Wayne Boatwright > fnord
5.247:

> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 06:21:32p, Saerah Gray told us...
>
>> Wayne Boatwright > fnord
>> 5.247:
>>
>>> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 04:24:33p, Dave Smith told us...
>>>
>>>> John Kane wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not against helping people in need! How many times do I have
>>>>>> to say that? I have a problem with deliberate freeloaders!
>>>>>> There are those that even feel that welfare recipients should be
>>>>>> drug screened...
>>>>>
>>>>> What freeloaders? The press may talk about 'freeloaders' but I
>>>>> bet they're awfully hard to find on the ground.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't know that many people on welfare, but I can think of a few
>>>> who were definite abusers. I spoke before of a family I knew on
>>>> welfare who spent most of their time online. Every in the family
>>>> had a their own computer, all state of the art.The father sabotaged
>>>> every job he eventually got. One daughter got student welfare
>>>> because he could not live with her family, but spent most of her
>>>> time at home with the family she could not live with, and the older
>>>> daughter set out to get pregnant during her first year of college.
>>>>
>>>> Then there is one of the kids who got caught breaking into my
>>>> house. He came from a welfare family, but at the age of 17 had his
>>>> own car. Not to mention one of his his burglary buddies, living on
>>>> student welfare.
>>>>
>>>> When I was working in commercial vehicle I came across a guy
>>>> driving under suspension. He was on his way to the local welfare
>>>> office to pick up his welfare cheque. He had a truck with NY plates
>>>> and a NY driver licence, and he is in Ontario to pick up his
>>>> welfare cheque? I called the welfare office to tell him that a NY
>>>> resident was on his way in to pick up a welfare cheque. They didn't
>>>> want to know about it until I asked if they preferred that I call
>>>> the local newspaper.
>>>
>>>>> Perhaps you should call your local welfare office and ask?
>>>>
>>>> See above.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I can remember a time, many years ago in Cleveland, where it was
>>> common to see many welfare recipients pulling up to the welfare
>>> offices in their new Cadillacs to pick up their checks.
>>>
>>> I know things aren't quite like that now, but it's an image one
>>> doesn't forget.
>>>
>>
>> Wayne, I have a hard time believing that people picking up their
>> welfare checks in Cadillacs was a "common" sight. I mean, I've seen
>> the video with Ol' Dirty *******, but I imagine that that is the
>> exception, rather than the rule.
>>
>
> You didn't live in Cleveland in the 1960s.
>

True. I didn't live *anywhere* in the 60's

--
Saerah

"Welcome to Usenet, Biatch! Adapt or haul ass!"
- some hillbilly from FL

Wayne Boatwright > fnord
5.247:

> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 06:55:05p, Saerah Gray told us...

>> True, but I'm glad for the paycheck too. I am grateful that I am able
>> to support my family. I've had much shittier jobs than the one I have
>> now.
>
> There are some people who work where I work that are there only
> because of the benfits. I know they'd rather be somewhere else doing
> something else. I am fortunately that I really like my job. I am
> thankful for the paycheck, and grateful for the medical insurance, and
> that I can pay my bills. Anything beyond that is gravy, but I don't
> get much gravy. :-)
>

Oh come now, Wayne, this is rfc- we should all know how to make it from
scratch, no?

--
Saerah

"Welcome to Usenet, Biatch! Adapt or haul ass!"
- some hillbilly from FL

On Mon 15 Sep 2008 07:43:12p, Saerah Gray told us...

> Wayne Boatwright > fnord
> 5.247:
>
>> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 06:55:05p, Saerah Gray told us...
>
>>> True, but I'm glad for the paycheck too. I am grateful that I am able
>>> to support my family. I've had much shittier jobs than the one I have
>>> now.
>>
>> There are some people who work where I work that are there only
>> because of the benfits. I know they'd rather be somewhere else doing
>> something else. I am fortunately that I really like my job. I am
>> thankful for the paycheck, and grateful for the medical insurance, and
>> that I can pay my bills. Anything beyond that is gravy, but I don't
>> get much gravy. :-)
>>
>
> Oh come now, Wayne, this is rfc- we should all know how to make it from
> scratch, no?

LOL! There's probably no gravy I haven't made from scratch, at least none
that I know about. Being on the "gravy train" is something else
altogether. :-)



--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Monday, 09(IX)/15(XV)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
8wks 4hrs 14mins
*******************************************
Building Contractors, not to be
confused with homemakers
*******************************************

wrote:
>I don't have a problem with providing welfare for those that really need
>it, but when it becomes a generational thing, the system is broken.

Wellfare isn't breaking the system. Most welfare recipients across
generations feel great shame in their dependency and have often tried to
hold down low paying jobs at various times in their lives.

>I'm not a far right conservative. ;-)
>I do have compassion for those that need help.
>I have no compassion for lazy sponges.

Who should get to decide who's a lazy sponge and who needs help? I don't
think I'd want you on that committee.

Orlando

wrote:
>Support them but also help educate them so they can
>achieve a better paying job.

Educate them how exactly? By overcrowding schools even more than they
currently are? By hiring more inexperienced underqualified teachers and
paying them less? By insisting on abstinence only prerequisites for
federal funding when that propaganda clearly doesn't prevent sexual
activity? How exactly do you plan to educate poor people more? You know
that it's going to cost more, right?

>Just throwing money at the problem won't
>fix it.

Funny, throwing water at thirsty people tends to fix their thirst.
Throwing air conditioning at hot people makes them sweat less. It would
stand to reason that giving the poor more money would alleviate some
poverty.

>I feel that _employing_ them is a better answer. Have them do something
>for the money they get from the govt.

Will you watch their kids while they're out earning their keep? Will you
drive them to and from job sites because they can't afford vehicles of
their own?

Orlando

wrote:
>Government work programs. I already stated that.
>Give them the welfare they need, but make them work for it.
>It really is that simple...

Doing what exactly? What would you hire these people to do around your
house or in your neighborhood?

>I believe in helping people, just not in giving them a totally free
>ride. I work hard for the money I make.

So would they if given jobs. Most of these people are chronically
rejected for the jobs they try to get, and that has little to do with
their attire or speech patterns, as many conservatives allege. It has
everything to do with racism, classicism and outright discrimination
against the poor. Employers often reject single mothers because they
fear conflicts arising from child care emergencies.

Orlando

wrote:
>_Home_ work is my idea.
>That way they can stay home with the kids.

What kinds of home work would they likely do? They'd likely work in
customer service, as telemarketers or multilevel spammers, all of whom
carry immense social stigma.

>There are some people that don't _want_ to get off of welfare and some
>are generational.

Do you know any such people personally? If so, would you provide us an
anonymous case study of their age, gender, race, educational background
and overall mental state?

>I'm not against helping people in need! How many times do I have to say
>that? I have a problem with deliberate freeloaders!

I'm saying that you'd be hard pressed to tell freeloaders apart from
genuine people in need.

>There are those that even feel that welfare recipients should be drug screened...


I sure do. They should also have their benefits cut in the event of
pregnancy outside a committed relationship.

>Did I ever mention an amount? Is welfare less than minimum wage?

Absolutely!

Orlando

wrote:
>Welfare ABUSERS are the problem and the issue.
>I'll say again, I have no problem with helping people that need help!
>It's those that go out of their way to earn a free living that are the
>entire problem!

Could you describe for us the process of going out of one's way to come
by a free living via welfare? I could use some tips.

Orlando

think now of vets hosp,s ,men ,women ,in care .long term, supported by
our tax moneys , then, state hosp,s ,care s for folks with no ins ,or
wages ,
plus prisons , housing bulks of locked
in ,men women ,children,
institutions for disabled ,young old ,
its not just careless breedings ,.in one color grp, its become mod to
think ones enough ,but thats like personal,needs ,or ethnic grps
tribal,policys ,
religious too,dictate ,family size ,one for dad ,one for mom, one for
country ,
etc,
one cannot go to heaven ,with out charity
a coarse sound of brass , ,lack of holiness ,
human renewalls ,built in ,working for sire upstairs ,

wrote:
>Orlando, you're talking to a bunch of mouth-breathing, chest-thumping,
>pot-bellied, gun-toting, racist pigs here, for the most part. This thread
>has changed the way I think about many of those I used to like or at least
>tolerate in this group, and has plumped up my kill file quite nicely.

The thing is, why do we even discuss this stuff when it's so
hypocritical for privileged computer literate foodies to pontificate
about welfare's moral rectitude? I've seen opinions change during this
thread simply because it turned out that some regular RFC posters have
either gotten very sick or spent some time on welfare. All of a sudden,
people like these are not abusing the system. But, if they hadn't
identified themselves here, they would have been lumped in with
deadbeats and freeloaders.

Orlando

wrote:
>Wait, was that how Bush got elected twice?

No, Bush got elected because the American people are too dumb to realize
when they're being lied to and exploited to suit the agendas of the
powerful few.

Orlando

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

> wrote:
> >Wait, was that how Bush got elected twice?
>
> No, Bush got elected because the American people are too dumb to realize
> when they're being lied to and exploited to suit the agendas of the
> powerful few.


Gee, isn't that what the Pugs say when a *Dem* POTUS gets elected...???


--
Best
Greg

"Orlando Enrique Fiol" > wrote in message
.. .
> wrote:
>>Wait, was that how Bush got elected twice?
>
> No, Bush got elected because the American people are too dumb to realize
> when they're being lied to and exploited to suit the agendas of the
> powerful few.
>


Do YOU tango?

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:39:42 -0700 (PDT), John Kane
> wrote:

>On Sep 15, 12:40*pm, "Gregory Morrow" > wrote:
>> Sheldon wrote:
>>
>> On Sep 15, 4:08?am, Omelet > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > ?Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
>>
>> > > wrote:
>> > > >Yet, there are a lot of women of that generation who are still on
>> > > >welfare, as are their children. Meanwhile, the rest of us went to
>> > > >school, got jobs, found places to live and then had children. ?What
>> > > >suckers we were. We could have stayed home and let others support us.
>> > > >Instead, we paid higher taxes to look after them and their kids as well
>> > > >as ourselves.
>>
>> > > You make it sound like life below the poverty line is a sumptuous
>> > > picnic. Have you ever asked these scores of welfare recipients you know
>> > > to provide you detailed budgets so that you see what their lives are
>> > > really like? Have you ever been to a food bank or gone to an electric or
>> > > phone company in tears because service got cut off? Have you ever had to
>> > > boil water to take a hot shower because the landlord turned off the hot
>> > > water heater? Have you ever seen your children covered in rat bites? I
>> > > suspect not, which means you know nothing about what life on welfare
>> > > actually is. As for your precious tax dollars, I don't see you
>> > > complaining when your taxes are used to fund wars, pay crooked
>> > > representatives or selectively patronize certain art forms over others.
>> > > Yet, when 1% of your taxes go toward the poor, you rant and rave on here
>> > > as though you were being ripped off.
>>
>> > > Orlando
>>
>> > Good rant and perspective.
>>
>> I'll agree it's a rant... but there's no true perspective... where's
>> the perspective about no account parasite *******s who refuse to work.
>> ---------------------
>>
>> GM replies:
>>
>> Yup, like a person I know who not only freeloads off of her partner (who
>> works 60 hours per week) but also off the public system. *Got a sympathetic
>> doctor to diagnose her with MS and so she has a boatload of benefits (SSI,
>> etc.). *Has also received settlements from several somewhat bogus lawsuits
>> against the po - leece, the last was apparantly enough "to buy a piece of
>> land and build a house" I was told. *The last job she held (more than a
>> decade ago) she successfully sued for "racial harrasment" - this at a firm
>> that is very minority - friendly and her boss was a black woman...go
>> figger...!!!
>>
>> This gal gets up at noon each day, then hits the bar for Happy Hour each
>> day, she drinks top - shelf Scotch only, natch. * She tells folks she is
>> "too sick to work...sometimes I don't feel good...". *Yet she attended the
>> Dem convention for a week in Denver, partying hearty, natch - and on someone
>> else's tab.. *She's been to Europe *four* times in the past year and is
>> going again over New Year's. *As she sez, "Heck, anyone with a spare coupla
>> thou sitting around these days can pop over to Paris or Berlin or Amsterdam
>> for a week...".
>>
>> I guess I wouldn't mind *so* much, but she's very vocal about us "suckers
>> that work". *When I once told her that she puts more energy into partying
>> than many of us do into work, she got all indignant, e.g. "But sometimes I
>> don't feel good...", to which I replied, "Well, I don't 'feel good' either
>> when that buzzer goes off at 5:00 AM, but...".
>>
>> This is one of the more egregrious cases I know of, but there are plenty
>> more like this. "A party lifestyle on someone else's dime...", I guess I
>> shouldn't mock it but then I couldn't imagine living like this, I'd rather
>> be dead...
>>
>> --
>> Best
>> Greg-
>
>Unless you can supply names and cases docket numbers etc I tend to
>doubt the accuracy of this.
>
>John Kane Kingston ON Canada.

There are always those people who can give anything a bad name. Even
here on rfc.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

wrote:
>Do YOU tango?

No, but I adore Astor Piazzola's tangos and am teaching myself chromatic
button accordion because I already play a mean piano. Does any of that
count?

Orlando

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 04:24:33p, Dave Smith told us...
>
>> John Kane wrote:
>>
>>>> I'm not against helping people in need! How many times do I have
>>>> to say that? I have a problem with deliberate freeloaders! There
>>>> are those that even feel that welfare recipients should be drug
>>>> screened...
>>>
>>> What freeloaders? The press may talk about 'freeloaders' but I bet
>>> they're awfully hard to find on the ground.
>>
>>
>> I don't know that many people on welfare, but I can think of a few
>> who were definite abusers. I spoke before of a family I knew on
>> welfare who spent most of their time online. Every in the family had
>> a their own computer, all state of the art.The father sabotaged
>> every job he eventually got. One daughter got student welfare
>> because he could not live with her family, but spent most of her
>> time at home with the family she could not live with, and the older
>> daughter set out to get pregnant during her first year of college.
>>
>> Then there is one of the kids who got caught breaking into my house.
>> He came from a welfare family, but at the age of 17 had his own car.
>> Not to mention one of his his burglary buddies, living on student
>> welfare.
>>
>> When I was working in commercial vehicle I came across a guy driving
>> under suspension. He was on his way to the local welfare office to
>> pick up his welfare cheque. He had a truck with NY plates and a NY
>> driver licence, and he is in Ontario to pick up his welfare cheque?
>> I called the welfare office to tell him that a NY resident was on
>> his way in to pick up a welfare cheque. They didn't want to know
>> about it until I asked if they preferred that I call the local
>> newspaper.
>
>>> Perhaps you should call your local welfare office and ask?
>>
>> See above.
>>
>
> I can remember a time, many years ago in Cleveland, where it was
> common to see many welfare recipients pulling up to the welfare
> offices in their new Cadillacs to pick up their checks.
>
> I know things aren't quite like that now, but it's an image one
> doesn't forget.

I went to the Welfare office before with a friend of mine. Some of these
women wanting benefits had the "bling-bling" jewelry draped up their arms,
all around their necks, in their ears and wrapped around their fingers.
They let their kids run all around the office, screaming, and I think we
pulled up in the most raggedy car. My friend is a single mom with two kids
and got evicted from her apartment because the job she had couldn't afford
to pay the rent when her boyfriend walked out on them. She had a minimum
wage job at a convenience store and needed some sort of assistance, whether
it be food stamps, temporary shelter or welfare. They denied her all three
things because she made $6 an hour, part time. She made too much money.
She left there crying after we had been waiting for about 4 hours.

What did she do? She and her girls lived out of her car until she found a
single guy with money who she didn't care about, but sucked up enough to,
for him to let her move in with the kids. Sad.

kili

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

> wrote:
>>Orlando, you're talking to a bunch of mouth-breathing, chest-thumping,
>>pot-bellied, gun-toting, racist pigs here, for the most part. This
>>thread has changed the way I think about many of those I used to like
>>or at least tolerate in this group, and has plumped up my kill file
>>quite nicely.
>
> The thing is, why do we even discuss this stuff when it's so
> hypocritical for privileged computer literate foodies to pontificate
> about welfare's moral rectitude?

Hmmm. Bit rich coming the first poster to respond to the OP in this
thread. Seems to me that if you didn't wanna discuss it you wouldn't
have bothered to respond. So I guess that makes you one of
the 'hypocritical privileged computer literate foodies' too.

--
Cheers
Chatty Cathy

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> wrote:
>> Wait, was that how Bush got elected twice?
>
> No, Bush got elected because the American people are too dumb to realize
> when they're being lied to and exploited to suit the agendas of the
> powerful few.


Bush lied? So did you when you started this thread with a claim that
most welfare recipients are white men.

On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:13:01 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
> wrote:

>On Mon 15 Sep 2008 06:51:23p, Boron Elgar told us...
>
>> On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:41:21 GMT, Wayne Boatwright

>>>
>>>You are definitely someone I would like to meet in *real* life. :-)
>>
>>
>> That would be a great pleasure of mine, sir.
>>
>> Boron
>>
>
>Thank you... If I ever make it back East someday...

Or I ever make it to Arizona.

Boron

On Sep 15, 11:19*pm, Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote:
> wrote:
> >Support them but also help educate them so they can
> >achieve a better paying job.
>
> Educate them how exactly? By overcrowding schools even more than they
> currently are? By hiring more inexperienced underqualified teachers and
> paying them less? By insisting on abstinence only prerequisites for
> federal funding when that propaganda clearly doesn't prevent sexual
> activity? How exactly do you plan to educate poor people more? You know
> that it's going to cost more, right?
>
> >Just throwing money at the problem won't
> >fix it.
>
> Funny, throwing water at thirsty people tends to fix their thirst.
> Throwing air conditioning at hot people makes them sweat less. It would
> stand to reason that giving the poor more money would alleviate some
> poverty.
>
> >I feel that _employing_ them is a better answer. Have them do something
> >for the money they get from the govt.
>
> Will you watch their kids while they're out earning their keep? Will you
> drive them to and from job sites because they can't afford vehicles of
> their own?
>
> Orlando

Frankly, if I ruled the world, I'd neuter and spay them, and any that
proved
to be ineducable would find work sorting recyclables and similar dirty
jobs. Their children would be turned over to someone competent to
raise them.

However, in the real world, that's not an option. It's a thorny
problem, because
it's difficult to educate people who don't value education. That is a
problem at
more than one socioeconomic level.

Cindy Hamilton

Cindy Hamilton wrote:

>
>
> Frankly, if I ruled the world, I'd neuter and spay them, and any that
> proved
> to be ineducable would find work sorting recyclables and similar dirty
> jobs. Their children would be turned over to someone competent to
> raise them.
>
> However, in the real world, that's not an option. It's a thorny
> problem, because
> it's difficult to educate people who don't value education. That is a
> problem at
> more than one socioeconomic level.


Therein lies the main problem. Jails are full of uneducated guys and
some will jump on the low education rates in jails to claim that
educating people would better equip them to live a productive live.
Most of them had the opportunity to attend school and get a proper
education but they weren't interested. They skipped classes, fooled
around in class, neglected their studies and dropped out. They were
given the opportunity but they weren't interested. They would rather
have a good time than sit in school. Let's face it, people of some
cultures have place much more value in education than others.

On Sep 15, 4:07*pm, blake murphy > wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:38:53 -0500, Omelet wrote:
> > In article 7>,
> > *Wayne Boatwright > wrote:
>
> >> On Sun 14 Sep 2008 03:53:54p, Saerah Gray told us...
>
> >>> So children should starve because their parents can't or won't get a job?
>
> >> No, the children should be taken away from them and put up for adoption. *The
> >> kids shouldn't have parent(s) who won't provide for them, and the parent(s)
> >> shouldn't be allowed to keep them.
>
> > <shudder> *It used to be that way... My dad is a victim of that
> > mentality. :-(
>
> > Probably not a bad idea, but it's terribly harsh.
>
> um, maybe being terribly harsh makes it a bad idea? *just thinking out loud
> here.
>
> blake-
No but all you need to do is come to Canada and ask about the
Residential Schools scandal and you will know that that taking kids
away from their parents is a risky and bad business.

The Austrialians are dealing with the Lost Generation problem which
seems to be similar.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Sep 15, 7:24*pm, Dave Smith > wrote:
> John Kane wrote:
> >> I'm not against helping people in need! How many times do I have to say
> >> that? *I have a problem with deliberate freeloaders! *There are those
> >> that even feel that welfare recipients should be drug screened...
>
> > What freeloaders? *The press may talk about 'freeloaders' but I bet
> > they're awfully hard to find on the ground.
>
> I don't know that many people on welfare, but I can think of a few who
> were definite abusers. I spoke before of a family I knew on welfare who
> spent most of their time online. Every in the family had a their own
> computer, all state of the art.The father sabotaged every job he
> eventually got. One daughter got student welfare because he could not
> live with her family, but spent most of her time at home with the family
> she could not live with, and the older daughter set out to get pregnant
> during her first *year of college.
>
> Then there is one of the kids who got caught breaking into my house. He
> came from a welfare family, but at the age of 17 had his own car. Not to
> mention one of his his burglary buddies, living on student welfare.
>
> When I was working in commercial vehicle I came across a guy driving
> under suspension. He was on his way to the local welfare office to pick
> up his welfare cheque. He had a truck with NY plates *and a NY driver
> licence, and he is in Ontario to pick up his welfare cheque? I called
> the welfare office to tell him that a NY resident was on his way in to
> pick up a welfare cheque. They didn't want to know about it until I
> asked if they preferred that I call the local newspaper.
>
> > Perhaps you should call your local welfare office and ask?
>
> See above.

So? I know a number of people who drive like maniacs, don't have auto
insurance, and probably are driving without a licence. Ergo we should
confiscate all cars in Ontario?

It is possible in almost any situation to find outliers but it's
tarring everyone with the same brush to claim that eveyone does it.

Come to think of it I have know one or two lazy Ont Gov't employees.
Does this mean that you were a layabout on the job?

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Sep 15, 8:41*pm, Wayne Boatwright >
wrote:
> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 04:24:33p, Dave Smith told us...
>
>
>
>
>
> > John Kane wrote:
>
> >>> I'm not against helping people in need! How many times do I have to say
> >>> that? *I have a problem with deliberate freeloaders! *There are those
> >>> that even feel that welfare recipients should be drug screened...
>
> >> What freeloaders? *The press may talk about 'freeloaders' but I bet
> >> they're awfully hard to find on the ground.
>
> > I don't know that many people on welfare, but I can think of a few who
> > were definite abusers. I spoke before of a family I knew on welfare who
> > spent most of their time online. Every in the family had a their own
> > computer, all state of the art.The father sabotaged every job he
> > eventually got. One daughter got student welfare because he could not
> > live with her family, but spent most of her time at home with the family
> > she could not live with, and the older daughter set out to get pregnant
> > during her first *year of college.
>
> > Then there is one of the kids who got caught breaking into my house. He
> > came from a welfare family, but at the age of 17 had his own car. Not to
> > mention one of his his burglary buddies, living on student welfare.
>
> > When I was working in commercial vehicle I came across a guy driving
> > under suspension. He was on his way to the local welfare office to pick
> > up his welfare cheque. He had a truck with NY plates *and a NY driver
> > licence, and he is in Ontario to pick up his welfare cheque? I called
> > the welfare office to tell him that a NY resident was on his way in to
> > pick up a welfare cheque. They didn't want to know about it until I
> > asked if they preferred that I call the local newspaper.
> >> Perhaps you should call your local welfare office and ask?
>
> > See above.
>
> I can remember a time, many years ago in Cleveland, where it was common to
> see many welfare recipients pulling up to the welfare offices in their new
> Cadillacs to pick up their checks.

You have pictures? I really find this hard, well damn near impossible
to believe.

>
> I know things aren't quite like that now, but it's an image one doesn't
> forget.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada

wrote:
>What did she do? She and her girls lived out of her car until she found a
>single guy with money who she didn't care about, but sucked up enough to,
>for him to let her move in with the kids. Sad.

Sounds downright practical to me. Deep down, I bet that guy understands
how much she needs him and takes comfort in that, knowing she probably
will never leave him as long as he provides for her. More relationships
should be based on that kind of need.

Orlando

On Sep 15, 4:27*pm, blake murphy > wrote:
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:45:18 GMT, Saerah Gray wrote:
> > Omelet > fnord
> >news
>
> >> In article > ,
> >> *T > wrote:
>
> >>> So tell me since you're the expert, what reforms would you make to
> >>> the welfare system?
>
> >> Government work programs. *I already stated that.
>
> >> Give them the welfare they need, but make them work for it.
> >> It really is that simple...
>
> >> I believe in helping people, just not in giving them a totally free
> >> ride. I work hard for the money I make.
>
> > So will the government pay for child care under your program, too?
>
> > An overhaul of the system is needed, certainly. What kind of jobs are we
> > going to give these people so that they can get off welfare and make a
> > living that is enough to support their family?
>
> > It's more complicated than "have them work for the money". Basically,
> > you would have these people work for *less* than minimum wage. And
> > that's not a solution.
>
> well, then, they'll just have to starve! *problem solved!
>
> (dibs on their big-screen t.v.'s.)

I get the Cadillacs.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

wrote:
>Bush lied? So did you when you started this thread with a claim that
>most welfare recipients are white men.

Thus far, my inadvertent statistical mistake hasn't killed anyone or
drained billions from our national budget. I think I'm good.

Orlando

wrote:
>Therein lies the main problem. Jails are full of uneducated guys and
>some will jump on the low education rates in jails to claim that
>educating people would better equip them to live a productive live.
>Most of them had the opportunity to attend school and get a proper
>education but they weren't interested. They skipped classes, fooled
>around in class, neglected their studies and dropped out. They were
>given the opportunity but they weren't interested. They would rather
>have a good time than sit in school. Let's face it, people of some
>cultures have place much more value in education than others.

Most other cultures anticipate that not everyone will want to be
educated. The problem with the American paradigm is that we seem to
think education is the solution to all problems. I know plenty of
college educated people who are barely getting by, which was not the end
their high school recruiters promised. As for young men goofing off and
skipping class, try putting yourself in their mindset. If you saw all
around you how unstable the job market is and how difficult it is to get
and keep jobs, combined with bloated school bureaucracies and
disinterested teachers, wouldn't having fun with your friends make more
sense in the short run? Bottom line, people who choose not to stay in
school should be able to make a living too.

Orlando

On Sep 15, 9:18*pm, Saerah Gray > wrote:
> John Kane > :
>
>
>
>
>
> >Om wrote:
>
> >> Did I ever mention an amount? Is welfare less than minimum wage?
>
> > Perhaps you should call your local welfare office and ask?
>
> > You might find it suprising. *Texas minimum wage is $6.55 apparently.
> >http://www.dol.gov/esa/minwage/america.htm#Texas
>
> > I don't know enough about Texas and US laws and terminology to easily
> > track down the welfare equivelent.
>
> > Welfare *is well below the minumum wage *in Ontario *$520 pear month
> > according to this site *
> >http://www.uclg.ca/en/services/ontar...assistance.asp
>
> > Ontario minimum wage is $8 / hr. *or roughly $1200 per month (assuming
> > a 40 hour week)
> >http://lpaula.wordpress.com/2007/02/...e-hike-canada/
>
> > Ergo 520/1200 is roughly 43% of the minumum wage.
>
> Thanks for looking all that up so I didn't have to
>
> --
> Saerah

No problem, I do that type of thing for a living so it only took a
couple of minutes.
BTW that works out to $3.47 CDN an hour.

I'd like to know what the Texas rate is.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>
>> given the opportunity but they weren't interested. They would rather
>> have a good time than sit in school. Let's face it, people of some
>> cultures have place much more value in education than others.
>
> Most other cultures anticipate that not everyone will want to be
> educated.

Yet, that does not stop those stop value education from completing high
school and going on to college. They know that some people will not have
jobs and that some people will have to fill the lowest positions... but
it won't be them.



>The problem with the American paradigm is that we seem to
> think education is the solution to all problems. I know plenty of
> college educated people who are barely getting by, which was not the end
> their high school recruiters promised.

Imagine how much worse it could be for them without the education. While
a high school diploma or a college degree is not a guarantee of a
successful and financially rewarding career, it is generally a requirement.



> As for young men goofing off and
> skipping class, try putting yourself in their mindset. If you saw all
> around you how unstable the job market is and how difficult it is to get
> and keep jobs,

Sure, some people will see that an feel that they are wasting their time
because there is nothing out there for them. Other's will be inspired to
work that much harder to get out of that situation. Some are bright
enough to realize that in order to win they at least have to try. Every
year thousands of people compete in the Boston Marathon, but only one of
them is going to win. You don't have any chance at all if you don't try.


> combined with bloated school bureaucracies and

As if the kids know about the bureaucracy.

> disinterested teachers, wouldn't having fun with your friends make more
> sense in the short run?

Not all teachers are disinterested, but who can blame some of those who
become that way after years of dealing with students who don't care and
who disrespect their teachers.


>Bottom line, people who choose not to stay in
> school should be able to make a living too.


They should be able to "make a living" as in working to earn a wage, or
they should be able to sit back and collect money from the government
because they are unemployable?

Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
> wrote:
>> Bush lied? So did you when you started this thread with a claim that
>> most welfare recipients are white men.
>
> Thus far, my inadvertent statistical mistake hasn't killed anyone or
> drained billions from our national budget. I think I'm good.


Granted you lie, has not cost thousands of lies and billions of
dollars. Never the less, it was a lie and not a statistical mistake. It
was a blatantly false claim that you made in order to support your
agenda. You that that most welfare recipients are white men. The
statistics are quite clear that white men are the least likely to be on
welfare.

John Kane wrote:
>
> No but all you need to do is come to Canada and ask about the
> Residential Schools scandal and you will know that that taking kids
> away from their parents is a risky and bad business.

So much for trying to provide an education to them. It seemed at the
time to be the most practical way of providing an education to people
who lived in tiny remote communities and to prepare them for life in the
modern era. Of course, those same communities are now demanding more
access to education. Go figger.

On Tue 16 Sep 2008 05:49:10a, Boron Elgar told us...

> On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 02:13:01 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
> > wrote:
>
>>On Mon 15 Sep 2008 06:51:23p, Boron Elgar told us...
>>
>>> On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 01:41:21 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
>
>>>>
>>>>You are definitely someone I would like to meet in *real* life. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>> That would be a great pleasure of mine, sir.
>>>
>>> Boron
>>>
>>
>>Thank you... If I ever make it back East someday...
>
> Or I ever make it to Arizona.
>
> Boron
>

Indeed!

--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Tuesday, 09(IX)/16(XVI)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
7wks 6dys 15hrs 52mins
*******************************************
To be 19 and a poet is to be 19. To be
40 and a poet is to be a poet
*******************************************

On Tue 16 Sep 2008 07:22:13a, John Kane told us...

> On Sep 15, 8:41*pm, Wayne Boatwright >
> wrote:
>> On Mon 15 Sep 2008 04:24:33p, Dave Smith told us...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > John Kane wrote:
>>
>> >>> I'm not against helping people in need! How many times do I have to
s
> ay
>> >>> that? *I have a problem with deliberate freeloaders! *There are t
> hose
>> >>> that even feel that welfare recipients should be drug screened...
>>
>> >> What freeloaders? *The press may talk about 'freeloaders' but I bet
>> >> they're awfully hard to find on the ground.
>>
>> > I don't know that many people on welfare, but I can think of a few who
>> > were definite abusers. I spoke before of a family I knew on welfare
who
>> > spent most of their time online. Every in the family had a their own
>> > computer, all state of the art.The father sabotaged every job he
>> > eventually got. One daughter got student welfare because he could not
>> > live with her family, but spent most of her time at home with the
famil
> y
>> > she could not live with, and the older daughter set out to get
pregnant
>> > during her first *year of college.
>>
>> > Then there is one of the kids who got caught breaking into my house.
He
>> > came from a welfare family, but at the age of 17 had his own car. Not
t
> o
>> > mention one of his his burglary buddies, living on student welfare.
>>
>> > When I was working in commercial vehicle I came across a guy driving
>> > under suspension. He was on his way to the local welfare office to
pick
>> > up his welfare cheque. He had a truck with NY plates *and a NY driver
>> > licence, and he is in Ontario to pick up his welfare cheque? I called
>> > the welfare office to tell him that a NY resident was on his way in to
>> > pick up a welfare cheque. They didn't want to know about it until I
>> > asked if they preferred that I call the local newspaper.
>> >> Perhaps you should call your local welfare office and ask?
>>
>> > See above.
>>
>> I can remember a time, many years ago in Cleveland, where it was common
t
> o
>> see many welfare recipients pulling up to the welfare offices in their
ne
> w
>> Cadillacs to pick up their checks.
>
> You have pictures? I really find this hard, well damn near impossible
> to believe.

No, John, I don't. It was over 40 years ago and I wasn't interested in
taking pictures of it. I don't know how old you are, but I do know that
things were very different in Cleveland in those days.

>> I know things aren't quite like that now, but it's an image one doesn't
>> forget.
> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
>



--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Tuesday, 09(IX)/16(XVI)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
7wks 6dys 15hrs 51mins
*******************************************
I'm not crazy. I just have a unique
sense of reality.
*******************************************

On Tue 16 Sep 2008 07:23:44a, John Kane told us...

> On Sep 15, 4:27*pm, blake murphy > wrote:
>> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:45:18 GMT, Saerah Gray wrote:
>> > Omelet > fnord
>> >news
>>
>> >> In article > ,
>> >> *T > wrote:
>>
>> >>> So tell me since you're the expert, what reforms would you make to
>> >>> the welfare system?
>>
>> >> Government work programs. *I already stated that.
>>
>> >> Give them the welfare they need, but make them work for it.
>> >> It really is that simple...
>>
>> >> I believe in helping people, just not in giving them a totally free
>> >> ride. I work hard for the money I make.
>>
>> > So will the government pay for child care under your program, too?
>>
>> > An overhaul of the system is needed, certainly. What kind of jobs are
w
> e
>> > going to give these people so that they can get off welfare and make a
>> > living that is enough to support their family?
>>
>> > It's more complicated than "have them work for the money". Basically,
>> > you would have these people work for *less* than minimum wage. And
>> > that's not a solution.
>>
>> well, then, they'll just have to starve! *problem solved!
>>
>> (dibs on their big-screen t.v.'s.)
>
> I get the Cadillacs.

They'd probabaly rust buckets by now, given the age and how much salt
Cleveland used to use on their roads in those days. Otherwise, they might
be nice vintage cars.

> John Kane Kingston ON Canada
>



--
Wayne Boatwright

*******************************************
Date: Tuesday, 09(IX)/16(XVI)/08(MMVIII)
*******************************************
Countdown till Veteran's Day
7wks 6dys 15hrs 49mins
*******************************************
'Help me, will ya? I'm old.'--Slappy
*******************************************

In article >,
(Denise in NH) wrote:

> I wasn't sure I wanted to weigh in on this conversation, but I think I
> will. I have been the director of a food pantry for 18 years. Because
> we are given government surplus food, we must follow the government
> guidelines for eligibility.
>
> These are the income eligibility limits ( in NH) :
>
> family of one = $19,240
> two = $25,900
> five = $45,880
> eight = $65,860
>
> If someone comes in with a gross household income under these amounts
> they are automatically qualified.
>
> There are many other aids to the needy besides welfare. I have had very
> few clients who were actually on state funded welfare. I've had a few
> on town funded welfare. In my town if you are able to work, and you
> have received help from the town, they put you to work at the library,
> or town dump/recycling center, etc to pay back the money.
>
> The majority of my clients now are 70+ year old widows. It's
> heartbreaking sometimes when a new client comes in crying because she is
> so ashamed to have to ask for help. Their husbands served their country
> in WW2, they paid their taxes, raised families, worked their butts off
> their whole lives, and now that they are retired, many are widows living
> in government subsidized housing, getting their food from a food pantry.
> They can barely afford their medicines/healthcare.
>
> I also see a lot of illiteracy as a reason for public assistance. I
> have a client who is receiving disability, is almost illiterate, and at
> 45 years old is now raising her 2 teenaged nephews, one of whom now has
> a newborn, on $8,000 a year.
>
> We have a few "traditional" families (mom & dad + kids) who have no real
> education beyond high school and no particular job skills who go from
> job to job to job. When you are the low man on the totem pole, you're
> usually the first one layed off in a downsizing, so you get another job,
> where, again, you are low man on the totem pole, get layed off again,
> and it just goes on forever. They never seem able to get ahead.
>
> We have had our share of drug/alcohol problem families too, but they
> don't seem able to hang around very long to receive aid, because NH is a
> very expensive place to live.
>
> I agree that some families just seem to pass down the tendency to depend
> on public assistance. Some truly are deserving, some aren't. There's
> always an element who seem to think they are entitled, but they are the
> exception, thank God. At least in my experience.
>
> I sometimes wish we could pass out birth control, but that's not my
> role.
>
> Some of my clients have been with me for the entire 18 years, coming in
> every other week for food. There's a segment of society who will never
> have a better way of life. Social Security and disability checks don't
> keep up with inflation, the price of gas is depleting any little extra
> they might have had left over. Many of my seniors live in the same
> subsidized complex and are now carpooling to the food pantry, and those
> who are able, are so eager to help me whenever I need help sorting a
> canned goods drive. A few even have worked with me on a weekly basis.
> I could never get one of the young clients to help out. It just shows
> how the older generation still feels that you MUST work for your
> rewards.
>
> I guess my reason for writing is to let you know that some of us are
> really trying to sort out and help the truly needy. I realize that this
> is not the same as huge cities dealing with massive welfare problems,
> but on a smaller scale, it's some of the same types of people. Some
> you'd like to kick in the butt, most you'd give the shirt off your back
> to.
>
> Please support your local food pantries, sometimes a little extra help
> in a time of crises is all that's needed to help someone through the
> toughest time in their lives.
>
> Don't get me started on the woman who rolled in in a Lincoln Towncar,
> waved a W-2 form with an income of over $80,000, for a 2 person family,
> and almost punched me out, when I informed her that $80,000 was way over
> the income limit. She insisted that no one could possibly be expected
> to survive on $80,000 a year, because, after all, that was before taxes.
> She stormed out fuming when I told her that most of our clients made
> less than $20,000 a year, before taxes, and had 3 or 4 kids.
>
> It takes all kinds.
>
> Denise

Thanks for the perspective...
--
Peace! Om

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." --Mark Twain

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> > I'm reading all this and I'm feeling a little sad and ashamed at what some
> > folks are saying because I'm on disability. I don't get much a month, but
> > if I don't receive my monthly disability allowance, I don't get Medicaid -
> > that's the rule. I can tell Social Security that I don't want their money,
> > but if I don't take it I can't receive Medicaid. It's kind of silly.
> >
> > Medicaid is *state*-funded free health care, not *federally*- funded free
> > health care. It takes a lot of phone calls, paperwork, leg work and time
> > to
> > finally qualify for it. You've got to get all your doctor records
> > together,
> > take a psychiatric evaluation, get all your financial statements in order,
> > taxes, gosh. It was a full-time job to become eligible. I guess they make
> > it that difficult to weed out the lazy folks and the ones who are out to
> > abuse the system.
> >
>
> really, being poor is a lot of work. it's not surprising these folks don't
> have time to hold down a job.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Disability is also not the same as Welfare... Kili has nothing to be
ashamed of.
--
Peace! Om

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." --Mark Twain

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 02:33:57 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > "Cheryl" > wrote:
>
> >> Ugh... I'm done. I just got sad reading some of the posts in this thread
> >> where most of you posting think people who are poor are that way by
> >> choice.
> >> And that we're not supposed to help them. We ARE supposed to help them.
> >> "
> >> ... there but for the grace of God go I ..."
> >
> > Cheryl, I have no issues with helping people. The issues I have are with
> > those that don't try... Those that are on 3rd generation or more of
> > moochers!
> >
> > I know that not all welfare recipients are like that, but the few tend
> > to ruin a good system for the many. :-(
> >
> > I give away a good 10% of my net income to help both family members and
> > the family of a good friend that I pay to do housecleaning I could do
> > myself.
> >
> > I'm not without compassion.
>
> if you're so ****ing compassionate, you shouldn't begrudge the one percent
> of your taxes that go to welfare, even if part of that goes to the 'few'
> 'bad ones.'
>
> your pal,
> blake

The thread has been enlightening.
I'm always up for an education.

Unlike some people around here, I'm willing to change my mind and admit
I may have been in error.
--
Peace! Om

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." --Mark Twain

In article >,
"Mike Pearce" > wrote:

> "Omelet" wrote in message
> news
> > Dave Smith wrote:
> >
> >> What do you do in a case like that. He is a woman who was raised on
> >> welfare, whose college education subsidized and received student
> >> grants,
> >> who had the opportunity to get education and training to help her
> >> find
> >> meaningful employment. But she knew that the system would support
> >> her,
> >> so she intentionally got herself pregnant knowing that she could
> >> stay
> >> home and not have to work. That was the way she was raised, and
> >> there is
> >> a good chance that her kid will grow up with the same mind set.
> >
> > That appears to be the problem in New Orleans...
>
> I would like to see an example as described above happening in New
> Orleans.
>
> -Mike

<cough>

I guess you were not the recipient in your state of a large number of
Katrina refugees...
--
Peace! Om

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." --Mark Twain

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:04:54 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>
> > In article > ,
> > Saerah Gray > wrote:
> >
> >> Omelet > fnord
> >> news > >>
> >>> In article > ,
> >>> Saerah Gray > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Of course, you won't define "refuse to work". Are you aware of how
> >>>> expensive childcare is? If you're making a thousand dollars a month,
> >>>> and half or more goes to childcare, what are you supposed to live on?
> >>>
> >>> That is why work at home programs would be the practical answer to
> >>> that.
> >>
> >> What kind of work do you suggest they do (for the government, right?) at
> >> home?
> >
> > Sewing, clerical work, etc. Now with the internet, even some businesses
> > have people doing computer work from home.
>
> yep, all you have to do is buy a computer and pay for internet access. no
> problem there.
>
> your pal,
> blake

<sigh>

The employer generally pays for the tools, and the training...
--
Peace! Om

"If you don't read the newspaper you are uninformed; if you do read the newspaper you are misinformed." --Mark Twain