On Mar 18, 3:16*am, wrote:
> On Mar 16, 1:11*am, wrote:
>
> > Didn't seem to post the first time...
>
> It was the spam filters.
>

Do you think they worked?

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 14:03:20 -0700, Robert Klute >
wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:51:41 GMT, blake murphy >
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 10:06:49 -0700, Robert Klute >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 17:07:03 GMT, blake murphy >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:24:03 -0700, Robert Klute >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 16:25:43 -0700 (PDT), Ted >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4OG...eature=related
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Take a look on your shelves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>ted
>>>>>
>>>>>Better than eating beef passed by the FDA (which you pay for also). At
>>>>>least with kosher food you know the inspector faces eternal damnation if
>>>>>you fails to do is job properly.
>>>>
>>>>i thought jews didn't go in for this 'eternal damnation' jazz.
>>>
>>>While Judaism focuses on this life and that you will be rewarded or
>>>punished in this life, the religion does hold that death is not the end
>>>of it all. Jewish dogma is just fluid about what comes after, as there
>>>has never been any verification. Whether it is an immediate afterlife,
>>>being on ice until the Messiah comes, or reincarnation there is some
>>>concept of death as a transition. Similarly, for the wicked, it is
>>>eternal torment or non-existence - the denial of an afterlife.
>>
>>my understanding is as you say, minus the 'eternal torment' option,
>>except to the extent which the separation from god implies.
>
>I will agree with you on this. My statement was more for effect than
>strict accuracy. The ol' Hebrew National and answering to a 'higher
>authority' paradym.
>
>>let's just say it is not the preoccupation that it seems to be for
>>most christian sects.
>

yeah, i knew it was a jape, but i just wanted to see if my impression
was correct, and make a small joke myself. thanks for your words on
the subject.

your pal,
blake

Ted wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4OG...eature=related

Funny stuff, just shows how misinformed people were back then.

"you have paid a rabbi to bless this chow in order to make it Kosher."

Sqwertz wrote:

> What else would you call these private corporations set up to
> certify your products kosher for large, reoccurring fees, or else be
> subjected to a boycott by the Jewish community?

Jews are only a tiny percentage of the customer base that prefer to
purchase kosher foods. It has nothing to do with religion, it's that
it's an independent and recurring inspection of the production
facilities of these food manufacturers by trusted organizations.

It's profitable to the food manufacturers to have the kosher
certification because it greatly increases their sales volumes to
non-jews, generating far more money than the small cost of
certification. It also lowers prices for the consumer when the
manufacturer is able to sell in higher volumes.

If there were another type of certification that provided similar
assurances of production quality then that would probably be equally
acceptable to consumers, but the certification process wouldn't be any
cheaper, i.e. organic certification.

> If it was truly for religious reasons, wouldn't it be done on a
> volunteer basis as an act of goodwill?

No. Doing these inspections is a full time job.

> There doesn't seem to be any basis for these arbitrary dietary laws
> in the first place, except to keep you aware of your faith and the
> threat of going to hell if you don't obey these laws.

Some of them are arbitrary, some had a basis that no longer exists, some
have a basis that still exists. Hell has nothing to do with it.

But of course you probably knew all of this anyway.

Bill wrote:
>
> Sqwertz wrote:
>> Sheldon <Sheldon >> wrote:
>>
>>> Kosher costs nothing extra.
>> Yes, it does. Like advertising, the costs of certifying your
>> products kosher is passed along to the consumers.
>>
>> -sw
>
> So then be sure to buy the items that are not certified kosher.
> There are plenty of them out there. Be sure to tell us if
> they're any cheap than the ones that are certified kosher (and I
> don't mean meat items that are obviously going to be more
> expensive if they're kosher).

Actually the kosher certification lowers the price of goods because it
enables the manufacturer to sell far higher volumes. Jews are a tiny
percentage of those consumers that demand Kosher certification.

I live in an area with a very small Jewish population, yet many of the
stores around here make a big deal about the high number of kosher
products that they sell.

Mark Thorson wrote:
> jdoe wrote:
>> I don't think that was a kosher butcher you were going to,
>> pork in any form is not kosher
>
> Pig-skin-derived gelatin is commonly legally marketed
> as "kosher".

There's really no "legal" about it. Some manufacturers will put a K
(with no circle) on their product, claiming that it's kosher, but it's
just a letter they print on the box, not an official certification.

SMS wrote on Wed, 19 Mar 2008 10:18:42 -0700:

S> Mark Thorson wrote:
S> There's really no "legal" about it. Some manufacturers will
S> put a K (with no circle) on their product, claiming that
S> it's kosher, but it's just a letter they print on the box,
S> not an official certification.

??>> jdoe wrote:
??>>> I don't think that was a kosher butcher you were going
??>>> to, pork in any form is not kosher
??>>
??>> Pig-skin-derived gelatin is commonly legally marketed
??>> as "kosher".

I have no religious reasons for worrying about it but claiming
something is kosher or pareve when it is not is fraud and will
be treated as such in my state. I won't go into stories I have
heard that inspecting is a job for the owner's no-good, barely
qualified son-in-law.

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

Jonathan Kamens wrote:
> Sqwertz > writes:
>> Obtaining payment from another by threat of harm is certainly
>> extortion.
>
> Obtaining payment from another for a service rendered is not extortion.
> Companies that do not wish to have their products certified kosher do
> not need to avail themselves of the service offered by the
> certification agencies and thus do not need to pay for it. Ther eis no
> "threat."
>
> Products that are not certified kosher are not purchased by Jews who
> care about such things. This is not a "boycott," it is capitalism in
> action.

But the real reason for the huge increase in the number of certified
kosher products is because products that are not certified kosher are
also not purchased by non-Jews that care about such things. Since so
many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company that
didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes, and
higher costs that far exceed the cost of inspection and certification.

For those like Sqwertz, they could form a company that produced foods
that were certified to not be kosher, and could charge higher prices for
such foods because they would be specialty foods not intended for the
mass market.

Jonathan Kamens wrote:

> I think they're wrong about the increased price, but even if they
> weren't, they're right about the rest of it.

If the manufacturer was able to sell the same volume, with or without
the kosher certification, they'd be right. They are wrong because in
reality the kosher certification results in much higher volumes of
sales, especially to non-Jews that try to buy kosher products for
non-religious reasons.

> And, as others have pointed out, if you don't want to buy kosher
> products, you don't have to.

It actually can be difficult. Most manufacturers certify every possible
product as kosher because it's more profitable to do so. You might find
some certified organic products that feel that additional certification
is unnecessary, and that even most non-super orthodox Jews that keep
nominally kosher will accept the organic certification as good enough,
at least on non-meat products.

SMS wrote:
> Ted wrote:
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg4OG...eature=related
>
> Funny stuff, just shows how misinformed people were back then.
>
> "you have paid a rabbi to bless this chow in order to make it Kosher."

Hiya, Cocksuckers!

Funny how misinformed <misc.penis-consumers> people are. Rabbis don't
bless food to make it kosher, all they do is inspect that it was
prepared according to kosher doctrine, same as the USDA inspects all
foods sold in the US for wholesomeness, even kosher foods. Some Jews
bless food just prior to eating, the same as some goyim. And other
than matzo there is no such thing as Jewish food any more than there
is Cathelic food... the food that the imbeciles call Jewish are in
fact of particular ethnic origin, like Polish, Hungarian, Austrian,
German, Russian, etc., there is nothing particulary Jewish about
borscht and bagels. A bigoted cross posting <misc.consumers-scumbag>
like you probably thinks all Cathelic food is guinea/dago fare and is
blessed by the pope... you probably think Jesus was a WOP, actually if
you believe the fairytale he was a kike. But in reality Jesus is a
greaseball Mexican <misc.consumers-douchebag> landscaper. LOL

SMS > wrote:
> Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>> Sqwertz > writes:
>>> Obtaining payment from another by threat of harm is certainly
>>> extortion.
>>
>> Obtaining payment from another for a service rendered is not
>> extortion. Companies that do not wish to have their products
>> certified kosher do not need to avail themselves of the service
>> offered by the certification agencies and thus do not need to pay
>> for it. Ther eis no "threat."
>>
>> Products that are not certified kosher are not purchased by Jews who
>> care about such things. This is not a "boycott," it is capitalism in
>> action.
>
> But the real reason for the huge increase in the number of certified
> kosher products is because products that are not certified kosher are also not purchased by non-Jews that care about
> such things.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> Since so many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products,

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> a company that didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes, and higher costs that far exceed the
> cost of inspection and certification.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> For those like Sqwertz, they could form a company that produced foods
> that were certified to not be kosher, and could charge higher prices
> for such foods because they would be specialty foods not intended for
> the mass market.

Mindlessly silly.

SMS > wrote:
> Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>
>> I think they're wrong about the increased price, but even if they
>> weren't, they're right about the rest of it.
>
> If the manufacturer was able to sell the same volume, with or without
> the kosher certification, they'd be right. They are wrong because in
> reality the kosher certification results in much higher volumes of
> sales, especially to non-Jews that try to buy kosher products for
> non-religious reasons.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

>> And, as others have pointed out, if you don't want to buy kosher
>> products, you don't have to.

> It actually can be difficult. Most manufacturers certify every
> possible product as kosher because it's more profitable to do so.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> You might find some certified organic products that feel that additional certification is unnecessary,

No might about it.

> and that even most non-super orthodox Jews that keep nominally kosher will accept the organic certification as good
> enough, at least on non-meat products.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

SMS > wrote:
> Bill wrote:
>>
>> Sqwertz wrote:
>>> Sheldon <Sheldon >> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Kosher costs nothing extra.
>>> Yes, it does. Like advertising, the costs of certifying your
>>> products kosher is passed along to the consumers.
>>>
>>> -sw
>>
>> So then be sure to buy the items that are not certified kosher.
>> There are plenty of them out there. Be sure to tell us if
>> they're any cheap than the ones that are certified kosher (and I
>> don't mean meat items that are obviously going to be more
>> expensive if they're kosher).

> Actually the kosher certification lowers the price of goods because it enables the manufacturer to sell far higher
> volumes.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> Jews are a tiny percentage of those consumers that demand Kosher certification.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> I live in an area with a very small Jewish population, yet many of the stores around here make a big deal about the
> high number of kosher products that they sell.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

SMS > wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
>
>> What else would you call these private corporations set up to
>> certify your products kosher for large, reoccurring fees, or else be
>> subjected to a boycott by the Jewish community?

> Jews are only a tiny percentage of the customer base that prefer to purchase kosher foods.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> It has nothing to do with religion, it's that it's an independent and recurring inspection of the production
> facilities of these food manufacturers by trusted organizations.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> It's profitable to the food manufacturers to have the kosher
> certification because it greatly increases their sales volumes to
> non-jews, generating far more money than the small cost of
> certification. It also lowers prices for the consumer when the
> manufacturer is able to sell in higher volumes.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> If there were another type of certification that provided similar
> assurances of production quality then that would probably be equally acceptable to consumers, but the certification
> process wouldn't be any cheaper, i.e. organic certification.

You aint just paying for the certification with those.

>> If it was truly for religious reasons, wouldn't it be done on a volunteer basis as an act of goodwill?

> No. Doing these inspections is a full time job.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

>> There doesn't seem to be any basis for these arbitrary dietary laws in the first place, except to keep you aware of
>> your faith and the threat of going to hell if you don't obey these laws.

> Some of them are arbitrary,

ALL of them are arbitrary.

> some had a basis that no longer exists,

ALL of them have a basis that no longer exists.

> some have a basis that still exists.

Nope, not one.

> Hell has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with why you are sposed to comply with those arbitrary rules.

> But of course you probably knew all of this anyway.

Pathetic.

SMS <SMS >> wrote:

> Since so
> many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company that
> didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes

Non-kosher people couldn't care less about whether a product is
Kosher or not. And if they do really care, then they're as dumb as
a doorstop.

-sw

SMS <SMS >> wrote:

> Actually the kosher certification lowers the price of goods because it
> enables the manufacturer to sell far higher volumes.

That is so blown out of proportion. It's a ridiculous claim.

> I live in an area with a very small Jewish population, yet many of the
> stores around here make a big deal about the high number of kosher
> products that they sell.

Kosher is not any sort of indicator of quality, and people who
believe this are, again, dumb as doorstops.

-sw

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 06:13:58 +1100, "Rod Speed"
> wrote:

>SMS > wrote:
>> Jonathan Kamens wrote:
>>> Sqwertz > writes:
>>>> Obtaining payment from another by threat of harm is certainly
>>>> extortion.
>>>
>>> Obtaining payment from another for a service rendered is not
>>> extortion. Companies that do not wish to have their products
>>> certified kosher do not need to avail themselves of the service
>>> offered by the certification agencies and thus do not need to pay
>>> for it. Ther eis no "threat."
>>>
>>> Products that are not certified kosher are not purchased by Jews who
>>> care about such things. This is not a "boycott," it is capitalism in
>>> action.
>>
>> But the real reason for the huge increase in the number of certified
>> kosher products is because products that are not certified kosher are also not purchased by non-Jews that care about
>> such things.
>
>Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

http://health.usnews.com/articles/he...ood-safer.html
Is Kosher Food Safer?
By Deborah Kotz
Posted January 11, 2008

"Not only Jews look for the kosher symbol on food these days. In a
surprising turn of events, "kosher" has become the most popular claim
on new food products, trouncing "organic" and "no additives or
preservatives," according to a recent report. A noteworthy 4,719 new
kosher items were launched in the United States last year—nearly
double the number of new "all natural" products, which placed second
in the report, issued last month by Mintel, a Chicago-based market
research firm.

In fact, sales of kosher foods have risen an estimated 15 percent a
year for the past decade. Yet Jews, whose religious doctrine mandates
the observance of kosher dietary laws, make up only 20 percent of
those buying kosher products. What gives? "It's the belief among all
consumers that kosher food is safer, a critical thing right now with
worries about the integrity of the food supply," says Marcia
Mogelonsky, a senior research analyst at Mintel."
>
>> Since so many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products,
>
>Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

See above
>
>> a company that didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes, and higher costs that far exceed the
>> cost of inspection and certification.
>
>Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

See above

Boron

Boron Elgar > wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> SMS > wrote
>>> Jonathan Kamens wrote
>>>> Sqwertz > writes

>>>>> Obtaining payment from another by threat of harm is certainly extortion.

>>>> Obtaining payment from another for a service rendered is not
>>>> extortion. Companies that do not wish to have their products
>>>> certified kosher do not need to avail themselves of the service
>>>> offered by the certification agencies and thus do not need to pay
>>>> for it. Ther eis no "threat."

>>>> Products that are not certified kosher are not purchased by Jews who
>>>> care about such things. This is not a "boycott," it is capitalism in action.

>>> But the real reason for the huge increase in the number of certified
>>> kosher products is because products that are not certified kosher
>>> are also not purchased by non-Jews that care about such things.

>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> http://health.usnews.com/articles/he...ood-safer.html

Doesnt do a damned thing to substantiate that claim.

In spades with his other even sillier claim that the vast bulk
of deliberate purchases of kosher food is by non jews.

> Is Kosher Food Safer?
> By Deborah Kotz
> Posted January 11, 2008

> "Not only Jews look for the kosher symbol on food these days.
> In a surprising turn of events, "kosher" has become the most
> popular claim on new food products, trouncing "organic" and
> "no additives or preservatives," according to a recent report.

Different matter entirely to the claim he made.

> A noteworthy 4,719 new kosher items were launched in the
> United States last year-nearly double the number of new "all
> natural" products, which placed second in the report, issued
> last month by Mintel, a Chicago-based market research firm.

> In fact, sales of kosher foods have risen an
> estimated 15 percent a year for the past decade.

Different matter entirely to the claim he made.

> Yet Jews, whose religious doctrine mandates
> the observance of kosher dietary laws, make
> up only 20 percent of those buying kosher products.

Doesnt mean that the non jews who bought them did that because of
the kosher label, the other obvious explanation is that the bulk of what
non jews buy just happens to have a kosher label and the non jews dont
even bother to check whether what they buy is labelled like that or not.

> What gives? "It's the belief among all consumers that
> kosher food is safer, a critical thing right now with
> worries about the integrity of the food supply," says
> Marcia Mogelonsky, a senior research analyst at Mintel."

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

>>> Since so many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products,

>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> See above

Completely useless as a substantiation for that particular claim.

>>> a company that didn't get certification would have
>>> far lower production volumes, and higher costs
>>> that far exceed the cost of inspection and certification.

>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> See above

Completely useless as a substantiation for that particular claim.

James Silverton wrote:

> I have no religious reasons for worrying about it but claiming something
> is kosher or pareve when it is not is fraud and will be treated as such
> in my state. I won't go into stories I have heard that inspecting is a
> job for the owner's no-good, barely qualified son-in-law.

"Although most gelatin is considered non-kosher, several prominent
rabbinic authorities have noted that gelatin undergoes such extensive
processing and chemical changes that it no longer has the status of
meat, and as such may be considered parve and kosher. This is the
position adopted by some Orthodox rabbis, including Rabbi Ovadia Yosef,
the former Sephardic Chief Rabbi of Israel. Conservative rabbis also say
that gelatin is kosher because it undergoes "such a complete change." An
explanation of the legal principles surrounding this ruling can be found
in the United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism's publication Keeping
Kosher: A Diet For the Soul (2000)."

Sqwertz wrote:
> SMS <SMS >> wrote:
>
>> Since so
>> many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company that
>> didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes
>
> Non-kosher people couldn't care less about whether a product is
> Kosher or not. And if they do really care, then they're as dumb as
> a doorstop.

That's where you're mistaken.

Ask any food producer why they bother to get their products certified as
kosher when the number of consumers that keep kosher is so miniscule
(only a tiny percentage of Jews, plus some some Moslems that eat Halal
foods will also eat kosher foods). It's because the market for kosher
foods is mainly for non-Jews that believe that the inspections of the
production facilities and ingredients are an assurance of cleanliness
and purity. While this is true, it's important to realize that kosher
certification is no guarantee that the food is actually healthy for you!

Sqwertz wrote:
> SMS <SMS >> wrote:
>
>> Since so
>> many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company that
>> didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes
>
> Non-kosher people couldn't care less about whether a product is
> Kosher or not. And if they do really care, then they're as dumb as
> a doorstop.
>
> -sw

"http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/kosher-food-chosen-food-unchosen-people-247759.html"
"http://www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=60"
"http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/295856_growingkosher14.html"

The reason people care is that they believe that the inspections ensure
that kosher food is safer. In some cases kosher food is not any safer,
in some cases it is, but not because of the ingredients. Of course a
non-kosher producer could choose to follow the same procedures without
and independent certification, or they could choose some other sort of
certification. Thank the Jews for doing what the government doesn't do!

On Thu, 20 Mar 2008 09:20:21 +1100, "Rod Speed"
> wrote:

>Boron Elgar > wrote
>> Rod Speed > wrote
>>> SMS > wrote
>>>> Jonathan Kamens wrote
>>>>> Sqwertz > writes
>
>>>>>> Obtaining payment from another by threat of harm is certainly extortion.
>
>>>>> Obtaining payment from another for a service rendered is not
>>>>> extortion. Companies that do not wish to have their products
>>>>> certified kosher do not need to avail themselves of the service
>>>>> offered by the certification agencies and thus do not need to pay
>>>>> for it. Ther eis no "threat."
>
>>>>> Products that are not certified kosher are not purchased by Jews who
>>>>> care about such things. This is not a "boycott," it is capitalism in action.
>
>>>> But the real reason for the huge increase in the number of certified
>>>> kosher products is because products that are not certified kosher
>>>> are also not purchased by non-Jews that care about such things.
>
>>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.
>
>> http://health.usnews.com/articles/he...ood-safer.html
>
>Doesnt do a damned thing to substantiate that claim.

Actually it does, and does so with numbers.
>
>In spades with his other even sillier claim that the vast bulk
>of deliberate purchases of kosher food is by non jews.

Let's see you refute it with a citation of your own...you know...one
that you don't have to reach too far up your ass to get.

Since all you are providing is BS to counter the citation I provide, I
say, put up or shut up. Granted, I picked up this thread from rfc, not
your own personal wallow, I'll keep looking for you to provide some
hard facts to prove your point or disprove what the page above
indicates - that non-Jews will purchase kosher certified foods because
they
>
>> Is Kosher Food Safer?
>> By Deborah Kotz
>> Posted January 11, 2008
>
>> "Not only Jews look for the kosher symbol on food these days.
>> In a surprising turn of events, "kosher" has become the most
>> popular claim on new food products, trouncing "organic" and
>> "no additives or preservatives," according to a recent report.
>
>Different matter entirely to the claim he made.

Well, no, chub scratcher, it isn't. If you have trouble reading for
comprehension, get someone to translate for you.

As I said, disprove it or refute it with an outside source, or STFU,
because you don't know what you're talking about...which I see is
common behavior in your case.

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:

> Actually it does, and does so with numbers.

Still, the numbers are all over the place.

"only 21 percent of the 10.5 million Americans who buy kosher do it for
purely religious reasons."

"Hebrew National, which had sales in excess of $100 million last year,
now estimates that nearly 75% of its customers are non-Jews."

"Empire says observant Jews made up only 25% of its $120 million in
sales last year."

> Let's see you refute it with a citation of your own...you know...one
> that you don't have to reach too far up your ass to get.

LOL, you're asking Rod for a citation? Funny stuff! How could he
possibly have citations for anything he posts? He's the most clueless
poster on Usenet, bar none.

Boron Elgar > wrote
> Rod Speed > wrote
>> Boron Elgar > wrote
>>> Rod Speed > wrote
>>>> SMS > wrote
>>>>> Jonathan Kamens wrote
>>>>>> Sqwertz > writes

>>>>>>> Obtaining payment from another by threat of harm is certainly extortion.

>>>>>> Obtaining payment from another for a service rendered is not
>>>>>> extortion. Companies that do not wish to have their products
>>>>>> certified kosher do not need to avail themselves of the service
>>>>>> offered by the certification agencies and thus do not need to pay
>>>>>> for it. Ther eis no "threat."

>>>>>> Products that are not certified kosher are not purchased by Jews who
>>>>>> care about such things. This is not a "boycott," it is capitalism in action.

>>>>> But the real reason for the huge increase in the number of
>>>>> certified kosher products is because products that are not
>>>>> certified kosher are also not purchased by non-Jews that care
>>>>> about such things.

>>>> Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

>>> http://health.usnews.com/articles/he...ood-safer.html

>> Doesnt do a damned thing to substantiate that claim.

> Actually it does,

No it doesnt.

> and does so with numbers.

Not with any relevant numbers. In spades with the next claim he made.

>> In spades with his other even sillier claim that the vast bulk
>> of deliberate purchases of kosher food is by non jews.

> Let's see you refute it with a citation of your own...

HE made that claim.

HE gets to substantiate that claim.

THATS how it works.

> Since all you are providing is BS

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> to counter the citation I provide,

Which doesnt even substantiate the claim HE made.

> I say, put up or shut up.

And I say

HE made that claim.

HE gets to substantiate that claim.

THATS how it works.

> I'll keep looking for you to provide some hard facts to prove
> your point or disprove what the page above indicates - that
> non-Jews will purchase kosher certified foods because they

That wasnt even the claim he made, so your cite is completely irrelevant to the claims he made.

>>> Is Kosher Food Safer?
>>> By Deborah Kotz
>>> Posted January 11, 2008
>>
>>> "Not only Jews look for the kosher symbol on food these days.
>>> In a surprising turn of events, "kosher" has become the most
>>> popular claim on new food products, trouncing "organic" and
>>> "no additives or preservatives," according to a recent report.

>> Different matter entirely to the claim he made.

> Well, no, chub scratcher, it isn't.

Corse it is, arsehole.

> As I said, disprove it or refute it with an outside source, or STFU,

HE made that claim.

HE gets to substantiate that claim.

THATS how it works.

SMS > wrote
> Boron Elgar wrote

>> Actually it does, and does so with numbers.

> Still, the numbers are all over the place.

And they dont even say where those numbers come from anyway.

> "only 21 percent of the 10.5 million Americans who buy kosher do it for purely religious reasons."

And it isnt clear how many of the rest even choose kosher products deliberately.

> "Hebrew National, which had sales in excess of $100 million last year,
> now estimates that nearly 75% of its customers are non-Jews."

And that may just be because they are a convenient way to buy stuff,
not because those who do that do it because they are kosher at all.

> "Empire says observant Jews made up only 25% of its $120 million in sales last year."

Ditto.

>> Let's see you refute it with a citation of your own...you know...one
>> that you don't have to reach too far up your ass to get.

> LOL, you're asking Rod for a citation? Funny stuff! How could he possibly have citations for anything he posts? He's
> the most clueless poster on Usenet, bar none.

YOU made that claims

YOU gets to substantiate those claims.

THATS how it works.

SMS > wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
>> SMS <SMS >> wrote:
>>
>>> Since so
>>> many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company
>>> that didn't get certification would have far lower production
>>> volumes
>>
>> Non-kosher people couldn't care less about whether a product is
>> Kosher or not. And if they do really care, then they're as dumb as
>> a doorstop.
>
> That's where you're mistaken.
>
> Ask any food producer why they bother to get their products certified
> as kosher when the number of consumers that keep kosher is so
> miniscule (only a tiny percentage of Jews, plus some some Moslems
> that eat Halal foods will also eat kosher foods). It's because the
> market for kosher foods is mainly for non-Jews that believe that the
> inspections of the production facilities and ingredients are an
> assurance of cleanliness and purity.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> While this is true, it's important to realize that kosher certification is no guarantee that the food is actually
> healthy for you!

SMS > wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
>> SMS <SMS >> wrote:
>>
>>> Since so
>>> many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company
>>> that didn't get certification would have far lower production
>>> volumes
>>
>> Non-kosher people couldn't care less about whether a product is
>> Kosher or not. And if they do really care, then they're as dumb as
>> a doorstop.

> "http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/kosher-food-chosen-food-unchosen-people-247759.html"
> "http://www.ok.org/Content.asp?ID=60"

That one doesnt say anything like what you claimed.

> "http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/295856_growingkosher14.html"

Neither does that one either.

All of those just assert that, they dont cite a shred of evidence to substantiate those assertions.

> The reason people care is that they believe that the inspections ensure that kosher food is safer.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> In some cases kosher food is not any safer, in some cases it is, but not because of the ingredients.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to substantiate that claim.

> Of course a non-kosher producer could choose to follow the same procedures without and independent certification, or
> they could choose some other sort of certification. Thank the Jews for doing what the government doesn't do!

No thanks, not interested in their stupid mindless rules.

SMS <SMS >> wrote:

> Sqwertz wrote:
>> SMS <SMS >> wrote:
>>
>>> Since so
>>> many non-Jewish consumers prefer to buy kosher products, a company that
>>> didn't get certification would have far lower production volumes
>>
>> Non-kosher people couldn't care less about whether a product is
>> Kosher or not. And if they do really care, then they're as dumb as
>> a doorstop.
>
> That's where you're mistaken.
>
> Ask any food producer why they bother to get their products certified as
> kosher when the number of consumers that keep kosher is so miniscule
> (only a tiny percentage of Jews, plus some some Moslems that eat Halal
> foods will also eat kosher foods). It's because the market for kosher
> foods is mainly for non-Jews that believe that the inspections of the
> production facilities and ingredients are an assurance of cleanliness
> and purity. While this is true, it's important to realize that kosher
> certification is no guarantee that the food is actually healthy for you!

And how often are these facilities inspected by their certifying
organizations? Now compare that to the USDA inspectors that are
*always* on site in many food production facilities.

-sw

SMS <SMS >> wrote:

> "Hebrew National, which had sales in excess of $100 million last year,
> now estimates that nearly 75% of its customers are non-Jews."

I happen to like HN, but I don't buy them because they're kosher.
The kosherness has no bearing on my decision to buy HN products, and
I suspect most non-kosher people don't give a rats ass woether -
they buy them beacause they taste good.

This is like Campbell's or Vlassic claiming that 99% of their
products are bought by non-Jews because they're certified kosher.

There don't see any *unbiased* statistics on non-kosher people who
buy kosher foods just because they're kosher, rather than they just
prefer the brand. Though I certainly admit buying things like
Empire Chicken is probably on the rise, but not for any rational
reason. Kosher standards do nothing to promote actual quality or
wholesomeness from an agnostic viewpoint - it's all just perception.

-sw

Sqwertz > writes:
>And how often are these facilities inspected by their certifying
>organizations? Now compare that to the USDA inspectors that are
>*always* on site in many food production facilities.

.... and we all know how well that worked at that meat-packing plant.

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Sqwertz > writes:
>This is like Campbell's or Vlassic claiming that 99% of their
>products are bought by non-Jews because they're certified kosher.

Exactly one out of Campbell's entire product line is kosher.

>Though I certainly admit buying things like
>Empire Chicken is probably on the rise, but not for any rational
>reason. Kosher standards do nothing to promote actual quality or
>wholesomeness from an agnostic viewpoint - it's all just perception.

Empire chicken consistently wins blind taste tests. It certainly
seems "rational" to buy a particular food brand because you prefer its
taste to the other brands.

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Jonathan Kamens <Jonathan Kamens >>
wrote:

> Sqwertz > writes:
>>And how often are these facilities inspected by their certifying
>>organizations? Now compare that to the USDA inspectors that are
>>*always* on site in many food production facilities.
>
> ... and we all know how well that worked at that meat-packing plant.

When kosher meat production reaches the same scale as non-kosher
production, the same thing will happen at the kosher plants. Here's
some to get the rolling...

<http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/news/ng.asp?id=83660-agriprocessors-srm-hallmark-westland>
<http://www.health.ri.gov/media/050202a.php>

<http://www.sussex.nj.us/Cit-e-Access/news/index.cfm?NID=8218&TID=7&jump2=0&DID=1315>
(and many more for undeclared ingredients, which really sheds a lot
of skepticism on this whole Kosher certification procedure)

-sw

Jonathan Kamens <Jonathan Kamens >>
wrote:

> Sqwertz > writes:
>>This is like Campbell's or Vlassic claiming that 99% of their
>>products are bought by non-Jews because they're certified kosher.
>
> Exactly one out of Campbell's entire product line is kosher.

It was a bad example. There are plenty of manufacturers using the
(K) and (U)'s onm their complete product line. That doesn't make
them sell better, nor imply they're quality products.

>>Though I certainly admit buying things like
>>Empire Chicken is probably on the rise, but not for any rational
>>reason. Kosher standards do nothing to promote actual quality or
>>wholesomeness from an agnostic viewpoint - it's all just perception.
>
> Empire chicken consistently wins blind taste tests.

Because it's salted. Kosher poultry often contains more fat as
well.

Doesn't look like Empire won this round:
http://www.cooksillustrated.com/imag...ing-Turkey.pdf

And why did another kosher brand win? High fat and salt content.

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:
> SMS <SMS >> wrote:
>
>> "Hebrew National, which had sales in excess of $100 million last year,
>> now estimates that nearly 75% of its customers are non-Jews."
>
> I happen to like HN, but I don't buy them because they're kosher.
> The kosherness has no bearing on my decision to buy HN products, and
> I suspect most non-kosher people don't give a rats ass woether -
> they buy them beacause they taste good.

Actually hot dogs is one of the only foods where most non-kosher
customers_do_ actually care a lot about the certification, simply
because of what goes into non-kosher hot dogs.

SMS > wrote
> Sqwertz wrote
>> SMS <SMS >> wrote

>>> "Hebrew National, which had sales in excess of $100 million last
>>> year, now estimates that nearly 75% of its customers are non-Jews."

>> I happen to like HN, but I don't buy them because they're kosher.
>> The kosherness has no bearing on my decision to buy HN products, and I suspect most non-kosher people don't give a
>> rats ass woether -
>> they buy them beacause they taste good.

> Actually hot dogs is one of the only foods where most non-kosher
> customers_do_ actually care a lot about the certification, simply
> because of what goes into non-kosher hot dogs.

Easy to claim, hell of a lot harder to actually substantiate that claim.

Sqwertz > writes:
>It was a bad example. There are plenty of manufacturers using the
>(K) and (U)'s onm their complete product line. That doesn't make
>them sell better, nor imply they're quality products.

Several people have provided references to third-party market studies
and quotes from manufacturers about the fact that products with kosher
certifications sell better. You have, in response, provided only your
opinion that they don't. Considering that you're an anti-semitic
twit, your opinion isn't really worth reliable on this subject.

>>>Though I certainly admit buying things like
>>>Empire Chicken is probably on the rise, but not for any rational
>>>reason. Kosher standards do nothing to promote actual quality or
>>>wholesomeness from an agnostic viewpoint - it's all just perception.
>>
>> Empire chicken consistently wins blind taste tests.
>
>Because it's salted. Kosher poultry often contains more fat as
>well.

My, aren't you good at changing the subject. You said that there's no
rational reason for people to buy kosher Empire chicken rather than
non-kosher chicken. I responded that it's because they like the taste
better. You responded, completely irrelevantly, that it's because
there's more salt and fat. Um, so what? It doesn't matter *why*
people like the taste better, they *do* like the taste better, so there
*is* a rational reason why people buy Empire chickens, so you were
*wrong*.

Perhaps rather than trying to change the subject you should simply
admit that you were wrong and move on.

Nah, that'll never happen.

--
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http://www.genocideintervention.net/

Jonathan Kamens <Jonathan Kamens >>
wrote:

> Sqwertz > writes:
>>It was a bad example. There are plenty of manufacturers using the
>>(K) and (U)'s onm their complete product line. That doesn't make
>>them sell better, nor imply they're quality products.
>
> Several people have provided references to third-party market studies
> and quotes from manufacturers about the fact that products with kosher
> certifications sell better. You have, in response, provided only your
> opinion that they don't. Considering that you're an anti-semitic
> twit, your opinion isn't really worth reliable on this subject.

And I pointed out the faults in several of those comments.

As for being anti-semite, you do a good job of enforcing this. I
think anybody who follows religion this closely is a moron, so don't
take it personally.

>>> Empire chicken consistently wins blind taste tests.
>>
>>Because it's salted. Kosher poultry often contains more fat as
>>well.
>
> My, aren't you good at changing the subject. You said that there's no
> rational reason for people to buy kosher Empire chicken rather than
> non-kosher chicken.

Oh, so now you're making up quotes from me, putting words into my
mouth?

This is where your case falls apart - when you rest to these kinds
of tactics.

> Perhaps rather than trying to change the subject you should simply
> admit that you were wrong and move on.

Ahh, now you've jumped from misquoting what I said, falsely accuse
me of evading the *your* subject, and claim victory. Typical Kook
style.

Why is religious people make the best hypocrites?

-sw

Jonathan Kamens wrote:
> Sqwertz > writes:
>> It was a bad example. There are plenty of manufacturers using the
>> (K) and (U)'s onm their complete product line. That doesn't make
>> them sell better, nor imply they're quality products.
>
> Several people have provided references to third-party market studies
> and quotes from manufacturers about the fact that products with kosher
> certifications sell better. You have, in response, provided only your
> opinion that they don't. Considering that you're an anti-semitic
> twit, your opinion isn't really worth reliable on this subject.

I guess what he thinks is that the reason that the kosher products sell
better is unrelated to the fact that even many non-Jews prefer to buy
kosher products when available.

> My, aren't you good at changing the subject. You said that there's no
> rational reason for people to buy kosher Empire chicken rather than
> non-kosher chicken. I responded that it's because they like the taste
> better. You responded, completely irrelevantly, that it's because
> there's more salt and fat. Um, so what? It doesn't matter *why*
> people like the taste better, they *do* like the taste better, so there
> *is* a rational reason why people buy Empire chickens, so you were
> *wrong*.

That is correct. Of course the other chicken growers are free to add
more salt to their product, but it probably wouldn't help the taste much
since the mass produced chickens taste so bad to begin with. Actually
the best chicken I've had are the fresh chickens from in Chinatown San
Francisco, and some of the free-range chickens. But these are even more
expensive than kosher chicken. It's the Chinese tax and the free-range
tax that those of us that like these products must pay.

Jonathan Kamens > wrote
> Sqwertz > writes
>> Jonathan Kamens > wrote

>>> Exactly one out of Campbell's entire product line is kosher.

>> It was a bad example. There are plenty of manufacturers using
>> the (K) and (U)'s onm their complete product line. That doesn't
>> make them sell better, nor imply they're quality products.

> Several people have provided references to third-party
> market studies and quotes from manufacturers about the
> fact that products with kosher certifications sell better.

Not one of those actually established that they sell better BECAUSE
of the kosher certification, and your example, Campbell, shows that
its nothing like as black and white as you state there too.

> You have, in response, provided only your opinion that they don't.

It aint just his opinion, its clearly also Campbell's opinion too, cited by you.

> Considering that you're an anti-semitic twit, your
> opinion isn't really worth reliable on this subject.

But Campbell's opinion clearly is worth considering and since you made
that claim yourself, you presumably believe that the story is as you stated.

You just refuse to acknowledge what that action of Campbell's
clearly indicates on the value of Kosher certification to sales.

>>>> Though I certainly admit buying things like Empire Chicken
>>>> is probably on the rise, but not for any rational reason. Kosher
>>>> standards do nothing to promote actual quality or wholesomeness
>>>> from an agnostic viewpoint - it's all just perception.

>>> Empire chicken consistently wins blind taste tests.

>> Because it's salted. Kosher poultry often contains more fat as well.

> My, aren't you good at changing the subject.

He isnt changing the subject, the subject is still why that particular
product sells well and consistently wins blind taste tests too.

That last is you changing the subject yourself if anything.

> You said that there's no rational reason for people to buy
> kosher Empire chicken rather than non-kosher chicken.
> I responded that it's because they like the taste better.

But NOT because its kosher certified. Because as you admit, it tastes better.

> You responded, completely irrelevantly,
> that it's because there's more salt and fat.

Its completely relevant to why its preferred.

> Um, so what?

Thats why it sells well, as you yourself stated.

Not because its kosher certified.

> It doesn't matter *why* people like the taste better,

Yes it does.

> they *do* like the taste better, so there *is* a
> rational reason why people buy Empire chickens,

And that isnt because its kosher certified.

> so you were *wrong*.

Nope, he stated that they arent buying it because its kosher certified and you
provided the evidence of why they are buying it, because it tastes better.

> Perhaps rather than trying to change the subject

He didnt change the subject at all. What he said is what is being discussed, whether
very many non jews buy kosher certified products, BECAUSE they are certified.

> you should simply admit that you were wrong and move on.

He aint wrong, so there is nothing to admit.

> Nah, that'll never happen.

You in spades. Bet you wont have the balls to admit you are wrong yourself.

Sqwertz > writes:
>> My, aren't you good at changing the subject. You said that there's no
>> rational reason for people to buy kosher Empire chicken rather than
>> non-kosher chicken.
>
>Oh, so now you're making up quotes from me, putting words into my
>mouth?

"Though I certainly admit buying things like Empire Chicken is
probably on the rise, but not for any rational reason."

*plonk*

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