which are the TRULY REQUIRED ingredients? (definition of "truly
required": if absent, a large majority of tasters in a double-blind
experiment, would NOT say they had sampled hot-and-sour soup)


which are the SUBSTITUTABLE ingredients? (definition: cooks put them
in because they were taught to do so, but we can identify a substitute
ingredient that is cheaper, and a less-than-random-guessing amount of
people would NOT ID the difference in a double-blind experiment?

On Apr 29, 7:04*pm, phlegmatico > wrote:
> which are the TRULY REQUIRED ingredients? (definition of "truly
> required": if absent, a large majority of tasters in a double-blind
> experiment, would NOT say they had sampled hot-and-sour soup)
[snip second question, which is the same as the first]

Addressing the Chinese dish, while there are many, many variations on
this dish, I would venture to say that Chinese black vinegar
(Chinkiang) fits your definition. That's the sour part. Fuchsia
Dunlop says you can use either black of white pepper for the hot part;
I've always used black. As far as all the other ingredients go, my
opinion is that none is essential but a mixture of textures is.
That's the point of the fungi, bamboo shoots and tofu for me.
Whichever specific bits you use there needs to be contrasting textures
in each spoonful.

And I lightly thicken/smooth it with a little cornstarch slurry but I
don't think that meets your definition either.

Incidentally, the website Victor referenced is better than most food
blogs. -aem

aem wrote on Wed, 30 Apr 2008 10:22:59 -0700 (PDT):

a> On Apr 29, 7:04 pm, phlegmatico >
a> wrote:
??>> which are the TRULY REQUIRED ingredients? (definition of
??>> "truly required": if absent, a large majority of tasters
??>> in a double-blind experiment, would NOT say they had
??>> sampled hot-and-sour soup)
a> [snip second question, which is the same as the first]

a> Addressing the Chinese dish, while there are many, many
a> variations on this dish, I would venture to say that Chinese
a> black vinegar (Chinkiang) fits your definition. That's the
a> sour part. Fuchsia Dunlop says you can use either black of
a> white pepper for the hot part; I've always used black. As
a> far as all the other ingredients go, my opinion is that none
a> is essential but a mixture of textures is. That's the point
a> of the fungi, bamboo shoots and tofu for me. Whichever
a> specific bits you use there needs to be contrasting textures
a> in each spoonful.

a> And I lightly thicken/smooth it with a little cornstarch
a> slurry but I don't think that meets your definition either.

Many of the hot & sour soups served in Chinese restaurants are
not hot enough by my standards. Fortunately, there is often a
bottle of chilli/garlic sauce on the table. OK, I'm a barbarian!
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

In article >,
(Victor Sack) wrote:

> phlegmatico > wrote:
>
> > which are the TRULY REQUIRED ingredients? (definition of "truly
> > required": if absent, a large majority of tasters in a double-blind
> > experiment, would NOT say they had sampled hot-and-sour soup)
>
> What kind of hot-and-sour soup? Suan la tang? Tom yum? Canh chua?
> Rasam? Some imitated version of the above in a pseudo-Asian restaurant?
>
> Tasters where?
>
> Knowing a cuisine and acquring a feeling of what does and does not
> belong in a certain dish is a lot more important than a mere listing of
> ingredients, many of which will inevitably vary for various reasons.
> With an unfamiliar cuisine - and South-East Asia and Indian subcontinent
> certainly qualify for most current rfc posters - getting such a feeling
> is extremely difficult, if not impossible, at least without total
> immersion for a considerable time. Cuisines of those countries are
> representative of whole cultures and civilisations that are at the very
> least unfamiliar, if not actually totally foreign and alien, to the
> "Western" approach. For example, the Chinese yin and yang principles
> may heavily influence balance of colours, flavours and textures in a
> particular dish, yet they may mean little or nothing to an average
> "Westerner".

This is so true, and often hard for us to remember, without actually
traveling to another country. I just got back from visiting my brother
for a couple of weeks. He lives here in California, although not very
close. He and his wife sold real estate in the United States for many
years. She specialized in Chinese customers, since she was born and
raised in China. She could look at a house, and determine whether it
would probably be attractive to Chinese people. Customers liked that,
since they wouldn't be shown a lot of houses that they probably wouldn't
like. She tried to explain it to me, but finally realized that not only
couldn't she explain it, but even if she could, she couldn't do it in
English.

My brother is a very good cook. His Chinese relatives think that the
food he cooks is very bad. They feel sorry for his wife, having to eat
that bad food.

> There is a good discussion of authenticity on the basic level, with an
> emphasis on suan la tang, at
> <http://www.tigersandstrawberries.com...oes-authentic-
> mean-anyway/>.

This supports what I've read elsewhere, that Hot and Sour soup isn't
even made the same way each time by the same cook, much less different
cooks. It is about the worst example (besides fried rice) of a
standardized Chinese recipe.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

This is not what I would call authentic but I have been
making this for years. I have to be careful for the taste
is addictive for me and I might just have 2 qts of it
during one day.

Once you assemble the ingreadients it only takes 5 minutes to make.


============
Sour & Hot Soup
by Gary Hayman

2 qts. Water
` Chicken Bouillon (*1)
1/2 cup Ham, cooked, shredded (*2)
1 Onion, large, sliced very very thin
1 Carrot, shredded
1/2 cup Dried Chinese Mushrooms
1 can Bamboo shoots, shredded or sliced
1/2 tsp. Pepper
-----
4 tbs. Vinegar
6 tbs. Soy Sauce (Japanese regular or lite)
3 tbs. Sherry
1 tsp. Ginger, minced
2 tsp. Thai Hot Sauce (or Tabasco, adjust for
taste)
-----
8 tsp. Cornstarch
1/2 cup Water
-----
3 or 4 tbs. Eggs, beaten (or egg substitute)
1/2 bunch Spring Onions, diced
6 drops Sesame Oil

Have all ingredients prepared and ready before starting,
for the construction of this is rather quick.

Boil water and add chicken bouillon. (1* - I use 1 tbs. +
of paste concentrate chicken bouillon, but you can use the
powdered or cube type. Just make sure that the liquid
tastes like chicken stock.)

When boiling add ham, onions, carrots, mushrooms, bamboo
and pepper. Boil for 2 minutes. While it is heating to
boil, mix vinegar, soy sauce, ginger, and hot sauce
together. Add this at the 2 minute mark and continue to
boil for 1 minute more. Mix cornstarch and water together
and add to the pot at this time, stirring while mixture
thickens. Slowly pour in beaten eggs in a fine thread,
stirring gently. Immediately remove from heat.

Let cool a bit then add spring onions and sesame oil if
desired. Serves 8 - 12 people. Improves with age.

(*2) You can substitute shredded cooked turkey, chicken,
pork, etc.

If you want, you can add, for more body, 1/2 to 1 cup
cooked rice or cooked thin rice noodles. You can greatly
alter the recipe for different effects and tastes.


==================

Here are some comments that I sent to a friend about the
soup not too long ago.

Anyway a couple or more hints for you.

Makes sure your pot is big enough -- you are using 2 qts
of liquid plus ingredients. You are going to stir and it
expands as it boils; so use one that has room.

Really have all your ingredients prepared ready-to-go. I
divided the recipe into blocks. You can use a bowl for
each block and add your ingredients to the bowls to be
quickly used.

I go lightly on the hot sauce -- but you can adjust. You
want your tongue to tingle for a minute after you stop --
but not to burn it off. I'm not a Tabasco fan so I use
little but ramp-up the black pepper instead. Since I am
sure you will be making this often, start easy and adjust.

You may use a variety of vinegars. Today I used a
combination of apple cider vinegar and rice wine vinegar.
At times I use regular white vinegar. Experiment, but don't
use too much. You would like to capture the sour taste on
the rear sides of your tongue but that it not be
overwhelming. It needs to be there for the soup to be 'sour
and hot.'

For the cornstarch/water to work it has to be well mixed
before you put it in (you may have to stir immediately
before if you have placed it in a bowl waiting to be
added); the soup must be boiling so that the thickening
takes place; that you add enough, but not too much, of the
cornstarch/water so that the soup thickens slightly in that
Chinese way. Don't turn it into gravy, just a thick soup.
Have enough extra cornstarch/water on hand as a back-up in case you
find it is not thick enough after a minute
of boiling.

If you are not familiar with the Sesame Oil it is used
here as a slight flavoring. Don't use too much. You add it
after as it doesn't really take to cooking. Start with your
6 drops or so and adjust in later endeavors.

I mainly use ham, julienned, but I often use beef and
chicken cut in strips. Leftover work well too.

Sometimes I add other vegetables such sprouts, peas,
Edamame, as transparent Yam noodles.

As I said, although great a first, it is even grater when
it cools down or you eat it later or the next day -- if it
lasts that long.

Gary Hayman, Greenbelt, MD
http://snipurl.com/garyswebpages

On Apr 29, 7:04 pm, phlegmatico > wrote:
> which are the TRULY REQUIRED ingredients? (definition of "truly
> required": if absent, a large majority of tasters in a double-blind
> experiment, would NOT say they had sampled hot-and-sour soup)
>
> which are the SUBSTITUTABLE ingredients? (definition: cooks put them
> in because they were taught to do so, but we can identify a substitute
> ingredient that is cheaper, and a less-than-random-guessing amount of
> people would NOT ID the difference in a double-blind experiment?

Here's a minimalist hot and sour soup recipe that I use all the time.

Easy Hot and Sour Soup

4 cups of water
4 teaspoons chicken bullion powder
4 tablespoons Soy Sauce
1/2 tablespoon chili garlic sauce
1/4 teaspoon ground white pepper
2 tablespoons Cornstarch, 2 tablespoons arrowroot starch, 4
tablespoons cold water
1/3 cup bamboo shoots, julienned
1/3 cup (1/4 12-oz package) firm Tofu, cut into 1/4 inch dice
1 egg, beaten with 1 Tbs cold water
3 green onion stalks, diced, with tops
1/4 cup distilled white vinegar
1 Teaspoon Toasted Sesame Oil

In a 3-qt saucepan, add 4-cups of water, chicken bullion powder, soy
sauce chili garlic sauce and white pepper. Heat to a simmer.

Simmer 5-minutes, stir well.

Mix cornstarch, arrowroot and 4-tablespoons of cold water, together,
in a cup. Mix well to remove all lumps.

Add cornstarch/arrowroot mixture to simmering soup. Mix well and
simmer about 1-minute

Stir in bamboo shoots.

Beat egg in a cup with 1-tablespoon of water. Pour in a fine stream
into soup while stirring soup slowly.

Remove from heat.

Stir in tofu, green onions, vinegar and sesame oil.

Stir a few times and serve.

> This supports what I've read elsewhere, that Hot and Sour soup isn't
> even made the same way each time by the same cook, much less different
> cooks.


A chinese in Singapore guy said the same thing to me. He happened to
be referring to Tex-Mex chili. So maybe the inhabitants of the Middle
Kingdom (and their diaspora) really are, on the average - pretty
average human beings. Not very different than me.

I understand that some of the replyers to my question truly are
superior human material. I stand ready to be lectured by them about
how I as a westerner, cannot hope to judge h&s soup as just another
piece of soup. I must remember the ying and the yang, the philosophy,
the drama and the glory of it.

After all, these immigrant guys I see cooking in these hole-in-the-
wall chinese takeouts - they're not uneducated poor people who decided
to look for a better life overseas - same like your & my ancestors?
They COULD EASILY find work as master electricians or rocket
scientists, but the cultural imperative of the East has motivated them
to work in these minimum wage jobs in crappy neighborhoods.

phlegmatico wrote on Wed, 30 Apr 2008 14:52:06 -0700 (PDT):

??>> This supports what I've read elsewhere, that Hot and Sour
??>> soup isn't even made the same way each time by the same
??>> cook, much less different cooks.

p> A chinese in Singapore guy said the same thing to me. He
p> happened to be referring to Tex-Mex chili. So maybe the
p> inhabitants of the Middle Kingdom (and their diaspora)
p> really are, on the average - pretty average human beings.
p> Not very different than me.

p> I understand that some of the replyers to my question truly
p> are superior human material. I stand ready to be lectured
p> by them about how I as a westerner, cannot hope to judge h&s
p> soup as just another piece of soup. I must remember the
p> ying and the yang, the philosophy, the drama and the glory
p> of it.

I wonder what sort of Chinese people you have encountered. A
real Chinese in the US would probably not let ethnic purity
supersede money. My favorite Chinese supermarket sells Japanese
and Filipino condiments and foods. Next door to it is "Bob's 88
Shabu-Shabu". The owners are from Taiwan and, even if they give
the history of the dish, they don't call it Mongolian Hot Pot!
--

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not

On Wed, 30 Apr 2008 22:01:21 GMT, "James Silverton"
> wrote:

>I wonder what sort of Chinese people you have encountered. A
>real Chinese in the US would probably not let ethnic purity
>supersede money. My favorite Chinese supermarket sells Japanese
>and Filipino condiments and foods. Next door to it is "Bob's 88
>Shabu-Shabu". The owners are from Taiwan and, even if they give
>the history of the dish, they don't call it Mongolian Hot Pot!

what's the name of the market, james?

your pal,
blake

> I wonder what sort of Chinese people you have encountered.

Two kinds. One, the chinatown folk of NYC where I grew up. Two,
Singapore lower-middle-class folk where I lived for quite a while.









>A
> real Chinese in the US would probably not let ethnic purity
> supersede money.


Funny, that's what that Singaporean-Chinese guy told me about
Americans. By the way the h&s soup as we know it the USA, is barely
known in Singapore. THEIR tastes have become Malayanized and Thai-
ized.


It's also really difficult to find yellow chinese mustard in
Singapore. A true sinus cleanout job, that stuff is.

Let me clarify one thing. THere's MORE than enough chinese here in
the States, and they been here long enough, that I don't really CARE
what people in PRC eat. In any case, they eat stuff that I would have
heartburn feeding to a cat. The chinese-american restaurant cuisine
is RATHER standardized, and it's authentic chinese food to me.