Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:

"
Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008


Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
fats, concludes a new study.

People living in France have a much lower incidence of coronary heart
disease than those in Britain, despite their similar intake of
saturated fats - a phenomenon known as the "French paradox".



Red wine contins resveratrol which can blunt the toxic effects of a
high-fat diet Many have speculated that answer to the paradox lies in
their love of a glass or two of wine with a meal and have focused on a
chemical found in red wine called resveratrol, also a natural
constituent of grapes, pomegranates and other foods.

Earlier studies have shown it can blunt the toxic effects of a diet
very high in fat, which causes liver damage, but this is the first
study to directly look at ageing.

Today, in the journal PLoS ONE, researchers report that even low doses
of resveratrol in the diet of middle-aged mice has a widespread
influence on the genetic levers of ageing, and may confer special
protection on the heart.

Specifically, the researchers found that low doses of resveratrol
mimic the helpful effects of what is known as caloric restriction,
diets with the full range of nutrients but up to 30 per cent fewer
calories than a typical diet, which extend lifespan and slow the
progression of age related diseases such as obesity, diabetes and
cancer.

"This brings down the dose of resveratrol toward the consumption
reality mode," says senior author Prof Richard Weindruch of the
University of Wisconsin-Madison.

But, importantly, resveratrol is just one of many "healthy chemicals",
called polyphenols in wine. Now, he says, it is possible to see how a
glass or two can have a health effect.

"Resveratrol mimics a significant fraction of the profile of caloric
restriction at the gene expression level," according to Prof Tomas
Prolla, coauthor

In the new study - which compared the gene use of animals on a
restricted diet with those fed small doses of resveratrol - the
similarities were remarkable, explains lead author Dr Jamie Barger of
Madison-based LifeGen Technologies.

In the heart, for example, there are at least 1,029 genes whose
functions change with age, and the organ's function is known to
diminish with age.

In animals on a restricted diet, 90 per cent of those heart genes
experienced altered gene expression profiles while low doses of
resveratrol thwarted age-related change in 92 per cent. The new
findings were associated with prevention of the decline in heart
function associated with ageing.

In short, a glass of wine or food or supplements that contain even
small doses of resveratrol are likely to represent "a robust
intervention in the retardation of cardiac ageing," the authors note.

The new resveratrol study is also important because it confirms
studies that show eating fewer calories, which has been shown in a
wide range of species to extend lifespan, and resveratrol may govern
the same master genetic pathways related to ageing.
"

On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
> Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>
> "
> Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>
> Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
> clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
> fats, concludes a new study.

The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.

Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
factors or combinations.

> Today, in the journal PLoS ONE, researchers report that even low doses
> of resveratrol in the diet of middle-aged mice has a widespread
> influence on the genetic levers of ageing, and may confer special
> protection on the heart.

Douglas Adams was right to suggest that white mice actually run the
Earth. We ply them with free wine and give them the advantage of all
this advanced medical research on them! Lucky mice.

> In short, a glass of wine or food or supplements that contain even
> small doses of resveratrol are likely to represent "a robust
> intervention in the retardation of cardiac ageing," the authors note.

In mice! And only maybe. (I.e. might it be the greater attention the
mice get that increases their lifespan? Are their handlers happier and
more friendly (all that free wine going spare!)?

> The new resveratrol study is also important because it confirms
> studies that show eating fewer calories, which has been shown in a
> wide range of species to extend lifespan, and resveratrol may govern
> the same master genetic pathways related to ageing.

Guess of the week.

Prove it.

"Paul Grieg" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
| On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
| > Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
| > "
| > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
| > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
| > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
| >
| > Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
| > clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
| > fats, concludes a new study.
|
| The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
| studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.

There have been rumours ref the alleged beneficial effects of red wine on the
health of the French for donkeys' years now, nothing new there. Mostly spread by
French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time of day, I
reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to contest the
"loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for example eat
loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my
experience.

| Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
| stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
| they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
| factors or combinations.

Stress-free... not so much these days. The gap's narrowing fast, but the French
concept of quality of life still includes considerable emphasis on taking time
to eat, to talk, to enjoy periods of leisure. Plus there is more emphasis on
physical fitness at school.

Philosophy? Not sure about that these days, but yes they take some issues very
seriously, and from a very early age too. I've seen 12 years olds waving banners
at the school gates during a strike against proposed cuts in recent weeks.

Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but we've
had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...

Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
Burgundy intake ;-)

pga

On Jun 5, 2:21*pm, "PG" > wrote:
>
>
> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
> Burgundy intake ;-)
>
Even if you are sceptical of this because of the mouse angle (I must
say that I've been feeling much more mouse-like than before reading
the article), there are other health reasons for choking down more of
that dreadful red wine - arthritis for one. This is from the same
edition of the Telegraph (OK they've got some puritan in at the end
for 'balance' but you get the drift):

"
Five alcoholic drinks a week 'halves risk of arthritis'
By Kate Devlin
Last Updated: 1:36PM BST 05/06/2008
Drinking five or more alcoholic drinks a week can halve the risk of
developing rheumatoid arthritis, a new study shows.

Teetotallers are the most likely to develop the crippling joint
disease, which affects more than 400,000 people in Britain, scientists
found.

The risk of the disease decreases the more people drink, according to
the findings, published in the journal Annals of the Rheumatic
Diseases.

Researchers who led the study believe alcohol could protect against
the condition by reducing inflammation within the body, in a similar
way to how red wine helps protect the heart.

Scientists from the Karolinska Institute, in Stockholm, Sweden, looked
at the results of two major studies involving more than 2,750 people
in Scandinavia, which analysed environmental and genetic risk factors
for rheumatoid arthritis.

They found the more alcohol people regularly drank, the less likely
they were to develop the disease.

Those who drank more than 5 alcoholic drinks every week cut their
chances of developing the condition by between 40 and 50 per cent.

The effect was the same for both men and women.

Teetotallers had a slightly raised chance of developing the disease,
while low drinkers, those whose intake was between one and five drinks
a week, had an average risk.

Previous research has suggested that alcohol can protect against the
severity of rheumatoid arthritis, which can leave patients crippled
and in constant pain.

The latest study found smoking increased the risk in those with a
genetic susceptibility to the disease.

Henrik Kallberg, who led the research, writes that the findings point
to the possibility that alcohol "may protect against" rheumatoid
arthritis.

Ailsa Bosworth, chief executive of the National Rheumatoid Arthritis
Society, said: "This study is important because it indicates one of
the environmental factors that can cause rheumatoid arthritis in
people who are genetically susceptible to the condition.

"The more we can learn about what causes rheumatoid arthritis and what
we can do to lessen our chances of developing it, the better."

However, Professor Robert Moots, from the Arthritis Research Campaign,
warned against drawing too many conclusions from the findings.

He said: "There is no doubt that drinking too much is very bad for our
health in many ways and these risks by far outweigh any potential
benefit for reducing the risk of rheumatoid arthritis, which this
study points to, without being conclusive.

"We must also remember that drinking alcohol in excess can be
especially dangerous in patients taking some anti-rheumatoid drugs
that may cause liver damage."

However, he added: "Drinking a moderate amount of alcohol may have a
protective effect against rheumatoid arthritis, in ways that we don't
yet understand - possibly comparable to effects of drinking moderate
amounts of red wine on cardiovascular disease."

Unlike osteoarthritis which tends to affect older people, rheumatoid
arthritis can strike at any age.

The disease is sparked by the immune system, which starts attacking
the joints causing inflammation and swelling.

An estimated 4,000 patients in Britain are seriously affected by the
disease, for which there is no known cure.
"

>>>Mostly spread by French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit
rouge' whatever the time of day,

Around me, most French people wouldn't think of having red till
lunchtime. Early morning it's almost always white which they carry on
with till it's time for the apero when they switch to rosé or a pastis.

Steve
PS Acc a local winegrower, it's the white wine that gives them (him
included) kidney stones, something to do with excess of sulphur;

On Jun 5, 1:21 pm, "PG" > wrote:
> "Paul Grieg" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
> | On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
> | > Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
> | > "
> | > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> | > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> | > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
> | >
> | > Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
> | > clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
> | > fats, concludes a new study.
> |
> | The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
> | studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.
>
> There have been rumours ref the alleged beneficial effects of red wine on the
> health of the French for donkeys' years now, nothing new there. Mostly spread by
> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time of day, I
> reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to contest the
> "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for example eat
> loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my
> experience.

maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.

Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.

> | Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
> | stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
> | they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
> | factors or combinations.
>
> Stress-free... not so much these days. The gap's narrowing fast, but the French
> concept of quality of life still includes considerable emphasis on taking time
> to eat, to talk, to enjoy periods of leisure. Plus there is more emphasis on
> physical fitness at school.
>
> Philosophy? Not sure about that these days, but yes they take some issues very
> seriously, and from a very early age too. I've seen 12 years olds waving banners
> at the school gates during a strike against proposed cuts in recent weeks.
>
> Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but we've
> had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...
>
> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
> Burgundy intake ;-)

Careful! Don't assume the glass of wine recommended in the report
referred to mice, and scale up :-)

Kendrick suggests that social dislocation may be a big factor in
causing stress, hence the high rates amongst British Asians, so I'm
not sure if moving to France is a good idea.

"Steve Y" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
>>
>>Mostly spread by French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit
>>rouge' whatever the time of day,
>
>Around me, most French people wouldn't think of having red till
>lunchtime. Early morning it's almost always white which they carry on
>with till it's time for the apero when they switch to rosé or a pastis.

>PS Acc a local winegrower, it's the white wine that gives them (him
>included) kidney stones, something to do with excess of sulphur;

Yes white is certainly by far the main tipple early on, or maybe a beer, pretty
much wherever you are in the Hexagon. Very rarely seen people have a rosé
(unless it's the fortified sweet version) as an apéro though, whereabouts is
that in France?

pga

NW of Lyon in the Beaujolais. Rosé is quite common here, more so than
beer at this time of year.

S

PG wrote:

>
> Yes white is certainly by far the main tipple early on, or maybe a beer, pretty
> much wherever you are in the Hexagon. Very rarely seen people have a rosé
> (unless it's the fortified sweet version) as an apéro though, whereabouts is
> that in France?
>
> pga
>
>
>

On Jun 5, 3:03*pm, Paul Grieg > wrote:
>
>
> Careful! Don't assume the glass of wine recommended in the report
> referred to mice, and scale up :-)
>
Spoilsport....!

"Steve Y" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...

>NW of Lyon in the Beaujolais. Rosé is quite common here, more so than
>beer at this time of year.

Juliénas, Morgon, Brouilly, some of my favourites from your neck of the woods
....

"Paul Grieg" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Jun 5, 1:21 pm, "PG" > wrote:
> "Paul Grieg" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
> | On Jun 5, 9:02 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
>> | > Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>> | > "
>> | > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
>> | > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
>> | > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>> | >
>> | > Red wine does indeed explain why the French get away with a relatively
>> | > clean bill of heart health despite eating a diet loaded with saturated
>> | > fats, concludes a new study.
>> |
>> | The study looked at middle aged mice! You would have to do extended
>> | studies on the French before being able to come to this conclusion.
>>
>> There have been rumours ref the alleged beneficial effects of red wine on the
>> health of the French for donkeys' years now, nothing new there. Mostly spread
>> by
>> French males who particularly enjoy 'un petit rouge' whatever the time of
>> day, I
>> reckon! But there are substantial differences in diet - I have to contest the
>> "loaded with saturated fats" French diet assertion - most kids for example
>> eat
>> loads of vegetables, salads and fruit in comparison to the Brits, in my
>> experience.
>
> maybe your right about vegetables (any figures?) But you are wrong
> about the French diet not being loaded with saturated fats.

Sorry only anecdotal, based on a couple of decades living here. And on the look
on British visitors' kids' faces when they see that they're expected to eat food
for a change ;-)

> Kendrick's 14 European country study (reported in The Great
> Cholesterol Con) has the French diet with the highest percentage of
> saturated fats (15%) but lowest heart disease death rate (< 100 per
> 100 000) Ukraine has figures of 7.5% and > 700 per 100 000.

I find that odd - my experience is of a wholesome, varied diet, and certainly no
more fatty meat content than in the UK. One factor ref heart disease - the
health system here - at least until recently - placed a lot of emphasis on
prevention. My GP regularly sends me off for various checks, including
cholesterol, despite a complete lack of symptoms. Any signs of an increase in my
cholesterol count and I would soon know about it ...

>> | Maybe red wine is only good for mice. Maybe its variety of food and
>> | stress free lifestyle that is good for the French? Or the fact that
>> | they take philosophy seriously? Good weather? Or any of several other
>> | factors or combinations.
>>
>> Stress-free... not so much these days. The gap's narrowing fast, but the
>> French
>> concept of quality of life still includes considerable emphasis on taking
>> time
>> to eat, to talk, to enjoy periods of leisure. Plus there is more emphasis on
>> physical fitness at school.
>>
>> Philosophy? Not sure about that these days, but yes they take some issues
>> very
>> seriously, and from a very early age too. I've seen 12 years olds waving
>> banners
>> at the school gates during a strike against proposed cuts in recent weeks.
>>
>> Good weather... south of a line between La Rochelle and Lyon perhaps, but
>> we've
>> had a pretty awful May in the south of France this year ...
>>
>> Still, in the light of this new research, I shall definitely be boosting my
>> Burgundy intake ;-)
>
> Careful! Don't assume the glass of wine recommended in the report
> referred to mice, and scale up :-)

That would be unthinkable

> Kendrick suggests that social dislocation may be a big factor in
> causing stress, hence the high rates amongst British Asians, so I'm
> not sure if moving to France is a good idea.

Certainly not the way so many do it - underestimating costs and potential
problems, overestimating their ability to make a living, integrate into the
local community, etc ... otherwise intelligent, astute people seem to throw
caution to the winds and do the craziest things sometimes.

pga

Diet. I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
markets (that thankfully still exist). There are plenty of companies
offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
time to go shopping

Healthy Stuff. Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
regulalrly warns me against.

Cakes etc. A French meal without patisserie being offered ?? Most
cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your
coffee. The French love their sweet stuff.


The two things that make me realise that the French aren't all fixated
on the healthy good stuff are UHT Milk (bought by the 6 pack every 2
weeks) and Mousseline (Mashed potato lookalike that arrives in powered
form from a Rhone Poulenc factory near Marseilles)

Steve

"Steve Y" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...

> Diet. I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
> exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
> once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
> markets (that thankfully still exist). There are plenty of companies
> offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
> time to go shopping

Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the fare
offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to
live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery services,
perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries
distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a year
or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in
convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.

Times are a'changing though, the traditional lifestyle is certainly under
threat.

> Healthy Stuff. Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
> colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
> grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
> regulalrly warns me against.

France, a colony? Sure you don't live in the Dordogne? Ok, but what about
fried breakfasts, fish 'n chips, all that sort of thing. Or has the UK gone
cordon bleu since I jumped ship?

> Cakes etc. A French meal without patisserie being offered ?? Most
> cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your
> coffee. The French love their sweet stuff.

A wafer thin slice of dark chocolate as often as not. And as for ptisserie,
usually a healthy, fruit-filled French-style 'dry' pastry. Often with the
alternative of the likes of a fruit salad. And I've rarely come across a French
family that doesn't put a bowl of fruit on the table as a desert option.

> The two things that make me realise that the French aren't all fixated
> on the healthy good stuff are UHT Milk (bought by the 6 pack every 2
> weeks) and Mousseline (Mashed potato lookalike that arrives in powered
> form from a Rhone Poulenc factory near Marseilles)

Not sure that heat-treated milk is bad for you - but in twenty years here I
can't recall ever being offered any. They don't drink milk, just stick some
(boiled usually) in a coffee sometimes. And as for mousseline, the French
families I've eaten with (I meet a Brit once in a blue moon) would never live
down the shame of serving that stuff.

Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane
packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up with
the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.

pga

Think we are seeing two different faces of same place.

We are 50Kms from Lyon, Agrigel etc deliver twice a week, butchers
waggon comes once a week and probably has 1/3 the customers. People
travel 15 Kms to local Ed or 20Kms to Aldi (sooned to be joined by a
Lidl). Population is a mix, some will eat what they grow/kill but a
lot have to get by on what they can afford. Nearest "grande surface" is
40Kms and when people go there , they stock up. Biggest difference I
guess to the UK is that not very meal gets served with chips

If you have managed to avoid the UHT you've been lucky !

Times are changing as you say and we are seeing the equivalent of the
Farmer's Market appear (even better quality produce than the local
markets) and the inceasing Bio (Organic) offering in the supermarkets

Steve

PS reference to colonials in earlier message was for benefit of any N
Americans reading who don't know what crisps are.

PG wrote:
> "Steve Y" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
>
>> Diet. I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
>> exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
>> once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
>> markets (that thankfully still exist). There are plenty of companies
>> offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
>> time to go shopping
>
> Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the fare
> offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to
> live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery services,
> perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries
> distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a year
> or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in
> convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.
>
> Times are a'changing though, the traditional lifestyle is certainly under
> threat.
>
>> Healthy Stuff. Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
>> colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
>> grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
>> regulalrly warns me against.
>
> France, a colony? Sure you don't live in the Dordogne? Ok, but what about
> fried breakfasts, fish 'n chips, all that sort of thing. Or has the UK gone
> cordon bleu since I jumped ship?
>
>> Cakes etc. A French meal without patisserie being offered ?? Most
>> cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your
>> coffee. The French love their sweet stuff.
>
> A wafer thin slice of dark chocolate as often as not. And as for ptisserie,
> usually a healthy, fruit-filled French-style 'dry' pastry. Often with the
> alternative of the likes of a fruit salad. And I've rarely come across a French
> family that doesn't put a bowl of fruit on the table as a desert option.
>
>> The two things that make me realise that the French aren't all fixated
>> on the healthy good stuff are UHT Milk (bought by the 6 pack every 2
>> weeks) and Mousseline (Mashed potato lookalike that arrives in powered
>> form from a Rhone Poulenc factory near Marseilles)
>
> Not sure that heat-treated milk is bad for you - but in twenty years here I
> can't recall ever being offered any. They don't drink milk, just stick some
> (boiled usually) in a coffee sometimes. And as for mousseline, the French
> families I've eaten with (I meet a Brit once in a blue moon) would never live
> down the shame of serving that stuff.
>
> Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane
> packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up with
> the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.
>
> pga
>
>

"Peter Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>
> "
> Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>
Of course, there is always a jeremiah! See the last para of:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7432957.stm

The UK govt published its recommendations for healthy alcohol consumption a
couple of weeks ago and I calculated that 2 bottles of claret per week just
about matched their figures{;-)

On a related topic: a friend, who works in a wine shop, e-mailed me
yesterday to inform me that they will soon have some 2005 Chateau Cheval
Blanc for sale at Can$1150 (~GBP575) per BOTTLE!

Graham

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:59:41 +0200, Steve Y >
wrote:
>
>Steve
>
WB... long time no see! Schaller is in France as we speak. Did she
give you a heads up?

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Jun 6, 4:35*am, "graham" > wrote:
> "Peter Brooks" > wrote in message
>
> ...> Here's an interesting article from the Telegraph:
>
> > "
> > Red wine stops effects of high-fat diet
> > By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
> > Last Updated: 1:01am BST 04/06/2008
>
> Of course, there is always a jeremiah! See the last para of:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7432957.stm
>
> The UK govt published its recommendations for healthy alcohol consumption a
> couple of weeks ago and I calculated that 2 bottles of claret per week just
> about matched their figures{;-)
>
> On a related topic: a friend, who works in a wine shop, e-mailed me
> yesterday to inform me that they will soon have some 2005 Chateau Cheval
> Blanc for sale at Can$1150 (~GBP575) per BOTTLE!
>
> Graham

On Jun 6, 4:35*am, "graham" > wrote:
>
>
> The UK govt published its recommendations for healthy alcohol consumption a
> couple of weeks ago and I calculated that 2 bottles of claret per week just
> about matched their figures{;-)
>
The only solution is to move to a Jovian week, that should give you
closer to five bottles per terrestrial week.

sf wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:59:41 +0200, Steve Y >
> wrote:
>>
>> Steve
>>
> WB... long time no see! Schaller is in France as we speak. Did she
give you a heads up?

I have no idea who you think this it but it's not the Steve who lives in
Thailand.

On Jun 6, 4:35*am, "graham" > wrote:
>
>
> Of course, there is always a jeremiah! See the last para of:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7432957.stm
>
That seems encouraging, I'd have thought, she says you need to drink
'literally gallons' of wine to get the life-enhancing effect. She
doesn't give a time period for this, but, if we assume a week, that'd
be at least 9 litres or a case a week, a reasonable target to aim to
build up to even if you're not that keen on the stuff..

On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG" > wrote:
> "Steve Y" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
>
> > Diet. I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
> > exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
> > once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
> > markets (that thankfully still exist). There are plenty of companies
> > offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
> > time to go shopping
>
> Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the fare
> offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to
> live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery services,
> perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries
> distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a year
> or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in
> convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.

Is this a good thing? The great philosophers were seldom gourmets.
Making
too much fuss about food distracts from more important matters, and
often means devoting too much time and money to a basically trivial
pursuit.

Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
trivial, need.

Then again, I would get Sainsbury's 'Taste the Difference' bread + M&S
soft cheese spread rather than Lidl's basic white bread and cheese
slices. But I wouldn't cycle fifteen miles to the local county town
for goat cheese, or spend hours baking my own bread. There is always a
middle way!

> > Healthy Stuff. Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
> > colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
> > grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
> > regulalrly warns me against.

Ask why he's issuing these warnings when France has the lowest heart
attack rate in Europe and all the locals eat that kind of thing.

> France, a colony? Sure you don't live in the Dordogne? Ok, but what about
> fried breakfasts, fish 'n chips, all that sort of thing.

Fried breakfast are too much hassle. Wittgenstein thought food was too
trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
& a lump of cheese). I tend to agree, but that sounds rather stodgy,
so I have muesli for breakfast and vary lunch around very simple meals
(beans on toast, cheese sandwich, scrambled egg...) And what's wrong
with fish & chips -- a Sainsbury two pack of cod + oven chips twice a
week and that's the hassle taken out of planning and cooking two main
meals a week!

> Or has the UK gone
> cordon bleu since I jumped ship?

Not in my house :-)

> > Cakes etc. A French meal without patisserie being offered ?? Most
> > cafés/restaurants will offer you a biscuit or chocolate with your
> > coffee. The French love their sweet stuff.

I must admit I do indulge in occasional pastries, the local Tesco
express has excellent ones.

> A wafer thin slice of dark chocolate as often as not. And as for ptisserie,
> usually a healthy, fruit-filled French-style 'dry' pastry. Often with the
> alternative of the likes of a fruit salad. And I've rarely come across a French
> family that doesn't put a bowl of fruit on the table as a desert option.

Isn't that common in Britain? My mother always had a bowl of fruit,
which was pointed to when bread pudding was off the menu.

> Not sure that heat-treated milk is bad for you - but in twenty years here I
> can't recall ever being offered any. They don't drink milk, just stick some
> (boiled usually) in a coffee sometimes.

Interesting. That other heart healthy nation, Japan, is also anti-
milk. I'll keep on putting soya milk on my muesli then. It tastes
better than milk, anyway.

> Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane
> packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up with
> the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.

Is it the fast eating, rather that quickly prepared food, that's the
problem? Relax, and eat your muesli slowly.

On Jun 6, 9:53 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:

"In health matters, mistaking correlation or association with
causation is an error frequently committed by those interpreting data.
The sun rises after the rooster crows; therefore roosters cause the
sun to rise. Eight out of ten gang members chew gum; therefore banning
chewing gum will curb gang violence. The association of wine and
improved cardiovascular health is only an association, and researchers
frequently attribute the lifestyles of the wine drinkers and/or the
antioxidants are the reason for the improvement - not the alcohol."

http://www.jrussellshealth.org/alc_iswinehealthy.html

"Paul Grieg" > a écrit dans le message de news:
...
On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG" > wrote:
> "Steve Y" > a écrit dans le message de news:
> ...
>>
>>> Diet. I think this depends on income. Those on limited incomes will
>>> exist on whatever their local "Hard Discount" has to offer when they go
>>> once a week, not everyone will have the opportunity to get to the local
>>> markets (that thankfully still exist). There are plenty of companies
>>> offering frozen food delivered to the door for those that don't have
>>> time to go shopping
>> Sure it plays a role, but there (ime) is a distinct difference between the
>> fare
>> offered by poorer families in France and the UK. Maybe it's the 'Brits eat to
>> live, French live to eat', thing. A question of pride. As for delivery
>> services,
>> perhaps it's the greater distances involved, but one of the major groceries
>> distribution services in France stopped covering my part of the Vaucluse a
>> year
>> or so back because it simply wasn't viable. People aren't so interested in
>> convenience as in quality, especially away from the main urban areas.
>
> Is this a good thing? The great philosophers were seldom gourmets.
>
> Making too much fuss about food distracts from more important
> matters, and often means devoting too much time and money to
> a basically trivial pursuit.
>
Definitely, but I think there's a little more to it. The French are more
family-oriented (although that is gradually changing with people travelling
farther to seek employment etc), and mealtimes are part of the glue that
reinforces a sense of togetherness and continuity. The quality, pride taken in
preparation, taking time to appreciate the meal, the ritualistic element, all
contribute to maintaining the structure of family life, and respect for the
older generations in particular.

> Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
> and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
> up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
> then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
> trivial, need.
>
> Then again, I would get Sainsbury's 'Taste the Difference' bread + M&S
> soft cheese spread rather than Lidl's basic white bread and cheese
> slices. But I wouldn't cycle fifteen miles to the local county town
> for goat cheese, or spend hours baking my own bread. There is always a
> middle way!

The distances are greater in France, and bear in mind that until very recently
it was always a lot more time-consuming to get to the big stores - closer at
hand are all the local shops. Even in a small village such as mine, with a
population of 2,500, there are 3 bakers, 1 butcher (2 up to a couple of years
back), a small DIY shop, a clothes shop, couple of hairdressers, maybe half a
dozen restaurants, a photographers, a greengrocers, street vendors selling fruit
and veg throughout the season, a weekly market, a PO and a couple of banks, a
tobacconists, etc. Plus the inevitable small supermarket (the nearest superstore
is a good 30 minutes' drive away). There's a sense of community that even when I
was in the UK had long disappeared from most equivalent-sized villages.

Urban areas are another issue, but there are still marked differences between
the two countries.

>>> Healthy Stuff. Here in the Beaujolais we don't have crisps (chips in
>>> colonialspeak) but we do have and are offered "saucisse", "jesus" and
>>> grattons, all of which have slightly raised levels of fat that my Doctor
>>> regulalrly warns me against.
>
> Ask why he's issuing these warnings when France has the lowest heart
> attack rate in Europe and all the locals eat that kind of thing.

Overprescribing has long been a problem (especially for the relevant state
budget), and it seems to be part of the GP psyche, checking for every possible
ailment. Reassuring to an extent, but there are inherent dangers too.

..../...

>> Still, the younger generations are gradually being seduced by the high octane
>> packaged fast-food lifestyle, and in maybe a decade or two, we'll catch up
>> with
>> the UK of today I reckon. Sad to say.
>
> Is it the fast eating, rather that quickly prepared food, that's the
> problem? Relax, and eat your muesli slowly.

Helps if you have a two hour lunch break, of course!

"Paul Grieg" > ha scritto nel messaggio
...
On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG"

snipped a list of supporting stuff

Even Epicurus had little interest in food! He didn't have much money
and lived happily on the most basic bread cheese because it fill you
up as well as any other food. So conveninence is a priority for me,
then I don't have to fuss around trying to satisy such a basic, and
trivial, need.

>There is always amiddle way!

Yes, there is, which is why there is Frank Sinatra and Abba between The
Stones and Mozart. If that's where you want to live, it is OK with me.

Wittgenstein thought food was too
trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
& a lump of cheese). I tend to agree, but that sounds rather stodgy,
so I have muesli for breakfast and vary lunch around very simple meals
(beans on toast, cheese sandwich, scrambled egg...) And what's wrong
with fish & chips -- a Sainsbury two pack of cod + oven chips twice a
week and that's the hassle taken out of planning and cooking two main
meals a week!

Some, not a few, think of cookery as an applied art form. You don't and
you've gathered a list of people who agree with you. Sllow for differences
among us and we will not carry you to the hill and burn you.

Not in my house :-)

Clearly

I must admit I do indulge in occasional pastries, the local Tesco
express has excellent ones.

In your estimation which might not be a shared perception among us all.

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 03:48:15 -0500, "jmcquown" >
wrote:

>sf wrote:
>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:59:41 +0200, Steve Y >
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>> WB... long time no see! Schaller is in France as we speak. Did she
> give you a heads up?
>
>I have no idea who you think this it but it's not the Steve who lives in
>Thailand.
>
If I'm not mistaken, Steve Young lives in rural France.

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

I'm a Yates not a Young

S

sf wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 03:48:15 -0500, "jmcquown" >
> wrote:
>
>> sf wrote:
>>> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:59:41 +0200, Steve Y >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Steve
>>>>
>>> WB... long time no see! Schaller is in France as we speak. Did she
>> give you a heads up?
>>
>> I have no idea who you think this it but it's not the Steve who lives in
>> Thailand.
>>
> If I'm not mistaken, Steve Young lives in rural France.
>

"Paul Grieg" > wrote in message
...
On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG" > wrote:
>
Wittgenstein thought food was too
trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
& a lump of cheese).

What a miserable sod he must have been!
Graham

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:11:30 +0200, Steve Y >
wrote:

>I'm a Yates not a Young

so, where are you located?

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Fri 06 Jun 2008 08:48:32p, sf told us...

> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:11:30 +0200, Steve Y >
> wrote:
>
>>I'm a Yates not a Young
>
> so, where are you located?
>

Apparently not in France. :-)

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Friday, 06(VI)/06(VI)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Few men have virtue to withstand the
highest bidder. - G.Washington
-------------------------------------------

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 03:54:16 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
> wrote:

>On Fri 06 Jun 2008 08:48:32p, sf told us...
>
>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:11:30 +0200, Steve Y >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>I'm a Yates not a Young
>>
>> so, where are you located?
>>
>
>Apparently not in France. :-)

in that case, what does fr mean?

--
See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Fri 06 Jun 2008 09:55:27p, sf told us...

> On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 03:54:16 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
> > wrote:
>
>>On Fri 06 Jun 2008 08:48:32p, sf told us...
>>
>>> On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:11:30 +0200, Steve Y >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>I'm a Yates not a Young
>>>
>>> so, where are you located?
>>>
>>
>>Apparently not in France. :-)
>
> in that case, what does fr mean?
>

I'm sure it means France, but that doesn't guarantee that he is in France.

--
Wayne Boatwright
-------------------------------------------
Friday, 06(VI)/06(VI)/08(MMVIII)
-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
Even the Holodeck women turn me down:
Wesley
-------------------------------------------

In the Beaujolais, NW of Lyon

Steve

sf wrote:
> so, where are you located?
>

On Jun 6, 12:21*pm, Paul Grieg > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 9:53 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
>
> "In health matters, mistaking correlation or association with
> causation is an error frequently committed by those interpreting data.
> The sun rises after the rooster crows; therefore roosters cause the
> sun to rise. Eight out of ten gang members chew gum; therefore banning
> chewing gum will curb gang violence. The association of wine and
> improved cardiovascular health is only an association, and researchers
> frequently attribute the lifestyles of the wine drinkers and/or the
> antioxidants are the reason for the improvement - not the alcohol."
>
Jailing gang members will cut the consumption of chewing gum and
improve the aesthetics of the street. You can understand the
statistics and make sense of them.

Antioxidants have recently been shown to be dangerous in excess,
particularly if consumed as tablets. So this is really yet more reason
to tuck into the red.

My flight last night was delayed by five hours, so I had a chance to
sample some quite good red wine. I'd enjoyed seeing some meerkats
(mongooses) this last week, they really are quite charming creatures -
particularly if viewed from a distance. The airport business lounge
(open to me because of the long delay) had some red wine with pictures
of meerkats on the bottles. I fear that this, coupled with the health
benefits I've had reinforced by this discussion, led me to enjoy more
than I should have. It had a beneficent side-effect for my fellow
travellers, though. They were a very sad bunch until I entertained
them with a little sketch on the wonders of travelling with South
African Airways - even the SAA officials seemed to approve of it.

My wife is peeved that I don't even have the hangover that I ought to
have in these circumstances...

On Jun 6, 11:44 am, "PG" > wrote:
> "Paul Grieg" > a écrit dans le message de
> Overprescribing has long been a problem (especially for the relevant state
> budget), and it seems to be part of the GP psyche, checking for every possible
> ailment. Reassuring to an extent, but there are inherent dangers too.

Yup. Check out the side effects of statins in Kendrick's book!

On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham" > wrote:
> "Paul Grieg" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG" > wrote:
>
> Wittgenstein thought food was too
> trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
> & a lump of cheese).
>
> What a miserable sod he must have been!
> Graham

Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
one a miserable sod? His final words we “Tell them I had a
wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.

On Jun 7, 8:47 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
> On Jun 6, 12:21 pm, Paul Grieg > wrote:> On Jun 6, 9:53 am, Peter Brooks > wrote:
>
> > "In health matters, mistaking correlation or association with
> > causation is an error frequently committed by those interpreting data.
> > The sun rises after the rooster crows; therefore roosters cause the
> > sun to rise. Eight out of ten gang members chew gum; therefore banning
> > chewing gum will curb gang violence. The association of wine and
> > improved cardiovascular health is only an association, and researchers
> > frequently attribute the lifestyles of the wine drinkers and/or the
> > antioxidants are the reason for the improvement - not the alcohol."
>
> Jailing gang members will cut the consumption of chewing gum and
> improve the aesthetics of the street. You can understand the
> statistics and make sense of them.
>
> Antioxidants have recently been shown to be dangerous in excess,
> particularly if consumed as tablets. So this is really yet more reason
> to tuck into the red.

But hardly sufficient reason. It is jut means you should avoid
antioxidants in the amounts indicated by this research (if it's good
research).

> My flight last night was delayed by five hours, so I had a chance to
> sample some quite good red wine. I'd enjoyed seeing some meerkats
> (mongooses) this last week, they really are quite charming creatures -
> particularly if viewed from a distance. The airport business lounge
> (open to me because of the long delay) had some red wine with pictures
> of meerkats on the bottles. I fear that this, coupled with the health
> benefits I've had reinforced by this discussion, led me to enjoy more
> than I should have.

Shows you should be careful who you talk to :-) Even the supportive
research stresses *moderate* consumption. One glass a day seems to be
the safest recommendation. Personally I can't be bothered with the
rigmarole of opening a bottle and vacuum sealing it daily (plus, like
you, I have a tendency to say 'what the hell' when confronted with a
full bottle!) So I don't drink, and I don't miss it. Then again if you
like the roller coaster ride of drinking, feeling up for a few hours,
socially inappropriate behaviour, being the life and soul of the
party, hangovers, cirrhosis, giving your tongue a treat, brain cell
destruction, early death, then go ahead. It's your choice. I prefer
the smooth and level ride these days.

> It had a beneficent side-effect for my fellow
> travellers, though. They were a very sad bunch until I entertained
> them with a little sketch on the wonders of travelling with South
> African Airways - even the SAA officials seemed to approve of it.

Is entertaining sad travellers worth the health risk?

> My wife is peeved that I don't even have the hangover that I ought to
> have in these circumstances...

Just tell her it's a useful early warning system that you lack, and
your liver's probably shot :-)

That'll cheer her up.

On Jun 7, 11:55*am, Paul Grieg > wrote:
>
>
> > My flight last night was delayed by five hours, so I had a chance to
> > sample some quite good red wine. I'd enjoyed seeing some meerkats
> > (mongooses) this last week, they really are quite charming creatures -
> > particularly if viewed from a distance. The airport business lounge
> > (open to me because of the long delay) had some red wine with pictures
> > of meerkats on the bottles. I fear that this, coupled with the health
> > benefits I've had reinforced by this discussion, led me to enjoy more
> > than I should have.
>
> Shows you should be careful who you talk to :-) Even the supportive
> research stresses *moderate* consumption. One glass a day seems to be
> the safest recommendation. Personally I can't be bothered with the
> rigmarole of opening a bottle and vacuum sealing it daily (plus, like
> you, I have a tendency to say 'what the hell' when confronted with a
> full bottle!) So I don't drink, and I don't miss it. Then again if you
> like the roller coaster ride of drinking, feeling up for a few hours,
> socially inappropriate behaviour, being the life and soul of the
> party, hangovers, cirrhosis, giving your tongue a treat, brain cell
> destruction, early death, then go ahead. It's your choice. *I prefer
> the smooth and level ride these days.
>
That's a reasonable choice. I don't get hangovers, so it isn't much of
a roller-coaster for me. I do like changes in my state of
consciousness, though, I enjoy sleep, I like being sober too (I spend
most of my time in that state, as it happens), I enjoy what alcohol
does and I'm quite partial to the effects of magic mushrooms
occasionally too. I think that, if you consider that a roller-coaster
ride, then I do like it, particularly as I seldom have an dips.

With red wine you don't need to seal it, the next day it can be even
better having had a whole day breathing.

Socially inappropriate behaviour? I know that excessive alcohol has
led to a lot of that in the UK, but I'm fortunate that my behaviour
remains about as inappropriate whether I'm drunk or sober - at least
that's what I gather from people who know me...
>
> > It had a beneficent side-effect for my fellow
> > travellers, though. They were a very sad bunch until I entertained
> > them with a little sketch on the wonders of travelling with South
> > African Airways - even the SAA officials seemed to approve of it.
>
> Is entertaining sad travellers worth the health risk?
>
For me, yes.
>
> > My wife is peeved that I don't even have the hangover that I ought to
> > have in these circumstances...
>
> Just tell her it's a useful early warning system that you lack, and
> your liver's probably shot :-)
>
> That'll cheer her up.
>
Yes, but it wouldn't be true. People with buggered livers have
horrible hangovers, it's one of natures way of supporting puritans.

On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 07:14:37 +0200, Steve Y >
wrote:

>In the Beaujolais, NW of Lyon
>
>Steve
>
>sf wrote:
>> so, where are you located?
>>
TY

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See return address to reply by email
remove the smile first

On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 23:12:59 GMT, "graham" > wrote:

>
>"Paul Grieg" > wrote in message
...
>On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG" > wrote:
>>
>Wittgenstein thought food was too
>trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
>& a lump of cheese).
>
>What a miserable sod he must have been!
>Graham
>

with a more varied diet, he coulda written a best-seller.

your pal,
danielle

On Jun 7, 11:37*am, Paul Grieg > wrote:
> On Jun 7, 12:12 am, "graham" > wrote:
>
> > "Paul Grieg" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> > On Jun 5, 7:47 pm, "PG" > wrote:
>
> > Wittgenstein thought food was too
> > trivial to waste time over so had the same lunch every day (boiled egg
> > & a lump of cheese).
>
> > What a miserable sod he must have been!
> > Graham
>
> Why? Have you any research to show that following a simple diet makes
> one a miserable sod? His final words we “Tell them I had a
> wonderful life.” Doesn't sound miserable to me.

I know that there is a Christian ideology that says that self-
punishment is good for a person. It is the ideology that resulted in
hairshirts and self-mutilation. But why any humanist should believe
that the pleasure of food is worth throwing away is beyond me. In what
way would eating well have hurt Wittgenstein, or anyone else? Surely
the life of Wittgenstein having the same miserable food everyday is
less good than the same life in which he had a variety of tasty
breakfasts and lunches?

Lance