On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:04:30 -0800, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

>cyber**** wrote:
>
>>>>> i would say only that democrats don't 'demonize' illegals.
>>>>>
>>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>>> post?
>>>>
>>>
>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our ancestors
>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some legally,
>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>> forgiving.
>>>
>> And you can bet his were at the bottom of the pecking order.
>
>
>Just as you are now, you morphing guttersnipe.

In her family she's the first generation who doesn't swing from trees.

Lou

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:04:30 -0800, Bob Terwilliger wrote:

> cyber**** wrote:
>
>>>>> i would say only that democrats don't 'demonize' illegals.
>>>>>
>>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>>> post?
>>>>
>>>
>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our ancestors
>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some legally,
>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>> forgiving.
>>>
>> And you can bet his were at the bottom of the pecking order.
>
> Just as you are now, you morphing guttersnipe.
>
> Bob

i don't think i've seen cyber changing identities, as many of her
detractors have.

your pal,
blake

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:15:10 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:27:56 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 00:28:48 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 05:38:19 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 2009-02-19, sf > wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:56:15 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski" >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>I don't understand how the electorate is dumb enough to keep voting
>>>>>>some of these guy back into office.
>>>>>
>>>>> I gave up trying to understand after Bush2 was re-elected.
>>>>
>>>>Amen, sf. It staggers the imagination. :\
>>>
>>> How do you think we in Illinois feel after re-electing Blago?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>>i think in both cases, most people didn't know exactly how sleazy the
>>things they were up to were.
>
> Nope. Chicago media and political commercials were loaded with info.
> People chose to ignore it and voted blindly by party.
>
> Lou

in blago's case, i'll defer to your local expertise.

your pal,
blake

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:13:19 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:22:55 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>> was there even one thing he did that benefited the country as a whole?
>
> Went back to Tex-ass.
>
> Lou

a little late for that shit. but a happy occasion nonetheless.

your pal,
blake

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:16:39 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:49:08 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:15:31 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:05:38 GMT, blake murphy
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>and sorry, n.b., american workers won't put up with working for sub-minimum
>>>>wages to pick crops under the threat that if they complain, they can be
>>>>deported. business owners like the current set-up just fine, which is why
>>>>it won't be changed anytime soon.
>>>
>>> So is the answer to eliminate business owners and let the highly
>>> efficient government control everything?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>>i think there can be a happy medium. enforcing the laws we have now might
>>be a good start.
>
> Well let's see what the new guys can do.
>
> Lou

say (or think) what you will of the new president, i don't envy his ass.
he has several large jobs in front of him.

your pal,
blake

On 2009-02-23, blake murphy > wrote:

> yes, but if you squeal about 'illegals taking our jobs,' you should also
> squeal about the people that hire them. since many are big republican
> donors (tyson's, et al.), you don't see (elected) republicans doing that
> much.

BINGO!

But, don't lay it just on Republicans. Pelosi was a key figure in driving
up H1B visa quotas. Some states, like AZ, which have been stretched to the
limit of providing federally mandated benefits to illegals, have taken
drastic action. Any employer caught hiring illegals may find themselves in
the same boat as drug dealers, having their property and business
confiscated. CO is considering like legislation. About damn time.

nb

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:04:30 -0800, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
>
> > cyber**** wrote:

> >> And you can bet his were at the bottom of the pecking order.
> >
> > Just as you are now, you morphing guttersnipe.

> i don't think i've seen cyber changing identities, as many of her
> detractors have.

Seems like you missed someone else, also. It's easy to miss, until you
killfile them. Then it's real obvious when they pop up, even though you
thought they were killfiled.

--
Dan Abel
Petaluma, California USA

islation. About damn time.
>
> nb


Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?

Yep. Maybe when there's no one left to do the hard work of putting food
on our tables, the price will be right for growing ALL our food in
Mexico and Central America. Then we can pay what they pay in Japan for
food.

Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
reputable employer and aren't paid in cash. And since they aren't
legal, they can't claim refunds.

gloria p

Gloria P wrote:
> islation. About damn time.
>>
>> nb
>
>
> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
> pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?

I think the issue is more of legal migrant labor vs ILLEGAL alien labor.

> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.

In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify documents,
which many times involves identity theft.

> And since they aren't
> legal, they can't claim refunds.

Which is ok with me. It has been demonstrated that ILLEGAL aliens (not legal
migrant laborers) are a negative drain on social services. As an aside, the
number of illegals has been drastically declining over the past 18 months
due to the influence of state laws, increased ICE activity, and public
backlash. The number of LEGAL migrants has been making up the deficit, and
has increased in the agricultural industries. American citizens are more and
more willing to become employed in the construction and other skilled manual
trades, which has been pushing out illegals by the droves and even replacing
the legals. A side effect of a tightened job market.
--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

On 2009-02-23, Gloria P > wrote:

> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
> pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?

I picked fruit when I was a kid. I washed dishes in a restaurant last year
for minimum wage. I'm legal. I pay taxes. I'm a WASP. Don't give that
crap about Americans won't do the work. Besides, most agri-biz is changing
to automated picking, even if they have to re-train the crop to be pickabble.

> Yep. Maybe when there's no one left to do the hard work of putting food
> on our tables, the price will be right for growing ALL our food in
> Mexico and Central America. Then we can pay what they pay in Japan for
> food.

If that's yout prime goal in life, to get food cheaper than anywhere else on
the planet, so be it.

> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.

DUH!! If the employees are illegal, the employer is NOT reputable.

nb

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:11:06 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:16:39 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:49:08 GMT, blake murphy
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:15:31 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:05:38 GMT, blake murphy
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>and sorry, n.b., american workers won't put up with working for sub-minimum
>>>>>wages to pick crops under the threat that if they complain, they can be
>>>>>deported. business owners like the current set-up just fine, which is why
>>>>>it won't be changed anytime soon.
>>>>
>>>> So is the answer to eliminate business owners and let the highly
>>>> efficient government control everything?
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>>i think there can be a happy medium. enforcing the laws we have now might
>>>be a good start.
>>
>> Well let's see what the new guys can do.
>>
>> Lou
>
>say (or think) what you will of the new president,

I've been pretty tame about him here because I didn't want to hurt
your feelings. But your constant olberman imitation is getting old.

>i don't envy his ass.

He's just as nuts as the last nutjob. Why would any sane person envy
that? All either of them wanted was power.

>he has several large jobs in front of him.

He wanted the job. Actually fooled you and others into thinking he
could do it. He had no clue what the jobs in front of him were until
he got the nuke codes. Look at every pres in our lifetime before and
after swearing in and you'll see something changed by looking at their
eyes.

Lou

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:05:37 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:18:34 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>> post?
>>
>> Lou
>
>yes, but if you squeal about 'illegals taking our jobs,' you should also
>squeal about the people that hire them. since many are big republican
>donors (tyson's, et al.), you don't see (elected) republicans doing that
>much.

You can google the tie between clinton and tyson and hilliary and
walmart's board and then get back to me about the republican part.
OK? OH! Check for cocaine issues while you're at it

Lou

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:07:02 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:04:30 -0800, Bob Terwilliger wrote:
>
>> cyber**** wrote:
>>
>>>>>> i would say only that democrats don't 'demonize' illegals.
>>>>>>
>>>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>>>> post?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our ancestors
>>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some legally,
>>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>> forgiving.
>>>>
>>> And you can bet his were at the bottom of the pecking order.
>>
>> Just as you are now, you morphing guttersnipe.
>>
>> Bob
>
>i don't think i've seen cyber changing identities, as many of her
>detractors have.

She's just got two. Both are useless.

Lou

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 16:25:04 -0700, Gloria P >
wrote:

> islation. About damn time.
>>
>> nb
>
>
>Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
>pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?

Your quoting is atrocious but I'll answer even though I'm not notbob.
Simple answer: If they're illegal, NO.
>
>Yep. Maybe when there's no one left to do the hard work of putting food
>on our tables, the price will be right for growing ALL our food in
>Mexico and Central America. Then we can pay what they pay in Japan for
>food.

Does Japan pay for emergency healthcare and schooling for fence
hoppers?

Have you ever been t-boned by an illegal who couldn't read a street
sign? My mother was. The asshole was sent back and probably hopped
the fence back again. My mom had a totaled car, several days in the
hospital, 3 years of physical therapy which didn't do much, AND her
insurance went up! She could have grown a LOT of lettuce for that.

And by the way..... fence hopper was hurt in the accident too. But
tax dollars fixed him up all nice before they deported his ass. My
mother and her insurance had to pay for her recovery.

>Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
>reputable employer and aren't paid in cash. And since they aren't
>legal, they can't claim refunds.

Good gawd are you dense. The ones that do have withholdings
over-claim dependents and should actually have to pay more. But they
come back next year with a new name and # and start over. Please take
off those silly glasses.

Lou

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:32:41 -0800, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote:

<random snipping of others saying stupid things>

>In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify documents,
>which many times involves identity theft.

The documents aren't all that complex for menial jobs. Even with
identity theft they don't stick around long. Very few get caught as
they figured out the American way. And if they do get caught get they
just start over.

Lou

>>>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our
>>>>> ancestors
>>>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some
>>>>> legally,
>>>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>>> forgiving.

Don't you DARE ****ing include my ancestors with this group! My grandfather
and grandmother came here a year apart from Poland in 1913 and 1914. They
had the clothes on their backs, the money in their pockets, and one small
suitcase each. They found work. They met and married. They started
learning English, and started studying for citizenship. They were made
citizens BEFORE having their first child. They had five. They forbade
their children from speaking Polish in the house, although the kids would do
it on the sly, and paying the price of corporal punishment if caught. Every
one of the boys served in WW2. The two women married and had great
children. They were legal US citizens, and just people who observed the
law. So don't give me that happy liberal horseshit line. My ancestors were
two classes and a huge step ahead of this human garbage that is rotting out
system and services from within, learning to leech on the system and being
proud of it. Either that, or too lazy to work, and getting money from
illegal activities.

Asshole.

Steve

"SteveB" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our
>>>>>> ancestors
>>>>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some
>>>>>> legally,
>>>>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>>>> forgiving.
>
> Don't you DARE ****ing include my ancestors with this group! My
> grandfather and grandmother came here a year apart from Poland in 1913 and
> 1914. They had the clothes on their backs, the money in their pockets,
> and one small suitcase each. They found work. They met and married.
> They started learning English, and started studying for citizenship. They
> were made citizens BEFORE having their first child. They had five.
> They forbade their children from speaking Polish in the house, although
> the kids would do it on the sly, and paying the price of corporal
> punishment if caught. Every one of the boys served in WW2. The two women
> married and had great children. They were legal US citizens, and just
> people who observed the law. So don't give me that happy liberal
> horseshit line. My ancestors were two classes and a huge step ahead of
> this human garbage that is rotting out system and services from within,
> learning to leech on the system and being proud of it. Either that, or
> too lazy to work, and getting money from illegal activities.
>
> Asshole.
>

Actually, you are the asshole.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:17:04 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:18:10 -0700, Gloria P >
> wrote:
>
>>Lou Decruss wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:50:29 GMT, blake murphy
>>> > wrote:
>>
>>>> easy, lou. i would say only that democrats don't 'demonize' illegals.
>>>>
>>>> your pal,
>>>> blake
>>>
>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>> post?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>>
>>But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our ancestors
>>were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some legally,
>>some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>forgiving.
>
> There's plenty of poor people here legally that deserve help first.
> Many have even paid taxes. <---sarcasm.

well, the illegals using a fake social security number are paying that and
f.i.c.a. taxes that they will never recover. so there is that.

your pal,
blake

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:32:41 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:

> Gloria P wrote:
>> islation. About damn time.
>>>
>>> nb
>>
>>
>> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
>> pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?
>
> I think the issue is more of legal migrant labor vs ILLEGAL alien labor.
>
>> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
>> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.
>
> In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify documents,
> which many times involves identity theft.
>
>> And since they aren't
>> legal, they can't claim refunds.
>
> Which is ok with me. It has been demonstrated that ILLEGAL aliens (not legal
> migrant laborers) are a negative drain on social services.

i think i would like to see a cite on that. it is widely bandied about,
but i don't think it has been demonstrated. cheap labor usually provides
benefits to *somebody*.

>As an aside, the
> number of illegals has been drastically declining over the past 18 months
> due to the influence of state laws, increased ICE activity, and public
> backlash. The number of LEGAL migrants has been making up the deficit, and
> has increased in the agricultural industries. American citizens are more and
> more willing to become employed in the construction and other skilled manual
> trades, which has been pushing out illegals by the droves and even replacing
> the legals. A side effect of a tightened job market.

i would also like to see a cite for that. how many american citizens do
you think are out there picking lettuce?

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:37:58 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:05:37 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:18:34 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>> post?
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>>yes, but if you squeal about 'illegals taking our jobs,' you should also
>>squeal about the people that hire them. since many are big republican
>>donors (tyson's, et al.), you don't see (elected) republicans doing that
>>much.
>
> You can google the tie between clinton and tyson and hilliary and
> walmart's board and then get back to me about the republican part.
> OK? OH! Check for cocaine issues while you're at it
>
> Lou

jesus, lou. are you one of the nutters who think the clintons were
smuggling cocaine out of the mena airport? i thought you were smarter than
that.

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 02:44:59 -0700, SteveB wrote:

>>>>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our
>>>>>> ancestors
>>>>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some
>>>>>> legally,
>>>>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>>>> forgiving.
>
> Don't you DARE ****ing include my ancestors with this group! My grandfather
> and grandmother came here a year apart from Poland in 1913 and 1914. They
> had the clothes on their backs, the money in their pockets, and one small
> suitcase each. They found work. They met and married. They started
> learning English, and started studying for citizenship. They were made
> citizens BEFORE having their first child. They had five. They forbade
> their children from speaking Polish in the house, although the kids would do
> it on the sly, and paying the price of corporal punishment if caught. Every
> one of the boys served in WW2. The two women married and had great
> children. They were legal US citizens, and just people who observed the
> law. So don't give me that happy liberal horseshit line. My ancestors were
> two classes and a huge step ahead of this human garbage that is rotting out
> system and services from within, learning to leech on the system and being
> proud of it. Either that, or too lazy to work, and getting money from
> illegal activities.
>
> Asshole.
>
> Steve

yeah, and my ancestors were white!

blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:33:55 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:11:06 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:16:39 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:49:08 GMT, blake murphy
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 12:15:31 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:05:38 GMT, blake murphy
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>and sorry, n.b., american workers won't put up with working for sub-minimum
>>>>>>wages to pick crops under the threat that if they complain, they can be
>>>>>>deported. business owners like the current set-up just fine, which is why
>>>>>>it won't be changed anytime soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> So is the answer to eliminate business owners and let the highly
>>>>> efficient government control everything?
>>>>>
>>>>> Lou
>>>>
>>>>i think there can be a happy medium. enforcing the laws we have now might
>>>>be a good start.
>>>
>>> Well let's see what the new guys can do.
>>>
>>> Lou
>>
>>say (or think) what you will of the new president,
>
> I've been pretty tame about him here because I didn't want to hurt
> your feelings. But your constant olberman imitation is getting old.
>

i never see olbermann, so i have no idea what i'd be imitating. but i am a
liberal, yes.

>>i don't envy his ass.
>
> He's just as nuts as the last nutjob. Why would any sane person envy
> that? All either of them wanted was power.
>

but the last nutjob was ignorant and incurious to a fault. he relied on
god and his gut, not his brain.

>>he has several large jobs in front of him.
>
> He wanted the job. Actually fooled you and others into thinking he
> could do it. He had no clue what the jobs in front of him were until
> he got the nuke codes. Look at every pres in our lifetime before and
> after swearing in and you'll see something changed by looking at their
> eyes.
>
> Lou

i see no evidence that the job *of being president* is beyond him. i don't
see how you can judge him as failing that job after *one month* in office.

the 'large jobs' i was referring to are largely the cluster****s bequeathed
to him by george the lesser.

your exasperated pal,
blake

blake murphy wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:32:41 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>
>> Gloria P wrote:
>>> islation. About damn time.
>>>>
>>>> nb
>>>
>>>
>>> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow
>>> and pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?
>>
>> I think the issue is more of legal migrant labor vs ILLEGAL alien
>> labor.
>>
>>> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
>>> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.
>>
>> In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify
>> documents, which many times involves identity theft.
>>
>>> And since they aren't
>>> legal, they can't claim refunds.
>>
>> Which is ok with me. It has been demonstrated that ILLEGAL aliens
>> (not legal migrant laborers) are a negative drain on social services.
>
> i think i would like to see a cite on that. it is widely bandied
> about, but i don't think it has been demonstrated. cheap labor
> usually provides benefits to *somebody*.

Feel free to use google. I researched the information a long while ago and
haven't kept it at my fingertips. The info is valid, but feel free to prove
it wrong. Keep in mind that much of the accusations surrounding negative
drain among migrants did not seperate legal vs illegal which is the big
mistake. I speak only of illegals. As to the benefits of cheap labor, such
benefit usually stops at the employer and his overhead expenditures.
Fortunately, that (illegals being employed) has been aggressively pursued
for the last 18 months. And in the case of the large manufacturers being
busted, long lines of Americans and legal migrants were lined up to take
those jobs.

>> As an aside, the
>> number of illegals has been drastically declining over the past 18
>> months due to the influence of state laws, increased ICE activity,
>> and public backlash. The number of LEGAL migrants has been making up
>> the deficit, and has increased in the agricultural industries.
>> American citizens are more and more willing to become employed in
>> the construction and other skilled manual trades, which has been
>> pushing out illegals by the droves and even replacing the legals. A
>> side effect of a tightened job market.
>
> i would also like to see a cite for that. how many american citizens
> do you think are out there picking lettuce?

Uh, how do you get picking lettuce out of my talking about skilled trades?
But as point of fact, all one needs to do is look at the increased number of
ag employers applying for and utilizing the H2-A program because of the loss
of the illegal market. In my area, which is the heaviest apple, pear, peach,
apricot and cherry producing area in the nation, the only migrant laborers
are those under the various temporary visa programs. 5 years ago, illegals
made up a large proportion of the labor market. ICE is now a constant
presence doing spot checks on documentation of both the laborer and the
farmer.

Illegal labor will continue to be a fact of life, but it is far less the
norm than before. And as employers continue to face jail and are heavily
fined (how the equivalent of year's worth of production?), illegal labor
will become negligible as a part of the overall work force.

--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

blake murphy wrote:

> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:32:41 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>
> > Gloria P wrote:
> >> islation. About damn time.
> >>>
> >>> nb
> >>
> >>
> >> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
> >> pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?
> >
> > I think the issue is more of legal migrant labor vs ILLEGAL alien labor.
> >
> >> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
> >> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.
> >
> > In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify
documents,
> > which many times involves identity theft.
> >
> >> And since they aren't
> >> legal, they can't claim refunds.
> >
> > Which is ok with me. It has been demonstrated that ILLEGAL aliens (not
legal
> > migrant laborers) are a negative drain on social services.
>
> i think i would like to see a cite on that. it is widely bandied about,
> but i don't think it has been demonstrated. cheap labor usually provides
> benefits to *somebody*.


Why do you think states like Kalifornia are dead broke, blake? Illegals
are a HUGE drain on the social welfare spending (schools, hospitals, etc.)
of many states...not to mention ballooning law enforcement costs, the costs
to build new prisons, etc.

My backwoods rural home county in Western Illannoy is planning to build a
new jail. The old one is only 25 years old, but they are getting funding to
buy a new one to hold well over 100 prisoners (the county only has 16,000
peeps in total). Where will these prisoners come from? The majority of
them will be illegals who are "farmed out" from the over - crowded jails of
larger Illinois - Iowa municipalities. They are in stir because they've
been caught drug running on the Interstate 80 corrider, which is the primary
East - West drug supply route for much of the nation.

So yeah, that poor rural county will have some economic "benefit" from the
presence of illegals, that jail will be one of the largest employers in the
county once it's built...

When I was a kid the legal Mexican migrants would come up to our county for
the harvest season to pick the tomatoes and stuff for the Heinz factory
across the Mississippi River in Iowa. A number of them stayed, became good
citizens, prosperous even. They were welcome because even 40 - 50 years ago
the population of the place was declining, their economic activity and
spending were most welcome in the local economy. Now there is a "second
wave" coming in, but these are primarily illegals and they are there because
of criminal activity - such an advancement!

This is only one example in one obscure place that's nowhere near the border
states. Multiply this scenario by many thousands all over the country and
you'll see the costs *quickly* add up...

--
Best
Greg



--
Best
Greg

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:43:24 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:17:04 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:18:10 -0700, Gloria P >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Lou Decruss wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:50:29 GMT, blake murphy
>>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> easy, lou. i would say only that democrats don't 'demonize' illegals.
>>>>>
>>>>> your pal,
>>>>> blake
>>>>
>>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>>> post?
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>>
>>>But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our ancestors
>>>were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some legally,
>>>some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>forgiving.
>>
>> There's plenty of poor people here legally that deserve help first.
>> Many have even paid taxes. <---sarcasm.
>
>well, the illegals using a fake social security number are paying that and
>f.i.c.a. taxes that they will never recover. so there is that.
>
>your pal,
>blake

Not if they operate as an independent contractor or contract labor and
get issued a 1099.

Lou

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:59:49 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:33:55 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

>i see no evidence that the job *of being president* is beyond him. i don't
>see how you can judge him as failing that job after *one month* in office.
>
>the 'large jobs' i was referring to are largely the cluster****s bequeathed
>to him by george the lesser.
>
>your exasperated pal,
>blake

<laugh> At least we're still pals.

Lou

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:51:05 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:37:58 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 17:05:37 GMT, blake murphy
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:18:34 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>>
>>>> They should. Didn't you mention enforcing current laws in another
>>>> post?
>>>>
>>>> Lou
>>>
>>>yes, but if you squeal about 'illegals taking our jobs,' you should also
>>>squeal about the people that hire them. since many are big republican
>>>donors (tyson's, et al.), you don't see (elected) republicans doing that
>>>much.
>>
>> You can google the tie between clinton and tyson and hilliary and
>> walmart's board and then get back to me about the republican part.
>> OK? OH! Check for cocaine issues while you're at it
>>
>> Lou
>
>jesus, lou.

Just, Lou.

> are you one of the nutters who think the clintons were
>smuggling cocaine out of the mena airport?

LOL. I forgot about that. But yes, that would be as silly as
believing Bush has a ranch in argentina to escape.

>i thought you were smarter than that.

I'm smart enough to know that some of what both you and I hear and
read is bullshit. And there's much truth we'll never know. I'm
happy as a clam to just sit here and make silly posts on usenet.

>your pal,
>blake

Lou

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:52:52 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 02:44:59 -0700, SteveB wrote:
>
>>>>>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>>>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our
>>>>>>> ancestors
>>>>>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some
>>>>>>> legally,
>>>>>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>>>>> forgiving.
>>
>> Don't you DARE ****ing include my ancestors with this group! My grandfather
>> and grandmother came here a year apart from Poland in 1913 and 1914. They
>> had the clothes on their backs, the money in their pockets, and one small
>> suitcase each. They found work. They met and married. They started
>> learning English, and started studying for citizenship. They were made
>> citizens BEFORE having their first child. They had five. They forbade
>> their children from speaking Polish in the house, although the kids would do
>> it on the sly, and paying the price of corporal punishment if caught. Every
>> one of the boys served in WW2. The two women married and had great
>> children. They were legal US citizens, and just people who observed the
>> law. So don't give me that happy liberal horseshit line. My ancestors were
>> two classes and a huge step ahead of this human garbage that is rotting out
>> system and services from within, learning to leech on the system and being
>> proud of it. Either that, or too lazy to work, and getting money from
>> illegal activities.
>>
>> Asshole.
>>
>> Steve
>
>yeah, and my ancestors were white!
>
>blake

And you felt the need to bring racism into what he said because?

I hardly ever killfile threads but I'm outta this one. Too many
cooking threads that make better use of my time. Catch up with you in
another thread.

Lou

"blake murphy" > wrote in message
> well, the illegals using a fake social security number are paying that and
> f.i.c.a. taxes that they will never recover. so there is that.
>
> your pal,
> blake

Good. It makes up for some of the other services they are stealing that
they don't pay taxes for.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 11:54:40 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:32:41 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>>
>>> Gloria P wrote:
>>>> islation. About damn time.
>>>>>
>>>>> nb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow
>>>> and pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?
>>>
>>> I think the issue is more of legal migrant labor vs ILLEGAL alien
>>> labor.
>>>
>>>> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
>>>> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.
>>>
>>> In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify
>>> documents, which many times involves identity theft.
>>>
>>>> And since they aren't
>>>> legal, they can't claim refunds.
>>>
>>> Which is ok with me. It has been demonstrated that ILLEGAL aliens
>>> (not legal migrant laborers) are a negative drain on social services.
>>
>> i think i would like to see a cite on that. it is widely bandied
>> about, but i don't think it has been demonstrated. cheap labor
>> usually provides benefits to *somebody*.
>
> Feel free to use google. I researched the information a long while ago and
> haven't kept it at my fingertips. The info is valid, but feel free to prove
> it wrong. Keep in mind that much of the accusations surrounding negative
> drain among migrants did not seperate legal vs illegal which is the big
> mistake. I speak only of illegals. As to the benefits of cheap labor, such
> benefit usually stops at the employer and his overhead expenditures.
> Fortunately, that (illegals being employed) has been aggressively pursued
> for the last 18 months. And in the case of the large manufacturers being
> busted, long lines of Americans and legal migrants were lined up to take
> those jobs.
>

The Washington Post, in a June 4, 2007 editorial article titled "Immigrants
Equal Growth... Reform Isn't Just Humane. It's Self-Interest," offered the
following:

"Amid the blizzard of data concerning immigrants' effects on wages,
welfare and municipal budgets, the essential point is this: The latest wave
of immigrants -- legal and illegal, skilled and unskilled -- has stimulated
enormous economic activity and wealth generation in this country, and it is
implausible that the American economy would fare as well without them...

Since most immigrants come when they are young and working... they tend
not to collect Social Security or Medicare for many years -- even while
paying into the systems with payroll taxes, in many cases with phony Social
Security numbers (meaning they will contribute but not collect). In fact,
illegal immigrants do not get federal welfare benefits of any kind. At the
same time they often pay income tax (through paycheck withholdings) and
sales tax, thereby helping directly or indirectly to underwrite
transportation, health care, education and other services.

And while immigrants surely have contributed to some extent to the
ranks of the poor, that was also true of previous waves of immigrants; the
point is, most of those immigrants didn't stay poor."

June 4, 2007 - Washington Post

....so illegals do not qualify for many of the 'social services' you say
they are draining. most would be too terrified of being deported to even
apply for them.

>>> As an aside, the
>>> number of illegals has been drastically declining over the past 18
>>> months due to the influence of state laws, increased ICE activity,
>>> and public backlash. The number of LEGAL migrants has been making up
>>> the deficit, and has increased in the agricultural industries.
>>> American citizens are more and more willing to become employed in
>>> the construction and other skilled manual trades, which has been
>>> pushing out illegals by the droves and even replacing the legals. A
>>> side effect of a tightened job market.
>>
>> i would also like to see a cite for that. how many american citizens
>> do you think are out there picking lettuce?
>
> Uh, how do you get picking lettuce out of my talking about skilled trades?

yes, i was careless in my reading of your post, there. my apologies.

> But as point of fact, all one needs to do is look at the increased number of
> ag employers applying for and utilizing the H2-A program because of the loss
> of the illegal market. In my area, which is the heaviest apple, pear, peach,
> apricot and cherry producing area in the nation, the only migrant laborers
> are those under the various temporary visa programs. 5 years ago, illegals
> made up a large proportion of the labor market. ICE is now a constant
> presence doing spot checks on documentation of both the laborer and the
> farmer.
>
> Illegal labor will continue to be a fact of life, but it is far less the
> norm than before. And as employers continue to face jail and are heavily
> fined (how the equivalent of year's worth of production?), illegal labor
> will become negligible as a part of the overall work force.

it's hard to tell how things will shake out. with so much money involved,
special interests will no doubt be disproportionately heard from.

in any case, rounding them all up and shipping them back to where they came
from isn't really an option (not saying that you favor this, just saying).

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:17:11 -0600, Gregory Morrow wrote:

> blake murphy wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 15:32:41 -0800, Dave Bugg wrote:
>>
>>> Gloria P wrote:
>>>> islation. About damn time.
>>>>>
>>>>> nb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are yu saying that California DOESN'T need immigrant labor to grow and
>>>> pick fruit, vegetables, and th9ings like wine grapes?
>>>
>>> I think the issue is more of legal migrant labor vs ILLEGAL alien labor.
>>>
>>>> Believe it or not, many illegals do pay taxes if they work for a
>>>> reputable employer and aren't paid in cash.
>>>
>>> In order to do so, however, illegals have to forge and falsify
> documents,
>>> which many times involves identity theft.
>>>
>>>> And since they aren't
>>>> legal, they can't claim refunds.
>>>
>>> Which is ok with me. It has been demonstrated that ILLEGAL aliens (not
> legal
>>> migrant laborers) are a negative drain on social services.
>>
>> i think i would like to see a cite on that. it is widely bandied about,
>> but i don't think it has been demonstrated. cheap labor usually provides
>> benefits to *somebody*.
>
> Why do you think states like Kalifornia are dead broke, blake? Illegals
> are a HUGE drain on the social welfare spending (schools, hospitals, etc.)
> of many states...not to mention ballooning law enforcement costs, the costs
> to build new prisons, etc.
>

illegal immigrants cannot collect welfare. they must be treated in
emergency rooms, that much is true, along with all the citizens who don't
have health insurance. and i doubt there's much of an illegal immigration
population in jails, since they would be deported.

> My backwoods rural home county in Western Illannoy is planning to build a
> new jail. The old one is only 25 years old, but they are getting funding to
> buy a new one to hold well over 100 prisoners (the county only has 16,000
> peeps in total). Where will these prisoners come from?

see above.

blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:26:24 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:52:52 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 02:44:59 -0700, SteveB wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>> But they AREN'T demons, Lou. They're dirt poor people who were born
>>>>>>>> in a country that gives them no opportunity and no hope. Our
>>>>>>>> ancestors
>>>>>>>> were lucky enough to have gotten here at an earlier time, some
>>>>>>>> legally,
>>>>>>>> some illegally, when things were less complicated and society more
>>>>>>>> forgiving.
>>>
>>> Don't you DARE ****ing include my ancestors with this group! My grandfather
>>> and grandmother came here a year apart from Poland in 1913 and 1914. They
>>> had the clothes on their backs, the money in their pockets, and one small
>>> suitcase each. They found work. They met and married. They started
>>> learning English, and started studying for citizenship. They were made
>>> citizens BEFORE having their first child. They had five. They forbade
>>> their children from speaking Polish in the house, although the kids would do
>>> it on the sly, and paying the price of corporal punishment if caught. Every
>>> one of the boys served in WW2. The two women married and had great
>>> children. They were legal US citizens, and just people who observed the
>>> law. So don't give me that happy liberal horseshit line. My ancestors were
>>> two classes and a huge step ahead of this human garbage that is rotting out
>>> system and services from within, learning to leech on the system and being
>>> proud of it. Either that, or too lazy to work, and getting money from
>>> illegal activities.
>>>
>>> Asshole.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>yeah, and my ancestors were white!
>>
>>blake
>
> And you felt the need to bring racism into what he said because?
>

what color are most of the illegal immigrants that people are bitching
about, lou?

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 15:48:49 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:59:49 GMT, blake murphy
> > wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 00:33:55 -0600, Lou Decruss wrote:
>
>>i see no evidence that the job *of being president* is beyond him. i don't
>>see how you can judge him as failing that job after *one month* in office.
>>
>>the 'large jobs' i was referring to are largely the cluster****s bequeathed
>>to him by george the lesser.
>>
>>your exasperated pal,
>>blake
>
> <laugh> At least we're still pals.
>
> Lou

be glad we're not so close that i would stage an intervention.

your pal,
blake

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:36:57 -0500, Mort Adella wrote:

> "blake murphy" > wrote in message
>> well, the illegals using a fake social security number are paying that and
>> f.i.c.a. taxes that they will never recover. so there is that.
>>
>> your pal,
>> blake
>
> Good. It makes up for some of the other services they are stealing that
> they don't pay taxes for.

what services that they aren't paying for? if their taxes are being
withheld, they don't see that money again.

blake

blake murphy wrote:

> The Washington Post, in a June 4, 2007 editorial article titled
> "Immigrants Equal Growth... Reform Isn't Just Humane. It's
> Self-Interest," offered the following:

I appreciate the offering, Blake, but it is an editiorial opinion. It also
attempts to blur the distinction that I have made: it mixes illegal aliens
with legal migrant workers. I have always contended that legal migrants with
the required legal documentation are a net addition to the economy when
employee shortages place business productivity in jeopardy.

Focusing on illegals in Aug, 2004, the Washington Post reported this story:

Illegal Immigrants' Cost to Government Studied By Mary Fitzgerald Washington
Post Staff Writer
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2004Aug25.html
[begin quote]
"Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in
costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes,
creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal
household," said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
The costs outlined in the report include government services such as
Medicaid, medical treatment for the uninsured, food assistance programs, the
federal prison and court systems, and federal aid to schools.
The study acknowledged that, on average, the costs that illegal-immigrant
households bear on the federal government are less than half that of other
households, and that many of those costs relate to their U.S.-born children.
It also pointed out that tax payments by illegal-immigrant households
constitute one-fourth those of other households because of low-income jobs.
[end quote]

>> Uh, how do you get picking lettuce out of my talking about skilled
>> trades?

> yes, i was careless in my reading of your post, there. my apologies.

No biggie. It happens to me all the time :-)

> it's hard to tell how things will shake out. with so much money
> involved, special interests will no doubt be disproportionately heard
> from.

You have a point, there. But it seems that ICE and the Border Patrol have
tremendously stepped up their efforts over the last 4 years, and have been
an routine presence amongst the Washington-Oregon Ag industries (you should
have heard the screams of the farmers, which have fallen on deaf ears. The
farmers are now taking full advantage of temporary migrant labor
applications instead of ignoring the process).

> in any case, rounding them all up and shipping them back to where
> they came from isn't really an option (not saying that you favor
> this, just saying).

I agree with that. It shouldn't be a primary focus, nor is it needed. As
illegals find their job opportunities drying up, they will return home on
their own and apply for the relevant visas so that they have the ability to
work above-board. It then continues the pressure on scum-bag employers to
pay the appropriate wages, eventually ending this form of near slavery.

--
Dave
What is best in life? "To crush your enemies, see them driven before
you, and to hear the lamentation of the women." -- Conan

blake murphy;2819654 Wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 21:36:57 -0500, Mort Adella wrote:
>
> > "blake murphy" <blakepmNOTTHIS@> wrote in message
> >> well, the illegals using a fake social security number are paying
> that and
> >> f.i.c.a. taxes that they will never recover. so there is that.
> >>
> >> your pal,
> >> blake
> >
> > Good. It makes up for some of the other services they are stealing
> that
> > they don't pay taxes for.
>
> what services that they aren't paying for? if their taxes are being
> withheld, they don't see that money again.
>
> blake
Most work under the table. No taxes and they are getting all kinds of
government assistance.


--
Dymphna
Message Origin: TRAVEL.com

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 18:47:21 GMT, blake murphy
> wrote:

>how many american citizens do you think are out there picking lettuce?

I'd say it's slim to none.



--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 14:17:11 -0600, "Gregory Morrow"
> wrote:

>Why do you think states like Kalifornia are dead broke, blake? Illegals
>are a HUGE drain on the social welfare spending (schools, hospitals, etc.)
>of many states...not to mention ballooning law enforcement costs, the costs
>to build new prisons, etc.

It's more than that. Illegals try to stay under the radar as much as
possible. We have generational welfare recipients and the gainfully
employed who are under grossly under-insured (or just plain uninsured)
that are the major drain.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West

On 2009-02-26, sf > wrote:

> ......the gainfully
> employed who are under grossly under-insured (or just plain uninsured)
> that are the major drain.

How in the World are gainfully employed ppl who MAY be underinsured a
drain? What, cuz they can't get medical insurance, they are a drain?
That's the system, not a choice of their own.

nb

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 04:33:16 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2009-02-26, sf > wrote:
>
>> ......the gainfully
>> employed who are under grossly under-insured (or just plain uninsured)
>> that are the major drain.
>
>How in the World are gainfully employed ppl who MAY be underinsured a
>drain? What, cuz they can't get medical insurance, they are a drain?
>That's the system, not a choice of their own.
>
Anyone who can't pay is a drain.


--
I never worry about diets. The only carrots that
interest me are the number of carats in a diamond.

Mae West