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General Cooking (rec.food.cooking) For general food and cooking discussion. Foods of all kinds, food procurement, cooking methods and techniques, eating, etc. |
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Damsel in dis Dress wrote:
> > Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked > for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all > over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC > site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. > > I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue > or not. > > What do people think? I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. > > Carol, opening a can of worms > -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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ChattyCathy wrote:
> Damsel in dis Dress wrote: >> Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked >> for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all >> over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC >> site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. >> >> I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue >> or not. >> >> What do people think? > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. I'm in the mood for the brain locker, but I should say that I read the second question in the subjunctive and didn't notice the third options, so I said "no". In these discussions, I'm always in favor of giving out recipes for free. I'm often on the minority side of the argument, but it's how I feel. My cooking is a part of the gift economy, and if I can find recipes I think will add joy to the world, I choose to give them away. That's not to say it's wrong to charge for a recipe book, but that if I contributed one (or ten) recipe(s) to a book by a group of friends in a not-for-profit venture, and there was a way to do it for free, I'd support that. Serene -- 42 Magazine, celebrating life with meaning. Inaugural issue March '09! http://42magazine.com "I am an agnostic only to the extent that I am agnostic about fairies at the bottom of the garden." -- Richard Dawkins |
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![]() "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message ... > Damsel in dis Dress wrote: >> >> Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked >> for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all >> over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC >> site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. >> >> I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue >> or not. >> >> What do people think? > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. >> >> Carol, opening a can of worms >> > -- > Cheers > Chatty Cathy The original publication was to raise money for charity. I'd like to see that continued, even if only a buck, if it is in PDF or other downloadable format. It could be accompanies by links to a few charities or food banks. While not easily enforced, the honor system may be enough for most people. |
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> The original publication was to raise money for charity. I'd like to see > that continued, even if only a buck, if it is in PDF or other downloadable > format. It could be accompanies by links to a few charities or food > banks. While not easily enforced, the honor system may be enough for most > people. I would most certainly make a donation to my local food bank if I downloaded a copy of the cookbook. I make frequent donations anyway, so one more wouldn't break my pocketbook. -- Janet Wilder Way-the-heck-south-Texas |
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> The original publication was to raise money for charity. I'd like to > see that continued, even if only a buck, if it is in PDF or other > downloadable > format. It could be accompanies by links to a few charities or food > banks. While not easily enforced, the honor system may be enough for > most people. Now that's not a bad idea, IMHO. The RFC Cookbook was before my time on this group - but I've done a bit of googling and from what I've read, it was not exactly a 'cake walk' for those concerned in getting it compiled and then published. I also have no idea how much was eventually made for charity; maybe Nancy/Damsel/Victor could tell us? -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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ChattyCathy wrote:
> The RFC Cookbook was before my time on this group - but I've done a > bit of googling and from what I've read, it was not exactly a 'cake > walk' for those concerned in getting it compiled and then published. > I also have no idea how much was eventually made for charity; maybe > Nancy/Damsel/Victor could tell us? It was in the neighborhood of $7,500. nancy |
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On 2009-03-08, ChattyCathy > wrote:
> > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. Forget the old rfc cookbook. It's everywhere. If a recipe is good enough, it's already gone to general web circulation. If we wanna argue/discuss something, lets discuss a 2nd book. I think an rfc pdf cookbook is an excellent idea. This is a free and open newsgroup. There's no reason why a 2nd cookbook shouldn't be, also. nb |
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On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 11:05:34 -0700, Serene Vannoy
> wrote: >I should say that I read the >second question in the subjunctive and didn't notice the third options, >so I said "no". So it's only one vote against - maybe that one is like you and really should be an n/a. -- I never worry about diets. The only carrots that interest me are the number of carats in a diamond. Mae West |
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On 2009-03-08, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
> The original publication was to raise money for charity. I'd like to see > that continued.... That's one vote for. I disagree, as stated in my other post. nb |
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On 2009-03-08, Omelet > wrote:
> I generally just donate food... I also, Om. If ppl want to make donations, let them choose their favorite charity and do so. Trying to get everyone to agree on a common cause donation is counterproductive and not the purpose of rfc. nb |
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On Sun, 8 Mar 2009 14:05:56 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski" >
wrote: >The original publication was to raise money for charity. I'd like to see >that continued, even if only a buck, if it is in PDF or other downloadable >format. It could be accompanies by links to a few charities or food >banks. While not easily enforced, the honor system may be enough for most >people. I think if it's going on the web site, it should be freely available and that also means free of guilt. -- I never worry about diets. The only carrots that interest me are the number of carats in a diamond. Mae West |
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![]() "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message ... > Damsel in dis Dress wrote: >> >> Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked >> for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all >> over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC >> site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. >> >> I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue >> or not. >> >> What do people think? > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. >> >> Carol, opening a can of worms >> > -- > Cheers > Chatty Cathy The RFC cookbook is copyrighted from 2002- It is not clear from the inside just who owns the copyright. Dimitri |
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Dimitri wrote:
> > "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message > ... > > > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. > The RFC cookbook is copyrighted from 2002- It is not clear from the inside > just who owns the copyright. > > Dimitri The Cabal (TINC)? Sky -- Ultra Ultimate Kitchen Rule - Use the Timer! Ultimate Kitchen Rule -- Cook's Choice |
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Nancy Young wrote:
> ChattyCathy wrote: > >> The RFC Cookbook was before my time on this group - but I've done a >> bit of googling and from what I've read, it was not exactly a 'cake >> walk' for those concerned in getting it compiled and then published. >> I also have no idea how much was eventually made for charity; maybe >> Nancy/Damsel/Victor could tell us? > > It was in the neighborhood of $7,500. > > nancy Heh. That's pretty darn good. So you must have had about five or six hundred copies printed? -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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In article >,
ChattyCathy > wrote: > Damsel in dis Dress wrote: > > > > Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked > > for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all > > over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC > > site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. > > > > I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue > > or not. > > > > What do people think? > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. > > > > Carol, opening a can of worms > > Quick and easy. :-) -- Peace! Om I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe. -- Dalai Lama |
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In article >,
Janet Wilder > wrote: > Ed Pawlowski wrote: > > > The original publication was to raise money for charity. I'd like to see > > that continued, even if only a buck, if it is in PDF or other downloadable > > format. It could be accompanies by links to a few charities or food > > banks. While not easily enforced, the honor system may be enough for most > > people. > > I would most certainly make a donation to my local food bank if I > downloaded a copy of the cookbook. I make frequent donations anyway, so > one more wouldn't break my pocketbook. I generally just donate food... -- Peace! Om I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe. -- Dalai Lama |
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ChattyCathy wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote: > >> ChattyCathy wrote: >> >>> The RFC Cookbook was before my time on this group - but I've done a >>> bit of googling and from what I've read, it was not exactly a 'cake >>> walk' for those concerned in getting it compiled and then published. >>> I also have no idea how much was eventually made for charity; maybe >>> Nancy/Damsel/Victor could tell us? >> >> It was in the neighborhood of $7,500. > Heh. That's pretty darn good. It was quite a success. Hats off to rfc. > So you must have had about five or six hundred copies printed? You'd think it would be seared in my memory, but no. We did have to do a second printing. Maybe it was 400, then another 200. That's such a guess. Doing the math, I think it would have to have been more like 700 total. nancy |
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![]() "Sky" > wrote in message ... > Dimitri wrote: >> >> "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message >> ... >> > >> > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC >> > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. > >> The RFC cookbook is copyrighted from 2002- It is not clear from the >> inside >> just who owns the copyright. >> >> Dimitri > > The Cabal (TINC)? > > Sky > > -- > Ultra Ultimate Kitchen Rule - Use the Timer! > Ultimate Kitchen Rule -- Cook's Choice Here is what it says - and I quote Copyright © rec.food.cooking 2002. All services in production of this book were donated. Except for reproduction and mailing costs, all monies received from the sale of this book were donated to City Harvest (a new York City affiliate of Second Harvest) : no profits were made by rec.food.cooning. |
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![]() "Dimitri" > wrote in message ... > Harvest) : no profits were made by rec.food.cooning. LOL Cooking. Dimitri (ready to take a proofreading class) |
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![]() "Dimitri" > wrote in message ... > > "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message > ... >> Damsel in dis Dress wrote: >>> >>> Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked >>> for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all >>> over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC >>> site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. >>> >>> I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue >>> or not. >>> >>> What do people think? >> >> I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC >> site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. >>> >>> Carol, opening a can of worms >>> >> -- >> Cheers >> Chatty Cathy > > > The RFC cookbook is copyrighted from 2002- It is not clear from the > inside just who owns the copyright. > > Dimitri All those who contributed contents, that's who... no others have anything to say. At the time the rfc cookbook was still in process a poll was taken as to how many books would be produced, based in part on how many each said they'd order, and extras for those who may decide to order. There was also a great furor over whether to make an electronic version available and it was decided there would be none in any foremat. It was decided that in the future that if if others wanted another edition then they could do their own, but under no circumstances would the original ever be made available electronically... at the time all those involved agreed... now it is plain that many a word ain't worth the price of used TP. |
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Nancy Young wrote:
> ChattyCathy wrote: >> Nancy Young wrote: >> >>> ChattyCathy wrote: >>> >>>> The RFC Cookbook was before my time on this group - but I've done a >>>> bit of googling and from what I've read, it was not exactly a 'cake >>>> walk' for those concerned in getting it compiled and then >>>> published. I also have no idea how much was eventually made for >>>> charity; maybe Nancy/Damsel/Victor could tell us? >>> >>> It was in the neighborhood of $7,500. > >> Heh. That's pretty darn good. > > It was quite a success. Hats off to rfc. > >> So you must have had about five or six hundred copies printed? > > You'd think it would be seared in my memory, but no. We did > have to do a second printing. Maybe it was 400, then another > 200. That's such a guess. Doing the math, I think it would have > to have been more like 700 total. Wow, 700 copies; that leaves $200 for printing, binding and shipping. If you still have the contact details for those printers, I have some other stuff that I'd like to publish, and if that's all it's gonna cost me, it suddenly becomes affordable... -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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brooklyn1 wrote:
> All those who contributed contents, that's who... no others have > anything to say. So Sheldon, which recipe(s) did you contribute? -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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On 2009-03-08, Dimitri > wrote:
> Copyright © rec.food.cooking 2002. Where's my royalty checks? nb |
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Dimitri wrote:
> > "Sky" > wrote in message > ... >> Dimitri wrote: >>> >>> "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message >>> ... >>> > >>> > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the >>> > RFC site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. >> >>> The RFC cookbook is copyrighted from 2002- It is not clear from the >>> inside >>> just who owns the copyright. >>> >>> Dimitri >> >> The Cabal (TINC)? >> >> Sky >> >> -- >> Ultra Ultimate Kitchen Rule - Use the Timer! >> Ultimate Kitchen Rule -- Cook's Choice > > Here is what it says - and I quote > > Copyright © rec.food.cooking 2002. Ahem. I have © 2009 rec.food.cooking (TINC) on the RFC site. Which also has about as much legal clout as a wet fish. > > All services in production of this book were donated. Except for > reproduction and mailing costs, all monies received from the sale of > this book were donated to City Harvest (a new York City affiliate of > Second Harvest) : no profits were made by rec.food.cooning. Heh. I just love typos. -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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notbob wrote:
> On 2009-03-08, Dimitri > wrote: > >> Copyright © rec.food.cooking 2002. > > Where's my royalty checks? > > nb They're in the mail. -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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ChattyCathy wrote:
> Nancy Young wrote: >>>> It was in the neighborhood of $7,500. >> >>> Heh. That's pretty darn good. >> >> It was quite a success. Hats off to rfc. >> >>> So you must have had about five or six hundred copies printed? >> >> You'd think it would be seared in my memory, but no. We did >> have to do a second printing. Maybe it was 400, then another >> 200. That's such a guess. Doing the math, I think it would have >> to have been more like 700 total. > > Wow, 700 copies; that leaves $200 for printing, binding and shipping. > If you still have the contact details for those printers, I have some > other stuff that I'd like to publish, and if that's all it's gonna > cost me, it suddenly becomes affordable... No, that's not right at all. It cost much more than $200. I'm not sure where you came up with that number. Also, any calculations would have to take into account that there were people who donated $ to the effort. And you'd be relying on my hazy memory of the details. And, you have to pay the printers for shipping, I am sure you'd be better off finding a place near you rather than in California. nancy |
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![]() "ChattyCathy" wrote: > brooklyn1 wrote: > >> All those who contributed contents, that's who... no others have >> anything to say. > > So Sheldon, which recipe(s) did you contribute? > > So Cathy, you're doubting I contributed.. you trying to say I couldn't, what... You can read em for yourself... as I posted earlier I have some spare copies available only US$1,100 each + S&H (hey, they're collectibles) how many did you say you'd like? Yoose should be embarrased tagging onto a book yoose had not a whit to do with, and couldn't even if you wanted to. Polling people who weren't born yet (didn't contribute) is presumptuous to the max, got a lotta nerve. Anyone wants something to say get yer own stinkin' book. It won't be easy... yoose won't wanna give yours away. Anyway, yoose just wanna glom on for a free ride (yoose inept cheapo bastids) I seriously doubt the majority who comprise rfc now are capable... there's a challenge for yoose. |
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In article >,
Sky > wrote: > Dimitri wrote: > > > > "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message > > ... > > > > > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > > > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. > > > The RFC cookbook is copyrighted from 2002- It is not clear from the inside > > just who owns the copyright. > > > > Dimitri > > The Cabal (TINC)? > > Sky <laughs> -- Peace! Om I find hope in the darkest of days, and focus in the brightest. I do not judge the universe. -- Dalai Lama |
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brooklyn1 wrote:
> > "ChattyCathy" wrote: >> brooklyn1 wrote: >> >>> All those who contributed contents, that's who... no others have >>> anything to say. >> >> So Sheldon, which recipe(s) did you contribute? >> >> > So Cathy, you're doubting I contributed.. you trying to say I > couldn't, what... Tsk, tsk, tsk. Don't get all 'iffy', please. I was just asking which recipes you contributed. I don't have a copy of 'the RFC Cookbook', because it was published before I subscribed to r.f.c. (as you well know). However if it was available on-line, we wouldn't be having this discussion, now would we? And no, I'm not prepared to pay US$1,100 for a copy, even if you autographed it personally :P -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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Nancy Young wrote:
> ChattyCathy wrote: >> Nancy Young wrote: > >>>>> It was in the neighborhood of $7,500. >>> >>>> Heh. That's pretty darn good. >>> >>> It was quite a success. Hats off to rfc. >>> >>>> So you must have had about five or six hundred copies printed? >>> >>> You'd think it would be seared in my memory, but no. We did >>> have to do a second printing. Maybe it was 400, then another >>> 200. That's such a guess. Doing the math, I think it would have >>> to have been more like 700 total. >> >> Wow, 700 copies; that leaves $200 for printing, binding and shipping. >> If you still have the contact details for those printers, I have some >> other stuff that I'd like to publish, and if that's all it's gonna >> cost me, it suddenly becomes affordable... > > No, that's not right at all. It cost much more than $200. I'm > not sure where you came up with that number. Also, any > calculations would have to take into account that there were > people who donated $ to the effort. And you'd be relying on > my hazy memory of the details. > I worked it out at $11.00 per copy for 700 copies, which would have amounted to $7700.00. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...3?dmode=source However, if folks donated more than the $11.00 per copy, that makes perfect sense. > And, you have to pay the printers for shipping, I am sure you'd > be better off finding a place near you rather than in California. <laugh> Not likely. The printers 'round here charge a fortune for printing anything; it may well work out cheaper for me to email the PDF to CA and have them send the printed matter out to the addressees (and charge said addressees for the P&P) ;-) -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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On Mar 8, 1:13*pm, ChattyCathy > wrote:
> brooklyn1 wrote: > > >>> All those who contributed contents, that's who... no others have > >>> anything to say. He has a valid point here -- if contributors object, it shouldn't be reproduced. -aem |
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"ChattyCathy" > wrote in message
... > Damsel in dis Dress wrote: >> >> Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked >> for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all >> over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC >> site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. >> >> I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue >> or not. >> >> What do people think? > > I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC > site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. >> >> Carol, opening a can of worms >> > -- > Cheers > Chatty Cathy I think enough time has passed, the "statute of limitations" (so to speak) has run out. Nancy isn't collecting money anymore to contribute to the charity. The money was contributed, the project shut down. What difference does it make now? Jill |
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![]() "jmcquown" > wrote in message ... > "ChattyCathy" > wrote in message > ... >> Damsel in dis Dress wrote: >>> >>> Damn, damn, and damn! If I had remembered this, I would have asked >>> for a halt to the postings immediately. The group is archived all >>> over the internet. The PDF file, if it's made available on the RFC >>> site, will be mass distributed. Count on it. >>> >>> I don't know if so much time has passed that it's become a non-issue >>> or not. >>> >>> What do people think? >> >> I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC >> site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. >>> >>> Carol, opening a can of worms >>> >> -- >> Cheers >> Chatty Cathy > > > I think enough time has passed, the "statute of limitations" (so to speak) > has run out. Nancy isn't collecting money anymore to contribute to the > charity. The money was contributed, the project shut down. What > difference does it make now? > > Jill The statute of limitations on the copywrite still has quite a ways to go. The difference it makes to give away the original book is it's an affront to all those who labored long and hard, and then there will be absolutely no motivation for all the newbies to do their own stinkin' book (not that they could)... da moochin' BUMS! LOL |
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"notbob" > wrote in message
... > On 2009-03-08, Omelet > wrote: > >> I generally just donate food... > > I also, Om. If ppl want to make donations, let them choose their favorite > charity and do so. Trying to get everyone to agree on a common cause > donation is > counterproductive and not the purpose of rfc. > > nb I guess you weren't around back then, nb (don't ask me to go look up Google posts in 2001, please). The idea for the cookbook and donations to charity was proposed in the aftermath of 9/11 and to the families and victims thereof. The common cause donation was agreed upon relatively easily. It was how to get the damn (heh) thing published that created some dissention in the group. But in the end, it got done. And done very well! Kudos to you all! Jill |
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On Mar 8, 12:59*pm, notbob > wrote:
> On 2009-03-08, Omelet > wrote: > > > I generally just donate food... > > I also, Om. *If ppl want to make donations, let them choose their favorite > charity and do so. *Trying to get everyone to agree on a common cause donation is > counterproductive and not the purpose of rfc. * > > nb I've been around since the first book but I was a newbie. Don't have a copy, didn't contribute any recipes. I always give my recipes to anybody who wants them. I'm slightly less than perfectly organized and I've lost too many that I had to track down! Lynn in Fargo |
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brooklyn1 wrote:
> > The statute of limitations on the copywrite still has quite a ways to > go. The difference it makes to give away the original book is it's an > affront to all those who labored long and hard, and then there will be > absolutely no motivation for all the newbies to do their own stinkin' > book (not that they could)... da moochin' BUMS! LOL I will ask you again... how many recipes did you contribute? -- Cheers Chatty Cathy |
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Lynn from Fargo Ografmorffig wrote:
> On Mar 8, 12:59 pm, notbob > wrote: >> On 2009-03-08, Omelet > wrote: >> >>> I generally just donate food... >> I also, Om. If ppl want to make donations, let them choose their favorite >> charity and do so. Trying to get everyone to agree on a common cause donation is >> counterproductive and not the purpose of rfc. >> >> nb > > I've been around since the first book but I was a newbie. Don't have a > copy, didn't contribute any recipes. I always give my recipes to > anybody who wants them. I'm slightly less than perfectly organized > and I've lost too many that I had to track down! > Lynn in Fargo Same here. I was lurking and not posting back then. AAMOF, I have undoubtedly lurked here much, much longer than I've posted. I was interested in the cook book, but I would have had to "surface" and the logistics of participating were difficult at the time because I was never in one place more than a few days at a time because we were living in our RV. -- Janet Wilder Way-the-heck-south-Texas |
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"notbob" > wrote in message
... > On 2009-03-08, ChattyCathy > wrote: >> >> I have taken the liberty of putting up a survey about this on the RFC >> site. Of course there are no 'maybes' or 'MCINLs' in this one. > > Forget the old rfc cookbook. It's everywhere. If a recipe is good > enough, > it's already gone to general web circulation. If we wanna argue/discuss > something, lets discuss a 2nd book. I think an rfc pdf cookbook is an > excellent idea. This is a free and open newsgroup. There's no reason why > a > 2nd cookbook shouldn't be, also. > > nb nb, the first book was for charity. Right after 9/11. To benefit the families of those left behind. Soak up as many of those recipes as you want. But publishing a new one online for FREE would defeat the purpose. Jill |
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On Sun, 08 Mar 2009 23:49:11 +0200, ChattyCathy
> wrote: wrote: > >> On Mar 8, 1:13*pm, ChattyCathy > wrote: >>> brooklyn1 wrote: >>> >>> >>> All those who contributed contents, that's who... no others have >>> >>> anything to say. >> >> He has a valid point here -- if contributors object, it shouldn't be >> reproduced. -aem > >Fair enough. But I am still want to know if Sheldon actually did >contribute any recipes to the RFC Cookbook. He didn't answer my >question. And forgive me for being a bit insistent about this, but IME, >Sheldon has always been one of those "I don't need recipes to cook >anything" people... Sheldon Martin (Penmart) has at lest two recipes in the RFC cookbook. Lou |
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