George wrote:
> George Shirley wrote:
>
>> We've got the same stuff going on here, another new motel in our small
>> town, about $2B in heavy construction scheduled and working. Three LNG
>> plants being built and only about 35 miles away another $4B in heavy
>> construction, all of which affects our workforce. The whole area is
>> short on trained crafts people for heavy construction.
>>
>> George
>
> Can I suggest that what you are seeing reflects the condition of the
> economy in the past? Large projects take years of planning and almost
> never reflect shorter trends. The funds for those projects were approved
> a long time ago.
>
> The segment that is currently tanked is residential construction because
> of the bubble that imploded. There were greedy bankers with their
> "sophisticated computer models" making loans to greedy people who
> clearly couldn't afford what they were buying coupled with the over
> leveraged flippers who behaved like they were at the casino and thought
> there were no limits to how much they could make. Add in the creative
> banking where they used smoke and mirrors to create sub prime
> derivatives that no one admits to understanding to sell these dubious
> mortgages to others. Yet greedy bankers bought and sold them including
> some extra greedy ones like Merrill who actually bought their own crap
> paper.
Yeah, I can agree to the long ago project time. I personally worked on
twelve grass roots petrochemical projects in my 47 year working career.
All were in the planning stages for a minimum of five years and the
longest at about twelve years.

I also agree on the residential housing bust. We have had to shake our
heads over the way some people are mortgaging their future in order to
have now what their parents took thirty years to achieve. One of my kids
asked about a refi on their house for 125% of the value and the hope of
flipping it within a year. My advice was avoid it like the plague. Was
really surprised when they listened. In my estimation it was all a giant
Ponzi scheme.

George wrote:
>
> George Shirley wrote:
>
> > We've got the same stuff going on here, another new motel in our small
> > town, about $2B in heavy construction scheduled and working. Three LNG
> > plants being built and only about 35 miles away another $4B in heavy
> > construction, all of which affects our workforce. The whole area is
> > short on trained crafts people for heavy construction.
> >
> > George
>
> Can I suggest that what you are seeing reflects the condition of the
> economy in the past? Large projects take years of planning and almost
> never reflect shorter trends. The funds for those projects were approved
> a long time ago.

Not really. While those projects take years of planning and are funded
well in advance, the plug can be pulled at any time and the project
shelved for the future if it appears that the economy isn't going to
support that new shopping center of manufacturing plant expansion.

The fact that these projects are going forward indicates that the people
behind them are confident that any issues with the economy will be short
lived. As I noted in my other post, the owners of several manufacturing
companies have indicated they are swamped with orders and hiring all the
qualified folks they can, and that is present conditions, not something
planned in the past.

>
> The segment that is currently tanked is residential construction because
> of the bubble that imploded. There were greedy bankers with their
> "sophisticated computer models" making loans to greedy people who
> clearly couldn't afford what they were buying coupled with the over
> leveraged flippers who behaved like they were at the casino and thought
> there were no limits to how much they could make. Add in the creative
> banking where they used smoke and mirrors to create sub prime
> derivatives that no one admits to understanding to sell these dubious
> mortgages to others. Yet greedy bankers bought and sold them including
> some extra greedy ones like Merrill who actually bought their own crap
> paper.

Yep, I think this sub prime bubble is the only part that is reality, and
I think it is having less effect than the media is trying to portray.
When you look past the media hype you realize there is a big disconnect
between what they are reporting and what is really happening.

I think the question we need to be asking is whether the media is hyping
this phantom recession just to attract viewers, or whether it is
politically motivated due to the upcoming elections.

Gloria P > wrote in
:

> Gotta love that Prius (as long as you're not on snow or
> ice...)

until you have to replace the battery...
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

Yesterday, regular was $3.54 at the BP in Farmington Hills, MI IF you
paid cash, $3.63 if you paid with any credit card.

In the city of Detroit there is a problem with people sawing
off/stealing catalytic converters and selling them to junkyards. Some
thieves are targeting school parking lots because they know the teachers
will be inside for hours.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> The message >
> from "Pete C." > contains these words:
>
> > Yep, I think this sub prime bubble is the only part that is reality, and
> > I think it is having less effect than the media is trying to portray.
> > When you look past the media hype you realize there is a big disconnect
> > between what they are reporting and what is really happening.
>
> > I think the question we need to be asking is whether the media is hyping
> > this phantom recession just to attract viewers, or whether it is
> > politically motivated due to the upcoming elections.
>
> What about house prices? Is it true that they are falling quite
> sharply in the US?
>
> Janet

Once again, yes and no. House prices were very inflated in some areas of
the US and in those areas they have indeed fallen sharply. Many other
areas of the US were not inflated and prices in those areas have fallen
little or even continued to grow in some areas. The hot spots may indeed
have fallen 30% or more, but other major areas like the Dallas metro
area are down like 4% at most.

Miche wrote:

>
> Either way, no big, I get as amused by complaints that chicken is up to
> $2/pound (the best price I can get here is usually on the order of
> $5/pound) as I do by complaints about the price of petrol.
>
> Miche
>

Before you compare the price differences You need to look at
minimum hourly wage and average wages plus the lack of guaranteed
government entitlements.

It's very easy to be amused when you don't take into account that the
U.S. retirement benefits are low, higher education is very expensive,
medical costs out of pocket are outrageous. We are moving more and more
toward becoming a country where there is ultra-wealth and relative poverty.

gloria p

On Wed 30 Apr 2008 04:34:16a, Nancy Young told us...

>
> "Wayne Boatwright" > wrote
>
>> On Tue 29 Apr 2008 08:28:58p, Nancy Young told us...
>
>>> I wondered about that, you hear about people stealing copper wire,
>>> pipes, etc., to sell and I think who is buying it. Put a stop to it
>>> there. Not as if everyone has a smelter in their basement.
>
>> We don't have a basement, but we do have a shed. :-)
>
> True enough! Where you live, no need for a smelter anyway!
>
> nancy
>
>
>

LOL! Yep, just lay it out on the ground.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Wednesday, 04(IV)/30(XXX)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
Countdown till Memorial Day
3wks 4dys 13hrs 45mins
-------------------------------------------
A cat's purr: Most effective stress
medicine known.
-------------------------------------------

George wrote:

> The segment that is currently tanked is residential construction because
> of the bubble that imploded. There were greedy bankers with their
> "sophisticated computer models" making loans to greedy people who
> clearly couldn't afford what they were buying coupled with the over
> leveraged flippers who behaved like they were at the casino and thought
> there were no limits to how much they could make. Add in the creative
> banking where they used smoke and mirrors to create sub prime
> derivatives that no one admits to understanding to sell these dubious
> mortgages to others. Yet greedy bankers bought and sold them including
> some extra greedy ones like Merrill who actually bought their own crap
> paper.

Let us not forget the realtor sharks and appraiser whores whose
interests were in raising prices in order to get listings, fatten
commissions and fees, and assure frequent property turnovers, thus a
recurring market for their services.

As an example: a house in our neighborhood had been unoccupied and
becoming more and more run down for ~10 years (absentee owner) and was
finally put on the market for $500K. After a year of no interest, the
price was gradually reduced to $280K. The mortgage appraisal came in at
$600K and the couple who bought the house thought they were gettinbg a
great deal, despite the condition. They recently decided to refinance
to help with the high remjodeling cost. The appraisal this time? $250K.

What's wrong with this picture?

gloria p

enigma wrote:
> Gloria P > wrote in
> :
>
>> Gotta love that Prius (as long as you're not on snow or
>> ice...)
>
> until you have to replace the battery...
> lee


Guaranteed for 10 years. By that time either the price will come down
or our company's battery will be ready as a replacement. Right now ours
is being used as a supplement to provide plug-in charging and additional
electric mileage:

http://www.pluginconversions.com/phevs1.html

gloria p

Janet Baraclough wrote:

>
> What about house prices? Is it true that they are falling quite
> sharply in the US?
>
> Janet

Sharply? Depends on the area. In Colorado urban areas it's been
5-10% but the rise over the past five years has been much higher than
was realistic. And mountain property is still soaring.

They are building 7 duplexes (14 units) at the base of Vail Mountain and
the price I heard quoted was "starting at $12 million each."

gloria p

On 2008-04-30, Gloria P > wrote:

> As an example: a house in our neighborhood had been unoccupied and
> becoming more and more run down for ~10 years (absentee owner) and was
> finally put on the market for $500K. After a year of no interest, the
> price was gradually reduced to $280K. The mortgage appraisal came in at
> $600K and the couple who bought the house thought they were gettinbg a
> great deal, despite the condition. They recently decided to refinance
> to help with the high remjodeling cost. The appraisal this time? $250K.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?

Tell 'em, true, Gloria. The Japanese housing market, which went through
this same bubble cycle and began declining 10 yrs ago, still hasn't
recovered. The whole thing is a house of cards, just like the dot com boom
and the savings and loan scandal before it. As long as our govt allows
scoundrels to walk away with a mere slap on their moneybag-burdened wrists,
these shell games will continue, unabated. What's a couple years in a
country club fed pen when you have millions socked away. Merely the price
of doing business. I wish I'd invested in Halliburton.

nb

Miche wrote:
> In article >,
> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
>> On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
>> Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529. I didn't read
>> the fine print, but I assumed that was for regular; I stopped at the
>> Holiday near me and filled up for $3.379 minus 11 cents/gallon with my
>> Cub discount slips.
>>
>> Oh, the counter guy at the station had just returned from chasing a
>> drive-off -- he got his license number. More and more of those
>> happening.
>
> Petrol here is about to hit $2/litre, so call it $7.50/US gallon.
>
> Miche
>
Here, regular grade is $1.226/litre (at least it was on Sunday; I
haven't checked in the last few days).

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:26:10 GMT, "Pete C." >
wrote:
>
>I think the question we need to be asking is whether the media is hyping
>this phantom recession just to attract viewers, or whether it is
>politically motivated due to the upcoming elections.

yeah, that durned old liberal media, which scrutinized george bush and
the glorious war for freedom in iraq so mercilessly.

all these people who are out of work and coping with the price of gas
more than doubling since 2000

<http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mg_rt_usw.htm>

....and noticing that food prices are going up seemingly by the day are
just imagining things, the poor dears.

your pal,
blake

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:05:36 -0400, flitterbit wrote:
>>
> Here, regular grade is $1.226/litre (at least it was on Sunday; I
> haven't checked in the last few days).

Regular here in Johannesburg, RSA area is currently US$1.15/litre (it
fluctuates on sort of a month-to-month basis). Where are you located if
you don't mind me asking?

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

Is that chip on your shoulder edible?

blake murphy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 13:26:10 GMT, "Pete C." >
> wrote:
> >
> >I think the question we need to be asking is whether the media is hyping
> >this phantom recession just to attract viewers, or whether it is
> >politically motivated due to the upcoming elections.
>
> yeah, that durned old liberal media, which scrutinized george bush and
> the glorious war for freedom in iraq so mercilessly.
>
> all these people who are out of work and coping with the price of gas
> more than doubling since 2000
>
> <http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/pet/hist/mg_rt_usw.htm>
>
> ...and noticing that food prices are going up seemingly by the day are
> just imagining things, the poor dears.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Yep, without a doubt there are problems in some areas, but it sure
doesn't appear to be anywhere near the coast to coast doom and gloom the
media is portraying it as.

Gloria P wrote:

>
> Let us not forget the realtor sharks and appraiser whores whose
> interests were in raising prices in order to get listings, fatten
> commissions and fees, and assure frequent property turnovers, thus a
> recurring market for their services.
>
> As an example: a house in our neighborhood had been unoccupied and
> becoming more and more run down for ~10 years (absentee owner) and was
> finally put on the market for $500K. After a year of no interest, the
> price was gradually reduced to $280K. The mortgage appraisal came in at
> $600K and the couple who bought the house thought they were gettinbg a
> great deal, despite the condition. They recently decided to refinance
> to help with the high remjodeling cost. The appraisal this time? $250K.
>
> What's wrong with this picture?

We had an interesting real estate transaction next door to me. The former
owners had been there close to 35 years. It is a nice house with three
bedrooms and a basement apartment and sits on 8 acres of property. The man
used to spend a lot of time working on the place but developed some health
problems and could no longer handle all the work involved in keeping it up.
Two years ago they moved to a smaller house and their son took it over. He is
a truck driver who is on the road 5-1/2 days per week, so on his day and a
half at home each weekend he had a ton of work to do. Mowing the front and
back yard alone took a few hours on his tractor, then there was the field
behind it and a lot of trees.

Last winter they decided to sell. They got in touch with the guy on the other
side of me who appraised it at $350,000. but their daughter had a friend in
the real estate business who said he could get them $450,000. They went with
the second guy. I knew some people who were interested, but they were only
offering $325,000 because it needed so much work.... painting though entire
house, new carpeting ,new roof, tree removal etc. It ended up going for
$355,000.

The new neighbour is a handy man. He has already painted all the interior,
removed the old wood burning stove which apparently was a major fire hazard.
He is going to do the rook himself. He has spent the last month cutting trees
and clearing out the brush along 50 yards of stream that runs through it.
There was so much brush that he has been burning it back there for more than a
week. I have been helping. It is a lot of work.

This is a prime case of a realtor overestimating the value by more than 30% in
order to get the listing.

ChattyCathy wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:05:36 -0400, flitterbit wrote:
> >>
> > Here, regular grade is $1.226/litre (at least it was on Sunday; I
> > haven't checked in the last few days).
>
> Regular here in Johannesburg, RSA area is currently US$1.15/litre (it
> fluctuates on sort of a month-to-month basis). Where are you located if
> you don't mind me asking?

He in the Niagara Peninsula regular gas is selling for $1.20 per litre and
it fluctuates daily.

Miche wrote:

> In article >,
> *Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article >,
> > *Billy <Hereiam@hotmaildotcom> wrote:
>
> > > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 15:59:19 -0500, Melba's Jammin'
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > >On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
> > > >Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529.
>
> > > A DEAL! * Just got back from Tampa/St. Pete.....3.579.....and why do
> > > we still price gas with a point five seven nine? * * *
>
> > > What is more absurd is to see someone at the pump putting in 3 dollars
> > > and then run into the counter and buy a bottle of water that is
> > > running in excess of 9.99 per gallon....now that's dumb. *
>
> > Damn! *Damn! *Damn! * * I canceled the article immediately after I
> > realized my error -- it was not meant for this group!! *Not even by
> > virtue of mentioning the supermarket was it about cooking! * Not quick
> > enough for some, I guess.
>
> My understanding is that not all servers honour cancels. *I honestly
> don't know whether the one I use does or not.
>
> Either way, no big, I get as amused by complaints that chicken is up to
> $2/pound (the best price I can get here is usually on the order of
> $5/pound) as I do by complaints about the price of petrol.


This is why I am so amused by the "Chicken Little" mode that the US
media has been in lately. Food and fuel in the US could both
practically double in price from what they are now and they'd *still*
be relative bargains compared to the rest of the world...or that the
average US household spends 10% of their income on food as compared to
around 25% or more 50 years ago. "Perspective" is not a term that the
US media is familiar with...but then the US as a whole has grown
relatively fat, lazy and complacent.


--
Best
Greg

Gloria P wrote:

> Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> > * *What about house prices? Is it true that they are falling quite
> > sharply *in the US?
>
> > * *Janet
>
> Sharply? *Depends on the area. *In Colorado urban areas it's been
> 5-10% but the rise over the past five years has been much higher than
> was realistic. *And mountain property is still soaring.
>
> They are building 7 duplexes (14 units) at the base of Vail Mountain and
> the price I heard quoted was *"starting at $12 million each."


Yup, HUGE amounts of luxury construction here in Chicago, especially
in and near the downtown Loop area. They are selling like
hotcakes...we've got a new Trump Tower going up and ground has been
broken on the Calatrava "Spiral", which will be one of the tallest
buildings in the world, and the tallest residential building.

In my area (north side of Chicago) the real estate market is still
pretty strong...as is the economy.

OTOH areas of Las Vegas, Florida, California are almost ghost towns
because of the foreclosure rate on folks with ARM mortgages and
marginal resources...these were "unstable" real estate markets from
the get - go.


--
Best
Greg

Giusi > wrote:

> "Victor Sack" > ha scritto
> >
> > Are you bragging? You get it practically for free. I now pay EUR 1.50
> > a litre here, that is $8.86 a gallon at the current rate of exchange.
>
> I pay euro 1.40 per liter.

I paid 1.50 per litre last Thursday at this petrol station:
<http://www.aral.de/toolserver/retaileurope/fuelstationhomepage.do?fuelstationid=20162600&cont entId=58622&categoryId=4000521>.
You can check the prices on the page if you enter the shown (CAPTCHA)
code. Right now, it is 1.489 per litre, whether for regular or super.

> > And my yearly mileage is probably higher than yours and Rob's together
> > by factor of at least two or three.
>
> Not mine. I have restricted my movements so severely I am growing moss on
> my north side.

I wish I could do so, too. As it were, I have to drive at least 160 km
(100 miles) every working day.

> > ObFood: Instead of consuming or producing gas on rec.food.cooking, make
> > semolina gnocchi, from _A Taste of Tuscany_ by Sandra Lotti.
> >
> > Gnocchi di semolino
> > Semolina Gnocchi
> >
> > 3. Pour into a wet flat work surface and using a spatula level the
> > semolina to a half-inch thickness. Cut into 2-inch squares.
> >
> > 4. Place the squares in a non-stick baking pan. Dust with Parmigiano
> > Reggiano. Dot with the remaining butter and bake for 10 minutes or
> > until lightly golden. Serve immediately.
>
> We were forced in school to instead use two sopup spoons to make smooth
> ovals of this mixture. I assume ours was a bit stiffer than yours. It was
> a lot of fuss and I wasn't that crazy for them.

Maybe it depends on the school. Sandra Lotti runs her own, apparently
well-regarded, Toscana Saporita Cooking School in the province of Lucca.
See <http://www.toscanasaporita.com/>.

Victor

Dave Smith wrote:

>
> Last winter they decided to sell. They got in touch with the guy on the other
> side of me who appraised it at $350,000. but their daughter had a friend in
> the real estate business who said he could get them $450,000. They went with
> the second guy. I knew some people who were interested, but they were only
> offering $325,000 because it needed so much work.... painting though entire
> house, new carpeting ,new roof, tree removal etc. It ended up going for
> $355,000.
>
> The new neighbour is a handy man. He has already painted all the interior,
> removed the old wood burning stove which apparently was a major fire hazard.
> He is going to do the rook himself. He has spent the last month cutting trees
> and clearing out the brush along 50 yards of stream that runs through it.
> There was so much brush that he has been burning it back there for more than a
> week. I have been helping. It is a lot of work.
>
> This is a prime case of a realtor overestimating the value by more than 30%



Yes, but do you kno0w how lucky you are getting your new neighbor?

I was sure your story was going to end with the property being sold
to a developer who would scrape off the original house and build 16
homes on the 8 acres. New development including houses over $1 million
are being built on 1/6 of an acre or less in suburban Denver. It's a
crime although we have no water to groom the bluegrass lawns so we're
told it's "for the best."

gloria p

Gloria P wrote:
>
> Dave Smith wrote:
>
> >
> > Last winter they decided to sell. They got in touch with the guy on the other
> > side of me who appraised it at $350,000. but their daughter had a friend in
> > the real estate business who said he could get them $450,000. They went with
> > the second guy. I knew some people who were interested, but they were only
> > offering $325,000 because it needed so much work.... painting though entire
> > house, new carpeting ,new roof, tree removal etc. It ended up going for
> > $355,000.
> >
> > The new neighbour is a handy man. He has already painted all the interior,
> > removed the old wood burning stove which apparently was a major fire hazard.
> > He is going to do the rook himself. He has spent the last month cutting trees
> > and clearing out the brush along 50 yards of stream that runs through it.
> > There was so much brush that he has been burning it back there for more than a
> > week. I have been helping. It is a lot of work.
> >
> > This is a prime case of a realtor overestimating the value by more than 30%
>
> Yes, but do you kno0w how lucky you are getting your new neighbor?
>
> I was sure your story was going to end with the property being sold
> to a developer who would scrape off the original house and build 16
> homes on the 8 acres. New development including houses over $1 million
> are being built on 1/6 of an acre or less in suburban Denver. It's a
> crime although we have no water to groom the bluegrass lawns so we're
> told it's "for the best."
>
> gloria p

One note: 1/6 of an acre = Urban, not suburban. I consider 1 acre the
absolute minimum to qualify as suburban.

Gloria P wrote:

>
> > The new neighbour is a handy man. He has already painted all the interior,
> > removed the old wood burning stove which apparently was a major fire hazard.
> > He is going to do the rook himself. He has spent the last month cutting trees
> > and clearing out the brush along 50 yards of stream that runs through it.
> > There was so much brush that he has been burning it back there for more than a
> > week. I have been helping. It is a lot of work.
> >
> > This is a prime case of a realtor overestimating the value by more than 30%
>
> Yes, but do you kno0w how lucky you are getting your new neighbor?

After 30 years of having a miserable neighbour I now have really nice people living
next door, and it turns out that I had met him years ago. We have a lot of mutual
friends.

>
>
> I was sure your story was going to end with the property being sold
> to a developer who would scrape off the original house and build 16
> homes on the 8 acres. New development including houses over $1 million
> are being built on 1/6 of an acre or less in suburban Denver. It's a
> crime although we have no water to groom the bluegrass lawns so we're
> told it's "for the best."

Not much chance of that for a long time. A few years ago this area was designated
greenbelt so there will not be any development for a long time. I realize that can
change, but from what I understand, it is a long and expensive process to get that
changed.

In article >, sf <.> says...
> On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:19:41 -0700, Blinky the Shark
> > wrote:
>
> >Serene wrote:
> >
> >> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> >>> On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
> >>> Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529. I didn't read
> >>> the fine print, but I assumed that was for regular; I stopped at the
> >>> Holiday near me and filled up for $3.379 minus 11 cents/gallon with my
> >>> Cub discount slips.
> >>
> >> They just changed the sign to $3.999 here, and over $4 for premium. This
> >> not-having-a-car thing just keeps feeling better and better to me.
> >
> >Aye. Saw $3.999 here (Los Angeles) today, as well.
> >
>
> Welcome to the world of regular gas selling for $4 a gallon. Add
> another 50¢ for premium.
>
>

And it gets worse. They're predicting that within four years we'll be
paying $7.00 per gallon.

A former co-worker and I sat down and determined what we called the pain
point for gasoline. We concured on $6 per gallon.

The pain point is economic collapse btw.

In article >,
says...
> In article >,
> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
> > On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
> > Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529. I didn't read
> > the fine print, but I assumed that was for regular; I stopped at the
> > Holiday near me and filled up for $3.379 minus 11 cents/gallon with my
> > Cub discount slips.
> >
> > Oh, the counter guy at the station had just returned from chasing a
> > drive-off -- he got his license number. More and more of those
> > happening.
>
> Petrol here is about to hit $2/litre, so call it $7.50/US gallon.
>
> Miche
>
>

Yes but you have fairly decent public transit systems. Unless you're in
a large city in the U.S. public transit is a joke.

What galls me is that here in Providence, RI we had a viable electric
streetcar system up until 1948, at which point General Motors, Goodyear
and Standard oil colluded to rip out all the infrastructure for the
electric system and they gave us buses.

If you ever want to get riled up, read "Internal Combustion: How
Corporations and Governments Addicted the World to Oil and Derailed the
Alternatives" by Edwin Black.

And if you want to get further upset as a U.S. citizen read David
Burnham's "A Law Unto Itself: Power, Politics and the IRS"

T wrote:

> In article >,
> says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article >,
> > *Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>
> > > On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
> > > Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529. *I didn't read
> > > the fine print, but I assumed that was for regular; I stopped at the
> > > Holiday near me and filled up for $3.379 minus 11 cents/gallon with my
> > > Cub discount slips.
>
> > > Oh, the counter guy at the station had just returned from chasing a
> > > drive-off -- he got his license number. *More and more of those
> > > happening.
>
> > Petrol here is about to hit $2/litre, so call it $7.50/US gallon.
>
> > Miche
>
> Yes but you have fairly decent public transit systems. Unless you're in
> a large city in the U.S. public transit is a joke.


Outside of a few large US cities, public transit is simply not a
viable option...motor vehicles are a better solution for most areas.


> What galls me is that here in Providence, RI we had a viable electric
> streetcar system up until 1948, at which point General Motors, Goodyear
> and Standard oil colluded to rip out all the infrastructure for the
> electric system and they gave us buses.


A smart move. Buses are more flexible, and plus which no dedicated
right - of - way or traction systems are needed for buses...buses can
be moved to routes where folks need them.


> If you ever want to get riled up, read "Internal Combustion: How
> Corporations and Governments Addicted the World to Oil and Derailed the
> Alternatives" by Edwin Black.


As people moved to automobiles, those streetcar systems and inter -
urban railways became increasingly archaic. Many were losing money in
the 20's, already...

Private vehicles became popular because they got people and goods
where they wanted to go, relatively quickly and relatively
conveniently...not to mention relatively cheaply.

Streetcars were a creature of the 19th century, private motor vehicles
and buses for public transport were the perfect 20th century
replacement...


--
Best
Greg

T wrote:

> In article >, sf <.> says...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Tue, 29 Apr 2008 22:19:41 -0700, Blinky the Shark
> > > wrote:
>
> > >Serene wrote:
>
> > >> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> > >>> On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
> > >>> Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529. *I didn't read
> > >>> the fine print, but I assumed that was for regular; I stopped at the
> > >>> Holiday near me and filled up for $3.379 minus 11 cents/gallon with my
> > >>> Cub discount slips.
>
> > >> They just changed the sign to $3.999 here, and over $4 for premium. This
> > >> not-having-a-car thing just keeps feeling better and better to me.
>
> > >Aye. *Saw $3.999 here (Los Angeles) today, as well.
>
> > Welcome to the world of regular gas selling for $4 a gallon. *Add
> > another 50¢ for premium.
>
> And it gets worse. They're predicting that within four years we'll be
> paying $7.00 per gallon.
>
> A former co-worker and I sat down and determined what we called the pain
> point for gasoline. We concured on $6 per gallon.
>
> The pain point is economic collapse btw.- Hide quoted text -


It's higher than that in most advanced industrial nations and they are
doing just fine for the most part, thriving even...


--
Best
Greg

flitterbit wrote:
> Miche wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Melba's Jammin' > wrote:
>>
>>> On my way home from the supermarket I saw a BP (Nicollet & ~126th in
>>> Burnsville - between the Pkwy and 13) with gas at 3.529. I didn't
>>> read the fine print, but I assumed that was for regular; I stopped
>>> at the Holiday near me and filled up for $3.379 minus 11
>>> cents/gallon with my Cub discount slips.
>>>
>>> Oh, the counter guy at the station had just returned from chasing a
>>> drive-off -- he got his license number. More and more of those
>>> happening.
>>
>> Petrol here is about to hit $2/litre, so call it $7.50/US gallon.
>>
>> Miche
>>
> Here, regular grade is $1.226/litre (at least it was on Sunday; I
> haven't checked in the last few days).

Car fuel here is aprox £5.40 a gallon

blake murphy wrote:
> ...and noticing that food prices are going up seemingly by the day are
> just imagining things, the poor dears.

Well it is happening here too blake! I do think there is a lot of
profiteering going on though.

ChattyCathy wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:05:36 -0400, flitterbit wrote:
>> Here, regular grade is $1.226/litre (at least it was on Sunday; I
>> haven't checked in the last few days).
>
> Regular here in Johannesburg, RSA area is currently US$1.15/litre (it
> fluctuates on sort of a month-to-month basis). Where are you located if
> you don't mind me asking?
>
>
Oh, sorry, I should have specified Toronto area in Ontario, Canada, and
that the price I quoted was Canadian dollars.

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:55:45 +0200, (Victor Sack)
wrote:

>Giusi > wrote:
>
>> "Victor Sack" > ha scritto
>> >
>
>> > And my yearly mileage is probably higher than yours and Rob's together
>> > by factor of at least two or three.
>>
>> Not mine. I have restricted my movements so severely I am growing moss on
>> my north side.
>
>I wish I could do so, too. As it were, I have to drive at least 160 km
>(100 miles) every working day.
>

isn't this unusual for a european? (americans do it all the time, not
having enough money to buy a house they like closer to work.)

your pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:
>
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 23:55:45 +0200, (Victor Sack)
> wrote:
>
> >Giusi > wrote:
> >
> >> "Victor Sack" > ha scritto
> >> >
> >
> >> > And my yearly mileage is probably higher than yours and Rob's together
> >> > by factor of at least two or three.
> >>
> >> Not mine. I have restricted my movements so severely I am growing moss on
> >> my north side.
> >
> >I wish I could do so, too. As it were, I have to drive at least 160 km
> >(100 miles) every working day.
> >
>
> isn't this unusual for a european? (americans do it all the time, not
> having enough money to buy a house they like closer to work.)
>
> your pal,
> blake

Americans do it all the time, having enough money to be able to buy a
house they like outside overcrowded urban areas.

"Pete C." wrote:

>
>
> Americans do it all the time, having enough money to be able to buy a
> house they like outside overcrowded urban areas.

Are they ready to reconquer the inner cities? Here in Canada we lead the same sort
of existence. Once fine neighbourhoods decayed and, other than the odd enclave,
people moved to the suburbs and commuted downtown to work. Now a lot of those
rundown old neighbourhoods have been yuppified and people have returned to the
city.

Dave Smith wrote:
>
> "Pete C." wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Americans do it all the time, having enough money to be able to buy a
> > house they like outside overcrowded urban areas.
>
> Are they ready to reconquer the inner cities? Here in Canada we lead the same sort
> of existence. Once fine neighbourhoods decayed and, other than the odd enclave,
> people moved to the suburbs and commuted downtown to work. Now a lot of those
> rundown old neighbourhoods have been yuppified and people have returned to the
> city.

Generally, no. We've moved our slums to the inner cities, the poor folks
who can't afford to live further out where there is room to breathe and
have a yard for kids to play in.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> The message >
> from T > contains these words:
>
> > And it gets worse. They're predicting that within four years we'll be
> > paying $7.00 per gallon.
>
> > A former co-worker and I sat down and determined what we called the pain
> > point for gasoline. We concured on $6 per gallon.
>
> > The pain point is economic collapse btw.
>
> Nope. We're already paying 10 US dollars per UK gallon locally ( £5
> sterling per UK gallon). No economic collapse though road hauliers are
> having a seriously bad time.
>
> Janet, Scotland.

Yes, but the UK is vastly smaller than the US and has much more public
transit than the US, so the comparison just isn't there.

Dave Smith wrote:
> "Pete C." wrote:
>
>>
>> Americans do it all the time, having enough money to be able to buy a
>> house they like outside overcrowded urban areas.
>
> Are they ready to reconquer the inner cities? Here in Canada we lead the same sort
> of existence. Once fine neighbourhoods decayed and, other than the odd enclave,
> people moved to the suburbs and commuted downtown to work. Now a lot of those
> rundown old neighbourhoods have been yuppified and people have returned to the
> city.
>
Thats happened/is happening big time in NYC and many sections of Philly.
In NYC it has spilled out into the outer boroughs and places where no
one wanted to live. It is actually getting hard to find run down areas
there. Currently there is a big battle going on in Harlem because the
people on 125th Street (essentially the Main St of Harlem) don't want
their area nuked and paved for $1,000,000+ yuppie apartments that
apparently have just been approved.

It is even happening in my little area. In the past lots of people moved
"out to the country". After years of extra hours/day of traveling etc I
know quite a few who have moved back to the point where it is hard to
find a place.

George wrote:
>
> Dave Smith wrote:
> > "Pete C." wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Americans do it all the time, having enough money to be able to buy a
> >> house they like outside overcrowded urban areas.
> >
> > Are they ready to reconquer the inner cities? Here in Canada we lead the same sort
> > of existence. Once fine neighbourhoods decayed and, other than the odd enclave,
> > people moved to the suburbs and commuted downtown to work. Now a lot of those
> > rundown old neighbourhoods have been yuppified and people have returned to the
> > city.
> >
> Thats happened/is happening big time in NYC and many sections of Philly.
> In NYC it has spilled out into the outer boroughs and places where no
> one wanted to live. It is actually getting hard to find run down areas
> there. Currently there is a big battle going on in Harlem because the
> people on 125th Street (essentially the Main St of Harlem) don't want
> their area nuked and paved for $1,000,000+ yuppie apartments that
> apparently have just been approved.
>
> It is even happening in my little area. In the past lots of people moved
> "out to the country". After years of extra hours/day of traveling etc I
> know quite a few who have moved back to the point where it is hard to
> find a place.

Most of those folks moving into the cities are DINKs. People with
children are still moving further out to get safe yards for their
children to play in and better schools.

blake murphy > wrote:

> (Victor Sack) wrote:
> >
> >I wish I could do so, too. As it were, I have to drive at least 160 km
> >(100 miles) every working day.
>
> isn't this unusual for a european?

It is not at all unusual, but a lot of people use public transport,
particularly trains. In my case, it is unfortunately rather less
convenient, though perfectly well doable.

ObFood: Yellow rice with potato and cumin, from Madhur Jaffrey's Spice
Kitchen.

Victor

Yellow rice with potato and cumin
Peelay Chaaval

The yellow in this rice comes from turmeric (which happens to be a
natural dye as well!) and the flavoring comes from the _tarka_ of cumin
and from the browned potato and onion.

Serves 4

1 1/2 cups basmati rice
3 tablespoons vegetable oil
1/2 teaspoon cumin seeds
1 tablespoon finely chopped onion
1 small boiling potato, boiled, cooled, peeled, and cut into 1/3-inch
dice
1/2 teaspoon turmeric
3/4 teaspoon salt

Wash the rice in several changes of water. Drain. Soak the rice in
water to cover generously and leave for 30 minutes. Drain thoroughly.

Heat the oil in a small, heavy pot over medium-high heat. When hot, add
the cumin seeds and let them sizzle for 10 seconds. Now put in the
onion. Stir and cook until it starts to brown. Add the potato. Stir
it until it too is lightly browned. Put in the rice, turmeric, and
salt. Turn heat to medium and stir the rice around gently for 2
minutes. Add 2 cups water and bring to a boil. Cover lightly, turn
heat to very low, and cook for 25 minutes.

Janet Baraclough wrote:
>
> The message >
> from "Pete C." > contains these words:
>
> > Janet Baraclough wrote:
> > >
> > > The message >
> > > from T > contains these words:
> > >
> > > > And it gets worse. They're predicting that within four years we'll be
> > > > paying $7.00 per gallon.
> > >
> > > > A former co-worker and I sat down and determined what we called the pain
> > > > point for gasoline. We concured on $6 per gallon.
> > >
> > > > The pain point is economic collapse btw.
> > >
> > > Nope. We're already paying 10 US dollars per UK gallon locally ( £5
> > > sterling per UK gallon). No economic collapse though road hauliers are
> > > having a seriously bad time.
> > >
> > > Janet, Scotland.
>
> > Yes, but the UK is vastly smaller than the US and has much more public
> > transit than the US, so the comparison just isn't there.
>
> http://www.cfit.gov.uk/docs/2001/sco...cot0122/06.htm
>
> Average annual car milage for UK domestic drivers, is 12,000 miles.
> What is it in America?

~20k I believe.

>
> Because the UK is much smaller, we have to import far more of our
> supplies and their distribution requires fuel.

What do you think those container ships bringing everything to the US
from China run on?

> Outside of the main urban
> areas, public transport tends not to run conveniently for commuting to
> work (and it uses very expensive fuel) Fuel costs here hit every person
> whether or not they drive a car.

Your main urban areas with useable public transit cover a much larger
percentage of your total area than they do in the US. In the US it's not
uncommon for there to be 500 miles or more between cities large enough
to have any appreciable public transit. Looking at the England map on my
wall (I manage some stuff there), it looks like ~500 miles from
Berwick-upon-Tweed at the top to Isle of Wight at the bottom.

>
> Janet