"Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq." > wrote
>
> The rich and powerful write the "Laws" for their own benifit.
>
> Occasioanly human history gets the rarerich and powerful altuist who
> writes something like "man is endowed by his Creator with certain
> inalienable rights," and that among these are life, liberty, and the
> pursuit of happiness..."
> Written by a slave owner who had the chance to purchase what it thought of
> as happiness, no matter how transitory it was.
>
> Understand first that the Disturbers of the Peace of Mankind do so by
> Reason of their Ignorance of their own true Wills. ...

You are very wise, Joseph.

On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:07:06 -0700, "Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq."
> wrote:

>
>
>blake murphy wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:23:10 -0400, Bob Muncie wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Goomba wrote:
>>>
>>>>Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
>>>>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>So are you saying lazy-useless-parasites should decide the fate of
>>>>>>those who not only have dreams, but follow through on them?
>>>>>
>>>>>I agree with you up to a point. Of course, healthy, well adjusted
>>>>>responsible people should ultimately set the social tone. But, too
>>>>>often, that tone becomes dismissive or discriminatory against the poor
>>>>>or less fortunate.
>>>>
>>>>Or conversely it becomes discriminatory against those who have worked
>>>>hard to take care of themselves or are fortunate in some fashion. It
>>>>seems more "acceptable" to some to punish them then.
>>>>
>>>> If poor people
>>>>
>>>>>expect society to step in and help them raise their kids, they must be
>>>>>prepared to be scrutinized and even punished for refusing to do
>>>>>everything they can to improve their lot or prevent it in the first
>>>>>place. That should be the price of public assistance.
>>>>>
>>>>>Orlando
>>>>
>>>>I'll certainly agree with this statement.
>>>
>>>Isn't that the current status of th "middle class"? To carry the brunt
>>>of the tax burden for everyone else?
>>>
>>>Tell it to the wallet if you think otherwise :-(
>>
>>
>> then i think your beef is with the rich who skate on much of their tax
>> burden, not the poor who get some crumbs out of the deal.
>>
>> blake


Is this all you do, quote from books? Do you not have any language
skill, or do you prefer to hide behind someone else's quotes?


>The rich and powerful write the "Laws" for their own benifit.
>
>Occasioanly human history gets the rarerich and powerful altuist who
>writes something like "man is endowed by his Creator with certain
>inalienable rights," and that among these are life, liberty, and the
>pursuit of happiness..."
>Written by a slave owner who had the chance to purchase what it thought
>of as happiness, no matter how transitory it was.
>
>Understand first that the Disturbers of the Peace of Mankind do so by
>Reason of their Ignorance of their own true Wills. Therefore as this
>Wisdom of mine increaseth among Mankind, the false Will to Crime must
>become constantly more rare. Also, the Exercise of our Freedom will
>cause Men to be born with less and ever less Affliction from that
>Dis-Ease of Spirit, which breedeth these false Wills. But, in the while
>of waiting for this Perfection, thou must by Law assure to every Man a
>Means of satisfying his bodily and his mental Needs, leaving him free to
>develop any Super-Structure in Accordance with his Will, and protecting
>him from any that may seek to deprive him of these vertebral Rights.
>There shall be therefore a Standard of Satisfaction, though it must vary
>in Detail with Race, Climate, and other such Conditions. And this
>Standard shall be based upon a large Interpretation of Facts biological,
>physiological, and the like.
>
>There shall be no Property in Human Flesh. Every Man and every Woman
>hath Right Indefeasable to give the Body for the Enjoyment of any other.
>The Exercise of this Right shall not be punished either by Law or by
>Custom; there shall be no Penalty either by Loss or Curtailment of
>Liberty, of Rights, of Wealth, or of Social Esteem; but this Freedom
>shall be respected of all, seeing that it is the Right of the Bodily
>Will. For this same Reason thou shalt cause full Restriction and
>Punishment of any who may seek to limit that Freedom for the sake of his
>own Profit, or Desire, or Ideal. Every Man and every Woman has full
>right either to grant or to deny the Body, as the Will speaketh within.
>This being made Custom, the Evils of Love, which are many, extending to
>the Disturbance not only of Body but of Mind, and that in obscure Paths,
>shall little by little disappear from the Face of His unspeakable Glory.
>
>There shall be no Property in Human Thought. Let each think as he will
>concerning the Universe; but let none seek to impose that Thought upon
>another by any Threat of Penalty in this World or any other World. Look
>now, though I enkindle thee to Effort in thy Way, yet it is the Way of
>thy Will, and I say not even that thou dost well to hasten therein, for
>the whole Matter lieth in thy Will, and to force thyself against thy
>Nature would be an Obstacle to thy Passage. But if I urge thee to run
>well this Race as an Athlete, it is because I have perceived in thy
>Nature that fierce Lust and mighty Concentration in that Will, and I
>write this Letter unto thee, knowing well that thou wilt rejoice
>exceedingly therein, since it is an Expression of thine own Will, and it
>may be a Discovery thereof, which Thing thou vehemently seekest. I
>charge thee therefore that thou permit none to tyrannize any other in
>Thought, or to threaten, or in any other Wise to blaspheme the great
>Liberty of our Father the Sun in the Great Cosmos, or of His Viceregent
>in the Little.

On Jun 11, 7:10*pm, Becca > wrote:

> Chris, please be prepared for them to take your well made spaghetti
> sauce, and mix it in a vat with everyone else's. *Just be prepared for
> this to happen. *Yes, I know it hurts. *lol
>
> Becca

I've never seen a potluck where they mixed everyone's offerings,
except at the end when they're consilidating dishes so there's room
for the desserts to come out.

maxine in ri

Michel Boucher wrote:
> blake murphy > wrote in news:140kanibsofdo
> :
>
>> income taxes are a communist plot. everybody knows that, or at least
>> everybody in texas.
>
> So the government of Texas is communist?
>

Maybe that's the real reason on why they want to secede :-)

Bob

On Jun 12, 9:19*am, "ViLco" > wrote:
> Chris wrote:
> > I have to bring spaghetti and meatballs (pasta separate from sauce +
> > meatballs) to a dinner at my son's school tomorrow night.
>
> > They can keep food warm, but cannot cook on a stovetop. *I'm not sure
> > whether they have regular ovens, convection, or just warming ovens.
>
> > Dinner is at 6:00; they want the food there by 5:30; it will take me
> > half an hour to get there and lug my stuff in to the school. *So
> > basically, I have to cook my pasta over an hour before it will be
> > eaten
>
> In a situation like that one, I'd never aim for pasta: pasta cooked an hour
> before consumption has no chances of being good, no matter how you cook and
> sotre it. But if this is what they want from you, I'd say... call Barilla in
>
> 60 seconds for a steaming hot dish of pasta with it's dressing, and note the
> blue paper glasses... stylish:
>
Being at the end of better than a dozen years of school pot lucks and
dinners. I've brought all sorts of healthy things to these sorts of
meetings, and found I'm bringing the whole thing home again.
Especially with younger kids, you serve what you know will be eaten.
Also, given the timeframe involved, I can see where spagetti and sauce
would be a better option than almost anything else. It doesn't go bad
in an hour at room temperature, so there's less chance of someone
getting sick from it. Add a little water to loosen the stuck mass of
the spagetti, and it's easily served. What, someone doesn't like
tomato sauce (DD waves her hand)? Fine, here's your plate of plain
noodles. Salt and pepper away.

I'm not talking gourmet, here, just feeding a lot of people before a
school program. The school is probably supplying salad or veggie
sticks (kids will eat anything they can dip in something else),
colored, sweetened water, and if the parents are lucky, an urn of hot
black water, aka coffee.

BTW, Chris, how did it go?

maxine in ri

On Jun 14, 1:49*pm, wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:07:06 -0700, "Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq."

> Is this all you do, quote from books? Do you not have any language
> skill, or do you prefer to hide behind someone else's quotes?
>
Sometimes, someone else has said it well already, and there's no point
in reinventing the wheel. JL writes often enough in his own words.

maxien in ri

> wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:07:06 -0700, "Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq."
> > wrote:
>

>
>
> Is this all you do, quote from books? Do you not have any language
> skill, or do you prefer to hide behind someone else's quotes?
>

Don't hate Joseph because he is educated. Better yourself.

blake murphy wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 17:13:28 -0400, George wrote:
>
>> blake murphy wrote:
>>> On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:43:12 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>>>
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Michel Boucher > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> So are you saying lazy-useless-parasites should decide the fate
>>>>>> of those who not only have dreams, but follow through on them?
>>>>> No, I'm saying those who have dreams should follow them but not
>>>>> insist others do the same.
>>>> But you insist that they support the lazy and unambitious?
>>>> Especially when they tend to breed like flies?
>>>
>>> you'd rather they die like flies instead?
>>>
>>> blake
>>
>> Nice try to totally twist the meaning of her reply and add lots of
>> drama but I am 100% sure that you know exactly what her post meant.
>
> 'breeding like flies' seems to imply that the underclass is somehow
> subhuman. i have a problem with that.


Take the Magick Metro down to SE, blake, and you'll see that there is some
merit to the concept...


--
Best
Greg

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> On Sat 13 Jun 2009 10:24:39p, Orlando Enrique Fiol told us...
>
>> wrote:
>>> What do you get when you feed starving people?
>>> More starving people.
>>
>> Not always. We throw away enough food to feed the hungry. If we were
>> to get all that food into the mouths of those who need it the most,
>> we'd harm the environment less with all our garbage from wasted food
>> surpluses.
>>
>>> People should not breed what they cannot afford to support.
>>> It's not fair to the rest of us that breed responsibly...
>>> Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm seriously in to personal
>>> responsibility!
>>
>> We ironically agree here. It does no one any good for innocent
>> children to be brought into this world by parents who can barely
>> feed themselves. The only problem with this logic is that if the
>> poor didn't'breed, the wealthy wouldn't have a steadily
>> replenishable low wage work force to do everything they consider
>> beneath them; that would grind capitalism to a halt.
>>
>> Orlando
>>
>
> I work hard for what little I have, and I greatly resent having to
> help support those who make absolutely no effort to support
> themselves or their ill-conceived offspring.


Well, Lil' Wayne, you can always seduce the ill-conceived (male)
offspring...so they are of *some* use, eh...???

;-)


--
Best
Greg

Michel Boucher wrote:

> Goomba > wrote in news:79jd31F1q5c8rU2
> @mid.individual.net:
>
>> Sometimes good ideas can come out of the "elite" class, y'know?
>> To make such blanket statements as Boucher does strikes me as class
>> envy and discrimination. But apparently its *okay* to discriminate
>> against anyone who has more or has done more, no matter how they
>> obtained it.
>
> Did Bill O'Reilly write that for you? It seems to contains many of
> his favourite talking points.


Maybe Bill O'Reilly is correct...I know that Goomba is!

;-)


--
Best
Greg

blake murphy wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 22:58:00 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> Michel Boucher > wrote:
>>
>>> George > wrote in
>>> - september.org:
>>>
>>>> So it sounds like you are saying that if someone is capable of
>>>> being productive but decides not to they should be provided with
>>>> not only essentials but everything someone might want such as a
>>>> large house, multiple vehicles, large screen TVs in every room,
>>>> large clothing and entertainment allowance, vacation vouchers for
>>>> the family and whatever else they might want?
>>>
>>> Yes. But that's not likely to happen, is it.
>>
>> You wish.<g>
>>
>> Happens all the time here. I've SEEN it.
>
> this is bullshit. seen it *where*? it's fantasy.


The Netherlands. The poor and unemployed there even get a "holiday
allowance" so's they can take a "vacation"...


--
Best
Greg

On Sun 14 Jun 2009 10:26:34a, Michel Boucher told us...

> Wayne Boatwright > wrote in
> 5.247:
>
>> Because I have to recognize and live by those rules does not mean I
>> have to respect or condone them. Most governments have laws/rules
>> that people live by but don't agree with. This has been true down
>> thru the ages.
>
> However, society functions better if not everyone tries to make up their
> own self-serving rules. That should be obvious. Otherwise you might as
> well join the Friends of the BNP, head down to Washington with a .22
> caliber and your NSDAP armband and call yourself von Brunn. That is what
> your sort of complaints lead to, not social change but pointless random
> violence by some idiot who thinks "there oughta be a law".
>
> Significant social change will not happen BECAUSE you are disgruntled,
but
> probably in spite of it.
>

Please UNDERSTAND this, Michel. I said I greatly resent the situation, and
yes, I am disgruntled. That does not by any means mean that I have taken
or ever would take any action against it, either passively or actively.
However, that also does not by any means mean that I have to like it. I
abide by all of the crap that federal and local government dictates, just
like the majority of all the other sheep in this country.

I was only commenting on my opinion, not any action taken or planned. I
have other personal issues that are far more important to me than what the
damned government dishes out. It's not a subject I dwell on, but
occasionally express an opinion on when the subject is brought up.

I don't know you that well, but it's likely that you have issues with some
of the things the Canadian government has done. If not, then good for you.

Enough, okay?

--
Wayne Boatwright
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheese ~milk's leap toward immortality. ~Clifton Fadiman

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in news:_
:

>> Did Bill O'Reilly write that for you? It seems to contains many of
>> his favourite talking points.
>
> Maybe Bill O'Reilly is correct...I know that Goomba is!

Eeyew...Bill O`Really is not certainly NOT correct (although I'll comcede
that he is "right" :-) ).

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Wayne Boatwright > wrote in
5.247:

> Please UNDERSTAND this, Michel. I said I greatly resent the
> situation, and yes, I am disgruntled. That does not by any means mean
> that I have taken or ever would take any action against it, either
> passively or actively.

Please note that I did not suggest that you would, but some may, indeed
already have, based on their ill-formed opinion that others will support
their actions because they agree on one point. Wars have been waged for
less.

> I don't know you that well, but it's likely that you have issues with
> some of the things the Canadian government has done. If not, then
> good for you.

Actually, they're conservatives so it stands to reason that I find their
policies obscurantist and abstruse.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Michel Boucher wrote:

> "Gregory Morrow" > wrote in news:_
> :
>
>>> Did Bill O'Reilly write that for you? It seems to contains many of
>>> his favourite talking points.
>>
>> Maybe Bill O'Reilly is correct...I know that Goomba is!
>
> Eeyew...Bill O`Really is not certainly NOT correct (although I'll
> comcede that he is "right" :-) ).


Okay, I'm tired of matters "political" for a moment, so any "kitty" news at
your house...???

^..^


--
Best
Greg

"Gregory Morrow" > wrote in
m:

> Okay, I'm tired of matters "political" for a moment, so any "kitty"
> news at your house...???

The dogs left today for an extended stay in Nueva York. The cats have the
run of the household again which means they'll be able to stay out of my
room because I have developed allergies (my eyes mostly) to cat dander when
they were sleeping in there every night.

The male, Calvin, had an apprentice last summer, a young male named Keden,
who is now mature and contesting Calvin's dominance over the neighbourhood
(it's Kronos and Ouranos all over again). Keden is the cat of our second
neighbour over. Every now and then either Calvin or Keden will come in
with a bit of hair pulled out or a drop of blood on the ear or nose.
They're not biting yet.

The youngest, Suki, is diabetic, I think I mentioned that before. We have
to inject her with insulin twice a day at meal times. It keeps her sugar
level normal. She has now bonded with me as Calvin has bonded with my
wife.

Her mother, Kita, the eldest female, is the most popular cat in the
immediate vicinity, even tempered and sociable without being naive about
new people. She often visits at the neighbour's in the morning.

As I am retiring (but not shy about it) on Wednesday, I'll have more time
to spend opening and closing doors ;-)

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

In article >,
blake murphy > wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Jun 2009 21:30:13 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > blake murphy > wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:43:12 -0500, Omelet wrote:
> >>
> >>> In article >,
> >>> Michel Boucher > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> So are you saying lazy-useless-parasites should decide the fate of
> >>>>> those who not only have dreams, but follow through on them?
> >>>>
> >>>> No, I'm saying those who have dreams should follow them but not insist
> >>>> others do the same.
> >>>
> >>> But you insist that they support the lazy and unambitious?
> >>> Especially when they tend to breed like flies?
> >>
> >> you'd rather they die like flies instead?
> >>
> >> blake
> >
> > What do you get when you feed starving people?
> >
> > More starving people.
> >
> > People should not breed what they cannot afford to support.
> > It's not fair to the rest of us that breed responsibly...
> >
> > Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm seriously in to personal
> > responsibility!
>
> just about no one got where they are purely as a result of their own
> personal efforts. when growing up, you went to school that someone else
> paid for. your got to school on roads that someone else paid for. you are
> protected by a police force that somebody else paid for. etc., etc.
>
> the idea that everyone is solely responsible for their own success or
> failure is a false one, and some need more help than others.
>
> your pal,
> blake

I have no problem with them getting help, so long as they eventually
"get there" so they can start helping back. Not living their entire life
on the dole...
--
Peace! Om

Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.
It's about learning to dance in the rain.
-- Anon.


Subscribe:

Omelet > wrote in newsmpomelet-5B2AA5.16521114062009
@news-wc.giganews.com:

> I have no problem with them getting help, so long as they eventually
> "get there" so they can start helping back. Not living their entire life
> on the dole...

Like I said, you consies know the solution, you just don't like it.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Michel Boucher wrote:

>
> As I am retiring (but not shy about it) on Wednesday, I'll have more time
> to spend opening and closing doors ;-)
>

Congratulations. Life will expand to fill the void.

gloria p

Michel Boucher wrote:
> "Gregory Morrow" > wrote in
> m:
>
>> Okay, I'm tired of matters "political" for a moment, so any "kitty"
>> news at your house...???
>
> The dogs left today for an extended stay in Nueva York. The cats have the
> run of the household again which means they'll be able to stay out of my
> room because I have developed allergies (my eyes mostly) to cat dander when
> they were sleeping in there every night.
>
> The male, Calvin, had an apprentice last summer, a young male named Keden,
> who is now mature and contesting Calvin's dominance over the neighbourhood
> (it's Kronos and Ouranos all over again). Keden is the cat of our second
> neighbour over. Every now and then either Calvin or Keden will come in
> with a bit of hair pulled out or a drop of blood on the ear or nose.
> They're not biting yet.
>
> The youngest, Suki, is diabetic, I think I mentioned that before. We have
> to inject her with insulin twice a day at meal times. It keeps her sugar
> level normal. She has now bonded with me as Calvin has bonded with my
> wife.
>
> Her mother, Kita, the eldest female, is the most popular cat in the
> immediate vicinity, even tempered and sociable without being naive about
> new people. She often visits at the neighbour's in the morning.
>
> As I am retiring (but not shy about it) on Wednesday, I'll have more time
> to spend opening and closing doors ;-)
>

Congrats Michel. I assume you aren't leaving RFC, so I'm not going to
get chocked up, but I still would like to recognize your milestone.

Hope your retired life includes more happy, and less stress.

Bob

On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:24:46 -0500, Michel Boucher
> wrote:

>Then you end up with control freaks like Lou who think they can
>use insults to modify human behaviour.

Let me get this correct please. I've got 2 little blips in this
thread and you've got too many to count and I'm a control freak?

You mentioned income re-distribution and I'm a control freak? You and
your twisted ilk are nothing more than thieves. An inheritance tax is
no better than passing a car accident and stealing the wallets from
the dead people in the car.

You want me to feed the children of others and I'm a control freak?

At one time we were paying taxes in 3 different school districts.
We've only ever used one of the districts and just for a short time
for one kid for high school. None of out 3 kids EVER got a free meal.
We packed a lunch or gave them cafeteria money. We got rid of one
place and now only pay on two. I just got the tax bill on our
cottage. The school part is just short of $1,500. Not only is it
impossible for us to have more kids (even if we wanted more) I don't
even know where the schools are! I have no mortgage and our kids are
too old for deductions so I pay up the ass for taxes yet some (like
you) want more even though those who use social services the least
almost always pay far more than those who do. And I'm a control
freak?

I do believe in control. I strive to control myself and I do what I
can to stop thieves like your kind from stealing what I've worked for.

I could go on and on but I'd rather spray your eyes with malathion.

>If it happens, let me know because I want to go as far as possible in the
>opposite direction.

Please go north. We've got too many parasites in the states already.

Lou

"Omelet" > wrote in message
news
> In article >,
> blake murphy > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:43:12 -0500, Omelet wrote:
>>
>> > In article >,
>> > Michel Boucher > wrote:
>> >
>> >>> So are you saying lazy-useless-parasites should decide the fate of
>> >>> those who not only have dreams, but follow through on them?
>> >>
>> >> No, I'm saying those who have dreams should follow them but not insist
>> >> others do the same.
>> >
>> > But you insist that they support the lazy and unambitious?
>> > Especially when they tend to breed like flies?
>>
>> you'd rather they die like flies instead?
>>
>> blake
>
> What do you get when you feed starving people?
>
> More starving people.
>
> People should not breed what they cannot afford to support.
> It's not fair to the rest of us that breed responsibly...
>
> Sorry if that sounds harsh, but I'm seriously in to personal
> responsibility!
> --
> Peace! Om
>
> Life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass.
> It's about learning to dance in the rain.
> -- Anon.
>
>
> Subscribe:

wrote:
>But you are willing to enforce your ideas with power. Where will that
>power come from?

From the force of people who agree with what I'm proposing. I've never had
dictatorial ambitions; I only propose good ideas. If people don't think they're
good and don't want to implement them, I really don't mind.

>Why don't you just say what you really want, which is to kill the poor and
>rule over a nation which has been cleansed for the new super-race. Because
>basically, that's is exactly where you are going.

That's dumb. Why would I kill the poor when I was raised poor and am currently
far from rich? I don't want to kill anyone; I just want people to be more
responsible for their lives, not for religious or political motivations, but
because responsibility will improve people's lives. Do you think most poor
people enjoy living from paycheck to paycheck, eating badly, without proper
health care or decent housing? Even though most young mothers describe their
accidentally produced children as their pride and joy, I'm sure that sometimes,
in reflective moods, these young women realize how many opportunities were
stripped away by their youthful pregnancies. Who is really looking out for the
poor? The wealthy, who basically like the status quo? Other struggling poor?
The middle class who take potshots at them whenever possible? Parasites such as
drug dealers, numbers runners and corrupt clergy in their own communities? Gang
members or cops on the take? Who is actually trying to improve poor people's
lives? No one, because too many people depend on the poor remaining ignorant,
malnourished and saddled with children they can't afford to raise. So, I'm all
about the poor avoiding traps set for them, one of which is sex.

Orlando

wrote:
>'breeding like flies' seems to imply that the underclass is somehow
>subhuman. i have a problem with that.

Animals breed instinctively without concern for how their offspring will
survive, which is why they so often don't. Humans are supposed to be able to
balance instinctive urges against rational forethought. So, we're supposed to
be able to weigh desires for sexual intercourse against our ability to raise
children. If people simply have sex before they are in any way capable of
providing their offspring with even a basic quality of life, they are alas
breeding like animals do.

Orlando

wrote:
>just about no one got where they are purely as a result of their own
>personal efforts. when growing up, you went to school that someone else
>paid for. your got to school on roads that someone else paid for. you are
>protected by a police force that somebody else paid for. etc., etc.
>the idea that everyone is solely responsible for their own success or
>failure is a false one, and some need more help than others.

Some people do the exact opposite of what they know will help them and don't
even know why. Other people take help, swearing they won't get into the same
jams, but keep doing the same dumb stuff. What are we supposed to do with such
people when they resist or sabotage help but later demand care?

Orlando

wrote:
>Back the early 1980's I was back at University doing my master's in history
>and there were some single mothers on welfare in the complex I lived in
>(private non-profit mixed income housing). Back then single mothers (in
>Ontario...this was before the Mike Harris abomination) got a lot of
>support, and today every one of these women that I knew then, including my
>son's mother, has gotten herself off welfare and is pursuing a career.

If that were true here, there wouldn't have been generations stuck in a
welfare, crime, gang and prison cycle that is only barely abating today.

Orlando

"graham" ha scritto nel messaggio ...
>

Did you say anything? Because if you did, I couldn't find it.

"gloria.p" > wrote in
:

>> As I am retiring (but not shy about it) on Wednesday, I'll have more
>> time to spend opening and closing doors ;-)
>
> Congratulations. Life will expand to fill the void.

I have no shortage of projects. I am planning to design two board wargames,
one which will be a definitive game on the long Indochina war (1945-1975)
and a smaller one first on a never before covered topic.

I will read the great novels I have not had time to read: Germinal, Voyage
au bout de la nuit and Les trois mousquetaires, as well as La divina
commedia (in Italian, which means I will have to improve my Italian).

Then next month...:-)

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Bob Muncie > wrote in -
september.org:

> Hope your retired life includes more happy, and less stress.

Not having to deal with 308 wingnuts every day will certainly help.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Lou Decruss > wrote in
:

> I do believe in control. I strive to control myself and I do what I
> can to stop thieves like your kind from stealing what I've worked for.

Thieves like my kind...I have stolen nothing from anyone. I pay my taxes
and I don;t bitch about people who need assistance. I guess that makes me
a thief.

> I could go on and on but I'd rather spray your eyes with malathion.

Of course you would. And you're "not" a control freak.

>>If it happens, let me know because I want to go as far as possible in
>>the opposite direction.
>
> Please go north. We've got too many parasites in the states already.

I am north, you ****.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote in
:

> If people simply have sex before they are in any way capable of
> providing their offspring with even a basic quality of life, they are
> alas breeding like animals do.

And how do you propose to stop them? Chemicals in the food? Enforced
abortions? Sitting them down and having an "honest chat" with them in
hopes they'll see the error of their ways?

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote in
:

> If that were true here, there wouldn't have been generations stuck in a
> welfare, crime, gang and prison cycle that is only barely abating today.

Then your system sucks canal water majorly, as the turtles used to say.
I'd change it, but don't blame it on those who actually need the support
and don't make them responsible for your happiness.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote in
:

>>Why don't you just say what you really want, which is to kill the poor
>>and rule over a nation which has been cleansed for the new super-race.
>> Because basically, that's is exactly where you are going.
>
> That's dumb. Why would I kill the poor when I was raised poor and am
> currently far from rich?

I was trying to elicit a response as to what your eventual intentions were.
If you were raised poor as you say you should be aware of the limitations
the poor have in reaching any goal beyond survival. I have also been poor,
and I realize that poverty is not a stain or a failure. It is an economic
condition (usually imposed).

What I question is this "accepted wisdom" that everyone must work for a
living or that they must bear personal responsibility beyond their means to
achieve simply because it would please some people on RFC who feel their
taxes would be best spent on bigger and better guns.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

wrote:
>And how do you propose to stop them? Chemicals in the food? Enforced
>abortions? Sitting them down and having an "honest chat" with them in
>hopes they'll see the error of their ways?

Your last suggestion seems the most compassionate; I'll try that one first.

Orlando

wrote:
>I was trying to elicit a response as to what your eventual intentions were.
>If you were raised poor as you say you should be aware of the limitations
>the poor have in reaching any goal beyond survival. I have also been poor,
>and I realize that poverty is not a stain or a failure. It is an economic
>condition (usually imposed).

While I agree that poverty is an imposed economic condition, I don't believe it
is impossible to change.

>What I question is this "accepted wisdom" that everyone must work for a
>living or that they must bear personal responsibility beyond their means to
>achieve simply because it would please some people on RFC who feel their
>taxes would be best spent on bigger and better guns.


Careful there. If you knew how badly most poor people live, you wouldn't be
making excuses to justify their condition; you'd be doing everything possible
to help them transcend it. Personal responsibility as I see it is not in the
service of the middle or upper classes, but rather the poor themselves, who
stand the benefit the most from getting off their knees and no longer bending
over.

Orlando

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote in
:

> Your last suggestion seems the most compassionate; I'll try that one
> first.

And in the end you'll be forced to use coercion, which will put a definite
ugly face on your meister plan.

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

Orlando Enrique Fiol > wrote in
:

>>I was trying to elicit a response as to what your eventual intentions
>>were. If you were raised poor as you say you should be aware of the
>>limitations the poor have in reaching any goal beyond survival. I
>>have also been poor, and I realize that poverty is not a stain or a
>>failure. It is an economic condition (usually imposed).
>
> While I agree that poverty is an imposed economic condition, I don't
> believe it is impossible to change.

And it won't happen until there is a more equitable redistribution of
wealth.

>>What I question is this "accepted wisdom" that everyone must work for
>>a living or that they must bear personal responsibility beyond their
>>means to achieve simply because it would please some people on RFC who
>>feel their taxes would be best spent on bigger and better guns.
>
> Careful there.

You misunderstood the argument. Poverty aside, the argument that
everyone must pull their weight is total crap. It isn't necessary. But
if you start from there, the solution is a more equitable redistribution
of wealth. Even Dickens knew THAT.

-----

'Mr. and Mrs. M'Choakumchild never make any mistakes themselves, I
suppose, Sissy?'

'O no!' she eagerly returned. 'They know everything.'

'Tell me some of your mistakes.'

'I am almost ashamed,' said Sissy, with reluctance. 'But to-day,
for instance, Mr. M'Choakumchild was explaining to us about Natural
Prosperity.'

'National, I think it must have been,' observed Louisa.

'Yes, it was. - But isn't it the same?' she timidly asked.

'You had better say, National, as he said so,' returned Louisa,
with her dry reserve.

'National Prosperity. And he said, Now, this schoolroom is a
Nation. And in this nation, there are fifty millions of money.
Isn't this a prosperous nation? Girl number twenty, isn't this a
prosperous nation, and a'n't you in a thriving state?'

'What did you say?' asked Louisa.

'Miss Louisa, I said I didn't know. I thought I couldn't know
whether it was a prosperous nation or not, and whether I was in a
thriving state or not, unless I knew who had got the money, and
whether any of it was mine. But that had nothing to do with it.
It was not in the figures at all,' said Sissy, wiping her eyes.

(from Hard Times, Charles Dickens)

--

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest
of men will do the most wickedest of things for the greatest
good of everyone. - John Maynard Keynes

On Jun 13, 1:55*pm, Michel Boucher > wrote:
> Omelet > wrote in newsmpomelet-3E81AC.12200313062009
> @news-wc.giganews.com:
>
> >> Why not? *The support the violent and the amoral, the ambitious and the
> >> greedy...why stop there?
>
> > There is only so much tax money to go around.
> > EVERYBODY who is able bodied should work for a living.
> > No free ride.
>
> That's bullshit. *There IS enough money to go around, there are tons of
> people who are able-bodied and who don't work a day intheir life and you'd
> never think to complain about them, and the free ride/lunch idea has been
> applied to every sauce, but it initially meant that capitalists could not
> expect to get services for free simply because they had found a way to
> increase their already obscene wealth.
>
> Kill the rich, serve them hot with béarnaise and redistribute their wealth
> more equitably. *

Actually, I don't worry too much about wealth distribution. Sure, it
would
be hard on the first round of the wealthy, but pretty soon wealth
would
accumulate in a few hands, and we'd have exactly what we have now.
(Consider the attempts in the 20th Century to create various Worker's
Paradises. Just as stratified as capitalist societies, and a lot less
stuff
for everybody.)

Thus, it would be pointless and not worth doing.

I agree with Om. Every able-bodied (and able-minded) person should
work.
It's how self-esteem is created, it's how wealth is created (not by
spreading
it around like peanut butter--eventually you run out of peanut
butter).

Cindy Hamilton
celebrating 31 years of gainful employment

Michel Boucher wrote:

> You misunderstood the argument. Poverty aside, the argument that
> everyone must pull their weight is total crap. It isn't necessary. But
> if you start from there, the solution is a more equitable redistribution
> of wealth. Even Dickens knew THAT.

Sure, we can agree that people don't have to pull their own weight, but
that requires other people pull their own weight plus the weight of
others. If we lived in a society where everyone pulled their own weight
or at least pulled enough for themselves and their own family we would
not need social assistance programs. If we lived in a society where no
one pulled their own weight, we would not have anyone to pull for the
others.

A friend of mine told me the other day that he had been in his front
yard polishing his Mustang. A neighbour with five kids walked over and
said "It must be nice to be able to afford a car like that". My friend
said "You could too if you didn't have five kids."

It is unfortunate that poverty is often such an unfortunate cycle for
people and grow up with the attitude that there is no way to get ahead.
They stay home and have more children and the expense of raising
children and inability find work and affordable day care means that
their children will be stuck in poverty, and the cycle goes on.

Curiously, there are still people raised in poverty but have enough good
values instilled into them that they appreciate the value of hard work
and ambition and rise above it. From what I have seen, those values have
been more effective in lifting people out of poverty than handing out
endless welfare dollars.

"Michel Boucher" > wrote in message
...
> Lou Decruss > wrote in
> :
>
>> I do believe in control. I strive to control myself and I do what I
>> can to stop thieves like your kind from stealing what I've worked for.
>
> Thieves like my kind...I have stolen nothing from anyone. I pay my taxes
> and I don;t bitch about people who need assistance. I guess that makes me
> a thief.
>

You bet it does. Lou is an asshole.