sf wrote:

> The only one I could remotely connect with was Princess Diana. She
> grew up in front of us. We watched her grow into a woman with a
> mission as we watched her marriage fail. She represented the common
> person, so to speak - so I can see why she had such a huge memorial.


Speaking as one whose figurehead Head of State is the Queen, I really
didn't get the Lady Di thing, other than perhaps some sort of passive
aggressive comment against the inbred clan that inherits the crown.
Thank goodness the Royals have no real power but just sort of sit there
are representatives of past glories and traditional values.

When I was in Paris in 2001 I happened to come across the monument to
Lady Di. It was right around the corner from my hotel, and a block or so
from the tunnel where she was killed. It was a nice enough monument,
but it was terribly defaced by comments in permanent marker or paper
messages pasted on. It had become an eyesore.


An even sorrier site was Jim Morrison's grave in the Pere LaChaisse
cemetery. I took my son there in 1993 when he was 15 and went again
with my wife in 2001. They have to post a guard on it to stop people
from defacing it and nearby tombs. There were all sorts of young people
moping around, most of them too much too young to have been around when
he died. I don't understand how someone can grieve for someone who they
never knew, except perhaps that it makes them feel cool about themselves.

Dan Abel wrote:

>>> No, it isn't normal. And normal, mentally healthy adult children all
>>> recognize that their parents aren't immortal and they'll someday have to
>>> deal with the issues surrounding their passing.
>
> "Normal" isn't a really good word here. I've posted before, and will
> again now, that the average grief period is 18 months. That's an
> average. That means that some people get over it sooner and some later.
> What exactly that means depends on the individual and the circumstances.


It's a hard one to understand. We are all different. Some of us have
seen more death than others. The more you see of it, the less it affects
you. The first person close to me to die was my best friend. I was only
15 and I was devastated. A few months later another good friend was
killed. About a year later my grandfather died. Over the years I lost
more friends and relatives. I came to understand that a lot of mourning
is more about us than about the people we lost. It's messed up.

Then there is the way people deal with their remembrances. I came very
close to not going to my mother's memorial service because of a
disagreement with two of my brothers. We had mutually agreed to postpone
the service because one brother was in the process of moving back this
way and another was leaving for a three week trip to Europe. We knew
that Mom would never have wanted someone to cancel a vacation on her
account. The thing that ****ed me off was that, somewhere along the
line, the two brothers had decided that the service was to be family
only, and one of them was especially upset when I mentioned that some
of my son's friends wanted to come. I have no idea where they got the
idea that our mother would not want our friends or her friends at a
memorial service for her.

My wife eventually talked me into going. Our son had come a long way to
attend the service and he didn't need the hassles of going to it alone.
I also realized that the rest of the family would never have
appreciated my reasons. Then I made the mistake of going down to the
cemetery to visit the grave with those two brothers and one one them
made a comment about my not bringing flowers. Well screw him. He was the
one who had to be told to get his ass down to the hospital to see her
because she was likely to die and so what if he had to take a vacation
day to do it. He was the one who, a few years earlier, was the only one
who never helped out when we had to give her 24-7 coverage for two
months. He was the one who was adamantly opposed to anyone else
attending the service.

These are the same two brothers who went with me to Denmark to bury our
father's ashes. I have been back to Denmark twice to visit Dad's graves,
but both have said that they are unlikely to do that.

I am not going to get into a big argument over it with them now, but I
won't be making any more group visits. They can show their respects
anyway they want, but they won't be telling me what is appropriate and
what isn't.

sf wrote:

>
>> what did she actually *do*, besides marrying really well?
>>
> Wasn't she the one who made all sorts of trips to third world
> countries trying to bring the world's attention to their problems?
>

Sure. She made appearances. She was a poster girl who was sent at the
expense of charitable organizations to have her picture taken.

Michael "Dog3" wrote:
> Goomba > :
> in rec.food.cooking
>
>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> I can understand grieving when a family member or close friend is
>>> lost, expecially when it is sudden and young. What I don't understand
>>> is the reaction of some people when a celebrity dies. People come
>>> from all over and put flowers on a pile with other flowers people
>>> brought. Seems like that money (and time) could be put to better
>>> use. Maybe a shrink has some answers, but I think it is people
>>> making up for their own shortcomings.
>>>
>>>
>
> Like Ed, I'll never understand people's reaction to a celebrity. Perhaps
> the celebrity touched their lives in some untangible way?
>
> Michael
>
>

Or that by showing grief they identify with the celebrity and achieve
their 15 seconds of fame?

I can't imagine that level of grief for someone I only knew onscreen.

gloria p

Michael "Dog3" wrote:
> Nina >

>> Some people need memorials and things on which to focus the grief. To
>> keep some aspect of that person from being forgotten. I don't have a
>> problem with that.
>
> I don't have a problem with it. I just don't understand it. For me it
> would be keeping the wound open (for lack of a better phrase) instead of
> letting it heal. That's just me though.
>
> Michael

I find this new trend of putting decorative displays on car windows with
the named of the deceased and date of birth/death with some curlycues as
if a fancy monogram or something to be a sad display of "grief" and
tacky as all get out. What the hell is *that* about....?

sf wrote:

>> I see them in other places around where I live, out in the country.
>> White crosses and plastic flowers. Sometimes I stop. The names are
>> often Spanish, and sometimes there is a date. Sometimes the white paint
>> is fresh.
>
> It's probably a cultural thing. IMO, at the very least they are good
> warnings to other drivers that we are all mortal and please drive
> safely.

I am more inclined to the erection of monuments to stupidly..... At this
spot on Jan.4 2009, a drunk driver was speeding, lost control and
crashed into a tree killing himself and crippling his passenger or a
guy who was driving carelessly crossed a double line to pass another
vehicle and caused a head-on collision that killed him and injured three
others. Memorials of remembrance should only be reserved for those who
were the innocent victims.

Goomba wrote:

> I find this new trend of putting decorative displays on car windows with
> the named of the deceased and date of birth/death with some curlycues as
> if a fancy monogram or something to be a sad display of "grief" and
> tacky as all get out. What the hell is *that* about....?

There are a lot of people out there who capitalize on the guilt trips
that grief can lead to. Just look at the money that people blow on
caskets and gravestones.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:49:36 -0500, Nina >
wrote:

>I think... I don't know, and I know this is really off-topic, but it's
>something I'm right in the middle of at the moment, so it's close to
>my heart... that there's a point in grief where healing seems like
>forgetting, and that seems like something far worse than just enduring
>the pain.
>
>I am kind of hoping that there's some point where that no longer feels
>like the right thing to do, though.

Oh, Nina... I'm so sorry. Who is it? Parent, husband, child?


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 01:58:59 -0600, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >I have a good friend who's father died of a sudden heart attack a few
> >years back.
> >
> >About one year later, her mother committed suicide... with her there
> >visiting her. Talk about a selfish act! She blew her brains out in her
> >bedroom with her daughter there to hear it, and clean up the mess. :-(
>
> Wow, that's horrible! People who are that depressed seldom think
> about the consequences of their actions.

Indeed...
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 08:14:04 -0600, Kathleen wrote:
>
> > sf wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 00:11:26 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I can understand grieving when a family member or close friend is lost,
> >>>expecially when it is sudden and young. What I don't understand is the
> >>>reaction of some people when a celebrity dies. People come from all over
> >>>and
> >>>put flowers on a pile with other flowers people brought. Seems like that
> >>>money (and time) could be put to better use. Maybe a shrink has some
> >>>answers, but I think it is people making up for their own shortcomings.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yeah, and making a special trip is really creepy.
> >>
> >> The only one I could remotely connect with was Princess Diana. She
> >> grew up in front of us. We watched her grow into a woman with a
> >> mission as we watched her marriage fail. She represented the common
> >> person, so to speak - so I can see why she had such a huge memorial.
> >> OTOH, I have no idea why Elvis or whatever Hollywood celebrity du jour
> >> is memorialized.
> >>
> >
> > What I remember most about Diana was her courage. She wouldn't tolerate
> > staying in a dead, loveless marriage, not even to be the Queen of
> > England (literally).
>
> i don't think she missed too many meals by being 'courageous' in that way.
> it's not like she was out on the street.
>
> your pal,
> blake

But she was a bulemic...
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article
>,
Dan Abel > wrote:

> I suffered a permanent personality change when our son died. It was 27
> years ago. It's not a big deal, I just have a little different sense of
> humor. I still have a sense of humor, but some things just aren't funny
> any more. I'll hear a joke, and it just leaves me cold.

Losing a child is very, very hard on parents.
My parents lost 2 out of 4, so I know very well what it does to people.

Dad still cries sometimes, and I lost my older sister when I was 8.

That was 38 years ago...

I don't think mom ever got over it. She was driving.
Canidisse was 10.

Karen died before I was born of SIDS at 4 months of age. Dad still
blames himself for it.

How did your son die, if you feel like talking about it?
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article > ,
Dave Smith > wrote:

> I am not going to get into a big argument over it with them now, but I
> won't be making any more group visits. They can show their respects
> anyway they want, but they won't be telling me what is appropriate and
> what isn't.

Good grief Dave! And I thought _I_ had issues!

As for graves, dad's parents ashes are here in the house, still in their
boxes from the funeral parlor. I need to get over to Hobby Lobby and
get him a trunk for them.

Mom's ashes are here in my bedroom in a brass bound memory trunk. The
trunk also contains a small collection of her favorite things, and the
sympathy cards, which I will eventually burn...

My two sister's graves are in Colorado. They don't get visited often...

I like cremation. It's tidier and easier to deal with, and a lot less
expensive. I see no point in spending thousands on someone once they
are dead.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article >,
Michelle Steiner > wrote:

> In article >,
> sf > wrote:
>
> > >ObDirtyDancing: This was a movie, and Lou saw it on stage recently.
> > > The main character, who was an attractive young lady, was named
> > >"Baby".
> >
> > Again, cultural.... I know a 40+ year old woman who is still called
> > Baby by family and family friends.
>
> My grandparents and their siblings called my father "Sonny" all their
> lives.

We still call my sister "Sunny". She's 36. :-)

Nothing wrong with nick names.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

Omelet wrote:
> In article > ,
> Dave Smith > wrote:
>
>> I am not going to get into a big argument over it with them now, but I
>> won't be making any more group visits. They can show their respects
>> anyway they want, but they won't be telling me what is appropriate and
>> what isn't.
>
> Good grief Dave! And I thought _I_ had issues!

:-) Well I did say that different people have different ways of dealing
with things. I could have made a big deal of it at the time, but it
would have caused a huge family rift that probably would never have been
healed. I just had to make notes for future.

> As for graves, dad's parents ashes are here in the house, still in their
> boxes from the funeral parlor. I need to get over to Hobby Lobby and
> get him a trunk for them.

My mother's ashes are in my brother's plot in Niagara on the Lake. It is
a nice old Anglican church in the country and full of old Loyalist
graves from the early 1800s, and she had UEL roots. My father's ashes
are in a war graves site in Svino, Denmark, a very peaceful place. The
local people are very proud to have him there and take wonderful care of
the grave. When I went over to Estonia and Sweden last summer we stopped
in Denmark for a few days and I went down to the cemetery to pay my
respects.


> Mom's ashes are here in my bedroom in a brass bound memory trunk. The
> trunk also contains a small collection of her favorite things, and the
> sympathy cards, which I will eventually burn...
>
> My two sister's graves are in Colorado. They don't get visited often...

It might be worth a trip. Colorado is beautiful, so you have added
incentive to go there for a vacation.


> I like cremation. It's tidier and easier to deal with, and a lot less
> expensive. I see no point in spending thousands on someone once they
> are dead.

The cost of embalming and coffins is appalling. There is really no need
for it. Ashes in an urn and a little marker. My wife's family has a plot
in a nice cemetery in Toronto that has her maternal grandparents along
with urns of ashes for her mother, father, brother, an aunt and a
cousin. We make a trip in every year on Remembrance day and she does her
routine and I clean up the stones.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 17:21:29 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>sf wrote:
>>
>> It's probably a cultural thing. IMO, at the very least they are good
>> warnings to other drivers that we are all mortal and please drive
>> safely.
>
>I am more inclined to the erection of monuments to stupidly..... At this
>spot on Jan.4 2009, a drunk driver was speeding, lost control and
>crashed into a tree killing himself and crippling his passenger or a
>guy who was driving carelessly crossed a double line to pass another
>vehicle and caused a head-on collision that killed him and injured three
>others. Memorials of remembrance should only be reserved for those who
>were the innocent victims.

That's cold, Dave. Even the worst of the worst has someone who loves
them. Besides you'd cause accidents with everyone trying to read the
fine print on the monument as they drive past.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:14:32 -0500, Nina >
wrote:

>On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 14:42:36 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:49:36 -0500, Nina >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>I think... I don't know, and I know this is really off-topic, but it's
>>>something I'm right in the middle of at the moment, so it's close to
>>>my heart... that there's a point in grief where healing seems like
>>>forgetting, and that seems like something far worse than just enduring
>>>the pain.
>>>
>>>I am kind of hoping that there's some point where that no longer feels
>>>like the right thing to do, though.
>>
>>Oh, Nina... I'm so sorry. Who is it? Parent, husband, child?
>
>Mother. It's been nearly six months. I know that at some point it
>will get better, but it's just not yet.
>

My mom died two years ago. I wasn't devastated, but I get weepy every
now and then.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

In article >,
"Michael \"Dog3\"" > wrote:

> Nina >
> : in rec.food.cooking
>
> >
> > Sometimes grief is fresh.
> >
> > It doesn't have a timetable, and one of the things that (IMO, anyway)
> > is worst about our society is the need to "get over it", to be done
> > with grief because it makes other people uncomfortable.
> >
> > Some people need memorials and things on which to focus the grief. To
> > keep some aspect of that person from being forgotten. I don't have a
> > problem with that.
>
> I don't have a problem with it. I just don't understand it. For me it
> would be keeping the wound open (for lack of a better phrase) instead of
> letting it heal. That's just me though.
>
> Michael

I personally find road side memorials offensive.
But, that's just me.

I was glad to see them outlawed locally.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article >,
Nina > wrote:

> On 04 Jan 2009 21:18:43 GMT, "Michael \"Dog3\""
> > wrote:
>
> >Nina >
> : in rec.food.cooking
> >
> >>
> >> Sometimes grief is fresh.
> >>
> >> It doesn't have a timetable, and one of the things that (IMO, anyway)
> >> is worst about our society is the need to "get over it", to be done
> >> with grief because it makes other people uncomfortable.
> >>
> >> Some people need memorials and things on which to focus the grief. To
> >> keep some aspect of that person from being forgotten. I don't have a
> >> problem with that.
> >
> >I don't have a problem with it. I just don't understand it. For me it
> >would be keeping the wound open (for lack of a better phrase) instead of
> >letting it heal. That's just me though.
>
> I think... I don't know, and I know this is really off-topic, but it's
> something I'm right in the middle of at the moment, so it's close to
> my heart... that there's a point in grief where healing seems like
> forgetting, and that seems like something far worse than just enduring
> the pain.
>
> I am kind of hoping that there's some point where that no longer feels
> like the right thing to do, though.
>
> Nina

If you ever totally "get over it", imho you never cared in the first
place. Just MHO.

Learning to simply cope, to me, is the key.

Value the memories. :-)
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

sf wrote:
>s that we are all mortal and please drive
>>> safely.
>> I am more inclined to the erection of monuments to stupidly..... At this
>> spot on Jan.4 2009, a drunk driver was speeding, lost control and
>> crashed into a tree killing himself and crippling his passenger or a
>> guy who was driving carelessly crossed a double line to pass another
>> vehicle and caused a head-on collision that killed him and injured three
>> others. Memorials of remembrance should only be reserved for those who
>> were the innocent victims.
>
> That's cold, Dave. Even the worst of the worst has someone who loves
> them. Besides you'd cause accidents with everyone trying to read the
> fine print on the monument as they drive past.



Yeah, I know it's cold. I have a sympathy for the innocent victims but
not for those whose carelessness leads to their own deaths. I suppose
that the suggestion that the monument explaining the cause of the
accident should make the people reconsider putting up a memorial to the
lost loved one whose carelessness led to their own deaths and the deaths
of others. They are welcome to their own private and personal
memorials, but when they want to erect them at the side of the road
where their loved one's idiocy cause a traffic accident it is a
different matter.

In article >,
Goomba > wrote:

> Michael "Dog3" wrote:
> > Nina >
>
> >> Some people need memorials and things on which to focus the grief. To
> >> keep some aspect of that person from being forgotten. I don't have a
> >> problem with that.
> >
> > I don't have a problem with it. I just don't understand it. For me it
> > would be keeping the wound open (for lack of a better phrase) instead of
> > letting it heal. That's just me though.
> >
> > Michael
>
> I find this new trend of putting decorative displays on car windows with
> the named of the deceased and date of birth/death with some curlycues as
> if a fancy monogram or something to be a sad display of "grief" and
> tacky as all get out. What the hell is *that* about....?

Everybody copes in different ways.
Judging them is not fair Goomba.

Really.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article > ,
Dave Smith > wrote:

> Goomba wrote:
>
> > I find this new trend of putting decorative displays on car windows with
> > the named of the deceased and date of birth/death with some curlycues as
> > if a fancy monogram or something to be a sad display of "grief" and
> > tacky as all get out. What the hell is *that* about....?
>
> There are a lot of people out there who capitalize on the guilt trips
> that grief can lead to. Just look at the money that people blow on
> caskets and gravestones.

Heh!

That's why we've gone to cremation for family members...

It costs about 1/10th as much.

Why spend thousands on a dead person?
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

sf wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:14:32 -0500, Nina >
> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 14:42:36 -0800, sf > wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:49:36 -0500, Nina >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think... I don't know, and I know this is really off-topic, but it's
>>>> something I'm right in the middle of at the moment, so it's close to
>>>> my heart... that there's a point in grief where healing seems like
>>>> forgetting, and that seems like something far worse than just enduring
>>>> the pain.
>>>>
>>>> I am kind of hoping that there's some point where that no longer feels
>>>> like the right thing to do, though.
>>> Oh, Nina... I'm so sorry. Who is it? Parent, husband, child?
>> Mother. It's been nearly six months. I know that at some point it
>> will get better, but it's just not yet.
>>
>
> My mom died two years ago. I wasn't devastated, but I get weepy every
> now and then

My mother died a year ago April. When I spoke at her funeral I said that
the time that I would miss her most would be at Christmas, because she
used to go to such great efforts to make Christmas special. I like to
think that I pay her a great tribute by trying to carry on her tradition
by doing lots of Christmas baking and having family over and making
sure that someone has a place to go if they have nowhere else to go. I
make her light fruit cake recipe and shortbreads.

Omelet wrote:


> I personally find road side memorials offensive.
> But, that's just me.
>
> I was glad to see them outlawed locally.



You are not alone. I find them offencive too, and when it became an
issue here I contacted the local council and made my thoughts known.

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:34:28 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>They are welcome to their own private and personal
>memorials, but when they want to erect them at the side of the road
>where their loved one's idiocy cause a traffic accident it is a
>different matter.

How do you know the memorials aren't for victims?


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:32:20 -0600, Omelet >
wrote:

>I personally find road side memorials offensive.
>But, that's just me.

OTOH, I look at them as a quiet reminder that we are all mortal.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

In article > ,
Dave Smith > wrote:

> > Good grief Dave! And I thought _I_ had issues!
>
> :-) Well I did say that different people have different ways of dealing
> with things. I could have made a big deal of it at the time, but it
> would have caused a huge family rift that probably would never have been
> healed. I just had to make notes for future.

Good point.
>
> > As for graves, dad's parents ashes are here in the house, still in their
> > boxes from the funeral parlor. I need to get over to Hobby Lobby and
> > get him a trunk for them.
>
> My mother's ashes are in my brother's plot in Niagara on the Lake. It is
> a nice old Anglican church in the country and full of old Loyalist
> graves from the early 1800s, and she had UEL roots. My father's ashes
> are in a war graves site in Svino, Denmark, a very peaceful place. The
> local people are very proud to have him there and take wonderful care of
> the grave. When I went over to Estonia and Sweden last summer we stopped
> in Denmark for a few days and I went down to the cemetery to pay my
> respects.

Nice!

>
>
> > Mom's ashes are here in my bedroom in a brass bound memory trunk. The
> > trunk also contains a small collection of her favorite things, and the
> > sympathy cards, which I will eventually burn...
> >
> > My two sister's graves are in Colorado. They don't get visited often...
>
> It might be worth a trip. Colorado is beautiful, so you have added
> incentive to go there for a vacation.

Heh! And an excuse to visit the Denver Museum...
The graves are in Grand Junction.
>
>
> > I like cremation. It's tidier and easier to deal with, and a lot less
> > expensive. I see no point in spending thousands on someone once they
> > are dead.
>
> The cost of embalming and coffins is appalling. There is really no need
> for it. Ashes in an urn and a little marker. My wife's family has a plot
> in a nice cemetery in Toronto that has her maternal grandparents along
> with urns of ashes for her mother, father, brother, an aunt and a
> cousin. We make a trip in every year on Remembrance day and she does her
> routine and I clean up the stones.

<hugs>
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

sf wrote:
> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:34:28 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> They are welcome to their own private and personal
>> memorials, but when they want to erect them at the side of the road
>> where their loved one's idiocy cause a traffic accident it is a
>> different matter.
>
> How do you know the memorials aren't for victims?

I can't speak for those in the rest of the country or across the
continent, but I read all the local newspapers and get the story, and I
see the monuments. They are almost without exception the fault of the
driver who was killed, usually excessive speed and careless driving.
That is why I suggested the monuments to idiocy mentioning the innocent
victims. People are entitled to their private grief, but if they insist
on making it public then they are going to have to expect that the rest
of us do not always share their sympathy.


FWIW.... several years ago there was a fatal accident in front of my
neighbour's. I used to get home from work at about 3:45, and when the
weather warmed up enough for motorcycling, withing 5-10 of my getting
home, a crotch rocket used to come flying down the road. It is a 60 kph
(35 mph) zone, and this kid was always doing well over 100 kph, well
over. It went on every day for a week and a half. There is a good
reason for the 60 kph zone. It is a rural road, with rolling hills,
blind intersections, private driveways, domestic animals and wild life,
and no shoulders on the road.

Then one day an old lady was coming the other way and moved over to
avoid a flock of geese crossing the road. The kid came along doing his
usual 90-100 MPH, went tearing over the crest of the hill and smacked
headfirst into her car. He was killed on impact and the bike exploded
from the force. There were parts scattered for a radius of over 100 feet.

My poor neighbour had to put up with weeks and weeks of the victim's <?>
school mates hanging out day after day, just sitting around crying and
leaving mementos.

My neighbours and I were not sympathetic. We had been seeing this guy
pulling the same stunt day after day. We knew that he was going to crash
some day, and probably some day soon. Personally, I was glad that he
only killed himself, because the way he was driving he could easily ahve
killed someone else.

On Sun 04 Jan 2009 05:48:45p, sf told us...

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:32:20 -0600, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
>>I personally find road side memorials offensive.
>>But, that's just me.
>
> OTOH, I look at them as a quiet reminder that we are all mortal.
>
>

For me it depends on how garish it is. A simple cross or plaque with the
person's name, date, etc. is a "quiet reminder". Four square feet of
horible plastic flowers, color photos, stuffed animals, etc., is what I
usually see around these parts. It looks like crap.

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
************************************************** **********************
Date: Sunday, 01(I)/04(IV)/09(MMIX)
************************************************** **********************
Countdown till Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
2wks 5hrs 45mins
************************************************** **********************
Cats have to beg for an ice cube everytime someone opens the
freezer door.
************************************************** **********************

In article >,
Nina > wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 14:42:36 -0800, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:49:36 -0500, Nina >
> >wrote:
> >
> >>I think... I don't know, and I know this is really off-topic, but it's
> >>something I'm right in the middle of at the moment, so it's close to
> >>my heart... that there's a point in grief where healing seems like
> >>forgetting, and that seems like something far worse than just enduring
> >>the pain.
> >>
> >>I am kind of hoping that there's some point where that no longer feels
> >>like the right thing to do, though.
> >
> >Oh, Nina... I'm so sorry. Who is it? Parent, husband, child?
>
> Mother. It's been nearly six months. I know that at some point it
> will get better, but it's just not yet.
>
> Nina
>

Oh Nina, I'm so sorry!

It's been 6 years for me, and I still cry sometimes...
I feel for you. <hugs>
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

>>
>
> For me it depends on how garish it is. A simple cross or plaque with the
> person's name, date, etc. is a "quiet reminder". Four square feet of
> horible plastic flowers, color photos, stuffed animals, etc., is what I
> usually see around these parts. It looks like crap.


The worst that I ever saw was in Niagara Falls. In addition to a lot of
flowers that weer strewn about, mostly plastic, someone had but
written the name of the deceased with styrofoam cups stuck in the chain
link fence. The driver had wiped out in a city street while taking a
long gentle curve at more than twice the posted speed limit. It is bad
enough that his careless caused his own death and destroyed city
property, but then the are became an eyesore with the garish roadside
shrine.

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:14:32 -0500, Nina >
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 14:42:36 -0800, sf > wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:49:36 -0500, Nina >
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>>I think... I don't know, and I know this is really off-topic, but it's
> >>>something I'm right in the middle of at the moment, so it's close to
> >>>my heart... that there's a point in grief where healing seems like
> >>>forgetting, and that seems like something far worse than just enduring
> >>>the pain.
> >>>
> >>>I am kind of hoping that there's some point where that no longer feels
> >>>like the right thing to do, though.
> >>
> >>Oh, Nina... I'm so sorry. Who is it? Parent, husband, child?
> >
> >Mother. It's been nearly six months. I know that at some point it
> >will get better, but it's just not yet.
> >
>
> My mom died two years ago. I wasn't devastated, but I get weepy every
> now and then.

I have to watch "Ghost" by myself...

I still don't deal well with death since I lost her.
I totally understand...
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article >,
sf > wrote:

> On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:32:20 -0600, Omelet >
> wrote:
>
> >I personally find road side memorials offensive.
> >But, that's just me.
>
> OTOH, I look at them as a quiet reminder that we are all mortal.

I get that reminder at work. Almost daily.
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> On Sun 04 Jan 2009 05:48:45p, sf told us...
>
>
>>On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:32:20 -0600, Omelet >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I personally find road side memorials offensive.
>>>But, that's just me.
>>
>>OTOH, I look at them as a quiet reminder that we are all mortal.
>>
>>
>
>
> For me it depends on how garish it is. A simple cross or plaque with the
> person's name, date, etc. is a "quiet reminder". Four square feet of
> horible plastic flowers, color photos, stuffed animals, etc., is what I
> usually see around these parts. It looks like crap.
>

The one that gets on my nerves locally is a memorial to a guy who was
killed crossing an intersection at midnight, against the light, on his
bike. He was dressed in solid black and had a blood alcohol level of
..21%. He was riding his bike because his driver's license had been
revoked for repeated DWIs, several of which involved injuries to other
parties.

Some poor driver (who was found legally blameless, btw) will have
nightmares for the rest of his life, but this douchebag's friends build
him a freakin' shrine.

In article >,
Kathleen > wrote:

> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
> > On Sun 04 Jan 2009 05:48:45p, sf told us...
> >
> >
> >>On Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:32:20 -0600, Omelet >
> >>wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>I personally find road side memorials offensive.
> >>>But, that's just me.
> >>
> >>OTOH, I look at them as a quiet reminder that we are all mortal.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > For me it depends on how garish it is. A simple cross or plaque with the
> > person's name, date, etc. is a "quiet reminder". Four square feet of
> > horible plastic flowers, color photos, stuffed animals, etc., is what I
> > usually see around these parts. It looks like crap.
> >
>
> The one that gets on my nerves locally is a memorial to a guy who was
> killed crossing an intersection at midnight, against the light, on his
> bike. He was dressed in solid black and had a blood alcohol level of
> .21%. He was riding his bike because his driver's license had been
> revoked for repeated DWIs, several of which involved injuries to other
> parties.
>
> Some poor driver (who was found legally blameless, btw) will have
> nightmares for the rest of his life, but this douchebag's friends build
> him a freakin' shrine.

Some people love party animals. <g>
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article >,
Omelet > wrote:

> In article
> >,
> Dan Abel > wrote:
>
> > I suffered a permanent personality change when our son died. It was 27
> > years ago. It's not a big deal, I just have a little different sense of
> > humor. I still have a sense of humor, but some things just aren't funny
> > any more. I'll hear a joke, and it just leaves me cold.
>
> Losing a child is very, very hard on parents.
> My parents lost 2 out of 4, so I know very well what it does to people.
>
> Dad still cries sometimes, and I lost my older sister when I was 8.
>
> That was 38 years ago...
>
> I don't think mom ever got over it. She was driving.
> Canidisse was 10.
>
> Karen died before I was born of SIDS at 4 months of age. Dad still
> blames himself for it.
>
> How did your son die, if you feel like talking about it?

We don't know. It wasn't listed as SIDS, but no one could explain why
not. He just died. He was two weeks short of his first birthday. My
wife was driving on the freeway. He was in the carseat in the back. My
wife peeked back there using the mirror and his eyes were rolled up in
his head. She stopped and flagged some people down. A truck driver
called it in, and a nurse administered CPR. He was taken to the
hospital, and put on life support. The doctor told my wife that there
was no remaining brain activity, and that he would never come back to
life. My wife consented to discontinuing the life support. The autopsy
showed nothing.

We had a two year old, who was home with me. That helped us focus, as
he needed our care, and we couldn't just mope around and feel sorry for
ourselves. We went on to have two more children.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

On Sun 04 Jan 2009 07:20:12p, Omelet told us...

> In article >,
> Kathleen > wrote:
>
>>
>> The one that gets on my nerves locally is a memorial to a guy who was
>> killed crossing an intersection at midnight, against the light, on his
>> bike. He was dressed in solid black and had a blood alcohol level of
>> .21%. He was riding his bike because his driver's license had been
>> revoked for repeated DWIs, several of which involved injuries to other
>> parties.
>>
>> Some poor driver (who was found legally blameless, btw) will have
>> nightmares for the rest of his life, but this douchebag's friends build
>> him a freakin' shrine.
>
> Some people love party animals. <g>

And some people are just animals.

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
************************************************** **********************
Date: Sunday, 01(I)/04(IV)/09(MMIX)
************************************************** **********************
Countdown till Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
2wks 4hrs 35mins
************************************************** **********************
If you didn't get caught, did you really do it?
************************************************** **********************

In article
>,
Dan Abel > wrote:

> In article >,
> Omelet > wrote:
>
> > In article
> > >,
> > Dan Abel > wrote:
> >
> > > I suffered a permanent personality change when our son died. It was 27
> > > years ago. It's not a big deal, I just have a little different sense of
> > > humor. I still have a sense of humor, but some things just aren't funny
> > > any more. I'll hear a joke, and it just leaves me cold.
> >
> > Losing a child is very, very hard on parents.
> > My parents lost 2 out of 4, so I know very well what it does to people.
> >
> > Dad still cries sometimes, and I lost my older sister when I was 8.
> >
> > That was 38 years ago...
> >
> > I don't think mom ever got over it. She was driving.
> > Candisse was 10.
> >
> > Karen died before I was born of SIDS at 4 months of age. Dad still
> > blames himself for it.
> >
> > How did your son die, if you feel like talking about it?
>
> We don't know. It wasn't listed as SIDS, but no one could explain why
> not. He just died. He was two weeks short of his first birthday. My
> wife was driving on the freeway. He was in the carseat in the back. My
> wife peeked back there using the mirror and his eyes were rolled up in
> his head. She stopped and flagged some people down. A truck driver
> called it in, and a nurse administered CPR. He was taken to the
> hospital, and put on life support. The doctor told my wife that there
> was no remaining brain activity, and that he would never come back to
> life. My wife consented to discontinuing the life support. The autopsy
> showed nothing.
>
> We had a two year old, who was home with me. That helped us focus, as
> he needed our care, and we couldn't just mope around and feel sorry for
> ourselves. We went on to have two more children.

Sounds a lot like mom and dad... After Karen died, they had me. After
Candisse was killed, mom had my sister. That's why there is a 10 year
age difference between us.

I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I understand the pain based on
what I've seen with my parents.

Hugs!
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

In article 0>,
Wayne Boatwright > wrote:

> On Sun 04 Jan 2009 07:20:12p, Omelet told us...
>
> > In article >,
> > Kathleen > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The one that gets on my nerves locally is a memorial to a guy who was
> >> killed crossing an intersection at midnight, against the light, on his
> >> bike. He was dressed in solid black and had a blood alcohol level of
> >> .21%. He was riding his bike because his driver's license had been
> >> revoked for repeated DWIs, several of which involved injuries to other
> >> parties.
> >>
> >> Some poor driver (who was found legally blameless, btw) will have
> >> nightmares for the rest of his life, but this douchebag's friends build
> >> him a freakin' shrine.
> >
> > Some people love party animals. <g>
>
> And some people are just animals.

<lol> No arguments there...
--
Peace! Om

"Love and compassion are necessities, not luxuries. Without them humanity cannot survive." -- Dalai Lama

Dan Abel wrote:


> We don't know. It wasn't listed as SIDS, but no one could explain why
> not. He just died. He was two weeks short of his first birthday. My
> wife was driving on the freeway. He was in the carseat in the back. My
> wife peeked back there using the mirror and his eyes were rolled up in
> his head. She stopped and flagged some people down. A truck driver
> called it in, and a nurse administered CPR. He was taken to the
> hospital, and put on life support. The doctor told my wife that there
> was no remaining brain activity, and that he would never come back to
> life. My wife consented to discontinuing the life support. The autopsy
> showed nothing.
>
> We had a two year old, who was home with me. That helped us focus, as
> he needed our care, and we couldn't just mope around and feel sorry for
> ourselves. We went on to have two more children.
>


Oh god, Dan. How awful for you both. I'm so sorry.

When my son was 10 days old he did a crash and burn with a sky-high
fever. I had him in bed with me so I noticed it almost immediately and
rushed him to the pediatrician.

When the doc examined him he wanted me to wait there while he called an
ambulance to take him to the hospital. I told him, screw that, call
ahead to the ER and tell them we're on our way, I can get him there
faster myself. And I did.

By the time the rest of the family started arriving they still didn't
have any idea what was wrong with him, and I had to listen to him scream
as they tried to start an IV.

My mother was there by then and I said that I was afraid he might die.
She was quiet a few seconds and then said that there were some things
worse than dead. It was like a bucket of ice water to the face. I'd
been thinking binary - dead or not dead, never giving a thought to the
in between. I thought I was going to faint. Then I wanted to slap her.

It was touch and go for about four days. He was having bouts of apnea.
I stayed with him round the clock and jostled him and called his name
every time his O2 sat would start to drop. He was hooked to telemetry
but I'd seen how long it too the nursing staff to get to his bed when an
alarm sounded.

And then he recovered, completely, as far as anybody can tell. They
wound up calling it "pneumonia", despite the lack of any symptoms or
diagnostic evidence. This was 14 years ago. I still feel angry about
the lack of answers about what happened to him and why.

On Sun 04 Jan 2009 07:30:56p, Omelet told us...

> In article
> >,
> Dan Abel > wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Omelet > wrote:
>>
>> > In article
>> > >,
>> > Dan Abel > wrote:
>> >
>> > > I suffered a permanent personality change when our son died. It
>> > > was 27 years ago. It's not a big deal, I just have a little
>> > > different sense of humor. I still have a sense of humor, but some
>> > > things just aren't funny any more. I'll hear a joke, and it just
>> > > leaves me cold.
>> >
>> > Losing a child is very, very hard on parents.
>> > My parents lost 2 out of 4, so I know very well what it does to
>> > people.
>> >
>> > Dad still cries sometimes, and I lost my older sister when I was 8.
>> >
>> > That was 38 years ago...
>> >
>> > I don't think mom ever got over it. She was driving.
>> > Candisse was 10.
>> >
>> > Karen died before I was born of SIDS at 4 months of age. Dad still
>> > blames himself for it.
>> >
>> > How did your son die, if you feel like talking about it?
>>
>> We don't know. It wasn't listed as SIDS, but no one could explain why
>> not. He just died. He was two weeks short of his first birthday. My
>> wife was driving on the freeway. He was in the carseat in the back.
>> My wife peeked back there using the mirror and his eyes were rolled up
>> in his head. She stopped and flagged some people down. A truck driver
>> called it in, and a nurse administered CPR. He was taken to the
>> hospital, and put on life support. The doctor told my wife that there
>> was no remaining brain activity, and that he would never come back to
>> life. My wife consented to discontinuing the life support. The
>> autopsy showed nothing.
>>
>> We had a two year old, who was home with me. That helped us focus, as
>> he needed our care, and we couldn't just mope around and feel sorry for
>> ourselves. We went on to have two more children.
>
> Sounds a lot like mom and dad... After Karen died, they had me. After
> Candisse was killed, mom had my sister. That's why there is a 10 year
> age difference between us.
>
> I'm sorry you had to deal with that. I understand the pain based on
> what I've seen with my parents.
>
> Hugs!

My parents went through a lot, too. They were married 8 years before I was
born. During that time my mother had 4 miscarriages and 2 full-term
stillbirths. When I was 9 years old my mother was in her 8th month with
identical twin boys. She developed a very serious case of uremic
poisoning. The twins were born live; one lived an hour, the other 30
minutes. My mother also nearly died and was in the hospital nearly 3
months. This was in 1954. I know all of this really changed their lives.

--
Wayne Boatwright
(correct the spelling of "geemail" to reply)
************************************************** **********************
Date: Sunday, 01(I)/04(IV)/09(MMIX)
************************************************** **********************
Countdown till Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
2wks 4hrs 4mins
************************************************** **********************
Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality.
************************************************** **********************