On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:56:26 -0400, "Nancy Young"
> wrote:

>Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
>>> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't
>>> gain anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by
>>> themselves.
>
>> You still gain heat. It has to go someplace and the furnace just
>> runs a tiny bit less in the AM. Instead of the temperature falling
>> overnight to 62 degrees, it will only fall to 62.1 degrees.
>
>Try low 50s. And I think any heat will have dissappated to the
>cathedral ceilings between 2am and 7, but I understand we're not
>talking about my house or my dishwashing timing.

The heat of the hot water (not all that "hot" at my house) sustains a
drying session in my dishwasher. I've never used the dry cycle in 30
odd years of having a dishwasher. The trick is to not open the door.
If you do, you need to leave it open.
>
>> In the
>> summer, if you run AC, you have to remove that heat so it is a waste
>> then. As long as you like the way the dishes come out, no reason to
>> change.
>
>Of course. And if people find it cost effective to use the electric
>heating coil to dry their dishes and thus heat their home, who am I to
>argue. I'll make biscuits or something in the kitchen in the morning to
>warm it up using the oven.
>
My oven doesn't warm the room. My cook top does though... so making a
pot of hot water helps warm the kitchen.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
> In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>>> The water doesn't care what generated the heat. During the heating
>>> season, that heat is going to come either from the dishwasher
>>> heating element or from the furnace, but either way you're going to
>>> pay for the heat. It may be marginally cheaper to use the furnace,
>>> if you have an up to date high efficiency furnace, but not enough
>>> to notice.
>>
>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running
>> or not.
>
> The furnace heats the house. The heat in the house is used to
> evaporate the water.

The fact that the water the dishes were washed in is super hot
makes it just evaporate. This is why they also dry themselves in
the summer when the heat isn't on ... or the A/C.

Geez, when I take my dishes out of the cabinets on that same
wall in the winter, they are freezing cold because I didn't think
to have them replace the insulation when I replaced the kitchen.
If the heat isn't forcing itself into my kitchen cabinets, I sincerely
doubt it's pushing past the hot air leaking from the dishwasher
to dry them.

Regardless, I don't see the worth to using the electric heating
coil in my dishwasher to gain warmth in the house, but to each
their own.

nancy

sf wrote:
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:56:26 -0400, "Nancy Young"
> > wrote:

>> Try low 50s. And I think any heat will have dissappated to the
>> cathedral ceilings between 2am and 7, but I understand we're not
>> talking about my house or my dishwashing timing.
>
> The heat of the hot water (not all that "hot" at my house) sustains a
> drying session in my dishwasher.

Exactly. And I used heated wash, so that water is steaming.
You'll get a facial if you open that door too soon. And it burns
if you try handling the dishes then.

nancy

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running or
>>> not. As a matter of fact, the dishwasher is closed so I don't think
>>> the furnace heat has any affect on the dishes one way or another.
>
>> Other way around. The heat you call wasted goes into the living
>> space and helps to heat it. It may be wasted in summer, but during
>> heating season, it is not wasted at all. It just helps to heat the
>> house, as does the TV, computer, light bulbs, etc.
>>
>> The difference it the cost of electricity versus the fuel of your
>> furnace. If you dry the dishes on the heat cycle, the furnace runs a
>> bit less.
>
> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't gain
> anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by themselves.
>
>
Yeah, but... they don't begin to dry until you get up in the morning and
open the dishwasher door... and then it still takes 3-4 hours to air dry...
so any dishes used that morning need to be stacked in the sink, or
somewhere. It's really false economy not to use the heated dry... the
machine is already hot inside from it's normal run, it still uses the blower
motor but without the heater... adding the heater at that point costs like
what it costs to run your bread toaster 3-4 times... the energy used to run
the heated dry cycles cost like 5% of the total cost of running the
dishwasher... not using the heated dry cycle to save energy is like saving
energy by using your TV/PC without audio.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Nancy Young" > wrote

>> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
>> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't
>> gain anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by
>> themselves.
>>
>>
> Yeah, but... they don't begin to dry until you get up in the morning
> and open the dishwasher door...

The dishes are totally dry in the morning, save the occasional
mis-loaded bowl or cup that traps water in the upturned bottom.

nancy

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:56:26 -0400, "Nancy Young"
> > wrote:
>
>>Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
>>>> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't
>>>> gain anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by
>>>> themselves.
>>
>>> You still gain heat. It has to go someplace and the furnace just
>>> runs a tiny bit less in the AM. Instead of the temperature falling
>>> overnight to 62 degrees, it will only fall to 62.1 degrees.
>>
>>Try low 50s. And I think any heat will have dissappated to the
>>cathedral ceilings between 2am and 7, but I understand we're not
>>talking about my house or my dishwashing timing.
>
> The heat of the hot water (not all that "hot" at my house) sustains a
> drying session in my dishwasher. I've never used the dry cycle in 30
> odd years of having a dishwasher. The trick is to not open the door.
> If you do, you need to leave it open.


If you don't open the door the dishes won't dry, a dishwasher vent is much
too small for water droplets on dishes to evaporate without the blower
operating, and without heat the blower would need to run all day, and still
the dishes would be wet.

>>> In the
>>> summer, if you run AC, you have to remove that heat so it is a waste
>>> then. As long as you like the way the dishes come out, no reason to
>>> change.
>>
>>Of course. And if people find it cost effective to use the electric
>>heating coil to dry their dishes and thus heat their home, who am I to
>>argue. I'll make biscuits or something in the kitchen in the morning to
>>warm it up using the oven.

Now that's a real waste of energy, heating an oven to make just a few
biscuits

> My oven doesn't warm the room. My cook top does though... so making a
> pot of hot water helps warm the kitchen.

Why doesn't *your* oven warm the room?

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
news
> sf wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:56:26 -0400, "Nancy Young"
>> > wrote:
>
>>> Try low 50s. And I think any heat will have dissappated to the
>>> cathedral ceilings between 2am and 7, but I understand we're not
>>> talking about my house or my dishwashing timing.
>>
>> The heat of the hot water (not all that "hot" at my house) sustains a
>> drying session in my dishwasher.
>
> Exactly. And I used heated wash, so that water is steaming.
> You'll get a facial if you open that door too soon. And it burns
> if you try handling the dishes then.

You don't get a choice with the heated wash, it's an automatic function (do
you really think they engineer dishwashers to wash dishes with cold water
like they do with clothes washers... you only get a choice with heated dry.
It's also a good idea to run the hot water at your kitchen sink until it is
hot before turning on your dishwasher, or its water heater will have to heat
all that cold water and it's too small to do that efficiently.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> > The water doesn't care what generated the heat. During the heating
>> > season, that heat is going to come either from the dishwasher heating
>> > element or from the furnace, but either way you're going to pay for
>> > the heat. It may be marginally cheaper to use the furnace, if you
>> > have an up to date high efficiency furnace, but not enough to notice.
>>
>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running
>> or not.
>
> The furnace heats the house. The heat in the house is used to evaporate
> the water.
>
> The house heat that is used up by evaporating the water needs to be
> replaced. Where does it come from? The furnace.

This is true, there's no free lunch... you can't use the same energy twice.

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>> In article >,
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>>> The water doesn't care what generated the heat. During the heating
>>>> season, that heat is going to come either from the dishwasher
>>>> heating element or from the furnace, but either way you're going to
>>>> pay for the heat. It may be marginally cheaper to use the furnace,
>>>> if you have an up to date high efficiency furnace, but not enough
>>>> to notice.
>>>
>>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running
>>> or not.
>>
>> The furnace heats the house. The heat in the house is used to
>> evaporate the water.
>
> The fact that the water the dishes were washed in is super hot makes it
> just evaporate. This is why they also dry themselves in the summer when
> the heat isn't on ... or the A/C.
>
> Geez, when I take my dishes out of the cabinets on that same
> wall in the winter, they are freezing cold because I didn't think to have
> them replace the insulation when I replaced the kitchen.

Your dishes are cold becaue they are inside a closed cabinet on an outside
wall... adding extra insulation would not have made your dishes stay any
warmer, becaeu it's thje heated air inside your house that warms those
dishes, but being in a closed cabinet the house air can't get inside the
cabinet at a high enough rate to offset the refrigeration of the outside
air. This is why plumbing is supposed to be inside an interior wall.

> If the heat isn't forcing itself into my kitchen cabinets, I sincerely
> doubt it's pushing past the hot air leaking from the dishwasher
> to dry them.
>
> Regardless, I don't see the worth to using the electric heating
> coil in my dishwasher to gain warmth in the house, but to each
> their own.
>
It's not to heat your house, it's strictly for the convenience of drying
your dishes and for health reasons... if having to wait for your dishes to
air dry from the time you open the dishwasher door is not inconvenient to
you then by all means don't use the heated dry... only negative then is that
your sysem is less sanitary.. dishes really should dry as quickly as
possible, stagnant water is unsanitary.... sometimes restaurants become
backed up and they serve in wet dishes, that's a big health code
violation... purposefully air drying dishes is a much bigger health code
violation.

"Nancy Young" > wrote in message
...
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote
>
>>> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
>>> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't
>>> gain anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by
>>> themselves.
>> Yeah, but... they don't begin to dry until you get up in the morning
>> and open the dishwasher door...
>
> The dishes are totally dry in the morning, save the occasional
> mis-loaded bowl or cup that traps water in the upturned bottom.
> nancy

Then you're pressing "Auto Wash" instead of "Regular Wash"... then your
machine automatically runs the heated dry.... because without the heated dry
there is no way your dishes would be dry when you open the door, just not
possible... if your dishes are dry when you open the door then you are
running the heated dry feature. If your dishes are too hot to touch when
you open the door, even a few hours after the wash is finished, then you are
running heated dry. Maybe you should read your owner's manual carefully...
I had to read my manual a few times until I learned what features were
automatically included with each setting... I discovered that the Pot
Scrubber setting includes sterilize. I've learned to realize there is
something different with each setting by how many minutes is displayed at
start... Regular Wash displays 60 minutes, Auto Wash displays 80 minutes,
Pot Scrubber displays 2 hours... that's with my Maytag, your machine
probably uses different terminology but I'd bet it functions the same. I
don't use Regular Wash, I mostly use Auto Wash, I use Pot Scrubber when I
wash my stove grates and drip pans. Even with heated dry, and even with
sanitize there will be water in upturned items... I have a few mugs with
concave bottoms, I always need to remember to load those on a slant.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>>>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running or
>>>> not. As a matter of fact, the dishwasher is closed so I don't think
>>>> the furnace heat has any affect on the dishes one way or another.
>>> Other way around. The heat you call wasted goes into the living
>>> space and helps to heat it. It may be wasted in summer, but during
>>> heating season, it is not wasted at all. It just helps to heat the
>>> house, as does the TV, computer, light bulbs, etc.
>>>
>>> The difference it the cost of electricity versus the fuel of your
>>> furnace. If you dry the dishes on the heat cycle, the furnace runs a
>>> bit less.
>> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
>> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't gain
>> anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by themselves.
>>
>>
> Yeah, but... they don't begin to dry until you get up in the morning and
> open the dishwasher door... and then it still takes 3-4 hours to air dry...
> so any dishes used that morning need to be stacked in the sink, or
> somewhere. It's really false economy not to use the heated dry... the
> machine is already hot inside from it's normal run, it still uses the blower
> motor but without the heater... adding the heater at that point costs like
> what it costs to run your bread toaster 3-4 times... the energy used to run
> the heated dry cycles cost like 5% of the total cost of running the
> dishwasher... not using the heated dry cycle to save energy is like saving
> energy by using your TV/PC without audio.
>
>
I disabled the drying cycle on our last and current dishwashers and the
dishes dry just fine without opening the door. I have never seen a
blower motor fitted in a residential dishwasher. Maybe all of this is
just your imagination?

On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:30:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> wrote:

>
>"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>> > The water doesn't care what generated the heat. During the heating
>>> > season, that heat is going to come either from the dishwasher heating
>>> > element or from the furnace, but either way you're going to pay for
>>> > the heat. It may be marginally cheaper to use the furnace, if you
>>> > have an up to date high efficiency furnace, but not enough to notice.
>>>
>>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running
>>> or not.
>>
>> The furnace heats the house. The heat in the house is used to evaporate
>> the water.
>>
>> The house heat that is used up by evaporating the water needs to be
>> replaced. Where does it come from? The furnace.
>
>This is true, there's no free lunch... you can't use the same energy twice.
>
Around here we don't heat or cool the house at least half the year.
Electrically drying dishes is a complete and total waste of energy
during those times. Of course if you find it convenient, for whatever
reason you choose, you might not consider it a waste.
Besides the seasonal aspect, allowing dishes to naturally drain their
water into the sewer system has absolutely no cost.
I don't have a dishwasher, but the drainboard is sometimes still
dripping water into the sink an hour after the dishes were washed.
Besides that, computing electric rates and dishwasher coil efficiency
versus home gas furnace cost and heating efficiency, with the heat
implications of evaporation and household humidity thrown in is not a
simple matter.
Do what you want, but don't think electrically drying dishes has no
cost. Unless you can scientifically prove it.

--Vic

Nancy Young wrote:
> brooklyn1 wrote:
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote
>
>>> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
>>> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't
>>> gain anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by
>>> themselves.
>>>
>> Yeah, but... they don't begin to dry until you get up in the morning
>> and open the dishwasher door...
>
> The dishes are totally dry in the morning, save the occasional
> mis-loaded bowl or cup that traps water in the upturned bottom.
> nancy

Same here, both our prior and current dishwashers had/have a button
which specifically disables the drying cycle. The dishes are always dry
in the morning just as you described.

Rooney wrote:

> "Tom Adams" > wrote:
>> Rule # 1: Don't read the user manual. If you read and follow the
>> user manual, you will have to think while you load it, and you won't
>> be able to put nearly as many dishes in it.
>
> This is how we clean the grates on our BBQ.
>
> Works for all the plates and dishes, too.
>
> http://s258.photobucket.com/albums/h...t=7f1d3e68.pbw

FWIW, all I saw there was a photobucket page with all the words and no picture.
By looking at the source and finding the link to the image I was able to see
the picture. Weird.

Either situation was pretty funny.

--
Cheers, Bev
------------------------------------------------------------------
Always carry a length of fiber-optic cable in your pocket. Should
you be shipwrecked and find yourself stranded on a desert island,
bury the cable in the sand. A few hours later, a guy driving a
backhoe will be along to dig it up. Ask him to rescue you.

On Wed, 13 May 2009 22:20:36 -0400, Nancy Young wrote:

> Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote in message
>>>
>>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running or
>>> not. As a matter of fact, the dishwasher is closed so I don't think
>>> the furnace heat has any affect on the dishes one way or another.
>
>> Other way around. The heat you call wasted goes into the living
>> space and helps to heat it. It may be wasted in summer, but during
>> heating season, it is not wasted at all. It just helps to heat the
>> house, as does the TV, computer, light bulbs, etc.
>>
>> The difference it the cost of electricity versus the fuel of your
>> furnace. If you dry the dishes on the heat cycle, the furnace runs a
>> bit less.
>
> Actually, I run my dishwasher in the middle of the night. My heat
> doesn't run during the night unless it's crazy cold out. I don't gain
> anything by using heated dry for my dishes, they just dry by themselves.
>
> nancy

it doesn't make sense to me, either. if you're in a hurry for dry dishes,
there's always a towel.

your pal,
blake

brooklyn1 wrote:

> "Nancy Young" wrote:
>> The Henchman wrote:
>>
>>> for clean dishes. To save a buck on hydro we let the dishes air dry
>>> instead of dw dryer.
>>
>> I think that's a total waste of resources, however you want to put it. I
>> never use heated dry.

Neither does my daughter. I approve. It may not save a lot, but if you can
save money by doing something that causes you no trouble at all, why not?

> I bet you use your clothes dryer instead of hanging your laundry to dry... I
> bet you sometimes use your clothes dryer to dry just a couple items,
> everyone does.

If you don't dry it fairly quickly in one way or another, wet cloth mildews.
Nothing bad happens to stuff that normally goes through a dishwasher if you let
it air-dry. When I was working, sometimes they would stress-test circuit
boards by running them through the dishwasher in the employee break room, which
I thought was clever.

I do laundry at the laundromat every couple of months. I dry only full
multi-loads. You lose.

> The clothes dryer is probably the single appliance that
> folks MISuse that wastes the most energy.... the vacuum cleaner is a close
> runner up.
>
> Perhaps you don't mind waking up in the morning to a dishwasher filled with
> wet dishes, but I don't want to start wiping dishes first thing in the
> morning before being able to put them away and I don't want to wait half the
> day with the dishwasher door open for the dishes to air dry and having to
> stack up dirty dishes because those in the machine are still wet, really
> negates the utility of owning a dishwasher.

You might ask yourself why it's so important that (a) dishes be put away on
some sort of schedule and (b) they be dry when you put them away and (c) there
be no dishes in the sink.

The good thing about dishwashers is that the dishes feel so clean after
processing. Squeaky clean. I'm not willing to wash them that well by hand,
and it's a real shame that there's no room in my kitchen for an electric
dishwasher. Barely enough room for a human dishwasher :-)

--
Cheers, Bev
------------------------------------------------------------------
Always carry a length of fiber-optic cable in your pocket. Should
you be shipwrecked and find yourself stranded on a desert island,
bury the cable in the sand. A few hours later, a guy driving a
backhoe will be along to dig it up. Ask him to rescue you.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> > The water doesn't care what generated the heat. During the heating
>> > season, that heat is going to come either from the dishwasher heating
>> > element or from the furnace, but either way you're going to pay for
>> > the heat. It may be marginally cheaper to use the furnace, if you
>> > have an up to date high efficiency furnace, but not enough to notice.
>>
>> ? The dishes dry themselves whether I have the furnace running
>> or not.
>
> The furnace heats the house. The heat in the house is used to evaporate
> the water.
>
> The house heat that is used up by evaporating the water needs to be
> replaced. Where does it come from? The furnace.

What is this "furnace" of which you speak? We live in SoCal. Heat comes from
the sun. It doesn't bill us.

--
Cheers, Bev
------------------------------------------------------------------
Always carry a length of fiber-optic cable in your pocket. Should
you be shipwrecked and find yourself stranded on a desert island,
bury the cable in the sand. A few hours later, a guy driving a
backhoe will be along to dig it up. Ask him to rescue you.

brooklyn1 wrote:

> It's not to heat your house, it's strictly for the convenience of drying
> your dishes and for health reasons... if having to wait for your dishes to
> air dry from the time you open the dishwasher door is not inconvenient to
> you then by all means don't use the heated dry... only negative then is that
> your sysem is less sanitary.. dishes really should dry as quickly as
> possible, stagnant water is unsanitary.... sometimes restaurants become
> backed up and they serve in wet dishes, that's a big health code
> violation... purposefully air drying dishes is a much bigger health code
> violation.

Some people worry WAYYYYY too much. 1. Just because it's an official code
doesn't mean it's necessary or even makes sense. 2. Public eating places have
different rules from homes, possibly because it would be impossible to enforce
home rules -- although that doesn't seem to be an obstacle in some cases.

You would be horrified at my dishwashing practices. Nevertheless, I can't
remember the last time we were sick, although I do remember that we were sick
at some time in the past.

--
Cheers, Bev
================================================== ===========
My house isn't a pigsty, it's an Immunity Enhancement Center.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Nancy Young" > wrote

>> Exactly. And I used heated wash, so that water is steaming.
>> You'll get a facial if you open that door too soon. And it burns
>> if you try handling the dishes then.
>
> You don't get a choice with the heated wash, it's an automatic
> function (do you really think they engineer dishwashers to wash
> dishes with cold water like they do with clothes washers... you only
> get a choice with heated dry. It's also a good idea to run the hot
> water at your kitchen sink until it is hot before turning on your
> dishwasher, or its water heater will have to heat all that cold water
> and it's too small to do that efficiently.

I'm totally aggravated by something not related to rfc, and I know
that comes across. I'm not aggravated when I say yes, I can
use the hot water as it comes from my water heater or I can hit
the button that says heated wash and the coil in the bottom will
make the water hotter.

nancy

On Thu, 14 May 2009 19:28:22 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> wrote:

>
>So you live in SoCal; what advice do you have for people who live in
>Minnesota?

Actually I live near Chicago. No advice.
Didn't use the dry cycle when I had a dishwasher.
But everybody can do what they want.
Only advice I usually give is stuff like a penny saved is a penny
earned, don't look a gift horse in the mouth, an ounce of prevention
is worth a pound of cure, etc.
But nobody pays attention to me anyway.
Guess they already heard it.

--Vic

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
> "Dave" wrote:
>>
>> OK, I think that was an attempt at humor. But if your dishes aren't
>> getting
>> clean without rinsing them before putting them in the dishwasher, you
>> need
>> to get a new dishwasher, or switch detergent.
>
> Not true. Certain foods will actually cook on so well they'll be more
> difficult to remove after coming out of the dishwasher than had they been
> washed off prior; runny egg yolk and cooked porridge/cereal ('specially
> oatmeal), most especially from silverware. I have a top of the line
> Maytag and it works very well but I still rinse off dishes because I only
> use enough dishes to run it like twice a week and unless one runs their
> dishwasher every day it will stink... are you one of those who uses your
> dishwasher as garbage can... I know that stench from when I'm in someone's
> kitchen and they open their dishwasher full of cruddy dishes and it stinks
> like fish monger dumpster. Not rinsing crud from dishes before placing
> them in the dishwasher is tantmount to taking a dump and not flushing the
> terlit... you don't gotta scrub the terlit each time but you at least
> gotta flush... and obviously you don't.
>
>
>

Or you can just use plates made in Korea. One company makes them out of
wheat now so you can eat that too.

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> In article >,
> Vic Smith > wrote:
>
>> Besides the seasonal aspect, allowing dishes to naturally drain their
>> water into the sewer system has absolutely no cost.
>
> Actually, depending on where you live, drying them with a heater costs
> more than what the heater costs: around here you pay for sewer based on
> how much water you use. If you use the water and then don't send it
> down the sewer, then you're paying for a service you're not getting.
>
> OK, so now we're getting esoteric.
>
> So you live in SoCal; what advice do you have for people who live in
> Minnesota?

Move!

--
Cheers, Bev
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is.

"Vic Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:30:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
> Do what you want, but don't think electrically drying dishes has no
> cost. Unless you can scientifically prove it.
>
I don't see anyone saying it has no cost. The point is that air drying the
dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to dry
them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang the
towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates. And again, it takes a
certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if it's
during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's not a
consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount of
electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would notice a
change in their electricity bill one way or the other.

Reading the manual really helps you!.. Some of the instructions are easy
to follow.. Some manuals have photos too!..


--
rubylene
Message origin: www.TRAVEL.com

"Lou" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vic Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:30:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Do what you want, but don't think electrically drying dishes has no
>> cost. Unless you can scientifically prove it.
>>
> I don't see anyone saying it has no cost. The point is that air drying
> the
> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to
> dry
> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang
> the
> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates. And again, it takes
> a
> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if it's
> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's not
> a
> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount
> of
> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would notice
> a
> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.
>
>
Absolutely true... finally someone with a functioning brain... a very rare
commodity these days, obviously.

brooklyn1 wrote:

> "Lou" > wrote:
>> "Vic Smith" > wrote:
>>>
>>> Do what you want, but don't think electrically drying dishes has no
>>> cost. Unless you can scientifically prove it.
>>>
>> I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a load of dishes,
>> but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount of electricity
>> used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would notice a change in
>> their electricity bill one way or the other.
>>
> Absolutely true... finally someone with a functioning brain... a very rare
> commodity these days, obviously.

OTOH, a friend's electric bill was cut in half when she stopped running her
coffeemaker all day.

--
Cheers, Bev
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Some people are like Slinkies... Not really good for
anything, but they still bring a smile to your face
when you push them down a flight of stairs.

"sf" > wrote in message
> My oven doesn't warm the room. My cook top does though... so making a
> pot of hot water helps warm the kitchen.

So where does all the heat in the oven go? Unless you have a vent to the
outside, it eventually ends up in the house. If the oven is well insulated,
little heat will escape during the cooking process, but eventually, it is
dissipated to the cooler environs. Law of Physics, can't be changed.

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Nancy Young" wrote:
>> The Henchman wrote:
>>
>>> for clean dishes. To save a buck on hydro we let the dishes air dry
>>> instead of dw dryer.
>>
>> I think that's a total waste of resources, however you want to put it. I
>> never use heated dry.
>>
>> The "heated dry" cycle is half the reason to own a dishwasher.
>

Heated dry is great when you are cleaning up after company and need to do
multple loads but I find for 2 people, air drying the dishes takes about 60
minutes.

Lou wrote:
> "Vic Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Thu, 14 May 2009 14:30:28 GMT, "brooklyn1"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> Do what you want, but don't think electrically drying dishes has no
>> cost. Unless you can scientifically prove it.
>>
> I don't see anyone saying it has no cost. The point is that air drying the
> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to dry
> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang the
> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates. And again, it takes a
> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if it's
> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's not a
> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount of
> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would notice a
> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.

I use the water heater feature of my dishwasher and clothes washer so
that I can set my domestic water at 120 instead of 150. That saves much
more money than not using electricity to dry the dishes.

YMMV

Matthew

--
"You give me a waterboard, Dick Cheney and one hour, and I'll have him
confess to the Sharon Tate murders." -- Jesse Ventura

On Thu 14 May 2009 08:32:24p, Ed Pawlowski told us...

>
> "sf" > wrote in message
>> My oven doesn't warm the room. My cook top does though... so making a
>> pot of hot water helps warm the kitchen.
>
> So where does all the heat in the oven go? Unless you have a vent to
> the outside, it eventually ends up in the house. If the oven is well
> insulated, little heat will escape during the cooking process, but
> eventually, it is dissipated to the cooler environs. Law of Physics,
> can't be changed.

It may very well be vented out. In both homes where I had wall ovens they
were vented to the outside and very little heat entered the kitchen. One
was a gas oven, the other electric. I know the gas oven had an exhaust fan
in the vent, but I'm not sure about the electric.

Having a free-standing electric range now, of course it vents into the
room, coming from the base of the backsplash. However, the vent hood turns
on automatically when it senses a certain temperature coming from below,
whether it be from the cooktop or the oven. The kitchen stays relatively
cool.

--
Wayne Boatwright
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Avoid fruit and nuts. You are what you eat. ~Jim Davis

Lou wrote:

> The point is that air drying the
> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to dry
> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang the
> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates.

True.

And again, it takes a
> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if it's
> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's not a
> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount of
> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would notice a
> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.

But that's assuming that all the energy used goes into evaporating
water. In the case of air drying that's true. In the case of heated
drying, it's hard to believe. The heat leaks into the environment
(not a total loss, of course, as the furnace runs less, but not a wash
either, since resistance heating is usually much more costly than the
furnace's heat). I don't have any figures for the percentage of total
heat used that evaporates water, but would guess it's a small
percentage. The rest goes into making the dishwasher warm, leaving
the plates warm.

(It's all theoretical to me, I've never had a dishwasher.)

Dave

Lou wrote:

> I don't see anyone saying it has no cost. The point is that air
> drying the dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is
> using a towel to dry them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which
> becomes damp.

I haven't dried a dish with a towel since I was a kid and my mother
insisted that I dry the dishes after I washed them. What a sloppy
mess. Whatever dishes I wash by hand sit in the drainer until I
put them away, having dried on their own. And pretty fast, too,
since I use pretty hot tap water.

I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
unless you live in a one room studio.

nancy

Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:

> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
>> unless you live in a one room studio.
>
> The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains:
> if you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for
> living, then the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately
> be sent into the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the
> furnace does NOT have to supply.

Eh, I don't think my dishwasher heat really reaches the thermostat
to any measurable degree.

nancy

On Fri, 15 May 2009 09:56:30 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> wrote:

>In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
>> unless you live in a one room studio.
>
>The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains: if
>you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for living, then
>the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately be sent into
>the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the furnace does NOT
>have to supply.
>
>In a studio apartment, it may be a significant percentage of the total
>heat needed to raise the inside temperature of the apartment. In a
>large house, it may be a very small percentage of the total heat needed.
>Regardless, it is heat and it will have an effect--in other words, it
>won't go to waste.
>
>However, when you're using the A/C in summer, the added heat load of the
>dry cycle is heat that the A/C must work HARDER at to remove from the
>inside of the house--again, regardless of whether it's a studio
>apartment or a large house.


But the added humidity from the dry cycle is a deffinate bonus

"Dave Garland" > wrote in message
...
> Lou wrote:
>
>> The point is that air drying the
>> dishes isn't necessarily cost free either. Neither is using a towel to
>> dry
>> them - the water is absorbed by the towel, which becomes damp. You hang
>> the
>> towel up when you're done, and that water evaporates.
>
> True.
>
> And again, it takes a
>> certain amount of heat to evaporate a given quantity of water, and if
>> it's
>> during the heating season, that heat is coming from the furnace. If you
>> live in a climate where you don't need to run the furnace, then that's
>> not a
>> consideration. I don't know how much water has to be evaporated to dry a
>> load of dishes, but it doesn't look like it would be much, and the amount
>> of
>> electricity used is correspondingly small - I doubt if anyone would
>> notice a
>> change in their electricity bill one way or the other.
>
> But that's assuming that all the energy used goes into evaporating
> water. In the case of air drying that's true. In the case of heated
> drying, it's hard to believe. The heat leaks into the environment
> (not a total loss, of course, as the furnace runs less, but not a wash
> either, since resistance heating is usually much more costly than the
> furnace's heat). I don't have any figures for the percentage of total
> heat used that evaporates water, but would guess it's a small
> percentage. The rest goes into making the dishwasher warm, leaving
> the plates warm.
>
> (It's all theoretical to me, I've never had a dishwasher.)
>
> Dave

Ahahahahaha. . . .

Folks, it's a dishwasher... a marvel of modern *convenience*, something no
one actually *needs*, but a major part of the convenience is the dry
feature... if you open the unit right after it shuts off the dishes will be
so hot that they will fully air dry in minutes... but if opened hours after
it's fully cooled down (like in the morning) condensation will have formed
inside the machine. I typically start my dishwasher last thing before
retiring for the night, then I set the heated dry feature because I hate
opening the dishwasher and finding many of the dishes covered with
droplets.... the heated dry doesn't need to be used all the time, that's why
there is a button that gives you a choice to exercise your brain. Never
using the dry feature is like folks who install central AC but never use it
unless it's like 100 degrees (and then they set it at 90), like buying a
Porsche but being ascared to drive over 45 mph, like installing a fancy
schmancy hydro jet tub but never using it other than something to dust and
show off because it uses too much hot water, like buying nice living room
furniture covered with silk brocade but covering it with clear plastic slip
covers in hopes it won't ever wear, like roping off the living room so no
one walks on your horrid dago robin's egg blue plush carpeting. The heated
dry feature on a dishwasher uses so little energy compared to the total
energy it consumes that it's negligible... I bet yoose types are so cheap
yoose haven't bought a new toothbrush in like twenty years... yoose are all
just a buncha mental masturbators over silly minutia.

In fact I just got off the phone with the Maytag help desk, they varified
that choosing the heated dry feature only slightly extends the heated dry
that comes on anyway as part of the standard clean cycle... that the energy
cost savings by not choosing the heated dry feature is miniscule and
insignificant compared with the total energy consumed in using a dishwasher
(naturally they couldn't give me an actual dollar amount as electric rates
differ). Think about it, how many times a week does someone use their
dishwasher... tops I use mine twice, that's 100 times a year... by not using
the heated dry feature I'd save like 10¢, that's a whole $10/yr... and I'd
lose the convenience of not having to wait with the door open for the dishes
to fully dry or having to wipe... I don't know about the slobs but I don't
like to stack my dishes in the cabinet with water droplets... then moisture
gets trapped between stacked dishes, very unsanitary... wiping by hand is
also unsanitary, negates the main purpose of an Auto dishwasher, minimally
handled dishes. And dishwashers do indeed contain a blower, that's what
circulates the heated air at the end in order to dry the dishes, choosing
the heated dry feature merely lets the blower circulate the heated air a few
minutes longer. If I listen carefully I can hear the blower running
(because nothing else is running at the end) and I can see the vapor blowing
out the front vent, it's a very small blower and a very small heater, but it
works in that very small space. There is also a water heater, that uses
much more energy than the dry heater. There is a definite savings in energy
and the dishwasher will operate better if the water at the kitchen sink is
run till it runs hot before turning on the dishwasher... my Maytag manual
explains that and even says to test the water at the sink by runing it into
cup and checking with a thermometer, optimally it should read 140ºF, or the
dishwasher's water heater will have to make up the difference and that
heater will cost a lot more to run than the drying heater, it's also cheaper
to let your domestic hot water heater do the work... initially running with
water not hot enough will negatively affect the performance of the
dishwashing compounds... everyone's plumbing is different but typically a
gallon of cold water comes out the hot water tap before it turns hot...
filling the dishwasher with cold water wastes more energy than the heated
dry feature uses. I just read my owner's manual again, a lot of good stuff
in there I missed/forgotten since I read it 5 years ago, the machine has
features I didn't know about.

Not using your modern dishwasher's heated dry feature saves less energy than
not using your modern frost free refrigerator freezer to make ice, and makes
as much sense... just don't fill the ice cube trays, you'll save enough to
take an around the world cruise... maybe in about forty life times. I
wonder how many of yoose imbeciles believe you have to change the air in
your car tires every 6,000 miles.

On May 15, 9:47*am, "brooklyn1" > wrote:
> *I
> wonder how many of yoose imbeciles believe you have to change the air in
> your car tires every 6,000 miles.

With the newer tires you can safely go as long as 10,000 between air
changes.

--Bryan

On Fri, 15 May 2009 09:07:24 -0500, wrote:

>On Fri, 15 May 2009 09:56:30 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty"
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>> I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
>>> unless you live in a one room studio.
>>
>>The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains: if
>>you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for living, then
>>the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately be sent into
>>the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the furnace does NOT
>>have to supply.
>>
>>In a studio apartment, it may be a significant percentage of the total
>>heat needed to raise the inside temperature of the apartment. In a
>>large house, it may be a very small percentage of the total heat needed.
>>Regardless, it is heat and it will have an effect--in other words, it
>>won't go to waste.
>>
>>However, when you're using the A/C in summer, the added heat load of the
>>dry cycle is heat that the A/C must work HARDER at to remove from the
>>inside of the house--again, regardless of whether it's a studio
>>apartment or a large house.
>
>
>But the added humidity from the dry cycle is a deffinate bonus

Not in the south in the middle of the summer. The A/C is running hard
to take the humidity out.
--
Susan N.

"Moral indignation is in most cases two percent moral,
48 percent indignation, and 50 percent envy."
Vittorio De Sica, Italian movie director (1901-1974)

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> > The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains:
>> > if you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for
>> > living, then the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately
>> > be sent into the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the
>> > furnace does NOT have to supply.
>>
>> Eh, I don't think my dishwasher heat really reaches the thermostat
>> to any measurable degree.
>
> Ummmm.....absolutely it does.
>
> Are you an artist?

MEASURABLE degree. how many BTU does a warming cycle put out? sure, all of
it ends up in the house, but how many minutes of furnace time does it equate
to?

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>
>> I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
>> unless you live in a one room studio.
>
> The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains: if
> you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for living, then
> the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately be sent into
> the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the furnace does NOT
> have to supply.
>
> In a studio apartment, it may be a significant percentage of the total
> heat needed to raise the inside temperature of the apartment. In a
> large house, it may be a very small percentage of the total heat needed.
> Regardless, it is heat and it will have an effect--in other words, it
> won't go to waste.
>
> However, when you're using the A/C in summer, the added heat load of the
> dry cycle is heat that the A/C must work HARDER at to remove from the
> inside of the house--again, regardless of whether it's a studio
> apartment or a large house.

All absolutely true. That's why as much as possible I refrain from using my
oven during warm months but instead plan to prepare food on my outdoor
grill, and use paper plates when practical, and in fact it's warm climates
that encourage/promote the entire outdoor cooking/eating industry. I save
the heavy indoor cooking for the winter months, when it helps heat the
house. It's really pretty dopey to refrain from occasionally/appropriately
using the heated dry feature of a dishwasher by claiming that wastes energy,
but then regularly light off a big indoor oven, typically on the hottest
summer days, and then just to bake a silly tube of biscuits or a couple
spuds. I realize that folks have all kinds of strange routines they follow
religiously without realizing why, like eating toast for breakfast during
summer but having yogurt during winter, but then don't try to explaining
ones odd behavior by claiming it saves energy/money when it does not. I
have nothing against frugality but I detest dopeyness.

wrote:
> "Elmo P. S > wrote:
>> "Nancy Young" > wrote:
>>
>>> I can't really get behind this dishwasher as home heating device
>>> unless you live in a one room studio.
>>
>>The size of the house has nothing to do with it. The fact remains: if
>>you need to add heat to the home to make it comfortable for living, then
>>the heat from the dishwasher's dry cycle will ultimately be sent into
>>the inside of the home itself. That is heat that the furnace does NOT
>>have to supply.
>>
>>In a studio apartment, it may be a significant percentage of the total
>>heat needed to raise the inside temperature of the apartment. In a
>>large house, it may be a very small percentage of the total heat needed.
>>Regardless, it is heat and it will have an effect--in other words, it
>>won't go to waste.
>>
>>However, when you're using the A/C in summer, the added heat load of the
>>dry cycle is heat that the A/C must work HARDER at to remove from the
>>inside of the house--again, regardless of whether it's a studio
>>apartment or a large house.
>
>
> But the added humidity from the dry cycle is a _deffinate_ bonus

Why would one want to add humidity to an air conditioned space, in fact
dehumidifying is the primary function of an air conditioner, cooling is
secondary... many folks over engineer their AC system by going overboard on
the BTUs, but then it cools too quickly and shuts down before it can wring
out moisture, then no matter how low the thermostat is set they will be
living in a cold clammy house. I assume you meant to type *defecate*...
what an asshole! LOL