The Safeway corned beef package I'm about to cook says to steam it, rather
than braise it. Have any tried it? I've never tried it. I know Pete, above,
does it routinely. If you're using a heavily salted corned beef I'd think
you'd end up with something too salty. If you have done this, do you brown
the brisket first? I've been browning the brisket when I braise and it makes
quite a difference. You could also use beer in your steaming liquid, though
I doubt that it would make any difference.
TIA,

Ed

Theron wrote:
>
> The Safeway corned beef package I'm about to cook says to steam it, rather
> than braise it. Have any tried it? I've never tried it. I know Pete, above,
> does it routinely. If you're using a heavily salted corned beef I'd think
> you'd end up with something too salty. If you have done this, do you brown
> the brisket first? I've been browning the brisket when I braise and it makes
> quite a difference. You could also use beer in your steaming liquid, though
> I doubt that it would make any difference.
> TIA,
>
> Ed

Baking it is not steaming it. The water in the pan is mostly to keep the
drippings from burning, not for steam.

Theron > wrote:

> The Safeway corned beef package I'm about to cook says to steam it, rather
> than braise it. Have any tried it? I've never tried it. I know Pete, above,
> does it routinely. If you're using a heavily salted corned beef I'd think
> you'd end up with something too salty. If you have done this, do you brown
> the brisket first? I've been browning the brisket when I braise and it makes
> quite a difference. You could also use beer in your steaming liquid, though
> I doubt that it would make any difference.
> TIA,

I haven't tried the steaming (sound legit - better than simmering),
but just know that different brands of corned beef have differing
amounts of salt. One may have 3x as much salt as another. The only
way to know is to always buy the same brand, or test fry a little
price first. Some do not need any desalting. Some are still too
salty after several soaks.

Or corn your own, which is what I did this year.

-sw

"Sqwertz" > wrote in message
...
> Theron > wrote:
>
>> The Safeway corned beef package I'm about to cook says to steam it,
>> rather
>> than braise it. Have any tried it? I've never tried it. I know Pete,
>> above,
>> does it routinely. If you're using a heavily salted corned beef I'd think
>> you'd end up with something too salty. If you have done this, do you
>> brown
>> the brisket first? I've been browning the brisket when I braise and it
>> makes
>> quite a difference. You could also use beer in your steaming liquid,
>> though
>> I doubt that it would make any difference.
>> TIA,
>
> I haven't tried the steaming (sound legit - better than simmering),
> but just know that different brands of corned beef have differing
> amounts of salt. One may have 3x as much salt as another. The only
> way to know is to always buy the same brand, or test fry a little
> price first. Some do not need any desalting. Some are still too
> salty after several soaks.
>
> Or corn your own, which is what I did this year.
>
> -sw

The safeway product above suggested steaming. We'll see what it ends up
like. Hopefully not
too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you use
nitrite? Did you inject?

Ed

Theron > wrote:

> The safeway product above suggested steaming. We'll see what it ends up
> like. Hopefully not
> too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you use
> nitrite? Did you inject?

I heated water and simmered a bunch of fresh bay leaf, mustard
seends, cloves, coriander, garlic and peppercorns. I then watered
that down with a 3 quarts of cold water and added kosher salt until
I had the right amount (I do all my brines by taste - so don't ask
how much salt I used).

Then I trimmed the point off the flat and cut the flat into 2. Each
half of the flat went into a gallon ziplock with half the brine and
a tablespoon of Instacure #1. Brined for 3 days and came out
perfect.

Longer brining for a 2-2.5" thick flat is unnecessary - some recipes
tell you 7-10 days, which is BS, even if the point was still
attached)

-sw

Theron > wrote:

> too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you use
> nitrite? Did you inject?

BTW, I would only inject meat if it was over 3.5-4" thick at any
given point.

-sw

"Sqwertz" > wrote in message
...
> Theron > wrote:
>
>> The safeway product above suggested steaming. We'll see what it ends up
>> like. Hopefully not
>> too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you
>> use
>> nitrite? Did you inject?
>
> I heated water and simmered a bunch of fresh bay leaf, mustard
> seends, cloves, coriander, garlic and peppercorns. I then watered
> that down with a 3 quarts of cold water and added kosher salt until
> I had the right amount (I do all my brines by taste - so don't ask
> how much salt I used).
>
> Then I trimmed the point off the flat and cut the flat into 2. Each
> half of the flat went into a gallon ziplock with half the brine and
> a tablespoon of Instacure #1. Brined for 3 days and came out
> perfect.
>
> Longer brining for a 2-2.5" thick flat is unnecessary - some recipes
> tell you 7-10 days, which is BS, even if the point was still
> attached)
>
> -sw

Sorry, dwarf, but brining ain't corning... brining meat must be some kinda
moron redneck thang... you brine cucumbers and cabbage, not meat.

I don't particularly endorse these recipes but the corning method is
correct... it's best to pack like six-ten briskets together.

http://www.alliedkenco.com/catalog/p.../recipes/key/8

Theron wrote:

> The safeway product above suggested steaming. We'll see what it ends up
> like. Hopefully not
> too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you use
> nitrite? Did you inject?

I have roasted corned beef. Way too salty. My suggestion is to simmer
the meat as you would normally and finish it off in the oven. Dump some
barbecue sauce over it if you like. That's tasty!

I've never heard of steaming corned beef - or any beef. I you'd like to
try it, use a steamer, not the oven.

>
> Ed
>

"dsi1" wrote:
> Theron wrote:
>
>> The safeway product above suggested steaming. We'll see what it ends up
>> like. Hopefully not
>> too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you
>> use nitrite? Did you inject?
>
> I have roasted corned beef. Way too salty. My suggestion is to simmer the
> meat as you would normally and finish it off in the oven. Dump some
> barbecue sauce over it if you like. That's tasty!
>
> I've never heard of steaming corned beef - or any beef. I you'd like to
> try it, use a steamer, not the oven.
>
>>
>> Ed
>>
Restaurants use a steam cabinet to to keep corned beef hot all day without
it drying out, but it's not cooked with steam. Corned beef is cooked in
copious quantities of water to extract as much salt as possible, otherwise
it will be inedible to all but the TIADers. Everyone who's cooking corned
beef with a crockpot or a pressure processor is a TIADer. Anyone who's
brining and calling it corning is a kitchen imbecile, because what they're
doing is preparing fercocktah sauer braten.

brooklyn1 > wrote:

> "Sqwertz" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Theron > wrote:
>>
>>> The safeway product above suggested steaming. We'll see what it ends up
>>> like. Hopefully not
>>> too salty. I'm interested in your brine recipe for corning beef Did you
>>> use
>>> nitrite? Did you inject?
>>
>> I heated water and simmered a bunch of fresh bay leaf, mustard
>> seends, cloves, coriander, garlic and peppercorns. I then watered
>> that down with a 3 quarts of cold water and added kosher salt until
>> I had the right amount (I do all my brines by taste - so don't ask
>> how much salt I used).
>>
>> Then I trimmed the point off the flat and cut the flat into 2. Each
>> half of the flat went into a gallon ziplock with half the brine and
>> a tablespoon of Instacure #1. Brined for 3 days and came out
>> perfect.
>>
>> Longer brining for a 2-2.5" thick flat is unnecessary - some recipes
>> tell you 7-10 days, which is BS, even if the point was still
>> attached)
>
> Sorry, dwarf, but brining ain't corning... brining meat must be some kinda
> moron redneck thang... you brine cucumbers and cabbage, not meat.

Your anal, outdated terminology means nothing to the rest of us.
Brining (VIA injection, tumbling, and soaking) is the method by
which *all* manufacturers make corned beef. What you do in your own
little, ignorant world is meaningless to everyone but yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef

-sw

brooklyn1 wrote:

> Restaurants use a steam cabinet to to keep corned beef hot all day without
> it drying out, but it's not cooked with steam. Corned beef is cooked in
> copious quantities of water to extract as much salt as possible, otherwise
> it will be inedible to all but the TIADers. Everyone who's cooking corned
> beef with a crockpot or a pressure processor is a TIADer. Anyone who's
> brining and calling it corning is a kitchen imbecile, because what they're
> doing is preparing fercocktah sauer braten.
>

Don't look at me, I ain't calling it brining! I would do this corning
stuff but we don't see brisket much over here anyway. My guess is that
nobody know how to prepare a uncured brisket. Not that it matters much -
there no Morton Cure on this island either.

dsi1 > wrote:

> brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> Restaurants use a steam cabinet to to keep corned beef hot all day without
>> it drying out, but it's not cooked with steam. Corned beef is cooked in
>> copious quantities of water to extract as much salt as possible, otherwise
>> it will be inedible to all but the TIADers. Everyone who's cooking corned
>> beef with a crockpot or a pressure processor is a TIADer. Anyone who's
>> brining and calling it corning is a kitchen imbecile, because what they're
>> doing is preparing fercocktah sauer braten.
>>
>
> Don't look at me, I ain't calling it brining! I would do this corning
> stuff but we don't see brisket much over here anyway.

Don't take Sheldon seriously. Corned beef is made VIA brining 99.8%
of the time.

-sw

The Other Guy > wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 22:19:58 -0500, Sqwertz >
> wrote:
>
>>Your anal, outdated terminology means
>
> Save EVERYONE from him, AND from your rants, just twit filter him.

What did you hope to accomplish with this post?

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:

> Your anal, outdated terminology means nothing to the rest of us.
> Brining (VIA injection, tumbling, and soaking) is the method by
> which *all* manufacturers make corned beef. What you do in your own
> little, ignorant world is meaningless to everyone but yourself.

In my mind, it ain't corned beef if it ain't red. That's just my local
experience with corned beef - in the can, at the refrigerator case at
Safeway, or in a restaurant.

Anyway, it's all salt-cured beef brisket. It's likely that whether it's
reddish or grey in color, salt cured beef prepared either way tastes
pretty much the same. It's likely that some areas of this country
prepares corned beef with only salt and it would probably be unwise to
say that there's no such thing as non-red corned beef.

>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corned_beef
>
> -sw

Sqwertz wrote:

>
> Don't take Sheldon seriously. Corned beef is made VIA brining 99.8%
> of the time.

I'll strive to take him seriously 75% of the time.

My guess is that waiting for a piece of meat to soak up a brine solution
takes too long. I'm betting they'll inject the briskets with many
needles so technically, it's probably different from what we'd consider
brining. Well, at least, I'm betting that the bagged stuff I get from
Safeway is made this way. That's modern meats for ya.

>
> -sw

dsi1 wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
>
>>
>> Don't take Sheldon seriously. Corned beef is made VIA brining 99.8%
>> of the time.
>
> I'll strive to take him seriously 75% of the time.

That's 74% too much striving.

> My guess is that waiting for a piece of meat to soak up a brine solution
> takes too long.

You guessed wrong. Brining is safer, more reliable, and only takes half
as long.

> I'm betting they'll inject the briskets with many
> needles so technically, it's probably different from what we'd consider
> brining.

They are poked and/or tumbled in a vaccuum, then packed in some of the
brine so they will finish brining during shipment. Either way it's still
brining.

-sw

"dsi1" > wrote in message
news:1cGdneHXMJRQ813UnZ2dnUVZ_tHinZ2d@hawaiiantel. net...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> Restaurants use a steam cabinet to to keep corned beef hot all day
>> without it drying out, but it's not cooked with steam. Corned beef is
>> cooked in copious quantities of water to extract as much salt as
>> possible, otherwise it will be inedible to all but the TIADers. Everyone
>> who's cooking corned beef with a crockpot or a pressure processor is a
>> TIADer. Anyone who's brining and calling it corning is a kitchen
>> imbecile, because what they're doing is preparing fercocktah sauer
>> braten.
>>
>
> Don't look at me, I ain't calling it brining! I would do this corning
> stuff but we don't see brisket much over here anyway. My guess is that
> nobody know how to prepare a uncured brisket. Not that it matters much -
> there no Morton Cure on this island either.

Any large cut of beef can be corned, many use round. And cure is totally
uneccessary, cure is a relatively new invention of modern chemistry, it only
fixes the red color but for thousands of years corning was done with
ordinary salt only, the meat will turn grey but it will taste exactly the
same... eat by candle light.

brooklyn1 wrote:

> Any large cut of beef can be corned, many use round. And cure is totally
> uneccessary, cure is a relatively new invention of modern chemistry, it only
> fixes the red color but for thousands of years corning was done with
> ordinary salt only, the meat will turn grey but it will taste exactly the
> same... eat by candle light.

Salt *is* a cure. All corned beef needs a cure. Whether it has nitrites
in it or not. And the nitrites *do* change the taste of the meat. You
cannot make ham taste like ham without nitrites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salted_meat

Is there anything else you know nothing about? Keep 'em coming, as usual.

-sw

Sheldon wrote:

> Any large cut of beef can be corned, many use round. And cure is totally
> uneccessary, cure is a relatively new invention of modern chemistry, it
> only fixes the red color but for thousands of years corning was done with
> ordinary salt only, the meat will turn grey but it will taste exactly the
> same... eat by candle light.

When Cook's Illustrated took on corned beef in their test kitchen, the
recipe they ended up preferring was a "grey" corned beef recipe. It's not as
pretty as the pink stuff, but their tasting panel liked the taste and
texture a lot better. With the "pink salt," the panel commented that the
corned beef had a "chemical" flavor and a grainy or chalky mouthfeel.

One comment made at the time was that a corned chuck blade roast had a
"melting, buttery" texture, but the panel liked the chewier brisket better.
Ever since reading that, I've been off-and-on considering making a corned
chuck roast.

(The article was in the March/April 1997 issue of Cook's Illustrated.)

Bob

Sqwertz wrote:

> They are poked and/or tumbled in a vaccuum, then packed in some of the
> brine so they will finish brining during shipment. Either way it's
> still brining.

I'll agree that it's likely you're technically correct when it's done in
a factory setting. In my case, I've injected meats and poultry and will
also always brine my turkeys, to call both methods brining just don't
cut it.

>
> -sw

In my opinion corned beef is often heated or kept warm
on steam tables in hofbrau-style restaurants. But this
is not the same as steaming it. In my experience steaming
something like corned beef actually makes it tougher.
You actually want to just warm it. Partly covering with
foil works.

Steve

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "dsi1" > wrote in message
> news:1cGdneHXMJRQ813UnZ2dnUVZ_tHinZ2d@hawaiiantel. net...

>
> Any large cut of beef can be corned, many use round. And cure is totally
> uneccessary, cure is a relatively new invention of modern chemistry, it only
> fixes the red color but for thousands of years corning was done with
> ordinary salt only, the meat will turn grey but it will taste exactly the
> same... eat by candle light.

Your suggestion is a practical solution and energy saving, too bad I
dislike eating by candle light, poor night vision, you understand.


>
>

"Sqwertz" wrote:
>
> Salt *is* a cure.

Everyone knows that but you... NACL is not the cure folks are asking
about... try to keep up.

>You cannot make ham taste like ham without nitrites.
>
More moronic Texass BS. Mostly ham tastes like ham because it's pork, duh,
you simpleton. Different hams taste differently due to the particular diet
fed and age of the hogs and in most cases how they are *smoked* (some ham is
not smoked), and seasoned (many herbs and sweeteners could be employed), and
myriad details in how aged. But nitrites add no flavor different from NACL.

Being an ass folks would expect he'd know about ham, but the sqwartz is a
jackass. First he doesn't know corned beef from corn hole, second he knows
nothing about ham, maybe the dwarf jackass will try for three, it's early
yet. LOL

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Sqwertz" wrote:
>> Salt *is* a cure.
>
> Everyone knows that but you... NACL is not the cure folks are asking
> about... try to keep up.
>
>> You cannot make ham taste like ham without nitrites.
>>
> More moronic Texass BS. Mostly ham tastes like ham because it's pork, duh,
> you simpleton.


That it interesting, considering that there are so many cuts of pork
that don't taste at all like ham. Peameal bacon tastes more like ham
than a roasted loin, but it's brined.


>

Mark Thorson wrote:
>
> In the same sense you can't make chicken soup
> without MSG (or it's many secret forms like
> hydrolyzed vegetable protein, yeast extract,
> sodium caseinate, etc.).
>
> Just doesn't taste like chicken soup without it.
> It's chicken-flavored water. Even adding salt
> just turns it into salty chicken-flavored water.
> It doesn't become soup until you add MSG.

Hey! Keep this information to yourself! MSG is my secret ingredient,
besides "a little sugar." :-)

It's so good they should call it MSFG. :-) In my mind, without MSG, it
ain't potato salad, or stew, or meatloaf, or fried rice, or beef
broccoli, or...

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> Salt *is* a cure. All corned beef needs a cure. Whether it has nitrites
> in it or not. And the nitrites *do* change the taste of the meat. You
> cannot make ham taste like ham without nitrites.

In the same sense you can't make chicken soup
without MSG (or it's many secret forms like
hydrolyzed vegetable protein, yeast extract,
sodium caseinate, etc.).

Just doesn't taste like chicken soup without it.
It's chicken-flavored water. Even adding salt
just turns it into salty chicken-flavored water.
It doesn't become soup until you add MSG.

"dsi1" > wrote in message
news:ddudna8XGbemzVzUnZ2dnUVZ_g6WnZ2d@hawaiiantel. net...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> "dsi1" > wrote in message
>> news:1cGdneHXMJRQ813UnZ2dnUVZ_tHinZ2d@hawaiiantel. net...
>
>>
>> Any large cut of beef can be corned, many use round. And cure is totally
>> uneccessary, cure is a relatively new invention of modern chemistry, it
>> only fixes the red color but for thousands of years corning was done with
>> ordinary salt only, the meat will turn grey but it will taste exactly the
>> same... eat by candle light.
>
> Your suggestion is a practical solution and energy saving, too bad I
> dislike eating by candle light, poor night vision, you understand.
>
>
If you dine with gals who have headlights flip em to low beam and you can
grope your way.

brooklyn1 wrote:

> If you dine with gals who have headlights flip em to low beam and you can
> grope your way.

Sorry, I'm married with children. The days of mixing food and sex are
long gone. Firstly, I'd have to get rid of the wife. Good luck with the
groping though...

On Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:00:35 -1000, dsi1 wrote:

> Mark Thorson wrote:
>>
>> In the same sense you can't make chicken soup
>> without MSG (or it's many secret forms like
>> hydrolyzed vegetable protein, yeast extract,
>> sodium caseinate, etc.).
>>
>> Just doesn't taste like chicken soup without it.
>> It's chicken-flavored water. Even adding salt
>> just turns it into salty chicken-flavored water.
>> It doesn't become soup until you add MSG.
>
> Hey! Keep this information to yourself! MSG is my secret ingredient,
> besides "a little sugar." :-)
>
> It's so good they should call it MSFG. :-) In my mind, without MSG, it
> ain't potato salad, or stew, or meatloaf, or fried rice, or beef
> broccoli, or...

o.k., potato salad is a new one on me. how do you deploy your m.s.g.
there?

your pal,
blake

brooklyn1 wrote:
> But nitrites add no flavor different from NACL.

Speaking as someone who has made actually cured and smoked ham from
scratch, both with and without nitrites, I can assure you that nitrites
*do* change the flavor of pork. And everyone who's ever used it knows this.

OTOH, you have never cured or smoked ham in your life.

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> But nitrites add no flavor different from NACL.
>
> Speaking as someone who has made actually cured and smoked ham from
> scratch, both with and without nitrites, I can assure you that nitrites
> *do* change the flavor of pork. And everyone who's ever used it knows
> this.
>
> OTOH, you have never cured or smoked ham in your life.
>
> -sw

Yes they do change the flavor as well as the color of the product. Also
nitrates and nitrites (last I knew anyhow) were causes of carcinogenic
compounds (cancer causing agents) when cooked to a brown or blackened state.

--
Steve

"Mark Thorson" wrote:
> Sqwertz wrote:
>> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> > But nitrites add no flavor different from NACL.
>>
>> Speaking as someone who has made actually cured and smoked ham from
>> scratch, both with and without nitrites, I can assure you that nitrites
>> *do* change the flavor of pork. And everyone who's ever used it knows
>> this.
>
> I've bought nitrate-free bacon and Spanish-style chorizo,
> but I don't remember ever seeing nitrate-free ham.
>
> I'll have to keep an eye open for it.
>
>
It's called "Fresh Ham"... should be readily available most everywhere
shortly... roast fresh ham is a very popular Easter dish, the King of
Pork... I never could figure out why anyone lusts after preserved ham when
they could have unadulterated and lucious... anyone thinks a 12 pound cured
ham is special has no beeswax bashing a 12 ounce can of SPAM, other than
size really not a lick of difference. Anyone wanting to cook up a big batch
of beans or pea soup and hasn't a ham bone just dice in a hunk of smoked
Spam.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> Anyone wanting to cook up a big batch
> of beans or pea soup and hasn't a ham bone just dice in a hunk of smoked
> Spam.

We need to start keeping track of these little gems in a book.

-sw

Sqwertz wrote:
>
> brooklyn1 wrote:
> > But nitrites add no flavor different from NACL.
>
> Speaking as someone who has made actually cured and smoked ham from
> scratch, both with and without nitrites, I can assure you that nitrites
> *do* change the flavor of pork. And everyone who's ever used it knows this.

I've bought nitrate-free bacon and Spanish-style chorizo,
but I don't remember ever seeing nitrate-free ham.

I'll have to keep an eye open for it.

(Still recovering from a minor case of gout caused
by eating about half of a Framani chorizo three days ago.
And I did have one of those "I wonder if this will give me
gout" thoughts while eating it. I'll have to remember
to trust that little voice.)

(Enjoyed every bit of it. Maybe I should push for
legislation to make it illegal. Yeah, that's the solution!
Obviously, I can't stop myself. Maybe I could sue them.)

Mark Thorson wrote:
> Steve Calvin wrote:
>> Yes they do change the flavor as well as the color of the product. Also
>> nitrates and nitrites (last I knew anyhow) were causes of carcinogenic
>> compounds (cancer causing agents) when cooked to a brown or blackened state.
>
> That was formerly believed, but it is now known
> that high temperature cooking is not necessary
> to form the carcinogens. They will form naturally
> when the meat passes into the intestines. For
> example, a nitrate-cured boiled ham was previously
> thought safe if you didn't slice it up and fry it
> or something, but now it's known that it doesn't
> matter how you cook it.

Thanks for the update Mark.... there's the thing that I learned new for
today!

--
Steve

Steve Calvin wrote:
>
> Yes they do change the flavor as well as the color of the product. Also
> nitrates and nitrites (last I knew anyhow) were causes of carcinogenic
> compounds (cancer causing agents) when cooked to a brown or blackened state.

That was formerly believed, but it is now known
that high temperature cooking is not necessary
to form the carcinogens. They will form naturally
when the meat passes into the intestines. For
example, a nitrate-cured boiled ham was previously
thought safe if you didn't slice it up and fry it
or something, but now it's known that it doesn't
matter how you cook it.

We just did a corned beef (commercially prepared) by boiling it inside a
boiling bag. Previously, boiling it resulted in a poorly seasoned
brisket. This time, I opened the bag, dumped in the included pouch
along with some salt, a tsp or so of liquid crab boil and a big pinch of
more pickling spice. That went into the refrigerator for a day. The
beef was boiled in its own juices only, inside the bag, to 180f. The
results were terrific. The bag was then opened, the meat removed and the
juices added to the water to do cabbage, onion and reds.
--
Nonny
If you think health care is expensive now,
wait until you see what it costs when it's free!

- P.J. O'Rourke

"Sqwertz" > wrote in message
...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> Anyone wanting to cook up a big batch of beans or pea soup and hasn't a
>> ham bone just dice in a hunk of smoked Spam.
>
> We need to start keeping track of these little gems in a book.


I'm running out of paper!

TFM®

Steve Calvin > wrote:

> Also nitrates and nitrites (last I knew anyhow) were causes of carcinogenic
> compounds (cancer causing agents) when cooked to a brown or blackened state.

Uh, we don't usually care about that. Those same reports tell us
that olive oil reduces carcinogens. So that's what we use to apply
our rubs.

-sw

On 2009-03-20, TFM® > wrote:
>
> I'm running out of paper!

got some cobbs?

nb