On Sat, 16 May 2009 21:21:35 -0500, Dave Garland
> wrote:

>sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 00:08:02 -0500, Dave Garland
>> > wrote:
>>> True. That's what toaster ovens are for.
>>>
>> Those things make a room hotter than a regular (self cleaning) oven
>> with the door closed will.
>
>Not in my experience. Toaster ovens aren't as well insulated, but
>they're much smaller. Not counting the heat (energy) that is lost
>heating the oven itself up, heat is lost through the surface area. My
>regular oven has about 8.5 sq ft surface area (height+depth)*width,
>and takes maybe 15 minutes to get up to temperature. My small toaster
>oven has about 1 sq ft surface area and is up to temperature in under
>a minute.
>
>Ultimately, all that heat energy (less whatever tiny amount was
>absorbed in changing the food chemistry) ends up in your room (and
>costing you money).
>
I had an old fashioned not insulated toaster oven years ago. That
thing put out a lot more heat than my less than new self cleaning oven
ever did. It was never a problem because I live in an area that is
rarely warm, so ambient heat in the kitchen on most days is fine by
me.


--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Oops, calculated the surface area wrong.

29"x21"x21" is 29*84+2*21*21 = 3318 sq in = 23 sq ft
12"x6"x5" is 12*22+2*6*5 = 324 sq in = 2.2 sq ft

23 sq ft surface area for the regular oven, vs. 2.2 for the toaster oven.

I also use a shelftop electric oven about the size of a microwave (it
actually is a microwave too, but a 500W microwave is too underpowered
to be useful). That's as well insulated as my big oven, judging by
how warm it gets in use.

I do believe in sizing the cooker to the food. A fullsize oven to
roast 2 potatoes is wasteful.

Dave

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
> wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>> sf > wrote:
>>
>>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>>
>>Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>>great one at a great price.
>>
>>There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>>
> Noted! Thanks for the update.
>

Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the
house... unless you're using your toaster oven outdoors. Most toaster ovens
aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may have a
few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically controled.
The insulated units that are thermostatically controlled are not toaster
ovens, they are countertop ovens... full function ovens that happen to be
portable. ALL energy consuming appliances produce heat that when operating
heats whatever space in which they are located.... even a battery operated
wrist watch produces some heat, in fact so does a wind up clock... miniscule
though it may be it literally transforms the energy expended in winding to
heat, over time... yes, that little wind up mantel clock does help to heat
your house.. not only does it tell time it is also an energy/heat storage
device... with enough wind up clocks running in your home you won't have any
heating bills, this is absolutely true.

"brooklyn1" > wrote in message
news
>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>> sf > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>>>
>>>Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>>>great one at a great price.
>>>
>>>There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>>>
>> Noted! Thanks for the update.
>>
>
> Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the
> house... unless you're using your toaster oven outdoors. Most toaster
> ovens aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may
> have a few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically
> controled. The insulated units that are thermostatically controlled are
> not toaster ovens, they are countertop ovens... full function ovens that
> happen to be portable.

But once again you missed the point, nimrod.
They're smaller.
Smaller.

It's like shitting in a swimming pool vs. shitting in a toilet.


I will agree that electric heat is 100% efficient as all energy (even that
used in the thermostat) is converted to heat.


TFM®

brooklyn1 wrote:

> Most toaster ovens
> aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may have a
> few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically controled.

My extremely cheap GE toaster oven (acquired at a garage sale for $1,
it was probably around $20 new) has a thermostat. No visible
insulation, but a thermostat that can be set to any arbitrary temperature.

Every image I can find online for toaster ovens _appears_ to have a
continuously adjustable thermostat. The diagrams on fixit sites like
howstuffworks and fixitclub show thermostats. But I'm in the US,
maybe where you live it's different.

Dave

On Sat, 16 May 2009 22:36:07 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> wrote:

>

>>
>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression and
>> the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>
>Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to a stove
>you really wanted, and according to your posts you still agonized over the
>decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse, not because the stove
>isn't worth it, but because you are still not comfortable with whether you
>are worth it. It's not easy to give up old taboos... many times I wonder
>whether my parents would approve of my decisions. Anyone who tells me they
>don't consider their parent's approval, even about how much toothpaste they
>put on their toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal. Every normal
>person lives their entire life considering parental approval regarding all
>the minutia of their life.
>
What about orphans?
Besides that, many have serious disagreements with parents, admit to
it, and are not criminal. There are plenty of bad parents who should
not be emulated, approved of, or given much consideration at all when
their children make their own decisions.
You sound like some Freudian tract here.
Not to say you didn't have fine parents, and have legitimate cause to
feel as you do.
One size does not fit all.

--Vic

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> sf > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>>> Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>>> great one at a great price.
>>>
>>> There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>>>
>> Noted! Thanks for the update.
>>
>
> Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the
> house... unless you're using your toaster oven outdoors. Most toaster ovens
> aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may have a
> few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically controled.

Even the cheapest ones are thermostatically controlled. The heat
settings aren't settings at all, it sets the trip point for when the
element turns on or off.

On Sun, 17 May 2009 14:15:48 GMT, brooklyn1 wrote:

> Most toaster ovens
> aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat... they may have a
> few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically controled.

More bullshit. I've never had a toaster oven that *doesn't* have a
thermostat that can be set for any tremperature (up to 425F at
least), and that cycles on on off as it cooks according to the
temeperature inside.

Which has nothing to do with insulation, BTW.

Why do feel the need to make up all this shit? Nobody beleives you,
so you're not exactly impressing asnybody. What makes you tick like
this?

-sw

Vic Smith wrote:
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 22:36:07 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>
>>>
>>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the
>>> Depression and the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>>
>> Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to
>> a stove you really wanted, and according to your posts you still
>> agonized over the decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse,
>> not because the stove isn't worth it, but because you are still not
>> comfortable with whether you are worth it. It's not easy to give up
>> old taboos... many times I wonder whether my parents would approve
>> of my decisions. Anyone who tells me they don't consider their
>> parent's approval, even about how much toothpaste they put on their
>> toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal. Every normal person
>> lives their entire life considering parental approval regarding all
>> the minutia of their life.

> What about orphans?

> Besides that, many have serious disagreements with parents,
> admit to it, and are not criminal. There are plenty of bad parents
> who should not be emulated, approved of, or given much
> consideration at all when their children make their own decisions.

And plenty just decide to reject their parents values, whether thats because
the parent is a drunk, a wife basher, or even just an obsessive scrouge etc.

> You sound like some Freudian tract here.

Just completely out of her ****ing tree and doesnt have a ****ing clue.

> Not to say you didn't have fine parents, and
> have legitimate cause to feel as you do.

I had fine parents too, both now dead, but still have enough of a clue
to decide for myself on a number of fundamental issues like frugality.

I also realised when still a school kid that my dad, while quite
mechanically competant, just didnt seem to be able to judge how
strong to make something and that would see much of what he
made not last very long because it just wasnt strong enough.

I tend to err on the other side and general make stuff out of welded steel
whereas he never did get into welding and made stuff out of wood instead.

> One size does not fit all.

And its too stupid to even notice.

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "brooklyn1" > wrote:
>
>> Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the
>> house...
>
> yes, but insulation reduces the total amount of heat the mechanism needs
> to generate in order to get the desired result of "cooked food".

This is also true... which is why for the short time I did own a toaster
oven I only used it during the heating season. I don't like toaster ovens,
I don't think they are very safe.... I don't want something that creates
that kind of heat sitting on my countertop directly under my upper
cabinets... even the insulated ones throw out heat, and more heat because
they are larger and more powerful. I got rid of mine some 40 years ago when
nearly half my neighbor's house burned from forgetting a toaster oven was
left on, and it was from some greasy food igniting. A broiler in a stove is
dangerous enough, toaster ovens need to be outlawed. Never ever leave your
kitchen with your broiler on, deep fryer neither.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 17 May 2009 03:46:39 GMT, jt august >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In article >,
>>> sf > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nice to hear they've improved! It's about time.
>>>
>>> Not all, sadly. You need to shop around. I got lucky in finding a
>>> great one at a great price.
>>>
>>> There are still plenty that are not insulated.
>>>
>> Noted! Thanks for the update.

> Whether insulated or not *all* the heat they produce still ends up in the house... unless you're using your toaster
> oven outdoors.

Yes, but the point you keep missing is that a much smaller insulated
toaster oven uses a lot less heat to heat say an individual pie than
a full sized convential oven does and that there is a lot less surface
area with the toaster oven than the full sized oven so that even when
they are both just as well insulated, and the same internal temp is
used in both cases, you get a lot more heat into the house with the
full sized oven, just because its got much more surface area.

> Most toaster ovens aren't insulated because those don't have a thermostat...

Wrong on both counts.

> they may have a few heat settings (Hi, Med, Low) but they're not thermostatically controled.

Wrong, as always. Most of them are.

> The insulated units that are thermostatically controlled are not toaster ovens, they are countertop ovens... full
> function ovens that happen to be portable.

Wrong as always. They are toaster ovens because you can toast stuff in them.

Conventional ovens usually have a separate griller section.

> ALL energy consuming appliances produce heat that when operating
> heats whatever space in which they are located.... even a battery
> operated wrist watch produces some heat, in fact so does a wind up
> clock... miniscule though it may be it literally transforms the
> energy expended in winding to heat, over time...

Yes, but they dont all have the same surface area, so when you have
the same internal temp and the same insulation, the bigger over will loose
more heat to the room just because of the much bigger surface area.

> yes, that little wind up mantel clock does help to heat your house.. not only does it tell time it is also an
> energy/heat storage device... with enough wind up clocks running in your home you won't have any heating bills, this
> is absolutely true.

Nope, because they wont all fit in the house if you go that route.

"Vic Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 16 May 2009 22:36:07 GMT, "brooklyn1"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>
>>>
>>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the Depression and
>>> the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>>
>>Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to a
>>stove
>>you really wanted, and according to your posts you still agonized over the
>>decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse, not because the stove
>>isn't worth it, but because you are still not comfortable with whether you
>>are worth it. It's not easy to give up old taboos... many times I wonder
>>whether my parents would approve of my decisions. Anyone who tells me
>>they
>>don't consider their parent's approval, even about how much toothpaste
>>they
>>put on their toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal. Every normal
>>person lives their entire life considering parental approval regarding all
>>the minutia of their life.
>>
> What about orphans?
> Besides that, many have serious disagreements with parents, admit to
> it, and are not criminal. There are plenty of bad parents who should
> not be emulated, approved of, or given much consideration at all when
> their children make their own decisions.
> You sound like some Freudian tract here.
> Not to say you didn't have fine parents, and have legitimate cause to
> feel as you do.
> One size does not fit all.
>
>

Even orphans have authority figures who raised them... are you trying to say
you were raised by wolves or apes, or are you a psychopath? The more awful
the parent the harder children work at approval issues. "Good" parents
shadow a child its entire life. A "bad" parent haunts a child its entire
life. Contrary to what many may believe it's the 'bad' parent who has the
greater influence.

On May 13, 8:44*am, "Nancy Young" > wrote:
> The Henchman wrote:
> > for clean dishes. *To save a buck on hydro we let the dishes air dry
> > instead of dw dryer.
>
> I think that's a total waste of resources, however you want
> to put it. *I never use heated dry.
>
> nancy



My dishwasher is less than six months old. I use Electrasol -
(Finish). We have a water softener and I have to cut the laundry
detergent down to a fraction of what the instructions call for when I
wash clothes. I wonder what I can do about the dish washer. I use
the tablets and have stockpiled several boxes because it went on sale
BOGO and I had some large coupons. (So, no, I don't want to change to
powder). Any suggestions about what I can do to be sure the dishes
are free of soap. I have Corelle and recently bought new because of
black etch marks on some of the pieces - the edges to be exact. Never
thought of detergent being the culprit.

brooklyn1 wrote:
> "Vic Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 16 May 2009 22:36:07 GMT, "brooklyn1"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Those are common traits among those that lived during the
>>>> Depression and the World Wars when every tiny thing counted.
>>>
>>> Exactly. It took you most of your life before treating yourself to
>>> a stove
>>> you really wanted, and according to your posts you still agonized
>>> over the decision. Perhaps you still have buyers remorse, not
>>> because the stove isn't worth it, but because you are still not
>>> comfortable with whether you are worth it. It's not easy to give
>>> up old taboos... many times I wonder whether my parents would
>>> approve of my decisions. Anyone who tells me they
>>> don't consider their parent's approval, even about how much
>>> toothpaste they
>>> put on their toothbrush, is either a liar or a criminal. Every
>>> normal person lives their entire life considering parental approval
>>> regarding all the minutia of their life.
>>>
>> What about orphans?
>> Besides that, many have serious disagreements with parents, admit to
>> it, and are not criminal. There are plenty of bad parents who should
>> not be emulated, approved of, or given much consideration at all when
>> their children make their own decisions.
>> You sound like some Freudian tract here.
>> Not to say you didn't have fine parents, and have legitimate cause to
>> feel as you do.
>> One size does not fit all.

> Even orphans have authority figures who raised them...

Wrong. Those that never got out of institutions until they were adults didnt.

> are you trying to say you were raised by wolves or apes, or are you a psychopath?

He's succeeding in rubbing your nose in the stupidity of your claim.

> The more awful the parent the harder children work at approval issues.

Wrong again. Plenty of kids realise how bad the bad parents are and just reject their value.

Even if that parent is just hopeless at getting a decent job etc.

> "Good" parents shadow a child its entire life.

Mindlessly silly. Good parents realise that what its about is
getting the child into a situation where it can look after itself.

Because it will have to do that eventually when the parents are dead.

> A "bad" parent haunts a child its entire life.

Utterly mangled all over again. Plenty of people have enough of a clue
to be able to see the deficiencys that bad parents have. With the worst
parents, plenty of kids with a clue just have nothing to do with them at all.

> Contrary to what many may believe it's the 'bad' parent who has the greater influence.

Presumably you actually are that stupid.

"Dorothy" > wrote in message
news:f9c07079-81da-4963-a4c2-
My dishwasher is less than six months old. I use Electrasol -
(Finish). We have a water softener and I have to cut the laundry
detergent down to a fraction of what the instructions call for when I
wash clothes. I wonder what I can do about the dish washer. I use
the tablets and have stockpiled several boxes because it went on sale
BOGO and I had some large coupons. (So, no, I don't want to change to
powder). Any suggestions about what I can do to be sure the dishes
are free of soap. I have Corelle and recently bought new because of
black etch marks on some of the pieces - the edges to be exact. Never
thought of detergent being the culprit.

*********************************

We use Cascade liquid and put in what we need

"Elmo P. Shagnasty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "brooklyn1" > wrote:
>
>> I don't like toaster ovens,
>> I don't think they are very safe.... I don't want something that creates
>> that kind of heat sitting on my countertop directly under my upper
>> cabinets... even the insulated ones throw out heat, and more heat because
>> they are larger and more powerful. I got rid of mine some 40 years ago
>> when
>> nearly half my neighbor's house burned from forgetting a toaster oven was
>> left on, and it was from some greasy food igniting. A broiler in a stove
>> is
>> dangerous enough, toaster ovens need to be outlawed. Never ever leave
>> your
>> kitchen with your broiler on, deep fryer neither.
>
> wow....so rather than nail individuals for being irresponsible, you'd
> rather simply acknowledge that all people are idiots and need protected
> from their idiot selves.
>
> But who will protect them? Other idiots?
>

Nope. That's what lawyers are for.