Who knows Alice Waters?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Waters

6/14/2009 CBS 60 minutes

Is she for real or just for political show?

Andy
--
"I only know what I read. NOT what I'm talking about!"
--Andy

Andy wrote:
> Who knows Alice Waters?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Waters
>
> 6/14/2009 CBS 60 minutes
>
> Is she for real or just for political show?
>
> Andy


If she's NOT real, she's managed to last a very long time at it.

gloria p

"Andy" > wrote in message ...
> Who knows Alice Waters?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Waters
>
> 6/14/2009 CBS 60 minutes
>
> Is she for real or just for political show?


She's for real. My mother and sister attended a charity event she
co-catered and the food was incredible they said.

Paul

"Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
...
> Christine Dabney wrote:
>>
>> All that being said, she is in the middle of controversy now, as being
>> seen as pretentious, and out of touch with how "real" people eat.
>> Bourdain has been spouting off about this...and this issue has become
>> a hot button topic in the food world.
>
> This is the famous interview in which Bourdain mentions Waters.
>
> http://dcist.com/2009/01/chewing_the...y_bourdain.php
>
> "Alice Waters annoys the living shit out of me. We're all in the middle
> of a recession, like we're all going to start buying expensive organic
> food and running to the green market. There's something very Khmer Rouge
> about Alice Waters that has become unrealistic."

Like Bourdain can't afford it.

Paul

Christine Dabney wrote:
>
> All that being said, she is in the middle of controversy now, as being
> seen as pretentious, and out of touch with how "real" people eat.
> Bourdain has been spouting off about this...and this issue has become
> a hot button topic in the food world.

This is the famous interview in which Bourdain mentions Waters.

http://dcist.com/2009/01/chewing_the...y_bourdain.php

"Alice Waters annoys the living shit out of me. We're all in the middle
of a recession, like we're all going to start buying expensive organic
food and running to the green market. There's something very Khmer Rouge
about Alice Waters that has become unrealistic."

"Paul M. Cook" wrote:
>
> "Mark Thorson" > wrote in message
> >
> > This is the famous interview in which Bourdain mentions Waters.
> >
> > http://dcist.com/2009/01/chewing_the...y_bourdain.php
> >
> > "Alice Waters annoys the living shit out of me. We're all in the middle
> > of a recession, like we're all going to start buying expensive organic
> > food and running to the green market. There's something very Khmer Rouge
> > about Alice Waters that has become unrealistic."
>
> Like Bourdain can't afford it.

And here's a follow-up:

http://gothamist.com/2009/01/23/anth...ice_waters.php

On 6/14/09 6:29 PM, in article ,
"Christine Dabney" > wrote:

> All that being said, she is in the middle of controversy now, as being
> seen as pretentious, and out of touch with how "real" people eat.
> Bourdain has been spouting off about this...and this issue has become
> a hot button topic in the food world.

I'd love to try a meal of her's.

Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
on general principals.

If you want world-class food, you bypass her and hit
French Laundry a little further north. Three vs Zero
Michelin stars.

I'm actually surprised how much weight she's put
on eating organic. I'd estimate a good 240 lbs
underneath that full-body apron. She even had
trouble breathing moving around in the 60 minutes
interview if you look closely.

"RWW" > wrote in message ...
> On 6/14/09 6:29 PM, in article ,
> "Christine Dabney" > wrote:
>
>> All that being said, she is in the middle of controversy now, as being
>> seen as pretentious, and out of touch with how "real" people eat.
>> Bourdain has been spouting off about this...and this issue has become
>> a hot button topic in the food world.
>
> I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>
> Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
> of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
> on general principals.
>

lol

"RWW" > wrote in message ...
> On 6/14/09 6:29 PM, in article ,
> "Christine Dabney" > wrote:
>
>> All that being said, she is in the middle of controversy now, as being
>> seen as pretentious, and out of touch with how "real" people eat.
>> Bourdain has been spouting off about this...and this issue has become
>> a hot button topic in the food world.
>
> I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>
> Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
> of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
> on general principals.
>
> If you want world-class food, you bypass her and hit
> French Laundry a little further north. Three vs Zero
> Michelin stars.
>
> I'm actually surprised how much weight she's put
> on eating organic. I'd estimate a good 240 lbs
> underneath that full-body apron. She even had
> trouble breathing moving around in the 60 minutes
> interview if you look closely.
>
>
The People's Republic of Berkeley: simply one of the greatest places on
earth
Chez Panisse v. French Laundry: both are great; dinner for two at French
Laundry with wine and service is about $500; dinner for two at Chez Panisse
is slightly more than half that. We've been to 13 or so 3 star restaurants
in France, to Chez Panisse, and to the French Laundry. Of the California two
we'd choose "Chez Peculiar" always, particularly when you have to write a
check. At one point we were "in their book", and we could reserve upstairs.
Both are pretty expensive and beyond most of us, at least routinely.
http://chezpanisse.com/

BTW, in the SF Bay area, the "Chez Peculiar" alternative and favorite for us
has always been Michael Wild's "Bay Wolf". http://www.baywolf.com/ Michael
Wild has written a great cookbook, well worth looking at.

Bon appetite!

Ed

"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Andy" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Who knows Alice Waters?
>>
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Waters
>>
>> 6/14/2009 CBS 60 minutes
>>
>> Is she for real or just for political show?
>
>
> She's for real. My mother and sister attended a charity event she
> co-catered and the food was incredible they said.
>
> Paul
>
Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in some
fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great raw
ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that wasn't
there before.

Ed

"Theron" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Andy" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Who knows Alice Waters?
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Waters
>>>
>>> 6/14/2009 CBS 60 minutes
>>>
>>> Is she for real or just for political show?
>>
>>
>> She's for real. My mother and sister attended a charity event she
>> co-catered and the food was incredible they said.
>>
>> Paul
>>
> Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
> Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in
> some fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great
> raw ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that
> wasn't there before.
>
> Ed
>
>
If that involves putting lettuce or pineapple on pizza, you can keep your
'California Cuisine'.

Christine Dabney said...

> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 19:14:25 -0700, Mark Thorson >
> wrote:
>
>>"Paul M. Cook" wrote:
>
>>And here's a follow-up:
>>
>>http://gothamist.com/2009/01/23/anth...ice_waters.php
>
> And even more followup:
> http://www.eatmedaily.com/2009/05/an...ters-and-duff-
> goldman-at-the-food-for-thought-forum/
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-falnvgzUk
>
> Christine


Geez... I just woke up and that just about put me back to sleep.

Bookmarked for when I need a lullabye.

Thanks,

Andy
--
"I only know what I read. NOT what I'm talking about!"
--Andy

Christine Dabney > writes:

> I totallly agree with your assessment of Berkeley. For people to pass
> it by just on general principle, means they are missing some fantastic
> food, food events, farmers markets, AND restaurants.

Agreed, Chris. I'm pretty conservative, yet I think Berkeley is a
hoot. Couldn't care less about its politics. It's ALL about food.
Some of the best food I've ever eaten was in Berkeley. I'd shop there
for stuff not to be found anywhere else in the SFBA, clear back to the
Co-op days. OTOH, It's still a mystery to me how I missed Berkeley
Bowl all those years.

As for Alice and Chez Panisse, never had the pleasure of eating there.
Say what you will about her, for better or worse, she did remake the
culinary landscape. Also, when you see comments about her originating
CA cuisine (CC), it's usually, "often credited". I've read several
articles about other CA chef/restos who may have been more
instrumental in pionering CC, though I will agree Alice pretty much
made it a household phrase.

The Bourdain/Waters Wars? So much fluff. Though I like Tony and
agree with a lot of his views (after I started listening), he still
likes to hear himself talk and get a rise out of ppl and is not above
lying to do so. Wrote the book for his fry cook, my ass. Waters?
She lives in her own fantasy of shaded boulevards and weedless organic
gardens where everyone has wads of cash to obtain the finer things in
life. So be it. She sure can cook! IOW, two people with different
views, not unlike people, here. Bottom line: makes good press.

nb

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700, "Theron" >
wrote:

>Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
>Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in some
>fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great raw
>ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that wasn't
>there before.

Even though she put California cuisine on the map in restaurants, she
didn't create it. She sensed a culinary trend and ran with it.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:09:26 -0400, "Kswck" >
wrote:

>If that involves putting lettuce or pineapple on pizza, you can keep your
>'California Cuisine'.

I think you're getting California Kitchen and California cuisine mixed
up.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

sf wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:09:26 -0400, "Kswck" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>If that involves putting lettuce or pineapple on pizza, you can keep your
>>'California Cuisine'.
>
>
> I think you're getting California Kitchen and California cuisine mixed
> up.
>

Actually, the "new age" pizza thing was part of the California
Cuisine movement. You can thank Wolfgang Puck for that.

Like you said, Alice Waters was part of it, but she didn't invent it.
Her main focus was using locally produced and grown products in innovative
ways, but there's more it than that.

RegForte > wrote:

>Actually, the "new age" pizza thing was part of the California
>Cuisine movement. You can thank Wolfgang Puck for that.

>Like you said, Alice Waters was part of it, but she didn't invent it.
>Her main focus was using locally produced and grown products in innovative
>ways, but there's more it than that.

I'm not sure you can credit Puck with California-style pizzas.
I do not think he did pizzas until Spago opened in the early
80's, and Chez Panisse was already specializing in pizzas for
many years before that.

Speaking of which there's a new pizza contended in San Francisco
called "Flour and Water", but I have not been there yet.

Steve

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700, "Theron" >
> wrote:
>
>>Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
>>Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in
>>some
>>fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great raw
>>ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that wasn't
>>there before.
>
> Even though she put California cuisine on the map in restaurants, she
> didn't create it. She sensed a culinary trend and ran with it.
>
> --
> I love cooking with wine.
> Sometimes I even put it in the food.

She created it. There wasn't a trend before.

Ed

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:34:01 -0700, "Theron" >
wrote:

>
>"sf" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700, "Theron" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
>>>Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in
>>>some
>>>fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great raw
>>>ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that wasn't
>>>there before.
>>
>> Even though she put California cuisine on the map in restaurants, she
>> didn't create it. She sensed a culinary trend and ran with it.
>>
>> --
>> I love cooking with wine.
>> Sometimes I even put it in the food.
>
>She created it. There wasn't a trend before.
>
Where did you get that information?

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

"Theron" > writes:


> She created it. There wasn't a trend before.

She may have created the trend, but there's plenty of controversy over
her creating the original concept. I've read several articles
alleging to tell the true story of CC origins. Here's one:

http://www.saveur.com/article/Saveur...fornia-Cuisine

nb

"Steve Pope" > wrote in message
...
> RegForte > wrote:
>
>>Actually, the "new age" pizza thing was part of the California
>>Cuisine movement. You can thank Wolfgang Puck for that.
>
>>Like you said, Alice Waters was part of it, but she didn't invent it.
>>Her main focus was using locally produced and grown products in innovative
>>ways, but there's more it than that.
>
> I'm not sure you can credit Puck with California-style pizzas.
> I do not think he did pizzas until Spago opened in the early
> 80's, and Chez Panisse was already specializing in pizzas for
> many years before that.
>
> Speaking of which there's a new pizza contended in San Francisco
> called "Flour and Water", but I have not been there yet.
>
> Steve
>
>
Alice Water's pizza preceded Wolfgang Puck's. When Alice started Chez
Panisse and her pizza, Wolfgang was a chef at Ma Maison.

Ed

Theron wrote:

> "Steve Pope" > wrote in message
> ...

>>I'm not sure you can credit Puck with California-style pizzas.
>>I do not think he did pizzas until Spago opened in the early
>>80's, and Chez Panisse was already specializing in pizzas for
>>many years before that.
>>
>>Speaking of which there's a new pizza contended in San Francisco
>>called "Flour and Water", but I have not been there yet.
>>
>>Steve
>>
>
> Alice Water's pizza preceded Wolfgang Puck's. When Alice started Chez
> Panisse and her pizza, Wolfgang was a chef at Ma Maison.
>



And herein lies the essence of "California-Style Pizza" and it's
definition.

Is it simply pizza with goat cheese, a la Alice Waters? I've been
going to Chez Panisse since the early 80's and that's what she
was serving at the time.

Or is it the much more elaborate combinations that started at
Spago, such as smoked duck pizza, the asian fusion pizzas, white
pizzas, etc.

I'm in the latter camp.

cybercat wrote:
> "RWW" > wrote in message ...
>
>>On 6/14/09 6:29 PM, in article ,
>>"Christine Dabney" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>All that being said, she is in the middle of controversy now, as being
>>>seen as pretentious, and out of touch with how "real" people eat.
>>>Bourdain has been spouting off about this...and this issue has become
>>>a hot button topic in the food world.
>>
>>I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>>
>>Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
>>of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
>>on general principals.
>>
>
>
> lol
>

Pity, she makes a great bouillabaisse. Builds a fire on the patio and,
so im told, is not above slipping a bit of charcoal form the wood fire
under her cauldron into the stew.
--
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://www.dancingmice.net/Karn%20Evil%209.mp3

Christine Dabney wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jun 2009 23:43:41 -0700, "Theron" >
> wrote:
>
>
>
>> The People's Republic of Berkeley: simply one of the greatest places on
>>earth

Even Telegraph ave. just south of the UC campus is making a come back.
--
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://www.dancingmice.net/Karn%20Evil%209.mp3

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:50:09 -0700, RegForte > wrote:

>Theron wrote:
>
>> "Steve Pope" > wrote in message
>> ...
>
>>>I'm not sure you can credit Puck with California-style pizzas.
>>>I do not think he did pizzas until Spago opened in the early
>>>80's, and Chez Panisse was already specializing in pizzas for
>>>many years before that.
>>>
>>>Speaking of which there's a new pizza contended in San Francisco
>>>called "Flour and Water", but I have not been there yet.
>>>
>>>Steve
>>>
>>
>> Alice Water's pizza preceded Wolfgang Puck's. When Alice started Chez
>> Panisse and her pizza, Wolfgang was a chef at Ma Maison.
>>
>
>
>
>And herein lies the essence of "California-Style Pizza" and it's
>definition.
>
>Is it simply pizza with goat cheese, a la Alice Waters? I've been
>going to Chez Panisse since the early 80's and that's what she
>was serving at the time.
>
>Or is it the much more elaborate combinations that started at
>Spago, such as smoked duck pizza, the asian fusion pizzas, white
>pizzas, etc.
>
>I'm in the latter camp.
>
>
I like my pizza kept simple, so I that puts me in the former camp.

--
I love cooking with wine.
Sometimes I even put it in the food.

Theron > wrote:

>"Steve Pope" > wrote in message

>> I'm not sure you can credit Puck with California-style pizzas.
>> I do not think he did pizzas until Spago opened in the early
>> 80's, and Chez Panisse was already specializing in pizzas for
>> many years before that.

>Alice Water's pizza preceded Wolfgang Puck's.

Yes, that would be my guess.

>When Alice started Chez
>Panisse and her pizza, Wolfgang was a chef at Ma Maison.

Which was pretty strictly French, by my understanding; but
I never ate there. Perhaps he did the French version of
a pizza, the (I'm sure I'm mispelling this) ****alediere.
In any case CP started the rediscovery of woodburning pizza
in California.

Steve

RegForte wrote:

> And herein lies the essence of "California-Style Pizza" and it's
> definition.
>
> Is it simply pizza with goat cheese, a la Alice Waters? I've been
> going to Chez Panisse since the early 80's and that's what she
> was serving at the time.
>
> Or is it the much more elaborate combinations that started at
> Spago, such as smoked duck pizza, the asian fusion pizzas, white
> pizzas, etc.

I thought it was fresh mushrooms, fresh garlic, spinach, and bean sprouts
or any combination of stuff like that.

The stuff they are calling California Style pizza in other parts of the
country is just pizza with any of the above. California used to be the
only place you'd find fresh mushrooms on Pizza - back in the early 80's
even (and probably before that).

-sw

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:34:01 -0700, "Theron" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"sf" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700, "Theron" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
>>>>Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in
>>>>some
>>>>fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great raw
>>>>ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that
>>>>wasn't
>>>>there before.
>>>
>>> Even though she put California cuisine on the map in restaurants, she
>>> didn't create it. She sensed a culinary trend and ran with it.
>>>
>>> --
>>> I love cooking with wine.
>>> Sometimes I even put it in the food.
>>
>>She created it. There wasn't a trend before.
>>
> Where did you get that information?
>
> --

We were here well before Chez Panisse. There wasn't anything that could be
called California Cuisine.

"Theron" > writes:


> We were here well before Chez Panisse. There wasn't anything that could be
> called California Cuisine.


You better check yourself!

California Firsts:

The Hot Fudge Sundae
(C. C. Brown's, Hollywood, 1906)

Crab Louis
(Solari's, San Francisco, c. 1914)

The Chili Dog
(Art Elkinal's pushcart, Inglewood, 1935)

Rumaki
(Don the Beachcomber's, Hollywood, 1930s)

Cobb Salad
(Brown Derby, Los Angeles, 1926)

The "Doggie Bag
(Lawry's The Prime Rib, Los Angeles, 1938)

The Mai Tai
(Trader Vic's, Oakland, 1944)

Irish Coffee
(Buena Vista Cafe, San Francisco, 1952)

Ranch Dressing
(Hidden Valley Ranch, Santa Barbara, 1950s)

The Harvey Wallbanger (Pancho's Bar, Manhattan Beach, late 1960s)

Hangtown Fry
cioppino
SF sourdough bread
Pismo clams
Green Goddess dressing
French Dip sandwich
Fortune Cookies
pan fried abalone


Sorry, but you do not pre-date California cuisine.

nb

Christine Dabney > writes:


> Those don't fit the definition of California "cuisine"......

cui·sine (kw?-z?n')

2. Food; fare.




nb

On 6/15/09 11:58 AM, in article , "Mr. Joseph
Littleshoes Esq." > wrote:

>> "RWW" > wrote in message ...

>>> I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
>>> of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
>>> on general principals.

> Pity, she makes a great bouillabaisse. Builds a fire on the patio and,
> so im told, is not above slipping a bit of charcoal form the wood fire
> under her cauldron into the stew.
> --
> Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Bully!!! I'll eat anything that Alice boils or toils on her
cauldron.

I just won't venture into Berkeley. Similar to people who
wouldn't do business in South Africa.

Lovely place, and all, but it's a matter of human rights
that they are not to be dealt with.

Berkeley ranks below Cuba in:
a) Devotion to human rights
b) Tolerance of opinion
c) Tourism potential

--
Dr. Lookihavea Hugh G. Johnson

RWW wrote:
> On 6/15/09 11:58 AM, in article , "Mr. Joseph
> Littleshoes Esq."wrote:
>
>
>>>"RWW" wrote in message ...
>>
>
>>>>I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>>>>
>>>>Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
>>>>of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
>>>>on general principals.
>>>
>
>>Pity, she makes a great bouillabaisse. Builds a fire on the patio and,
>>so im told, is not above slipping a bit of charcoal form the wood fire
>>under her cauldron into the stew.
>>--
>>Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
>
>
> Bully!!! I'll eat anything that Alice boils or toils on her
> cauldron.
>
> I just won't venture into Berkeley. Similar to people who
> wouldn't do business in South Africa.
>
> Lovely place, and all, but it's a matter of human rights
> that they are not to be dealt with.
>
> Berkeley ranks below Cuba in:
> a) Devotion to human rights
> b) Tolerance of opinion
> c) Tourism potential
>
> --
> Dr. Lookihavea Hugh G. Johnson
>


Well now your just being even sillier than previously Mr. Johnson.
--
Swami Havnagoodtime Vishnuwerehere

Hairy Bowl!
http://www.dancingmice.net/Karn%20Evil%209.mp3

Theron wrote:
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:34:01 -0700, "Theron" >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"sf" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:23:44 -0700, "Theron" >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Not just for real. She's a phenomenal individual who created "California
>>>>>Cuisine". She created a food standard and a cuisine that is emulated in
>>>>>some
>>>>>fashion by hundreds of California restaurants. California has great raw
>>>>>ingredients. She taught us all how to make that work in a way that
>>>>>wasn't
>>>>>there before.
>>>>
>>>>Even though she put California cuisine on the map in restaurants, she
>>>>didn't create it. She sensed a culinary trend and ran with it.
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>I love cooking with wine.
>>>>Sometimes I even put it in the food.
>>>
>>>She created it. There wasn't a trend before.
>>>
>>
>>Where did you get that information?
>>
>>--
>
>
> We were here well before Chez Panisse. There wasn't anything that could be
> called California Cuisine.
>

Strictly speaking any statement will contain its own contradiction. But
in this case it depends on how one defines "California Cuisine" or
perhaps even, and merely, "cuisine."

Even back in the 1940's & 1950's California had a reputation for being a
kind of Mecca for "health food nuts" people wanting the sun and a
healthy diet and life style and even the Hippy's in the 60's had enough
of an impact to associate California with a certain cuisine that was
actually better than its more broad, and disparaging reputation.

Then of course the 70's & 80's came along and some of those hippies got
jobs and started families and improved their already good diet, with the
result of a middle class renaissance in food. Nouvelle & fusion being a
result. The whole American reawakening to good whole foods is, i think,
IS more a product of California than any lack of California having any
influence in the matter. California often leads by a decade or more the
rest of the country in life style issues.

Unfortunately were talking about a primarily middle class phenomena, the
wealthy have always been able to afford to eat well, if they choose to
do so.

The poor, especially in america often have been able to eat well but a
lack of nutritional education amongst the lower income groups can lead
to starvation and malnutrition amongst an almost embarrassing plenty.

Especially now days in urban blight areas of low income housing, often
times not only is information about nutrition lacking in general but
there is no convenient access to the good fresh food. What is available
is all processed and packaged and what 'fresh' vegetable there are are
routinely old and wilted.

I know of people that have pulled themselves out of poverty, can afford
to shop at the best stores but choose to purchase certain old vegetables
at shops in the 'hood, not just to patronize the local struggling
merchant, but there is, i am told, a quality to the less than fresh
veggies, that one can actually be nostalgic for if one grew up eating them.

Another area i shop in though, an ethnic market area i routinely shop
in, quite large, Asian, demands and gets only the freshest fruits,
veggies, meats granted its not certified organic but for what's
available for a relatively impoverished community, that demands a low
price, and gets it, well ..... even in that area there are places where
older produce sells for even less.

I don't really worry about saving 20 cents on day old broccoli, i will
pay the 50 cents per pound for fresh, but take my word for it, they sell
a lot of older broccoli for 20 - 30 cents a pound, same with just about
any veggie. Ignorance & lack of access does not fuel that, poverty does.

I saw some over ripe mangos for 25 cents each to day, and thought about
making mango ice cream but if i was going to go to the trouble of making
ice cream i would just as soon make a chocolate pudding and serve my
cream whipped and sometimes i will buy a box of over ripe bananas for a
dollar, but that's only if im planning on making something with them.
Not to save 50 cents.

Enjoying life, which food is a big part of, has always been part of the
California life style. Its always been more Dionysian than the more
Apollonian east coast.

Alice Waters has an unfortunate and undeserved reputation for elitism
she spends a lot of time promoting and helping to set up and encourage
local 'community gardens' in isolated low income neighborhoods she has
established a thriving vocational training program (and having a
certificate signed by Alice Waters does count) for disadvantaged youth,
tirelessly promotes nutritional awareness and knowledge amongst the
urban poor and in general is considered a credit to her community and
profession.
--
Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.

Domine, dirige nos.
Let the games begin!
http://www.dancingmice.net/Karn%20Evil%209.mp3

"Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq." > writes:

>
> Even back in the 1940's & 1950's California had a reputation for being
> a kind of Mecca for "health food nuts" people wanting the sun and a
> healthy diet......

Exactly. I notice EVERYONE who puts Alice on a pedestal chose to
completely ignore, or at least not acknowledge, the reference I posted
from Saveur magazine about the Ranch House.

I have nothing against AW and have no doubt she was the catalyst that
made CC World famous. I also have no doubt she an excellent chef
having seen her and her acolytes in action over the years (Anyone
remember Garlic Is As Good As Ten Mothers?). Jeremiah Tower once had
a cooking show on PBS. Great chefs all, but I take exception to the
whole CC nonsense.

> Unfortunately were talking about a primarily middle class phenomena,
> the wealthy have always been able to afford to eat well, if they
> choose to do so.

Nothing wrong with that, but to hijack a whole style of cooking and
say we --and our mescalune messiah-- own this style of cooking, is
ludicrous.

What is "California Cuisine" (CD: note the quoate around both words)?
Is it local produce? Alice's menu says, "All our produce, meat,
poultry, and fish come from farms, ranches, and fisheries guided by
principles of sustainability." And....?

In 1892, all food came from farms, ranches, and fisheries and it was
all sustainable. What? You think farmers said, "We'll grow radishes
this year, but next year we're putting in a Wells Fargo coach stop!"?
You think she gets her garlic from a victory garden across the street?
Nonsense. She gets it from Gilroy like everyone else. There's no
sustainable fishery in the Bay. You gotta go up/down the coast and
those are dying, too.

Is CC about fusion. Don't even go there. To say AW invented fusion
cooking is just plain retarded. CA cooking has been about fusion
since the first Boston whalers landed on the shores of Alta
California. We've been hard at it ever since.

Is CC about fresh? I was eating "fresh" on a little ranch in Oakdale
in 1956. Eggs from the hen house. Chickens beheaded 15 ft from the
kitchen door. Fruit and nut trees were the standard landscaping of
the yard. Yes, there were farmer's markets in pre-CC Oakdale. Fresh
fish from the Stanislaus River, 75 yards away. Beef butchered in the
pasture and fresh calves liver on the dinner plate 45 mins after the
steer got a .22 bullet to its brain. Show me CP getting food fresher
than that.

Did Alice promote more organic farming and boutique foodstuffs. Yes.
Absolutely. Would it have occured without her? I have no doubt.
Hippies pre-dated AW in getting back to the land (remember communes?)
and going back to raising food and baking homemade bread, etc. You
think they all waited for Alice to drop the flag? When I lived in OR
in '74-75, I was astonished to discover almost every other house,
whether in town or out in the country, had a serious vegetable garden
in the back yard. Most of 'em never heard of Alice Waters.

Near as I can tell, the only thing that distinguishes "CC" is high
prices and pretentiousness. I've read one of the defining factors of
CC is presentation, the trend to stack vertically. Wow. Now there's
a culinary breakthrough. Can Alice stack soup?

So, fine. The well-off have discovered fresh food --stacked
vertically, mind you-- and Alice is your savior. You can lay claim to
your Collie-fourn-ya Kwi-zeen and bow to the esteemed Alice. Knock
yourself out. Who am I to steal your fantasy.

nb

On Jun 15, 5:50*pm, Sqwertz > wrote:

> The stuff they are calling California Style pizza in other parts of the
> country is just pizza with any of the above. *California used to be the
> only place you'd find fresh mushrooms on Pizza - back in the early 80's
> even (and probably before that).

Actually before Domino's went national, they were a pretty good local
pizza chain here in Ann Arbor. They had fresh mushrooms back in the
early 80s (which was when I first started paying attention to that
sort
of thing).

Now, I'd rather eat the box--but somebody would have to pay for it
because I won't sent Tom Monaghan any of my money.

Cindy Hamilton

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:21:37 -0600, wrote:

> Christine Dabney > writes:
>
>> Those don't fit the definition of California "cuisine"......
>
> cui·sine (kw?-z?n')
>
> 2. Food; fare.
>
> nb

gosh, you're right. waters did not invent the eating of food in
california.

blake

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:43:50 -0700, RWW wrote:

> On 6/15/09 11:58 AM, in article , "Mr. Joseph
> Littleshoes Esq." > wrote:
>
>>> "RWW" > wrote in message ...
>
>>>> I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
>>>> of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
>>>> on general principals.
>
>> Pity, she makes a great bouillabaisse. Builds a fire on the patio and,
>> so im told, is not above slipping a bit of charcoal form the wood fire
>> under her cauldron into the stew.
>> --
>> Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
>
> Bully!!! I'll eat anything that Alice boils or toils on her
> cauldron.
>
> I just won't venture into Berkeley. Similar to people who
> wouldn't do business in South Africa.
>
> Lovely place, and all, but it's a matter of human rights
> that they are not to be dealt with.
>
> Berkeley ranks below Cuba in:
> a) Devotion to human rights
> b) Tolerance of opinion
> c) Tourism potential

oooh, scary!! i bet they throw right-wingers in jail and torture them!!!
no lawyers for you, bucko!!!

blake

blake murphy wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 22:43:50 -0700, RWW wrote:
>
>> On 6/15/09 11:58 AM, in article , "Mr. Joseph
>> Littleshoes Esq." > wrote:
>>
>>>> "RWW" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>
>>>>> I'd love to try a meal of her's.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, she has hunkered down in the People's Republic
>>>>> of Berkeley. I don't drive within 40 miles of that cesspool
>>>>> on general principals.
>>
>>> Pity, she makes a great bouillabaisse. Builds a fire on the patio
>>> and, so im told, is not above slipping a bit of charcoal form the
>>> wood fire under her cauldron into the stew.
>>> --
>>> Mr. Joseph Littleshoes Esq.
>>
>> Bully!!! I'll eat anything that Alice boils or toils on her
>> cauldron.
>>
>> I just won't venture into Berkeley. Similar to people who
>> wouldn't do business in South Africa.
>>
>> Lovely place, and all, but it's a matter of human rights
>> that they are not to be dealt with.
>>
>> Berkeley ranks below Cuba in:
>> a) Devotion to human rights
>> b) Tolerance of opinion
>> c) Tourism potential
>
> oooh, scary!! i bet they throw right-wingers in jail and torture
> them!!! no lawyers for you, bucko!!!


No, but all visitors have to endure dirty hippys and "street people" aka
homeless panhandlers. Plus all those nutty "resolutions" passed by the city
council, etc. Yeah, if there's ever a nuklear war I know Berkeley won't
suffer any "fallout" because it's a "nuclear-free" zone, lol...

Silly ****in' leftists, they live in a dream world...

It'd be fun to go visit there, wearing my Ronald Reagan "Air Force One"
windbreaker...

<chuckle>


--
Best
Greg

"Gregory Morrow" > writes:


> It'd be fun to go visit there, wearing my Ronald Reagan "Air Force One"
> windbreaker...

You wouldn't get a passing glance.

Don Martinich > writes:

Ah, the Nut Tree. Occasional home to Horatio Q. Birdbath.

> named) was starting. The one time I ate downstairs, the menu was a salad
> Nicoise, broiled lamb kidneys in a Bearnaise sauce, and a saddle of lamb
> with pommes frites. Hardly fusion. Dinners upstairs were quite Italian.

OMG! Yer maligning the myth, Don.

> necessarily the 'first'. As for using fresh local ingredients, any
> quality restaurant in SF had been doing that since the mid 1850's.

DOH! Another fairy tale shattered.

> One restaurant that preceeded Chez Panisse in innovative cooking with
> quality ingredients and a great wine cellar was the Potluck on San Pablo
> Ave which was run by Hank Rubin and Narsai David. They opened in 1959

You cad! You bounder! How dast you pillage and plunder the fantasy
that is California Cuisine? A pox of frozen tv dinners on you.

nb