, I'd venture to guess that if they knew a senior center
was just up the street and seniors shopped where they were parking,
they would opt to let disabled seniors have access to the space.


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On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 11:35:08 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>Dan Abel wrote:
>
>>
>> What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
>> to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't look
>> sufficiently handicapped?
>
>I don't worry too much about those spaces because, from what I have seen, people
>with handicapped parking permits in their vehicles abuse them as much as other
>people. ASFAIC, there are a lot of cases where a handicapped person is driven to a
>mall, plaze or downtown area and could be dropped off at the front door and the
>car could then be parked in a regular spot. I usually did that when I drove my
>mother. She had the permit and I could have used it to park in a handicapped spot.
>
>
>
>> How can somebody decide that deafness isn't a
>> handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?
>
>In this province, deafness is not a condition for which a permit is issued.
>
>The elegibility requirements are :
>- Cannot walk without assistance of another person or a brace, cane, crutch, a
>lower limb prosthetic device or similar assistive device or who requires the
>assistance of a wheelchair.
>- Suffers from lung disease to such an extent that forced expiratory volume in one
>second is less than 1 litre.
>- Portable oxygen is a medical necessity.
>- Cardiovascular disease impairment classified as Class III or Class IV to
>standards accepted by the American Heart Association or Class III or IV according
>to the Canadian Cardiovascular Standard.
>- Severely limited in the ability to walk due to an arthritic, neurological,
>musculoskeletal or orthopaedic condition.
>- Visual acuity is 20/200 or poorer in the better eye with or without corrective
>lenses or whose greatest diameter of the field of vision in both eyes is 20
>degrees or less.
>- Condition(s) or functional impairment that severely limits his or her mobility.
>
>Deafness in not listed.
>
Honestly, I don't know what the law is in the US (California in
particular). At this point, I'm not interested enough to look it
up.... but I guess people who are claiming being deaf automatically
gets a placard should do the research.

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On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 08:16:03 -0800 (PST), Toronto
> wrote:

>But at corners, car drivers expect them to
>vaporize, hover, or slide sizeways to get out of their way. Just
>relax - if they were in a car you wouldn't be able to make the turn
>either.

At corners in California, the bike rider comes from behind on the
right and expects you to slam on the brakes (which you do, because you
don't want a big dent and blood all over your car).

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On Feb 25, 7:43�pm, sf wrote:

> Honestly, I don't know what the law is in the US
> (California in particular). �At this point, I'm not interested
> enough to look it up.... but I guess people who are
> claiming being deaf automatically gets a placard
> should do the research.

California's DMV has an informational brochure about
parking placards for the disabled. Deafness is not listed
as a qualifying disability.

In article >,
"jmcquown" > wrote:

> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...

> > In article >, sf wrote:


> >> >> In article >,
> >> >> "jmcquown" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
> >> >>> t...
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
> >> >>> >>
> >> >>> > I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates at
> >> >>> > all. There are some who truly need to be parking in those spaces.
> >> >>> > Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and the
> >> >>> > aunt
> >> >>> > has a placard to park in those places. Yes, she is 'handicapped'
> >> >>> > but
> >> >>> > it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. She's a huge fan of
> >> >>> > yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
> >> >>> >
> >> >>> > You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign off
> >> >>> > on
> >> >>> > the
> >> >>> > application and evidently hers is over liberal on the reasons for
> >> >>> > using
> >> >>> > one. Unethical, IMO. She does not have a mobility problem.
> >> >>
> >> >>> I have to agree, Ed. True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't
> >> >>> mean
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.

> >> I'm confused, first Dan and now you are jumping all over her... for
> >> what? What did she say that was so horrible?

> > What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
> > to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't look
> > sufficiently handicapped? How can somebody decide that deafness isn't a
> > handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?

> I have *never* yelled at anyone about parking in a handicapped spot! I have
> never parked in a handicapped spot with the excuse I was just going to be a
> minute, either.
>
> I don't know why you seem to have drawn the conclusion that I am "jealous"
> about not being able to park right next to a shop door. I am *thrilled* to
> pieces that I can walk. I prefer to walk. My point (and Ed's point) was
> being deaf in and of itself doesn't create the need to park closer to the
> door.

My apologies, Jill. I was so busy ranting about the busybodies that I
forgot that I was replying to you. I still believe that if a doctor
feels that a particular deaf person needs to park in a handicapped spot
because of their deafness, that should be the end of the story. I
certainly didn't mean to imply that you were one of those people who
yelled at the handicapped because they didn't look handicapped enough.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 20:21:04 -0800 (PST), KevinS >
wrote:

>On Feb 25, 7:43?pm, sf wrote:
>
>> Honestly, I don't know what the law is in the US
>> (California in particular). ?At this point, I'm not interested
>> enough to look it up.... but I guess people who are
>> claiming being deaf automatically gets a placard
>> should do the research.
>
>California's DMV has an informational brochure about
>parking placards for the disabled. Deafness is not listed
>as a qualifying disability.

Thank you for clarifying the issue!

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On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:47:23 +0000 (UTC), PeterLucas >
wrote:

>"Julie Bove" > wrote in
>news:Gw3wj.182$tH.163@trndny01:
>
>>I had to rocket back into my parking space or
>> I would have been hit. I couldn't believe it and neither could my
>> daughter. Left me shaking because I had to move so quickly to avoid
>> being hit.
>>
>
>
>You should have just got out and bitch-slapped the other driver.

Funny comment, but Julie isn't the type.

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sf wrote:
> On Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:47:23 +0000 (UTC), PeterLucas >
> wrote:
>
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in
>> news:Gw3wj.182$tH.163@trndny01:
>>
>>> I had to rocket back into my parking space or
>>> I would have been hit. I couldn't believe it and neither could my
>>> daughter. Left me shaking because I had to move so quickly to avoid
>>> being hit.
>>>
>>
>> You should have just got out and bitch-slapped the other driver.
>
> Funny comment, but Julie isn't the type.
>
no, she's probably allergic to other drivers.
LOL
Just kidding! Just kidding!

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "jmcquown" > wrote:
>
>> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>> > In article >, sf wrote:
>
>
>> >> >> In article >,
>> >> >> "jmcquown" > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> "Edwin Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>> >> >>> t...
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > "itsjoannotjoann" > wrote in message
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> > I don't mind people having the handicap stickers/placards/plates
>> >> >>> > at
>> >> >>> > all. There are some who truly need to be parking in those
>> >> >>> > spaces.
>> >> >>> > Then there's a girl I work with who's aunt is a deaf mute and
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > aunt
>> >> >>> > has a placard to park in those places. Yes, she is
>> >> >>> > 'handicapped'
>> >> >>> > but
>> >> >>> > it has nothing to do with her ability to walk. She's a huge fan
>> >> >>> > of
>> >> >>> > yard sales and flea markets and never misses one.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > You have to wonder about her doctor. You need a doctor to sign
>> >> >>> > off
>> >> >>> > on
>> >> >>> > the
>> >> >>> > application and evidently hers is over liberal on the reasons
>> >> >>> > for
>> >> >>> > using
>> >> >>> > one. Unethical, IMO. She does not have a mobility problem.
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> I have to agree, Ed. True, deafness is a handicap but it doesn't
>> >> >>> mean
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> person gets to park closest to the front door of the shop.
>
>> >> I'm confused, first Dan and now you are jumping all over her... for
>> >> what? What did she say that was so horrible?
>
>> > What's the big deal about a parking space? Why would somebody walk up
>> > to a perfect stranger and start yelling at them because they didn't
>> > look
>> > sufficiently handicapped? How can somebody decide that deafness isn't
>> > a
>> > handicap as far as parking, when some doctor has decided that it is?
>
>> I have *never* yelled at anyone about parking in a handicapped spot! I
>> have
>> never parked in a handicapped spot with the excuse I was just going to be
>> a
>> minute, either.
>>
>> I don't know why you seem to have drawn the conclusion that I am
>> "jealous"
>> about not being able to park right next to a shop door. I am *thrilled*
>> to
>> pieces that I can walk. I prefer to walk. My point (and Ed's point) was
>> being deaf in and of itself doesn't create the need to park closer to the
>> door.
>
> My apologies, Jill. I was so busy ranting about the busybodies that I
> forgot that I was replying to you. I still believe that if a doctor
> feels that a particular deaf person needs to park in a handicapped spot
> because of their deafness, that should be the end of the story. I
> certainly didn't mean to imply that you were one of those people who
> yelled at the handicapped because they didn't look handicapped enough.
>
> --
> Dan Abel
> Petaluma, California USA
>
Apology accepted I was really confused because I don't think anyone
should be yelling at people. In one of my replies I mentioned my friend D.
who has MS. She had a handicapped placard but at that point didn't have to
rely on her cane all day every day. People made rude comments all the time
to her for parking there. She had good days and bad days when it came to
balance and walking. It wasn't something she could plan for. I was shocked
when she told me some of the things clueless strangers said to her.

Jill

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> enigma > wrote:
>
>
>> is it possible that the intersection was formerly a 4 way
>> stop, but changed recently to improve traffic flow?
>> it amazes me how many people don't understand the procedure
>> for a 4 way intersection anyway.
>
> Yes, one wonders how they got a driver's license.
>
> :-(
>
>> it's not "I got here first!"
>
> Example number one. That in fact is the primary rule at an intersection
> with four stop signs.
>
> --
> Dan Abel
>
Yup, that's what was on the driving test I took, too. I can't believe the
rule has changed in 30 years. How else would you do it if not the person
who stops first goes first?

Jill

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>> I don't worry too much about those spaces because, from what I have seen,
>> people
>> with handicapped parking permits in their vehicles abuse them as much as
>> other
>> people. ASFAIC, there are a lot of cases where a handicapped person is
>> driven to a
>> mall, plaze or downtown area and could be dropped off at the front door
>> and the
>> car could then be parked in a regular spot. I usually did that when I
>> drove my
>> mother. She had the permit and I could have used it to park in a
>> handicapped spot.
>
> My MIL qualified also, but we never got her one. Just as easy to drop her at
> the door. If I took her to the casino, I'd push her in the wheelchair so it
> was not a big deal.
>
> Off on another tangent that is an irksome deed, the driver that parks in the
> fire zone while waiting for someone in the store.

I don't call that irksome I call it dangerous. Fire lanes (zones) are
there for a reason, often to save lives. I'd be more than happy to see
such a driver fined and the car seized.


> That can cause traffic
> problems, but I saw one guy get fixed up real good. He was sitting is his
> big assed SUV and someone intentionally left their shopping cart right in
> front of him. The guy kind of smirked. A few minutes later, he just backed
> up so he could pull away. What he did not see though was that someone else
> left a cart in back of him too. He really looked ****ed at that. I could
> not see how much damage there was from my vantage point but I though it
> funny.
>
>


--
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Dave wrote on Sun, 24 Feb 2008 18:35:58 -0500:

??>> Yes, it is! First in, first out. You'll make yourself
??>> very unpopular around here if you ignore it. That being
??>> said, most people are willing to give someone else the
??>> benefit of the doubt and there can be a series of
??>> wavings-on until someone decides to accept it.

DS> I hate those wavers. I wish they would just do what they
DS> are supposed to do and what everyone else expects them to
DS> do and everyone would get through a lot faster.

Quite the opposite are those people who come whizzing up to a
Stop sign on a side road with no intention of stopping unless
they must. If I am the driver of the nearest car on the main
road, I don't appreciate it since I am not always convinced they
will notice me. I have been often sufficiently alarmed to slam
on my brakes and, of course, hit the horn at the same time. I've
given up counting the number of angry, offended or sometimes
superior looks.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Dave Smith wrote:
> Toronto wrote:
>
>>>> The bikes around here are worse than the cars. It is a wonder that more of
>>>> them don't get killed. They rarely stop for stop signs.
>>> Here too. They also are very bad about equipping their bikes with
>>> reflective devices and wearing reflective clothing after dark. I've
>>> been surprised more than once by a dark bike with a rider dressed in
>>> black (after dark) seemingly coming from nowhere on busy city streets.
>> Tarring all cyclists with the same brush is a bit like saying all car
>> drivers are horn-pressing, coffee sipping, cell phone holding, left
>> turning, non-signaling jerks.
>
> From what I have seen around here, it is not hard to tar them with the same brush
> because an overwhelming majorty of them do it, not just the occasional cyclist.
>
>> As to the two-wheeled crowd, some of us have refective jackets and
>> helmets, multi-watt LED headlights and taillights, reflective tape all
>> over, and *do* stop for traffic lights and stop signs. I'm not a
>> racer, I'm not a BMXer, and I'm sure as hell not a skateboarder. I
>> commute year-round by bicycle in a major city, and do my grocery and
>> other shopping by bike as well. Riding over 8,000 km per year tends to
>> hone your survival skills somewhat.
>
> I am a cyclist too. I don't cycle as far as you do, but I average about 15 km per
> day in the warm weather. I realize there are two sides to the story. I ride
> defensively because I know I will be the one who ends up hurt or killed, but I
> have to wonder about most of the other cyclists I see out there who act as if the
> rules of the road do not apply to them.

Much of the bad behaviour is probably due to poor education. All too
many bicycle riders have been given loads of false and often dangerous
information from people who really know almost nothing about cycling.
This, unfortunately, can include well-meaning but untrained police
officers. Some riders may not have a driver's licence and thus may not
know the Highway Traffic Act or general rules of the road.

Often well-meaning but pig-ignorant people will tell a young rider that
it is safer to ride on the sidewalk. It is not!

I have even heard of some idiot police officers in the USA and the
Netherlands telling people that it is safer to ride towards on-coming
traffic, as pedestrians are recommended to do.

I don't know who was doing it but I suspect that in one case an
instructor based at a local grade school in Ottawa was teaching children
that the correct way to make a left turn was to cross to the left-hand
side of the street (that is, ride along the left-hand curb) just before
reaching a turn and then make a left turn. This is a brilliant tactic
on a blind corner.

Of course lots of bicycle riders will run stop signs and red lights but
then they are just imitating automobile drivers (: Actually given the
speed and visibility difference it may be safer for the bicycle riders
to do this than for automobile drivers even if it is stupid for either.

--
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

sf wrote:
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:29:34 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> The bikes around here are worse than the cars. It is a wonder that more of
>> them don't get killed. They rarely stop for stop signs.
>
> Here too. They also are very bad about equipping their bikes with
> reflective devices and wearing reflective clothing after dark. I've
> been surprised more than once by a dark bike with a rider dressed in
> black (after dark) seemingly coming from nowhere on busy city streets.
>
While cycling home from work one dark evening I encountered a man
dressed in black, riding a bicycle while balancing a case of 24 beer on
his handle bars and riding on my side of the street. Luckily he was
smoking a cigarette and I saw the red glow.

--
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada