I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
bread. While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread machine
truly saves time.

The bread certainly does not rise or bake any faster in a bread machine.

If you use a bread machine, you do not have to knead the bread, and that
saves about 10 minutes, but at least some of that savings is countered by
having to get the bread machine out of and back into storage, unless of
course you have the counter space to keep it set up all the time.

If you make bread by the sponge method, the sponge has to be started the day
before the actual baking (or at least that is the impression that I get from
several of the recipes that I looked at - I have never used that method),
but it isn't like you have to sit out in the kitchen watching the sponge
develop.

Also the impression that I get is that the development of the sponge is what
develops the flavor, and whether the kneading method is by hand or
mechanical in a bread machine or whatever really does not make that much
difference (though opinions seem to vary on this as well), but like with the
straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.

Brian Christiansen

It's a favourite appliance of mine, next to the coffee maker, both in
usefullness and on the counter. I wouldn't be without it.

It takes me about 15 minutes to put the ingredients in, and then just forget
it 'til it's done.
It probably saves a bit on power over a conventional oven, too, because of
volume, but that also is minor.
Time saving? Well, I can only say I don't have to watch or time it for
rising, kneading, or finishing. 'Course I don't get the options to change
those items, either.
I like it.

"Brian Christiansen" > wrote in message
...
>I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
>bread. While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread
>machine truly saves time.
>
> The bread certainly does not rise or bake any faster in a bread machine.
>
> If you use a bread machine, you do not have to knead the bread, and that
> saves about 10 minutes, but at least some of that savings is countered by
> having to get the bread machine out of and back into storage, unless of
> course you have the counter space to keep it set up all the time.
>
> If you make bread by the sponge method, the sponge has to be started the
> day before the actual baking (or at least that is the impression that I
> get from several of the recipes that I looked at - I have never used that
> method), but it isn't like you have to sit out in the kitchen watching the
> sponge develop.
>
> Also the impression that I get is that the development of the sponge is
> what develops the flavor, and whether the kneading method is by hand or
> mechanical in a bread machine or whatever really does not make that much
> difference (though opinions seem to vary on this as well), but like with
> the straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> Brian Christiansen
>

"Brian *Pinhead* Christiansen" wrote:
> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> bread. �While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread machine
> truly saves.

If you need to ask than you truly know nothing about making bread, or
anything else.

In article >,
"Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
(snip)
> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> Brian Christiansen

It gives the perception of saving time, I think.

And there are those folks who get off on using the delay timer so they
can have fresh bread when they wake in the morning.

The machines let people with *absolutely no experience* turn out a loaf
of freshly baked bread. Often, those folks also have *absolutely no
interest* in working dough with their own hands whatsoever.

They may not save time but they save energy of motion. The only thing
you have to do is measure accurately and put the ingredients into the
pan in the right order. No stirring, no wondering if you're doing it
right.

I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
five times to see what the shouting is about. Reminds me that I should
return it to them.

I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller, and here's the link to my appearance
on "A Prairie Home Companion," <http://prairiehome.publicradio.org/
programs/2008/08/30/>

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> In article >,
> "Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
> (snip)
>> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>>
>> Brian Christiansen
>
(snippety)
> I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
> five times to see what the shouting is about. Reminds me that I
> should return it to them.
>
> I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.


My brother got an ABM for Christmas some years ago. The prospect of working
dough by hand was *not* his idea of a good time but he loves (who doesn't?)
the smell of bread baking. Like you, he used it maybe 4-5 times. The
novelty wore off and it became just another thing to store. I think he gave
it away when he moved.

Pssst, Barb, if your daughter hasn't asked for it back after a couple of
years I'm guessing she didn't use it much, either

Jill

On Sep 25, 2:44 am, "Brian Christiansen"
> wrote:
> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> bread. While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread machine
> truly saves time.
>
> The bread certainly does not rise or bake any faster in a bread machine.
>
> If you use a bread machine, you do not have to knead the bread, and that
> saves about 10 minutes, but at least some of that savings is countered by
> having to get the bread machine out of and back into storage, unless of
> course you have the counter space to keep it set up all the time.
>
> If you make bread by the sponge method, the sponge has to be started the day
> before the actual baking (or at least that is the impression that I get from
> several of the recipes that I looked at - I have never used that method),
> but it isn't like you have to sit out in the kitchen watching the sponge
> develop.
>
> Also the impression that I get is that the development of the sponge is what
> develops the flavor, and whether the kneading method is by hand or
> mechanical in a bread machine or whatever really does not make that much
> difference (though opinions seem to vary on this as well), but like with the
> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> Brian Christiansen

For me, it's the saving of money, it's the superior taste and
nutrition, it's the aroma which fills the house, it's never running
out of bread, it's the variety one can enjoy....I've had a machine for
almost 20 years and have never been sorry. Sure, it takes a little
planning, but it's become part of the home routine.
I have two machines now, and there ARE days when both are hummin'.
It takes about two minutes to dump in the ingredients. Hell, I've
waited longer at the a supermkt bakery counter for someone to get me
bread, bag it, slap on a price and not say thank you.

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> In article >,
> "Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
> (snip)
>> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>>
>> Brian Christiansen
>
> It gives the perception of saving time, I think.
>
> And there are those folks who get off on using the delay timer so they
> can have fresh bread when they wake in the morning.
>
> The machines let people with *absolutely no experience* turn out a loaf
> of freshly baked bread. Often, those folks also have *absolutely no
> interest* in working dough with their own hands whatsoever.
>
> They may not save time but they save energy of motion. The only thing
> you have to do is measure accurately and put the ingredients into the
> pan in the right order. No stirring, no wondering if you're doing it
> right.
>
> I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
> five times to see what the shouting is about. Reminds me that I should
> return it to them.
>
> I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.

That wasn't what attracted me to the ABM, I just don't like to beat up
some dough just to get a custom bread. I'm on my second machine, a
Regal, and it works very well. Latest loaf was a dessert bread, banana
nut with cinnamon. We don't eat white bread at all unless it's sourdough
so I make a lot of rye, whole wheat, and multi-grain breads, it's easy
enough with the ABM that I can load up the pan, set the timer, and
forget about it until it chimes. During that approximately 3 hours I can
be prepping for a meal, cleaning house, playing on the computer, etc
without worrying about what stage the bread is in. For me it's
convenience, not time.

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> "Brian Christiansen" wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> It gives the perception of saving time, I think.

Depends what someone means by "that much time"... no, an ABM is not
going to save large blocks of time, but when making one loaf
conventionally compared to the the ABM at least 30 minutes will be
saved, probably more depending on how organized and how much of a slob
one is. Mostly ABMs save clean up because there's virtually no clean
up. ABMs also save signicant energy and allow baking during warm
weather without heating up ones abode. If one is going to bake
multiple loaves and want fancy schmancy configurations than
conventional baking is advantageous, but for one or even two basic
loaves the ABM beats conventional in both time, energy, and
convenience. Comparing an ABM to conventional bread baking is pretty
much the same as comparing an AWM (Automatic Washing Machine) to
washing laundry with a scrub board.

For one or two basic loaves it's a no-brainer, the ABM is the way to
go... when I want one loaf I don't even consider conventional baking,
I tske my ABM from my pantry, place it on the counter, plug it in,
toss in whatever ingredients, press a few touch pads, and in less than
ten minutes I'm baking bread. Sometimes I want a second loaf... soon
as the first is done I start another loaf, already have the
ingredients measured because I did that when I measured the
ingredients for the first loaf. But mostly it's just the one loaf,
and choosing the ABM is definitely a no-brainer. I've been using my
ABM like once a week for more than 15 years, never had a failure yet,
in fact it's always excellent bread.

Two minutes to put ingredients in and a further two minutes to clean pan
once loaf is finished, this is nothing compared to how it would take to
long to measure out ingredients/mix/knead (twice) and then clean up all
the mess you've made plus time spent washing hands xteen times . Bread
machine certainly saves me time !

Steve

Brian Christiansen wrote:
I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> Brian Christiansen
>
>

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
...
"Brian *Pinhead* Christiansen" wrote:
> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> bread. ?While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread
> machine
> truly saves.

If you need to ask than you truly know nothing about making bread, or
anything else.

I happen to make damn good bread.

Brian Christiansen

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...
> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
>> (snip)
>>> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>>>
>>> Brian Christiansen
>>
> (snippety)
>> I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
>> five times to see what the shouting is about. Reminds me that I
>> should return it to them.
>>
>> I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.
>
>
> My brother got an ABM for Christmas some years ago. The prospect of
> working dough by hand was *not* his idea of a good time but he loves (who
> doesn't?) the smell of bread baking. Like you, he used it maybe 4-5
> times. The novelty wore off and it became just another thing to store. I
> think he gave it away when he moved.
>
> Pssst, Barb, if your daughter hasn't asked for it back after a couple of
> years I'm guessing she didn't use it much, either
>
> Jill

Last time Grandson # 1 was up - we made bread in the bread machine - it's
all he could talk about when he got home, I think it also made the 2nd grade
"tell time" (no show). After all HE made the bread.

:-)

Dimitri

On Sep 25, 5:48*am, val189 > wrote:
> On Sep 25, 2:44 am, "Brian Christiansen"
>
>
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> > I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> > bread. *While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread machine
> > truly saves time.
>
> > The bread certainly does not rise or bake any faster in a bread machine..
>
> > If you use a bread machine, you do not have to knead the bread, and that
> > saves about 10 minutes, but at least some of that savings is countered by
> > having to get the bread machine out of and back into storage, unless of
> > course you have the counter space to keep it set up all the time.
>
> > If you make bread by the sponge method, the sponge has to be started the day
> > before the actual baking (or at least that is the impression that I get from
> > several of the recipes that I looked at - I have never used that method),
> > but it isn't like you have to sit out in the kitchen watching the sponge
> > develop.
>
> > Also the impression that I get is that the development of the sponge is what
> > develops the flavor, and whether the kneading method is by hand or
> > mechanical in a bread machine or whatever really does not make that much
> > difference (though opinions seem to vary on this as well), but like with the
> > straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> > Brian Christiansen
>
> For me, it's the saving of money, it's the superior taste and
> nutrition, it's the aroma which fills the house, it's never running
> out of bread, it's the variety one can enjoy....I've had a machine for
> almost 20 years and have never been sorry. *Sure, it takes a little
> planning, but it's become part of the home routine.
> I have two machines now, and there ARE days when both are hummin'.
> * It takes about two minutes to dump in the ingredients. *Hell, I've
> waited longer at the a supermkt bakery counter for someone to get me
> bread, bag it, slap on a price and not say thank you.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I use one because I'm a lousy kneader. It's hard to recognize your
own limitations, but I've come to terms with this one.

I use one because I want to be sure of the ingredients in what I'm
eating. Everytime I would check the ingredients lists on the bread at
the store, they would change. I don't have time or energy to read
fine print ingredient lists on 5 different kinds of bread.

So I measure in the raw materials, let it mix, knead, and time the
rises. I actually take it out before the 3rd rise (I only make whole
wheat), let it rise in a loaf pan, and bake it in the oven. That
eliminates the big hole in the bottom from the kneading paddle.

Probably doesn't save any time. But I get great results and I know
what I'm eating.

Susan B.

On Sep 25, 2:44*am, "Brian Christiansen"
> wrote:
> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> bread. *While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread machine
> truly saves time.
>
> The bread certainly does not rise or bake any faster in a bread machine.
>
> If you use a bread machine, you do not have to knead the bread, and that
> saves about 10 minutes, but at least some of that savings is countered by
> having to get the bread machine out of and back into storage, unless of
> course you have the counter space to keep it set up all the time.
>
> If you make bread by the sponge method, the sponge has to be started the day
> before the actual baking (or at least that is the impression that I get from
> several of the recipes that I looked at - I have never used that method),
> but it isn't like you have to sit out in the kitchen watching the sponge
> develop.
>
> Also the impression that I get is that the development of the sponge is what
> develops the flavor, and whether the kneading method is by hand or
> mechanical in a bread machine or whatever really does not make that much
> difference (though opinions seem to vary on this as well), but like with the
> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> Brian Christiansen

The main usefullness I found with a bread machine was that the results
were consistent, Doesn't really save time, unless you count that you
don't have to be there to punch the dough down once it's doubled, so
it gives me over an hour where I can go and do the shopping or some
yardwork, and don't have to worry that my dough will overproof. also,
I tend to add too much flour when kneading, so the machine saves me
from myself more than anything else.

I only use the dough cycle, punch down the dough, shape it, and put it
in a loaf pan so I have reasonable sized slices for sandwiches. That
means another half hour for the final proof, and 35-40 minutes in the
oven.

maxine in ri

"maxine in ri" > wrote in message
>
> The main usefullness I found with a bread machine was that the results
> were consistent, Doesn't really save time, unless you count that you
> don't have to be there to punch the dough down once it's doubled, so
> it gives me over an hour where I can go and do the shopping or some
> yardwork, and don't have to worry that my dough will overproof. also,
> I tend to add too much flour when kneading, so the machine saves me
> from myself more than anything else.
>
That's the important thing. Quite good bread can be made automatically.
It's not qucker but it saves *your* time allowing you to do other
things. It is remarkable to think that the bread machine was invented in
Japan where bread is not a staple of diet!
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

"sueb" > wrote

>I use one because I'm a lousy kneader. It's hard to recognize your
>own limitations, but I've come to terms with this one.

>I use one because I want to be sure of the ingredients in what I'm
>eating. Everytime I would check the ingredients lists on the bread at
>the store, they would change. I don't have time or energy to read
>fine print ingredient lists on 5 different kinds of bread.

>So I measure in the raw materials, let it mix, knead, and time the
>rises. I actually take it out before the 3rd rise (I only make whole
>wheat), let it rise in a loaf pan, and bake it in the oven. That
>eliminates the big hole in the bottom from the kneading paddle.

>Probably doesn't save any time. But I get great results and I know
>what I'm eating.


This makes sense, and might get me to use my breadmaker more often. What
killed me was the little tiny loaves. If I just used it for kneading, I
could make many little tiny loaves!

"Brian Christiansen" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sheldon" > wrote in message
> ...
> "Brian *Pinhead* Christiansen" wrote:
>> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
>> bread. ?While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread
>> machine
>> truly saves.
>
> If you need to ask than you truly know nothing about making bread, or
> anything else.
>
> I happen to make damn good bread.
>

I bet you do. And if Sheldon is calling you a pinhead, I bet you are a very
intelligent man, too.

"Sheldon" wrote

> For one or two basic loaves it's a no-brainer, the ABM is the way to
> go... when I want one loaf I don't even consider conventional baking,
> I tske my ABM from my pantry, place it on the counter, plug it in,
> toss in whatever ingredients, press a few touch pads, and in less than
> ten minutes I'm baking bread. Sometimes I want a second loaf... soon

Same here but mines on the counter (I use it 2-3 times a week). I use the
dough only mode now and again for yeast rolls etc, but normally 'load and
forget' and have done it many times while in the rec.food cooking chat.
Takes me about 3 mins to measure and load and I'm not exactly rushing about
to do that.

Now, hand breads (when I could do them, cant any more, bad wrists) took alot
longer because you have to prep a counter, lay our wax paper, cleanup after,
etc and then you have to set a timer and go back to check it and punch down
etc.

Breadmaker, hands down for simple ones. Not as much 'fun' perhaps, but
definatly a high use item here (unlike the microwave).

"cybercat" wrote

>>Probably doesn't save any time. But I get great results and I know
>>what I'm eating.

> This makes sense, and might get me to use my breadmaker more often. What
> killed me was the little tiny loaves. If I just used it for kneading, I
> could make many little tiny loaves!

Yup! And no preservatives which are a plus for us (but be ready, they DO
mold faster!). If you want little loaves, real easy. Just let it do the
dough, then after second rise (the machine normally has a dough only setting
so will stop on it's own and beep), separate and bake as normal in the oven.

I like to play with different seasonings and that's easy to do with a
machine. I havent bought bread (except when waiting for my stuff to arrive
from Japan) in 15 years other than the rare specialty loaf.

Another thing, it's cheaper (though not hugely so if you base on cheapest
day old bread outlet bread) than store bought and costs less to run the
breadmachine than the oven (except with little loaves you wont see that).

I have a neighbor who uses her's almost as much as I do. Her's is in the
garage and she runs it right back there on a table with the flour and dry
goods stored right under it in a bunch of plastic containers. Works for
her!

"l, not -l" wrote

> I recieved a Breadman bread machine for Christmas in 1993; since then, I
> have made well over a thousand loaves in it. I have never made bread by
> any

I've worn out 2 units between then and now but they were not breadman
brands. This time I got the Breadman Ultimate Plus. Weak LED but that's
mostly because of it being on a tall counter and I'm 5"1' tall ;-)

> If you like making bread by hand, do so and don't worry about a bread
> machine.

Agreed.

> If you have a physical issue that makes kneading difficult or
> impossible, a bread machine might be a good choice - then again, a
> KitchenAid might be also.

Had I started that way, I'd have been happy enough with a kitchenAide but I
don't have one and anything it does, I have something else for now.

Sheldon wrote:
>
> For one or two basic loaves it's a no-brainer, the ABM is the way to
> go... when I want one loaf I don't even consider conventional baking,

My mom uses the ABM to make the dough, then bakes
it in a conventional oven. Saves the labor of making
the dough, but doesn't have that weird loaf shape that
you get if you let the ABM bake it too.

On Sep 25, 6:44*pm, "Brian Christiansen"
> wrote:
> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> bread. *While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread machine
> truly saves time.
>
> The bread certainly does not rise or bake any faster in a bread machine.
>
> If you use a bread machine, you do not have to knead the bread, and that
> saves about 10 minutes, but at least some of that savings is countered by
> having to get the bread machine out of and back into storage, unless of
> course you have the counter space to keep it set up all the time.
>
> If you make bread by the sponge method, the sponge has to be started the day
> before the actual baking (or at least that is the impression that I get from
> several of the recipes that I looked at - I have never used that method),
> but it isn't like you have to sit out in the kitchen watching the sponge
> develop.
>
> Also the impression that I get is that the development of the sponge is what
> develops the flavor, and whether the kneading method is by hand or
> mechanical in a bread machine or whatever really does not make that much
> difference (though opinions seem to vary on this as well), but like with the
> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> Brian Christiansen

Speaking of breadmakers.....
Recently my loaves have come out with a concave top rather than a
raised arch (if you can picture what I mean).
The bread itself is fine, taste, size and texture wise.
The troubleshooting page in the recipe book speks of too much this or
not enough that yet I followed the ingredients to the letter.
The loaves used to be perfect and I haven't changed a thing.
Can anyone think of something else that may cause this?

On Sep 25, 11:51�am, "Brian Christiansen"
> wrote:
> "Sheldon" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> "Brian *Pinhead* Christiansen" wrote:
> > I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> > bread. ?While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread
> > machine
> > truly saves.
>
> If you need to ask than you truly know nothing about making bread, or
> anything else.
>
> I happen to make damn good bread.

After carefully rereading your post and giving it due consideration
I've come to the conclusion that you're not believeable... but so
what, I knew immediately, even before opening your post that you're a
dope... anyone who thinks "that much time" is meaningful in any regard
is a PINHEAD!

On Sep 25, 2:50�pm, "cyber****" > wrote:
> "Brian Christiansen" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > "Sheldon" > wrote in message
> ....
> > "Brian *Pinhead* Christiansen" wrote:
> >> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> >> bread. ?While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread
> >> machine
> >> truly saves.
>
> > If you need to ask than you truly know nothing about making bread, or
> > anything else.
>
> > I happen to make damn good bread.
>
> I bet you do. And if Sheldon is calling you a pinhead, I bet you are a very
> intelligent man, too.

How would you know intelligent, you low IQ ****... and how would you
know what's a man, you think just because you're a **** that makes you
a woman, NOT!

Sheldon wrote:

On Sep 25, 2:50?pm, "cyber****" > wrote:
> "Brian Christiansen" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > "Sheldon" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Brian *Pinhead* Christiansen" wrote:
> >> I recently put together a toastmasters group presentation about making
> >> bread. ?While I was puting it together I got to wondering if a bread
> >> machine
> >> truly saves.
>
> > If you need to ask than you truly know nothing about making bread, or
> > anything else.
>
> > I happen to make damn good bread.
>
> I bet you do. And if Sheldon is calling you a pinhead, I bet you are a
very
> intelligent man, too.

How would you know intelligent, you low IQ ****... and how would you
know what's a man, you think just because you're a **** that makes you
a woman, NOT!
--------------

GM replies:

And that is a most succinct description of "The cyberWRETCH
Experience"...but how to turn it into a Disneyland attraction...mayhaps turn
the "Haunted Mansion" into the "Haunted Ho' House Mansion...???


--
Best
Greg

" I find Greg Morrow lowbrow, witless, and obnoxious. For him to claim that
we are some
kind of comedy team turns my stomach."
- "cybercat" to me on rec.food.cooking

On Sep 25, 12:50*pm, "cshenk" > wrote:
> "cybercat" wrote
>
> >>Probably doesn't save any time. *But I get great results and I know
> >>what I'm eating.
> > This makes sense, and might get me to use my breadmaker more often. What
> > killed me was the little tiny loaves. If I just used it for kneading, I
> > could make many little tiny loaves!
>
> Yup! *And no preservatives which are a plus for us (but be ready, they DO
> mold faster!). *If you want little loaves, real easy. *Just let it do the
> dough, then after second rise (the machine normally has a dough only setting
> so will stop on it's own and beep), separate and bake as normal in the oven.
>
> I like to play with different seasonings and that's easy to do with a
> machine. *I havent bought bread (except when waiting for my stuff to arrive
> from Japan) in 15 years other than the rare specialty loaf.
>
> Another thing, it's cheaper (though not hugely so if you base on cheapest
> day old bread outlet bread) than store bought and costs less to run the
> breadmachine than the oven (except with little loaves you wont see that).
>
> I have a neighbor who uses her's almost as much as I do. *Her's is in the
> garage and she runs it right back there on a table with the flour and dry
> goods stored right under it in a bunch of plastic containers. *Works for
> her!

I make 1.5# loaves - not tiny. I need to start making 1# loaves.
My ABM makes up to 2# loaves.

loaves is a weird word.....

Susan B.

"sueb" > wrote
>I make 1.5# loaves - not tiny. I need to start making 1# loaves.
>My ABM makes up to 2# loaves.

I should have gotten a bread maker that makes a bigger loaf.

"cyberbubblebutt" wrote:
> "sueb" wrote
>
> >I make 1.5# loaves - not tiny. �I need to start making 1# loaves..
> >My ABM makes up to 2# loaves.
>
> I should have gotten a bread maker that makes a bigger loaf.

Why, your butt cheeks ain't huge enough...

sueb wrote:
[bread machines]
> I use one because I'm a lousy kneader. It's hard to recognize your
> own limitations, but I've come to terms with this one.

Same here. I don't always use it, but I make 3-5 loaves a week with
mine, and have for years. When this one breaks down, I'll buy another
one. (I bake in the oven, but the kneading is worth it to me.)

Serene

--
"I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at
the bottom of the garden." -- Richard Dawkins

In article >,
"jmcquown" > wrote:

> Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> > In article >,
> > "Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
> > (snip)
> >> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
> >>
> >> Brian Christiansen
> >
> (snippety)
> > I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
> > five times to see what the shouting is about. Reminds me that I
> > should return it to them.
> >
> > I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.
>
>
> My brother got an ABM for Christmas some years ago. The prospect of working
> dough by hand was *not* his idea of a good time but he loves (who doesn't?)
> the smell of bread baking. Like you, he used it maybe 4-5 times. The
> novelty wore off and it became just another thing to store. I think he gave
> it away when he moved.
>
> Pssst, Barb, if your daughter hasn't asked for it back after a couple of
> years I'm guessing she didn't use it much, either
>
> Jill

Right. WhatshisnamehisnameisJamie likes toys. And then, like most
children, he tires of his toys and wants new ones. Beck's content to
let it take up space in my house rather than in theirs.
--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
http://web.mac.com/barbschaller,

Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> "Brian Christiansen" wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> > Brian Christiansen
>
> It gives the perception of saving time, I think.

Nope, ABMs actually save significant time, requires at least half the
time of conventional bread baking... actually a lot more time when
considering all one needs do is measure out ingrediants, dump em in
and press a button or two... no time spent kneading (2X), no waiting
around for the next step, no oven to preheast, no witing around to
pull bread out of the oven (my ABM has a cool down fan), and virtually
no clean up. However long it takes to complete a loaf of bread
manually/conventually from beginning to end the ABM needs like ten
minutes of ones time, probably less.

> �And there are those folks who get off on using the delay timer so they
> can have fresh bread when they wake in the morning.

That they "get off" is a disingenuous put down remark if I ever heard
one. I very rarely use the delay feature becsaue I'm retired adn no
longer live by a clock but it's a good option for those who enjoy the
convenience... works just like auto coffee makers... many use that
feature so coffee is ready when they arise in the AM, lot's of folks
who need to go to work and so need to keep to a schedual enjoy the
extra time saved by not having to futz with setting up the coffee in
the morning and then wait for it to brew... perhaps you wouldn't mind
setting your alarm clock 20 minutes earlier, because you still use a
stove top perculator, and a stove top bread toaster... you probably
can't abide automatic clothes washers/dryers, still washing your
gotkis in the kitchen sink with a scrub board and hanging them outside
on a line for all the neighbors to see your undies are actually circus
tarps all stitched together! hehe

> The machines let people with *absolutely no experience* turn out a loaf
> of freshly baked bread. �

This is absolute nonsense. Baking bread with an ABM requires as much
expertise as by conventional methods, in fact more can go wrong with
ABM baking and it's less forgiving. Anyone who searches the archives
will note that there are as many and the same inqueries for ABMs as
for conventional bread baking.

Often, those folks also have *absolutely no
> interest* in working dough with their own hands whatsoever.

More nonsense... most folks use a stand mixer for kneading... read the
archieves. But that doesn't mean they can't hand knead, all it means
is that they enjoy the convenience and perhaps they have some
disability. The ABM is an excellent appliance for those with
disabilities.


> They may not save time but they save energy of motion. �The only thing
> you have to do is measure accurately and put the ingredients into the
> pan in the right order. �No stirring, no wondering if you're doing it
> right.

Bullshit, read the achieves... you need to know exactly the same yeast
dough science for using an ABM successfully.

> I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
> five times to see what the shouting is about. �Reminds me that I should
> return it to them. �
>
> I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.

Aside from time and convenience the ABM also saves a great deal of
labor and a tremendous dollar amount on energy consumption.

The only thing an ABM doesn't do is form up fancy schmancy loaves...
but of those hand formed I've seen displayed here no none excels in
that area either... in fact their loaves are so fercocktah looking
they'd do better to use an ABM. And even with the ABM a certain
amount of thought is required for anticipating loaf configuration,
otherwise there wouldn't be all those inqueries about hockey pucks and
spill overs... not to mention collapsing, lousy crumb, miserable
crust, and the plethora of dilemmas the same as occur with
conventional/manual bread baking. Barb, I'm surprised at you,
actually shocked... but I don't know why I should be, not after seeing
your miserable (failed) attempt at dago eggplant. The same yeast
dough knowlege is required whether with an ABM, a modern electric/gas
oven, a wood heated beehive clay oven, a tandoori, or even baking on
flat hot stones. Hey, Barb, ya know you can make better jam in an
ABM, and you don't have to know anything! <G>

On Sep 26, 9:37*am, Sheldon > wrote:

> The only thing an ABM doesn't do is form up fancy schmancy loaves...
> but of those hand formed I've seen displayed here no none excels in
> that area either... in fact their loaves are so fercocktah looking
> they'd do better to use an ABM. *And even with the ABM a certain
> amount of thought is required for anticipating loaf configuration,
> otherwise there wouldn't be all those inqueries about hockey pucks and
> spill overs... not to mention collapsing, lousy crumb, miserable
> crust, and the plethora of dilemmas the same as occur with
> conventional/manual bread baking. *

Most of those problems are due to imprecise measurement. I oughtta
know<g>.
You measure correctly, follow the formula/recipe, and have good yeast,
you got a good loaf of bread.

My latest loaves have been white bread (for the kidlet) and rice bread
(white bread with added cooked rice. Not to be made again. Adding
rice to bread is dumb.)

maxine in ri

On Sep 26, 9:43�am, maxine in ri > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 9:37�am, Sheldon > wrote:
>
> > The only thing an ABM doesn't do is form up fancy schmancy loaves...
> > but of those hand formed I've seen displayed here no none excels in
> > that area either... in fact their loaves are so fercocktah looking
> > they'd do better to use an ABM. �And even with the ABM a certain
> > amount of thought is required for anticipating loaf configuration,
> > otherwise there wouldn't be all those inqueries about hockey pucks and
> > spill overs... not to mention collapsing, lousy crumb, miserable
> > crust, and the plethora of dilemmas the same as occur with
> > conventional/manual bread baking. �
>
> Most of those problems are due to imprecise measurement.

That's a big fat myth... the *least* important factor in baking
(especially yeast bread) is precise measurement... professional bakers
do not measure accurately... they always correct by feel, sight, and
sound. In a professional bakery anyone gets caught with measuring
spoons it's immediate dismissal.

"sueb" wrote

> I make 1.5# loaves - not tiny. I need to start making 1# loaves.
> My ABM makes up to 2# loaves.

I make almost always the 2# size but a few recipes I have, don't easily
adapt and were devised for the 1.5lb sorts.

"cybercat" wrote
> "sueb" wrote

>>I make 1.5# loaves - not tiny. I need to start making 1# loaves.
>>My ABM makes up to 2# loaves.

> I should have gotten a bread maker that makes a bigger loaf.

You have the 1.5lb machine? My first one was that size. They work well
enough and take less counterspace. If you plan to mostly make dough in it,
it will handle a 2lb loaf recipe of just dough most likely.

Most of my 2lb loaf types make about 14 slices (I have a plastic model bread
slicer so you just run the knife through the grooves), so 7 samwiches or I
might use the thicker slice (2 grooves) and make a texas toast sort of cut
for an open face samwich. You get about 10 regular slices off the 1.5lb
loaf.

"Sheldon" wrote

> Nope, ABMs actually save significant time, requires at least half the
(snip)
> However long it takes to complete a loaf of bread
> manually/conventually from beginning to end the ABM needs like ten
> minutes of ones time, probably less.

I can think of a few recioes that take about 10 minutes, but those have me
chopping apples or grating cheese etc. I'm probably faster than average
though as I do it so often.

>> And there are those folks who get off on using the delay timer so they
>> can have fresh bread when they wake in the morning.

> That they "get off" is a disingenuous put down remark if I ever heard
> one. I very rarely use the delay feature becsaue I'm retired adn no
> longer live by a clock but it's a good option for those who enjoy the
> convenience... works just like auto coffee makers... many use that

Oddly, I've never used that feature in all my years of ABM's. Nothing
'wrong' with it, just never done it.

>> The machines let people with *absolutely no experience* turn out a loaf
>> of freshly baked bread.

> This is absolute nonsense. Baking bread with an ABM requires as much
> expertise as by conventional methods, in fact more can go wrong with
> ABM baking and it's less forgiving.

True and false at the same time. It's a bit of a different skill set, to
hand kneed vs getting the ingredient set right the first time (you have no
adjustment time really with a breadmaker).

>> Often, those folks also have *absolutely no
>> interest* in working dough with their own hands whatsoever.

>More nonsense... most folks use a stand mixer for kneading... read the
>archieves. But that doesn't mean they can't hand knead, all it means
>is that they enjoy the convenience and perhaps they have some
>disability. The ABM is an excellent appliance for those with
>disabilities.

That second person would be like me. Herniated C4 disc plus a T4 and a T5
disc. The one affects my right arm fairly strongly and I can not kneed
dough. The other 2 make bending down to load an oven, somewhat problematic
some days. (not looking for pity, just validating there are reasons for the
machine that the OP may not have considered). I'll add I'm not all that
fascinated with handworking a ball of stuff into dough either.

>Aside from time and convenience the ABM also saves a great deal of
>labor and a tremendous dollar amount on energy consumption.

Definately. Over time you may notice (or have noticed) that my posts tend
to be crockpot and breadmaker heavy. Both are energy efficient items when
compared to the alternative cooking (oven or long stovetop) one would use if
not having them.

> The only thing an ABM doesn't do is form up fancy schmancy loaves...

But you can use one to assist with that. I do it sometimes. Dough only
mode, then take it out and form it. Which reminds me, I havent made soft
pretzels in a bit! Maybe I'll do that today. Don likes the soft ones hot
from the oven. I make each one a bit different with an eggwash to hold the
spices then using the 2lb dough only setting, get some 15-20 (depends on how
big I want them) different ones.

Last time, I did a unique recipe for the dough with some minced black olives
and Don was really fond of it. Hey, I like to play with my food! I brushed
2 each of them lightly with various sauces (tomato, worstershire, bannana
chile sauce, sesame oil cut with olive oil, butter, honey, crushed papaya
mixed with papaya juice, and coconut milk made thick) then sprinkled with
whatever seemed to match making 16 different ones out of that batch. The
olives in the dough lent well to several of them but were a detraction for
the honey and fruit based ones, though oddly seemed to work with the coconut
milk. Win some, lose some.

"Sheldon" wrote

> That's a big fat myth... the *least* important factor in baking
> (especially yeast bread) is precise measurement...

Oh I dunno, It doesnt have to be exact, but for ABM's it needs to be pretty
close yet one must know how to adjust for the dampness etc.

"cshenk" wrote:
> "Sheldon" wrote
>
> > Nope, ABMs actually save significant time,
> > requires at least half the
> (snip)
> > However long it takes to complete a loaf of
> > bread manually/conventually from beginning
> > to end the ABM needs like ten minutes of ones
> > time, probably less.
>
> I can think of a few recioes that take about 10
> > minutes, but those have me chopping apples or
> > grating cheese etc. �

Those type of prep tasks have nothing to do with which method one uses
to bake bread, they require the same time/effort regardless. Btw, for
bread partially
hydrated dehy apples work best... fresh apples turn
to mush.

Hardly anyone in a home kitchen is capable of baking more than two
loaves at once... and you can't fairly compare using multiple ovens
unless you allow for multiple ABMS, so the ABM always wins. And there
do exist ABMs capable of baking two loaves simultaneously, now that
really saves time over conventional baking. With conventional baking
there's a lot of time and personal involvement spent with handling
dough, with the ABM dough handling is zero. The main thrust of the
ABM is not about kneading dough, the ABM is designed to eliminate all
the personal envolvement over the entire bread baking period, say a
four hour period... when baking bread conventionally you're trapped at
home and need to keep aware of the clock for the entire time until the
bread comes out of the oven. With the ABM all that's required is about
ten minutes to get it going, then if desired you can even go off for a
weekend and upon returning your bread will be there perfectly baked
waiting for you. Actually all that's really needed is like 2-3
minutes to get the ABM going, but I still proof my yeast anyway. If
one likes being personally intimately involved with bread making every
step of the way that's perfectly fine, I often do that myself, but
when considering just the time element ("that much time") the ABM
always wins, big time.

On Sep 25, 8:27*am, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote:
> In article >,
> *"Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
> (snip)
>
> > straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> > Brian Christiansen
>
> It gives the perception of saving time, I think.
>
> *And there are those folks who get off on using the delay timer so they
> can have fresh bread when they wake in the morning.
>
> The machines let people with *absolutely no experience* turn out a loaf
> of freshly baked bread. *Often, those folks also have *absolutely no
> interest* in working dough with their own hands whatsoever. *
>
> They may not save time but they save energy of motion. *The only thing
> you have to do is measure accurately and put the ingredients into the
> pan in the right order. *No stirring, no wondering if you're doing it
> right.
>
> I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
> five times to see what the shouting is about. *Reminds me that I should
> return it to them. *
>
> I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian.


My impression, not having a bread machine, is that while they make
okay bread, I have not seen one that can beat a conventionally made
loaf of bread.

They may save some time although I have estimated that it takes me ~10
minutes actual working time from start to finish to make 2-3 loaves of
plain white or whole wheat bread. The only thing is that one needs to
be around occasionally to knead the bread, toss it in the oven, etc.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Sep 26, 8:54*am, Melba's Jammin' >
wrote:
> In article >,
>
>
>
>
>
> *"jmcquown" > wrote:
> > Melba's Jammin' wrote:
> > > In article >,
> > > "Brian Christiansen" > wrote:
> > > (snip)
> > >> straight dough method, I dont think it really saves that much time.
>
> > >> Brian Christiansen
>
> > (snippety)
> > > I borrowed my daughter's a couple years ago and used it maybe four or
> > > five times to see what the shouting is about. *Reminds me that I
> > > should return it to them.
>
> > > I'm not sure that their attractiveness is based on saving time, Brian..
>
> > My brother got an ABM for Christmas some years ago. *The prospect of working
> > dough by hand was *not* his idea of a good time but he loves (who doesn't?)
> > the smell of bread baking. *Like you, he used it maybe 4-5 times. *The
> > novelty wore off and it became just another thing to store. *I think he gave
> > it away when he moved.
>
> > Pssst, Barb, if your daughter hasn't asked for it back after a couple of
> > years I'm guessing she didn't use it much, either
>
> > Jill
>
> Right. *WhatshisnamehisnameisJamie likes toys. * And then, like most
> children, he tires of his toys and wants new ones. *Beck's content to
> let it take up space in my house rather than in theirs.

Garage sale?

John Kane Kingston ON Canada

On Sep 26, 9:53*am, Sheldon > wrote:
> On Sep 26, 9:43 am, maxine in ri > wrote:
>
> > On Sep 26, 9:37 am, Sheldon > wrote:
>
> > > The only thing an ABM doesn't do is form up fancy schmancy loaves...
> > > but of those hand formed I've seen displayed here no none excels in
> > > that area either... in fact their loaves are so fercocktah looking
> > > they'd do better to use an ABM. And even with the ABM a certain
> > > amount of thought is required for anticipating loaf configuration,
> > > otherwise there wouldn't be all those inqueries about hockey pucks and
> > > spill overs... not to mention collapsing, lousy crumb, miserable
> > > crust, and the plethora of dilemmas the same as occur with
> > > conventional/manual bread baking.
>
> > Most of those problems are due to imprecise measurement.
>
> That's a big fat myth... the *least* important factor in baking
> (especially yeast bread) is precise measurement... professional bakers
> do not measure accurately... they always correct by feel, sight, and
> sound. *In a professional bakery anyone gets caught with measuring
> spoons it's immediate dismissal.

Strange the professional baker I worked with insisted on measuring
just about everything. When he did some cooking he wored by sight etc
but not for baking.

Of course he'd never use a measuing spoon. Everything was done by
weight. Joseph Amendola's baking book is a good example of this.

John Kane Kingston ON Canada