In article >,
says...
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> > Average car burns about a half gallon a hour at idle so figure it costs
> > about 4¢ a minute to idle. I do that if I'm going to be less than five
> > minutes in extreme hot or cold weather, not at 65 degrees. Otherwise, I use
> > the remote starter and only a minute or so before I reach the car.
>
> Cars only need to idle long enough to get the oil circulating. The most
> efficient way to do it is to start them engine, get the oil flowing and then
> drive slowly for the first mile or two before pushing the engine hard. You don't
> want to start the engine and then immediately push it to its limits, nor is it
> reasonable to start it up and warm it up until the heater starts to push the hot
> air.
>
>
>

Interesting, I remember the owners manual of my 1993 Ford Tempo said to
crank it until it starts and let it idle for 30 seconds and then drive
gently for a mile or two.

That was actually a good car. I only had to put a fuel pump into it,
otherwise it ran well. It was an iron 4 cylinder engine.

In article > ,
says...
>
> "blake murphy" > wrote in message
> >>>> Any responsible caring parent would tolerate a 120 minute commute if
> >>>> that's what it took to protect their children from the filth, crime,
> >>>> bad
> >>>> schools and lack of play space of the cities.
> >>>
> >>> i guess parents are willing to work for nothing (a long commute is the
> >>> equivalent of a longer work day). i am not.
> >>>
> >>> your pal,
> >>> blake
>
> That 120 minute commute is time away from the children so that seems to make
> the parents much less caring, IMO. My commute is plenty at 30 minutes.
>
> I'm 70 miles from Boston and there are plenty of people in this town that
> do the commute every day because the money is better than locally. In fact,
> I bought my house from a couple that commuted in opposite directions. The
> husband got a room in Boston to save time during the week, in bad weather
> etc. One day he decided not to come home. Yep, I bought the house when
> they divorced. Maybe that is better than subjecting their kids to the city
> life.

You must be in CT if I recall. The 50 mile journey Providnece to Boston
is an hour by train. I can deal with that.

My maximum is 1 hour 30 minutes total commute time. But most of my
commutes have been 10 or 15 minutes.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>
> Cars only need to idle long enough to get the oil circulating. The most
> efficient way to do it is to start them engine, get the oil flowing and
> then
> drive slowly for the first mile or two before pushing the engine hard. You
> don't
> want to start the engine and then immediately push it to its limits, nor
> is it
> reasonable to start it up and warm it up until the heater starts to push
> the hot
> air.
>
>
Yes, but its cold out there. When I park the car in the driveway, I put the
heated seat switch to "on" and the heater to the defrost position in case of
ice on the windshield. I start it 3 to 5 minutes before I leave and it is
nice and warm. After all, McDonald's had to sell a lot of hamburgers so I
could have leather seats so I want to keep them warm for my tush.

"T" > wrote in message
> You must be in CT if I recall. The 50 mile journey Providnece to Boston
> is an hour by train. I can deal with that.
>
> My maximum is 1 hour 30 minutes total commute time. But most of my
> commutes have been 10 or 15 minutes.
>

Yes, CT. Last passenger train in our town was over 35 years ago. There
used to be a bus for commuting to Electric Boat in Groton, but that was
stopped years ago to.

"George" wrote

> Somehow I think that anyone who rationalizes driving a 5 ton truck for
> personal transportation doesn't have the word waste in their vocabulary.

There are a few times when it makes sense. I have a friend named Marlon who
has 8 kids plus his 2 in-laws live with him (elderly and he is caretaker
along with his older kids). They have another car, a simple 2 seater gas
efficient mini for getting to and from work etc but it can't hold enough for
a grocery run for their size needs. Oh they use the small car for those
short sort of 'damnit, need a loaf of bread, a dozen eggs, and Mom's
pharmacy pickup' but a true grocery run for them? Nope. Won't *physically
fit* even with just one driver and the passenger side used for bags plus
it's tiny trunk.

George wrote:

> >> They do that around here when the weather is perfect. It is 65F here and
> >> I stopped at the store for a couple items on the way home. There were 2
> >> big piggy trucks parked in the lot with their engines running.
> >
> > Those truck most likely have diesel engine and they use very little fuel to
> > idle. Most long haul trucks have sleeper berths for the drivers to have a rest
> > and they usually run the heater or air conditioning while catching a few hours
> > sleep.
> >
> >
> >
> Sorry. I wasn't talking about trucks used in commerce. I was talking
> about the fluffed up 5 ton trucks many people think of as cars.

A lot of those are diesel too. The amount of fuel they burn to idle is a small
fraction of the amount used by a gasoline engine.

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

>
> That's very typical here in Arizona. When we first moved here I couldn't
> believe how many people drove trucks, including women, and most are clearly
> not being used for business purposes.

It is the same around here. I live in a rural area and I can understand farmers
needing a pickup, but not the people living on estate lots. Most of the cargo
boxes never carry anything that couldn't fit in the truck of my little Honda.

Gloria P wrote:

> There must be a majority of honest people in your area.
>
> Many of the cities in the Denver area have made it illegal to leave an
> unattended vehicle running because of the many car thefts that have
> occurred as a result. People without garages used to start their cars
> in cold weather and run back into the house for breakfast so that the
> heater would be working and the car would be cozy by the time it was
> time to leave. Car thieves caught on quickly.

Hence the advent of the remote controlled electronic locking systems that are
pretty well standard equipment these days, or the old system of using one key to
start the car and another to lock the door while you finish your coffee.

The only time I ever run my car to warm it up for a long time is when there has
been an ice storm and I need the heat to melt the ice from the inside. Under
normal circumstances, it is much more efficient to start the engine and let it
warm up just enough to get the oil flowing, and then drive it slowly for a few
minutes while it heats up. Most diesel trucks do not warm up when idling. The
really have to be driven to warm up.

T wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>> Gregory Morrow wrote:
>>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
>>>>>> We've hit $4+ here for regular. Luckily, I don't do alot of driving,
>>>>>> other then one day a week when I go up to my mom's.
>>>>>> kimberly
>>>>> If I look carefully, I can find regular for $3.29/gal. in downtown
>>>>> Phoenix,
>>>>> but I'm sure it won't last.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Wayne Boatwright
>>>> I just saw thishttp://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/080501/050108_usgas_price.html?.v=9
>>>>
>>>> In Venezuela 12¢
>>>
>>> If you can find it. The socialist gov't. there has "fiddled" with gas
>>> supplies, and their have been periodic riots over shortages, this
>>> scenario has also occured in Iran. So much for Cuban - style
>>> "socialism"...
>>>
>>>
>>>> " As of late March, U.S. gas prices averaged $3.45 a gallon. That compares
>>>> to over $8 a gallon across much of Europe, $12.03 in Aruba and $18.42 in
>>>> Sierra Leone."
>>>
>>> Wow, there is a functioning petrol station in Sierra Leone...!!!???
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>> The only time I miss Saudi Arabia is when gas prices go up. Lived there
>> from 1980 to 1986 and gasoline (leaded)sold for about 25 cents American
>> per gallon. Gallons, not litres.
>>
>> Naw, I really don't miss it at all. <VBG>
>>
>> George
>>
>
> Odd, as a man you had all the benefits of living in the Kingdom. But I
> know it's also a very xenophobic culture too so that's probaby what
> you're talking about.
>
No, I got along well with most of the Saudis, excepting the young
militants. Bear in mind that there were at least 2,000,000 foreigners
working there at the time, mostly third world labor. It was the attitude
of the Saudi's toward work that sent me home. When the plant I worked in
hit 85% local labor we went home. Six months later part of it blew up
and 22 people died. Sometimes you CAN see the handwriting on the wall.

Of course the company I worked for became all Saudi about the same time.
We were just starting to see the rage of the young Wahabi militants
where we lived on the Red Sea coast. After five years it was time to go.

Worked in Yemen for a while after that and it was a different story.
Women could drive, be in public without their male family members, etc.
Didn't stay long though, about five months. Turns out the company I was
working for was headed by a super team of jerks. Came home and went into
business for myself and only had one jerk to work for.

T wrote:

>
> Yes indeed, my father tells stories about how cheap gas was even in the
> 1950's.
>
> I remember when I got my license in 1981 gasoline could be had for 89
> cents a gallon.

That was after it started getting expensive. Gas was usually cheaper in the US than
here in Canada, and price fluctuations were small. I remember back in 1973 being so
upset about the price increasing at a particular gas station that I would not buy
gas there. It had gone from 36.9 cents per gallon to 38.9, a whopping 2 cents per
gallon increase. I thought that was obscene. These days it can jump 5 cents per
litre overnight.


>
>
> What really concerns me is the price of home heating oil. That is
> absolutely insane. I suspect we'll have a lot of corpsicles next year.

I pay as much for heating oil as I do for gasoline. I am switching to gas. Living
in the country, I would have had to pay for a gas line to be laid from the former
last house on the line. Last year there was a huge new house built across the road
from me and the owner of that place had to pay for the installation. For some
reason, the line was brought down past where it runs over to his house to the
middle of my front yard. The gas company told me I can hook up for free.

cshenk wrote:

> > Somehow I think that anyone who rationalizes driving a 5 ton truck for
> > personal transportation doesn't have the word waste in their vocabulary.
>
> There are a few times when it makes sense. I have a friend named Marlon who
> has 8 kids plus his 2 in-laws live with him (elderly and he is caretaker
> along with his older kids). They have another car, a simple 2 seater gas
> efficient mini for getting to and from work etc but it can't hold enough for
> a grocery run for their size needs.

I can't say that I would expect anyone with 8 kids to be particularly worried
about wasting our planet's resources. Having a truck just for groceries makes as
much sense as making such a hefty contribution to overpopulation.

Dave Smith wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>>>> They do that around here when the weather is perfect. It is 65F here and
>>>> I stopped at the store for a couple items on the way home. There were 2
>>>> big piggy trucks parked in the lot with their engines running.
>>> Those truck most likely have diesel engine and they use very little fuel to
>>> idle. Most long haul trucks have sleeper berths for the drivers to have a rest
>>> and they usually run the heater or air conditioning while catching a few hours
>>> sleep.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Sorry. I wasn't talking about trucks used in commerce. I was talking
>> about the fluffed up 5 ton trucks many people think of as cars.
>
> A lot of those are diesel too. The amount of fuel they burn to idle is a small
> fraction of the amount used by a gasoline engine.
>
>
The diesel versions seem to be pretty rare at least in my area. Waste
adds up even for diesels. If you have ever watched any of the parcel
service (UPS, FedX etc) drivers they have the engine killed before they
come to a delivery stop even though the stop may only be 2 minutes. My
buddy works for a logistics company that operates large over the road
tractor/trailers and they have absolute rules that drivers must turn off
the engines whenever the trucks are stopped except if they absolutely
need it even if they are in the sleeper etc.

In article >,
Dave Smith > wrote:

> George wrote:
>
> > >> They do that around here when the weather is perfect. It is 65F here and
> > >> I stopped at the store for a couple items on the way home. There were 2
> > >> big piggy trucks parked in the lot with their engines running.
> > >
> > > Those truck most likely have diesel engine and they use very little fuel
> > > to
> > > idle. Most long haul trucks have sleeper berths for the drivers to have a
> > > rest
> > > and they usually run the heater or air conditioning while catching a few
> > > hours
> > > sleep.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Sorry. I wasn't talking about trucks used in commerce. I was talking
> > about the fluffed up 5 ton trucks many people think of as cars.
>
> A lot of those are diesel too. The amount of fuel they burn to idle is a
> small
> fraction of the amount used by a gasoline engine.

http://www.epa.gov/smartway/idle-questions.htm

Combined, truck and locomotive idling consumes over 1 billion gallons of
diesel fuel annually. Long-duration truck idling consumes approximately
960 million gallons of diesel fuel annually and locomotive switcher
idling consumes 60 million gallons of diesel fuel annually.
Based on comprehensive EPA testing of idling heavy-duty diesel trucks,
the average truck consumes 0.8 gallons of fuel an hour.

[end of cite]

Watch a movie, 8 hours of snooze and that's 8 gallons, or US$32.00.
Makes Motel 6 look more reasonable all the time.

The web page mentions diesel train engines often. They have to be run
when the temperature drops to 40F, because they don't have antifreeze.
A switcher engine burns three to four gallons per hour. Cars and trucks
have used antifreeze for many decades. Why can't a train? Well
actually, the page also says that operators run their engines because
"out of the habit of always keeping a diesel engine operating".

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> I pay as much for heating oil as I do for gasoline. I am switching to gas.
> Living
> in the country, I would have had to pay for a gas line to be laid from the
> former
> last house on the line. Last year there was a huge new house built across
> the road
> from me and the owner of that place had to pay for the installation. For
> some
> reason, the line was brought down past where it runs over to his house to
> the
> middle of my front yard. The gas company told me I can hook up for free.
>
>

Good for you. When I moved here I inquired and it was estimated to be
$10,000 and that was 25 years ago. Propane for cooking though, the past 21
years.

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 15:07:23 -0400, Dave Smith wrote:

> He in the Niagara Peninsula regular gas is selling for $1.20 per litre
> and it fluctuates daily.

Well, the RSA gas price goes up ZAR0.55 per litre which brings it to the
equivalent of $1.25 Canadian per litre at midnight tonight (6th/7th May).
That's about US$4.50 per US gallon - sigh. You should have seen the queues
as the gas stations this afternoon... I think I need to buy a bicycle
again...

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

Is that chip on your shoulder edible?